Entitlement Culture killing the will to work in Ireland

Geuze

The MTR marginal tax rate of 52% on income over 32,800 is indeed crazy.

I have been saying this over and over.


Mind you, it's also true that couples on 900pw can pay 5-10% average effective income tax. That's too low.


So we have the odd situation where the MTR facing average workers is too high, yet the ATR paid by many people is too low.

Godge

Geuze wrote: »

The MTR marginal tax rate of 52% on income over 32,800 is indeed crazy.

I have been saying this over and over.


Mind you, it's also true that couples on 900pw can pay 5-10% average effective income tax. That's too low.


So we have the odd situation where the MTR facing average workers is too high, yet the ATR paid by many people is too low.

Absolutely correct, but the solution involves reducing social welfare, taxing low-paid workers, widening tax bands and reducing/amalgamating higher rates of tax, PRSI and USC. None of which will be done under the current government.

Idbatterim

Absolutely correct, but the solution involves reducing social welfare, taxing low-paid workers, widening tax bands and reducing/amalgamating higher rates of tax, PRSI and USC. None of which will be done under the current government.

Absolutely, no chance as you say, that anything will be done on these fronts, certainly not so close to an election. They will probably be frozen for another few years, in effect they are being devalued all the time by inflation anyway, its very easy politically. Income taxes will be dropped, sooner rather than later I hope.

AlekSmart

Potatoeman wrote: »

That link takes me to a brief profile of her. I dont see the story. How do they breakdown that figure because minimum wage is just under 9 euro an hour so about 360 per week.

Apologies Potatoeman......here's the correct link....

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/food-poverty-affects-457-000-people-across-the-state-1.1630073

The_Honeybadger

srsly78 wrote: »

You miss the point. Why bother to do extra work/overtime if you know you will only get <50% of the benefit?

I started a thread about this not long ago. I have an opportunity to earn an extra 10k on top of my paye income, only catch is it will all be taxed at the marginal rate. Still debating it in my head but I'm leaning towards not bothering and spending the extra time with my family. Too much effort for so little return. If the rate was more sensible it'd be a no brainer.

Farmer Pudsey

AlekSmart wrote: »

Apologies Potatoeman......here's the correct link....

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/food-poverty-affects-457-000-people-across-the-state-1.1630073

Aleck you asked for observations on this They are paying 110/week to a money lender maybe for last 18 months for TV and furniture. That is 8580 euro. They also are paying 50/week for gas and electricity again it is substancial I wonder is this winter only. If all year around it is 2.5K. These two items knock a 160/week hole in there weekly income.

I do not know the solution but the figures are stark

Idbatterim

I started a thread about this not long ago. I have an opportunity to earn an extra 10k on top of my paye income, only catch is it will all be taxed at the marginal rate. Still debating it in my head but I'm leaning towards not bothering and spending the extra time with my family. Too much effort for so little return. If the rate was more sensible it'd be a no brainer.

would you have to work more hours or take on more responsibility or both? The rate will probably be cut 2/3% in a year or two, but its nearly rearranging deck chairs on the titanic...

creedp

mickeyk wrote: »

I started a thread about this not long ago. I have an opportunity to earn an extra 10k on top of my paye income, only catch is it will all be taxed at the marginal rate. Still debating it in my head but I'm leaning towards not bothering and spending the extra time with my family. Too much effort for so little return. If the rate was more sensible it'd be a no brainer.

Given the financial difficulties many workers/unemployed people currently find themselves in you should take comfort in the fact that you have a choice to forego earning €5k in cash.

srsly78

Free time has an opportunity cost associated with it, unless you are on the dole. People are under no obligation to work 365 days a year to fund the welfare state.

Lots of money is lost because the 52% rate disincentivises extra work - no matter if you think these people are lucky or not.

AlekSmart

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Aleck you asked for observations on this They are paying 110/week to a money lender maybe for last 18 months for TV and furniture. That is 8580 euro. They also are paying 50/week for gas and electricity again it is substancial I wonder is this winter only. If all year around it is 2.5K. These two items knock a 160/week hole in there weekly income.

I do not know the solution but the figures are stark

Stark for sure Farmer Pudsey.

