Entitlement Culture killing the will to work in Ireland

hansfrei

Its socialist countries tht do best OP. America shouldn't be looked up to for any reason, the place is b0lloxed and going backwards.

sarumite

hansfrei wrote: »

Its socialist countries tht do best OP. America shouldn't be looked up to for any reason, the place is b0lloxed and going backwards.

Have you lived in either a socialist country or America? I have lived in both the US and Sweden and I wouldn't agree with you.

golfwallah

hansfrei wrote: »

Its socialist countries tht do best OP. America shouldn't be looked up to for any reason, the place is b0lloxed and going backwards.

Oh yeah - just like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgh6wivCerE

golfwallah, you are doing what a lot of people do on this fourm do, namely you have a entrenched view/ belief and your is, if I am reading you correctly... yours is that in Ireland in 2013 there is a vast amount of people on social welfare with a sence of entitlement living comfortable lives and they are too lazy/comfortable off to work. Now instead of examining the evidence for this you present recycled article from actors, windbag business men, You Tube, and anecdotes as you evidence for this. In other words you have a position and you look for others to agree with you, and disregard any evidence that doesn't fit your world view.

As I have said many time in this forum I have worked all my life and pay a huge amount of tax, plus my husband has worked all his life, my first husband has worked all his life, my children work, my family work/worked all their lives, yes there are problem in the system, but guess what their are problems in every system even the workhouse.

What exactly do you want done?

Fussgangerzone

Is OP asking should we ban social welfare scams? Thought we'd done that already.

Every country in the world has a few useless people, it's a sad fact of life. If you made the dole 20 quid a week, they'd sit in eating bread and butter before they went looking for work.

The serious problem we have is the job shortage, and a lot of work is being done to try and address it.

There is one situation where our social welfare system can put people off getting work, and that's how coming off it to start working goes.

In the past, maybe it's been improved since, I've seen friends who were on welfare go two months without income because they got a month of work. After that, they felt their options were to either refuse short term employment (not great, due to their industry) or get paid under the table (inethical and risky).

I know one person, a graduate, who was on the welfare and got work analysing studies for a university. It was three months of work, he was glad to get to get off the welfare for that long. Combine that with a back month, and what did he get? A weeks wage to last him two months. He did his next job under the table.

We need to support jobseekers better.

As for the tiny minority who don't want to work, you're deluding yourself if you think there's a solution to that. Put it this way: would you employ someone you knew was a lazy sod?

Idbatterim

@ mariaalice. I want benefits linked to your contributions and subsistence, or total cutting off of the wasters, like in germany... a very simple and fair system!

golfwallah

mariaalice wrote: »

golfwallah, you are doing what a lot of people do on this fourm do, namely you have a entrenched view/ belief and your is, if I am reading you correctly... yours is that in Ireland in 2013 there is a vast amount of people on social welfare with a sence of entitlement living comfortable lives and they are too lazy/comfortable off to work. Now instead of examining the evidence for this you present recycled article from actors, windbag business men, You Tube, and anecdotes as you evidence for this. In other words you have a position and you look for others to agree with you, and disregard any evidence that doesn't fit your world view.

As I have said many time in this forum I have worked all my life and pay a huge amount of tax, plus my husband has worked all his life, my first husband has worked all his life, my children work, my family work/worked all their lives, yes there are problem in the system, but guess what their are problems in every system even the workhouse.

What exactly do you want done?

It’s easy to accuse someone of having an entrenched view, when their view does not correspond with your own. I too have worked all my life. I emigrated to gain a professional qualification / experience and returned to work here. I have a family and moved within Ireland for work reasons and constantly had to adapt to changing job conditions – but I’ve never been unemployed or claimed welfare from the state. For years I have done voluntary work in the community and continue to do so for people, who fall on hard times and are unable to house themselves.

But that is really not the point. Certainly there are deserving cases on welfare and we do need a safety net for those whom have just lost their jobs. But there are also many others who have given up .... not always entirely because of their own fault, but very often because government systems, processes and staff make it too easy to earn a living by not working (examples of this have been posted on this thread).

What I object to is having an increasing proportion of my income expropriated by government for day to day spending, at the expense of investment in future wealth creation for all (e.g. alternative energy, energy saving, metro north, broadband, new enterprise support, etc.). A large part of current government spending is on welfare and this is not making a significant impact on unemployment. People are unemployed because their skill sets are no longer required in a rapidly changing market place. There is truth in the old adage “Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime”.