That "Money Lender" reference set my antenna a quiver,and I'm surprised the Writer did'nt delve in a bit deeper.

For what it's worth,I regard the current Government attitude towards the Credit Union movement to be verging on Treasonous.

We know that some CU's are in difficulties.
We also know that MOST CU's are not.
It is true to say that most CU's have a far better day to day relationship with their "customers" via the Common Bond than ANY of our topdrawer Banks,many of whom have PROVENLY engaged in dubious business practices of the highest order.

Why exactly it is now Government policy to significantly restrict the ability of the well run CU's to operate in the manner they were designed for is,to me,worth further investigation.

Are there Members of the Oireachtas with connections,even familial,to the Licenced Moneylending industry ?

Is there cause to investigate whether Members of the Oireachtas have connections to the ILLegal Moneylending industry ? (I ask this because it appear TOTALLY Illogical for ANY Government to be directing,or facilitating in any way, it's citizens to Moneylenders WHEN A VIABLE REGULATED ALTERNATIVE ALREADY EXISTS )

However,this is a totally seperate issue to the thread topic.

My gut feeling on the figures as revealed here is that €362.60 as a take-home,in the pocket figure for a couple and one child, is not breadline.

A working person in the same category would have some difficulty reaching that take-home figure particularly when the Medical Card is factored in.

The_Honeybadger

Idbatterim wrote: »

would you have to work more hours or take on more responsibility or both? The rate will probably be cut 2/3% in a year or two, but its nearly rearranging deck chairs on the titanic...

I'm on a fixed salary, the extra work would be private as a sole trader in a semi related sector. It would involve probably ten hours a week give or take. By the time I'd have deducted expenses and paid tax it doesn't really make sense. To be fair the expenses are minimal, it's the tax that is the killer. And yes I do appreciate that I am in a lucky position, that doesn't justify the insane rate however.

Idbatterim

I'm on a fixed salary, the extra work would be private as a sole trader in a semi related sector. It would involve probably ten hours a week give or take. By the time I'd have deducted expenses and paid tax it doesn't really make sense. To be fair the expenses are minimal, it's the tax that is the killer. And yes I do appreciate that I am in a lucky position, that doesn't justify the insane rate however.

just clarifying, Im not that said you were in a lucky position. To me, this would come down to ho much you need the extra money, i.e. if your worrying about the bills at the end of the month, its a no brainer, if you are already comfortable and not wanting for anything, it becomes a different matter... Unless you can pay yourself some of it in cash, that becomes a different matter

creedp

mickeyk wrote: »

I'm on a fixed salary, the extra work would be private as a sole trader in a semi related sector. It would involve probably ten hours a week give or take. By the time I'd have deducted expenses and paid tax it doesn't really make sense. To be fair the expenses are minimal, it's the tax that is the killer. And yes I do appreciate that I am in a lucky position, that doesn't justify the insane rate however.

By the way I fully agree with you, the MRT is too high and it kicks in too early. Maybe if there was an additional lower rate of tax so that the MR doen't kick in until a higher level of income is reached it might soften the blow for the middle income worker. Currently, though taxation is all about maximising revenue in the short term - no long term view being taken of the disincentives it might create - that's for the next Govt to worry about or maybe the one after that, or ...........

Farmer Pudsey

Idbatterim wrote: »

just clarifying, Im not that said you were in a lucky position. To me, this would come down to ho much you need the extra money, i.e. if your worrying about the bills at the end of the month, its a no brainer, if you are already comfortable and not wanting for anything, it becomes a different matter... Unless you can pay yourself some of it in cash, that becomes a different matter

creedp wrote: »

By the way I fully agree with you, the MRT is too high and it kicks in too early. Maybe if there was an additional lower rate of tax so that the MR doen't kick in until a higher level of income is reached it might soften the blow for the middle income worker. Currently, though taxation is all about maximising revenue in the short term - no long term view being taken of the disincentives it might create - that's for the next Govt to worry about or maybe the one after that, or ...........

This is not just an issue for workers it causes havoc for employers and sole traders as well. For an employers the net gross cost is 12% extra on wages in PRSI and maybe 13% VAT. If an skilled employee will not take on extra responsbility or work because of tax he may have to pay extra on top he is caught by a 25% levy on top of this. This encourages the black economy in that this employer may be tempted to break the rules and pay his skilled worker cash. It is the same with a sole trader he may be inclined to take Cash jobs rather than work within the system.