The best way to reduce unemployment is by ensuring our education and training systems are focused on market demand and by incentivising the unemployed to either retrain or take up alternative forms of work. There are models out there (in Finland and Germany, for instance). The argument that there are no jobs out there, does not hold water – it’s just that many of these jobs are less rewarding financially than staying on welfare.

As for how this can be done, you only have to look at the welfare systems in the UK (new welfare cap) and Germany (welfare payments limited). It’s not rocket science, but does require courage, leadership and political will to make it happen.

Quite a bit of statistical evidence has been presented very early on in this thread, so I don’t propose to re-hash this old ground.

golfwallah

golfwallah wrote: »

It’s easy to accuse someone of having an entrenched view, when their view does not correspond with your own. I too have worked all my life. I emigrated to gain a professional qualification / experience and returned to work here. I have a family and moved within Ireland for work reasons and constantly had to adapt to changing job conditions – but I’ve never been unemployed or claimed welfare from the state. For years I have done voluntary work in the community and continue to do so for people, who fall on hard times and are unable to house themselves.

But that is really not the point. Certainly there are deserving cases on welfare and we do need a safety net for those whom have just lost their jobs. But there are also many others who have given up .... not always entirely because of their own fault, but very often because government systems, processes and staff make it too easy to earn a living by not working (examples of this have been posted on this thread).

What I object to is having an increasing proportion of my income expropriated by government for day to day spending, at the expense of investment in future wealth creation for all (e.g. alternative energy, energy saving, metro north, broadband, new enterprise support, etc.). A large part of current government spending is on welfare and this is not making a significant impact on unemployment. People are unemployed because their skill sets are no longer required in a rapidly changing market place. There is truth in the old adage “Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime”.

The best way to reduce unemployment is by ensuring our education and training systems are focused on market demand and by incentivising the unemployed to either retrain or take up alternative forms of work. There are models out there (in Finland and Germany, for instance). The argument that there are no jobs out there, does not hold water – it’s just that many of these jobs are less rewarding financially than staying on welfare.

As for how this can be done, you only have to look at the welfare systems in the UK (new welfare cap) and Germany (welfare payments limited). It’s not rocket science, but does require courage, leadership and political will to make it happen.

Quite a bit of statistical evidence has been presented very early on in this thread, so I don’t propose to re-hash this old ground.

That's a very reasonable post and I agree with lots of it, however it is very different in TONE to a lot of you other posts.

yoloc

Havent been in his forum in awhile but i see everyone still crying about getting shafted here and tgere. Let me let you in on a wee secret you might not know. You are going to be shafted from all angles untill they day you die. Sad but true so sit back and enjoy folks.

Farmer Pudsey

yoloc wrote: »

Havent been in his forum in awhile but i see everyone still crying about getting shafted here and tgere. Let me let you in on a wee secret you might not know. You are going to be shafted from all angles untill they day you die. Sad but true so sit back and enjoy folks.

God what an insightfull and useful contribution

Niall Keane

Just watching the news...

According to some international report it Seems Ireland is the place to base your business, why?

THEY say:

Wages have fallen 17% since boom

Our Low Corporate tax

****High unemployment creates a "captive" workforce.****

So EXACTLY as i surmised and as Chomsky has written about extensively! Unemployment is desired by multinationals - it makes Ireland "competitive" in their eyes.

I see pharmacy sector is dumping Ireland big time - another multinational industry to add to the list that have came and shafted their Irish workforce - usually when they are too old to begin a new career. But sure we have job-bridge for the middle aged specialists with doctorate degrees to help them train how to stack shelves in warehouses.

Does the neoliberal brigade on here ever tire of always being wrong and always lying?

Yea, yea, yea, le bla bla habitual!!! Its "entitlement culture" allright thats the problem! Wake up!

Godge

Niall Keane wrote: »

Just watching the news...

According to some international report it Seems Ireland is the place to base your business, why?

THEY say:

Wages have fallen 17% since boom

Our Low Corporate tax

****High unemployment creates a "captive" workforce.****

So EXACTLY as i surmised and as Chomsky has written about extensively! Unemployment is desired by multinationals - it makes Ireland "competitive" in their eyes.