Not much leeway on an intermediate tax rate, present rate's are effectivity about 30 and 52% inc PRSI and USC. An intermediate rate would be above 40% and as another poster pointed we have the issue with lower paid workers paying little or no tax and we are unable to increase it as UA compete with it as an income and lifestyle choice.

Potatoeman

AlekSmart wrote: »

Apologies Potatoeman......here's the correct link....

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/food-poverty-affects-457-000-people-across-the-state-1.1630073

Seems like half a story, its missing some pretty big details.

sarumite

creedp wrote: »

Given the financial difficulties many workers/unemployed people currently find themselves in you should take comfort in the fact that you have a choice to forego earning €5k in cash.

The poster did say that instead of the additional earnings, they would spend the time with their family, so it seems clear that they woudl be required to work additional hours. It could be argued that anyone who is not actively looking for another job working a few extra hours a week on top of a 40 hour a week job can take comfort in the fact they have the choice of forgoing earning additional cash.

Icepick

Godge wrote: »

Absolutely correct, but the solution involves reducing social welfare, taxing low-paid workers, widening tax bands and reducing/amalgamating higher rates of tax, PRSI and USC. None of which will be done under the current government.

There is no room for higher income taxes for low-paid workers. There are substantial flat taxes that low-paid workers cannot or it's very hard for them to avoid.
The other suggestions are sound, but balanced budget must come from lower expenditure and there is a lot of stuff that can be cut or made more efficient still.

creedp

sarumite wrote: »

The poster did say that instead of the additional earnings, they would spend the time with their family, so it seems clear that they woudl be required to work additional hours. It could be argued that anyone who is not actively looking for another job working a few extra hours a week on top of a 40 hour a week job can take comfort in the fact they have the choice of forgoing earning additional cash.

Which is my point .. its good to have a job which pays a decent wage affording a standard of living that gives the opportunity to decide I don't have to work extra hours to make ends meet, whether ie be in the form of overtime in the current job or an alternative job/business. I agree that a significant factor in the decison not to work those extra hours is the MTR - the payoff is just not sufficient to outweigh the cost to the quality of family life.

jimb43

yoloc wrote: »

Havent been in his forum in awhile but i see everyone still crying about getting shafted here and tgere. Let me let you in on a wee secret you might not know. You are going to be shafted from all angles untill they day you die. Sad but true so sit back and enjoy folks.

WELL SAID ! ! ! thats the best bit of writing i ever seen, but the annoying bit is the people who ( fortunately ) have a job, are all banging on about the unemployed on welfare. WELFARE IS A DISGRACEFUL THING TO BE HAVING TO DEPEND ON . Welfare is something you get after fighting the state for 9 months, without having a penny to live on.

WELFARE SUCKS if only the people who have a job "where on the other foot, that would be great !!!" it would be a different story then. i have sent over 500 cv out and had 3 responses , been looking for work for nearly a year. there is no work about. Jobs are being lost all over , people are being made redundant , and the way things are it all seems to be the unemployed people who are to blame ( well i feel sorry for ya , keep moaning about your taxes, keep crying about your 10% of this and your 50 p cent sliding scales of your tax bracket this and that . ) i just hope you find yourselves on the pile yourselves real soon OK. then you will get to see the real world.
OH and by the way " i am still fighting the state and have been doing for 7 months, just for something to survive. its not my fault i have no job. "

Potatoeman

jimb43 wrote: »

WELL SAID ! ! ! thats the best bit of writing i ever seen, but the annoying bit is the people who ( fortunately ) have a job, are all banging on about the unemployed on welfare. WELFARE IS A DISGRACEFUL THING TO BE HAVING TO DEPEND ON . Welfare is something you get after fighting the state for 9 months, without having a penny to live on.