I see pharmacy sector is dumping Ireland big time - another multinational industry to add to the list that have came and shafted their Irish workforce - usually when they are too old to begin a new career. But sure we have job-bridge for the middle aged specialists with doctorate degrees to help them train how to stack shelves in warehouses.

Does the neoliberal brigade on here ever tire of always being wrong and always lying?

Yea, yea, yea, le bla bla habitual!!! Its "entitlement culture" allright thats the problem! Wake up!

Yes, let's all head for a socialist paradise:

"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money [to spend]"

Silentcorner

Niall Keane wrote: »

Just watching the news...

According to some international report it Seems Ireland is the place to base your business, why?

THEY say:

Wages have fallen 17% since boom

Our Low Corporate tax

****High unemployment creates a "captive" workforce.****

So EXACTLY as i surmised and as Chomsky has written about extensively! Unemployment is desired by multinationals - it makes Ireland "competitive" in their eyes.

I see pharmacy sector is dumping Ireland big time - another multinational industry to add to the list that have came and shafted their Irish workforce - usually when they are too old to begin a new career. But sure we have job-bridge for the middle aged specialists with doctorate degrees to help them train how to stack shelves in warehouses.

Does the neoliberal brigade on here ever tire of always being wrong and always lying?

Yea, yea, yea, le bla bla habitual!!! Its "entitlement culture" allright thats the problem! Wake up!

Not sure what you're point is, it would cost a business (any business multinational or otherwise) a lot less to start up/or transfer operations to Ireland right now, possible by as much as a third, which now makes the proposition viable, people who don't work increase their chances of finding work...and with it a standard of living...let us not forget that the multinational sector has provided a good living for a lot of people, in fact, in a lot of these companies employees earnings have remained very stable over the last five years, when compared to SMEs.

The problem as I see is allowing people not to work despite no shortage of opportunities which is what happened heretofore, which is why we have the highest rate of jobless households in Europe...that is where our social problems begin in my opinion.

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1025317.shtml

skafish

Silentcorner wrote: »

The problem as I see is allowing people not to work despite no shortage of opportunities which is what happened heretofore, which is why we have the highest rate of jobless households in Europe...that is where our social problems begin in my opinion.

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1025317.shtml

I agree with your point re the fact that people are encouraged to not to work. There was a thread a couple of weeks back about the number of jobless households.

Un fortunatley, this is not a popular topic on boards.....

ressem

Providing better quality advice on careers would help so young people know where the jobs market might be under and overcrowded, rather than relying on anecdote, media buzz, and the small cross-section of employment interviews that one attends.

E.g which of the 140 subsets of IT are in growth, and plausible starting points for a jobseeker, and which are dead ends.
Wouldn't it be great to have a situation where a group of employers would stop whining about shortages, and simply say "pass course/online filtering test X and you will be qualified to interview for our upcoming roles in Y" with less of the HR BS forming an obstacle.

A version of the CSO unemployment and employment that provides a more detailed breakdown of job roles and range of income levels than...

Table 6 Persons on the Live Register classified by last held occupation
|November 2012|October 2013|November 2013|Monthly change|Annual change|Under 25 years|25 years & over
Broad occupational group
| | | | | | |
All Persons| | | | | | |
Managers and administrators|16,486|16,255|16,124|-131|-362|494|15,630
Professional|23,992|23,037|22,034|-1,003|-1,958|1,950|20,084
Associate professional and technical|12,104|11,540|11,253|-287|-851|1,434|9,819
Clerical and secretarial|39,308|37,172|36,664|-508|-2,644|2,826|33,838
Craft and related |96,072|84,345|83,152|-1,193|-12,920|7,548|75,604
Personal and protective service|49,984|48,057|48,957|+900|-1,027|8,112|40,845
Sales|44,167|43,569|42,382|-1,187|-1,785|10,322|32,060
Plant and machine operatives|67,257|65,507|64,753|-754|-2,504|8,232|56,521
Other occupation|48,344|46,107|45,695|-412|-2,649|9,690|36,005
No occupation(1)|19,563|20,923|20,493|-430|+930|9,112|11,381
Total |417,277|396,512|391,507|-5,005|-25,770|59,720|331,787

Geuze

Fresh data from Eurostat on material deprivation and work intensity:

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/index.php/Material_deprivation_and_low_work_intensity_statistics

Ireland's figure for VLWI is published.

Very Low Work Intensity

Work intensity is the ratio between the number of months that household members of working age (person aged 18-59 years, with the exclusion of dependent children in the age group between 18 and 24 years) worked during the income reference year and the total number of months that could theoretically have been worked by the same household members. For persons who declared that they worked part-time, the number of months worked in full time equivalent roles is estimated on the basis of the number of hours usually worked at the time of the interview.

People living in households with very low work intensity are defined as people of all ages (from 0-59 years) living in households where the members of working age worked less than 20 % of their total potential during the previous 12 months.

Geuze

Here is the VLWI graph:

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/index.php?title=File:6_People_aged_less_than_60_living_in_households_with_very_low_work_intensity_2010-2011.png&filetimestamp=20140114163249

Not good. We have 24.1% of people living in households with VLWI in 2011. That's up from 22.9% in 2010.

Ignoring Croatia, just recently joined, Belgium is the next highest at 13.7%.

Geuze

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/images/b/b8/6_People_aged_less_than_60_living_in_households_with_very_low_work_intensity_2010-2011.png

woodoo

Geuze wrote: »

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/images/b/b8/6_People_aged_less_than_60_living_in_households_with_very_low_work_intensity_2010-2011.png

Scandalous when is the government going to get tough with the layabout classes. This is a direct result of continuing to pay the same levels of welfare whether you are on it 1 year or 10 years or 20 years.

_Kaiser_

I just came up with another reason that kills the will to work in this country - the tax system.

I worked damn hard and was given the maximum score on my performance review last year which should mean this month I'd see a nice bonus in my paycheque, but I just woke up to find that 50% of what I've been paid this month (salary + bonus) has been deducted as tax - not forgetting the €200 a month I'm losing too thanks to the changes to the single parent tax credit, but which costs me a lot more than that to support my child.

I thought it might be a mistake but according to the XLS on taxcalc.eu it's right alright. I'm not on the magical €60k "average wage" (or even close) either.

Seriously.. why should I bother even going in today?

srsly78

It's more than 50% actually :pac: This will probably kick in on any income above e32k for many people. PRSI+USC+Higher rate.

efb

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

I just came up with another reason that kills the will to work in this country - the tax system.

I worked damn hard and was given the maximum score on my performance review last year which should mean this month I'd see a nice bonus in my paycheque, but I just woke up to find that 50% of what I've been paid this month (salary + bonus) has been deducted as tax - not forgetting the €200 a month I'm losing too thanks to the changes to the single parent tax credit, but which costs me a lot more than that to support my child.

I thought it might be a mistake but according to the XLS on taxcalc.eu it's right alright. I'm not on the magical €60k "average wage" (or even close) either.

Seriously.. why should I bother even going in today?

If you don't early over €60K 50% of your salary is not gone on taxes

srsly78

Oh yes lets argue over the meaning of "tax". PRSI and USC don't count right?

efb

srsly78 wrote: »

Oh yes lets argue over the meaning of "tax". PRSI and USC don't count right?

No you can add them all

srsly78

Read his post again, he was referring to his "bonus". Not to the effective rate on his entire salary. Any income over e32k gets over 50% deducted for most people.

efb

Her is a single persons tax liability at 59,000 where all income is taxable

33.57% of the income is "lost" to taxes

srsly78

Yes but that isn't what the poster claimed, read it again.

efb

That will reduce over the course of the year (more will fall into the lower rate) as the months go by unless he receives similar bonuses each month.

But if your total taxable income for the year does not exceed €59K, your prevailing rate is 33.57% for the year.

It's cumulative

srsly78

You miss the point. Why bother to do extra work/overtime if you know you will only get <50% of the benefit?

Potatoeman

If you add social welfare and whatever housing allowance you can get how does it compare to the minimum wage?

Valetta

srsly78 wrote: »

You miss the point. Why bother to do extra work/overtime if you know you will only get <50% of the benefit?

Because if you don't do extra work you will get nothing?

I know which I'd prefer.

srsly78

Sure you might do a bit, but you won't be that pushed about it. Many people do the maths in their head and decide when it's not worth it.

efb

srsly78 wrote: »

You miss the point. Why bother to do extra work/overtime if you know you will only get <50% of the benefit?

Over the year you will get over 65% of the benefit

I'd rather 65% of 60k than 100% of 16K

Self esteem is important too

efb

srsly78 wrote: »

You miss the point. Why bother to do extra work/overtime if you know you will only get <50% of the benefit?

Is missing the point seeing the miscalculation?

srsly78

There is no miscalculation, rather the comparison of apples and oranges. You talk about effective tax rate on total salary, while the point under discussion is tax on bonus salary.

Also, you can have your self-esteem - but 6 months a year on holidays is better.

golfwallah

Before introducing the welfare cap in the UK, a spokesman for Prime Minister, David Cameron, said

"We can't have a system where people are claiming benefits which are greater than you would get if you were in a job paying £35,000."

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/01/23/benefit-cap-argument-limit-26000_n_1222992.html

Certainly, there are arguments for and against a welfare cap along similar lines being introduced in Ireland, and Minister, Joan Burton, would not be in favour, IMO.

But wouldn't it be in the interests of democracy to have a more open debate on the issue - particularly when you consider the disincentive to work caused by growing tax rates? That said, the withdrawal from public view of one controversial report by the ESRI on the subject, does not bode well for an informed public debate - better keep it all under wraps, what, what!

srsly78

The rich need to pay more tax right?

golfwallah

srsly78 wrote: »

The rich need to pay more tax right?

There has to be something wrong with a system where ordinary working men and women have to pay high taxes on average earnings, compared to many on welfare who can have a better lifestyle by doing nothing - pure and simple!

These people on average earnings are not "rich", yet they are subsidizing many welfare recipients who have better lifestyles than themselves.

This disincentive to work is the nub of the argument - not taxing these "rich" people even more!

The argument for imposing more tax on the top earners is "off thread" and another argument entirely.

intellectual dosser

Are tax bands adjusted annually? (ie. to align with inflation)

Idbatterim

Her is a single persons tax liability at 59,000 where all income is taxable

33.57% of the income is "lost" to taxes

Yeah, this is fairly obvious, its fairly obvious they cant tax all income at over 50%. Bottom line is, when you work earn over E32,800 as a single person, 52% is going to those parasites, to continue the gravy train for a whole host of Irish society. FG have said they will lower it, as they themselves have referred to it as scandalous, will be this year budget or next. Having only 2 tax bands is ridiculous, there should be at least 3, or simply have a flat rate, but hang on, that wouldnt be fair would it, someone earning 100k paying in "only" 5 times more than someone on 20k... :rolleyes: Ireland, the best little country in the world to get shafted at every turn for trying to make a modest living...

Are tax bands adjusted annually? (ie. to align with inflation)

you have to be joking, no they arent, it depends on the on the finances of the country at the time. What is pretty insane to me is, how low the threshold and how high the marginal rate was / is even after endless FF giveaways, it goes to show how they just bought off every sector of society, "fairness" has nothing to do with it.

The rich need to pay more tax right?

This is where the definition of "rich" comes in, average joes even on 80-100k who some might define as "rich" cant avail of all the tax avoidance measures that someone on a multiple of the figure could...

AlekSmart

This Irish Times pre-Christmas piece may or may not be relevant to this thread,but it does put some specific figures on the bones being discussed here..?

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/kitty-holland-7.2276472

What looks like a €363.60 Per Week payment....?

Any other observations on this situation ?

Potatoeman

AlekSmart wrote: »

This Irish Times pre-Christmas piece may or may not be relevant to this thread,but it does put some specific figures on the bones being discussed here..?

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/kitty-holland-7.2276472

What looks like a €363.60 Per Week payment....?

Any other observations on this situation ?

That link takes me to a brief profile of her. I dont see the story. How do they breakdown that figure because minimum wage is just under 9 euro an hour so about 360 per week.

Farmer Pudsey

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

I just came up with another reason that kills the will to work in this country - the tax system.

I worked damn hard and was given the maximum score on my performance review last year which should mean this month I'd see a nice bonus in my paycheque, but I just woke up to find that 50% of what I've been paid this month (salary + bonus) has been deducted as tax - not forgetting the €200 a month I'm losing too thanks to the changes to the single parent tax credit, but which costs me a lot more than that to support my child.

I thought it might be a mistake but according to the XLS on taxcalc.eu it's right alright. I'm not on the magical €60k "average wage" (or even close) either.

Seriously.. why should I bother even going in today?

I agree that the tax system is totally disfunctional. People are hitting over 50% tax rates on quite low income. It causes havoc with employers as often in quite ordinary jobs where bonus or extra work is reqiure the system takes a large portion of this. It discourages workers often from taking promotion or doing extra work as a high% of income is taken by the tax system. For some one that is maybe geting a Bonus of 1-2K or asked to work an extra day in the week for 130 euro and finf that 53% is taken away as well as the extra cost often involved in that bonus or work it ruins the incentive.

I garee with the government about limiting the extra tax relief assaciated with Single Prents. As a parent of three kids I get nothing extra from the tax system even though it cost a lot to rear same. This is the responsibility if having childern entails it cost money. It might encourage people to be more responsible in there matimmg habits.

srsly78 wrote: »

The rich need to pay more tax right?

How do you quantify rich the reality is that the ver rich are able to work around the tax system and if you increase too much thet leave the country. If you increase it more more will leave it is the law od beminishing retutrns. It is one thing I have respect for Micheal O'Leary for unlike other wealty inviduals he did not do a runner.

golfwallah wrote: »

There has to be something wrong with a system where ordinary working men and women have to pay high taxes on average earnings, compared to many on welfare who can have a better lifestyle by doing nothing - pure and simple!

These people on average earnings are not "rich", yet they are subsidizing many welfare recipients who have better lifestyles than themselves.

This disincentive to work is the nub of the argument - not taxing these "rich" people even more!

The argument for imposing more tax on the top earners is "off thread" and another argument entirely.

The reason that tax are so high is the entitle ment culture. Take Kaiser he feels that he is entitled to a higher tax credit because he has a single child with another invidual and they are not partaking in a family unit. The vast majority of working familys recieve no extra tax benifit so why should he.

The biggest issue in Ireand is where we limit taxes through waivers or extra entitlements or pay benifit on top of benifit where people make lifestyle choices which may be irresponsible. The lad that thinks I need not work the state will provide me with an adequate lifestyle. All those politician that have retire on huge pensions.

The penelty points fiasco is a case of entitlement. These inviduals not just the guards involved felt that they were entitled to this. Alan Shatter taught he was entitles to drive away from a Garda checkpoint.

Idbatterim

How do you quantify rich the reality is that the very rich are able to work around the tax system and if you increase too much thet leave the country. If you increase it more more will leave it is the law od beminishing retutrns. It is one thing I have respect for Micheal O'Leary for unlike other wealty inviduals he did not do a runner.

I dont know, in regards to O'Leary, the notion I was contributing massive sums to the exchequer, when so much is wasted or to pay the likes of Kennys etc salary, why not move his tax affairs out of the country and if he is so concerned with doing the right thing, donate it to Irish charities etc, not to the likes of Angela Kerins and the rest of the cronies...

spank_inferno

intellectual dosser wrote: »

Are tax bands adjusted annually? (ie. to align with inflation)

No.... And its cunning on the governments part.

Taking inflation @ 2% per annum.
We have 10% less purchasing power since the crash in 2008.

spank_inferno

Also re: "Tax the rich".

The vast majority of wealth is in assets, not year to year income.

So arguing over PAYE rates for the few thousands very high income tax payers is less relevant when compared to asset wealth.

To enhance gov revenue, I'd have no issue with a land tax.

Idbatterim

Taking inflation @ 2% per annum.
We have 10% less purchasing power since the crash in 2008.

Exactly, the same way it is devaluing, welfare, pensions etc, its a powerful tool. People reckon, hey this isnt too bad, we arent being cut again, its a cut by stealth. Which in the case of welfare and PS wages and pensions is no bad thing...

Valetta

There was deflation in 2009 and 2010, so it's not nearly as bad as being said.

efb

srsly78 wrote: »

There is no miscalculation, rather the comparison of apples and oranges. You talk about effective tax rate on total salary, while the point under discussion is tax on bonus salary.

Also, you can have your self-esteem - but 6 months a year on holidays is better.

No not at all well for those that get bonuses in the currant climate, Irish Water?

efb

srsly78 wrote: »

There is no miscalculation, rather the comparison of apples and oranges. You talk about effective tax rate on total salary, while the point under discussion is tax on bonus salary.

Also, you can have your self-esteem - but 6 months a year on holidays is better.

He said salary and bonus