WELFARE SUCKS if only the people who have a job "where on the other foot, that would be great !!!" it would be a different story then. i have sent over 500 cv out and had 3 responses , been looking for work for nearly a year. there is no work about. Jobs are being lost all over , people are being made redundant , and the way things are it all seems to be the unemployed people who are to blame ( well i feel sorry for ya , keep moaning about your taxes, keep crying about your 10% of this and your 50 p cent sliding scales of your tax bracket this and that . ) i just hope you find yourselves on the pile yourselves real soon OK. then you will get to see the real world.
OH and by the way " i am still fighting the state and have been doing for 7 months, just for something to survive. its not my fault i have no job. "

Most people dont begrudge giving others a helping hand but its pretty clear there are major problems.
Welfare should decrease overtime and not increase. Even a minimum wage job should be more attactive than benefits. Most people here are moaning about half of their overtime and bonuses being taken. These are earned through working extra hours on top of the normal work week.

Idbatterim

One thing I will say about FG (this is not aimed at those who have been made redundant or are actively looking for work) it looks like its going to continue to pay less and less not to work, unlike under FF. The first sector that looks like they will receive a break is the PAYE one. PAYE and the unemployed i.e. job creation are priority number 1 IMO...

chopper6

Has anybody else heard talk of the PS Pension Levy being withdrawn?

StigmaMan

Icepick wrote: »

There is no room for higher income taxes for low-paid workers. There are substantial flat taxes that low-paid workers cannot or it's very hard for them to avoid.
The other suggestions are sound, but balanced budget must come from lower expenditure and there is a lot of stuff that can be cut or made more efficient still.

Of pure interest what would you cut or privatize?

Count Dooku

StigmaMan wrote: »

Of pure interest what would you cut or privatize?

Bureaucracy for beginning, voluntary redundancies was easiest but inefficient way to reduce numbers, because you can ask to retire only those who was about to retire, not extra staff which has nothing important to do

golfwallah

StigmaMan wrote: »

Of pure interest what would you cut or privatize?

With public sector pay protected and “ring fenced” by the Croke Park and Haddington Road Agreements, the room for quick fix cuts is very limited, politically at least. That is unless there is another major war, world economic or currency crisis.

That leaves us with more long term solutions to be looked at. Problem is that long term solutions take time and won’t be capable of being implemented before the next local or general elections.

The biggest savings / efficiencies that could be made are in the biggest budget areas, i.e. Health and Social Welfare. But these would require a long term approach towards educating the public on the issues and choices involved, getting a broad consensus on the solutions and then implementing them. None of this would be easy, but could include, for example:

Health:
We’ve almost reached a tipping point in health spending – we simply can’t just throw more money at the problem (increased spending over the years isn’t working anyway) and need to put much more effort into finding smarter ways of doing things. This includes making much more effective use of information to target and reduce costs (i.e. the “Big Data” concept). This would require much more effective data collection and mining to help find what treatments are most effective for different conditions and in different situations – just like big Retailers, Google, Facebook, etc. do to target and sell to their customers. For more info., see: http://www.mckinsey.com/insights/health_systems/~/media/7764A72F70184C8EA88D805092D72D58.ashx

I’m sure others can suggest more ways of reducing costs, such as more effective use of generic medicines (even though progress has been made, more focus is required to produce better results).

Social Welfare:
It should be more financially rewarding to work rather than make a lifestyle choice of depending on welfare. They started working on this issue in the UK some time ago and now have the “welfare cap”. There seems to be broad Government and opposition agreement on the need to cut the welfare budget in the UK – but not on how it’s being done. I believe, we need to start facing up to the same issues and choices in Ireland.

Geuze

golfwallah wrote: »

With public sector pay protected and “ring fenced” by the Croke Park and Haddington Road Agreements, the room for quick fix cuts is very limited, politically at least.

Just a quick point - some people may read this as saying "public service pay is protected and so has not fallen", when there have been three paycuts.

Just to clarify.

Idbatterim

Havent been in his forum in awhile but i see everyone still crying about getting shafted here and tgere. Let me let you in on a wee secret you might not know. You are going to be shafted from all angles untill they day you die. Sad but true so sit back and enjoy folks.

thats little consolation. some get much more shafted than others!

Potatoeman

golfwallah wrote: »

With public sector pay protected and “ring fenced” by the Croke Park and Haddington Road Agreements, the room for quick fix cuts is very limited, politically at least. That is unless there is another major war, world economic or currency crisis.

That leaves us with more long term solutions to be looked at. Problem is that long term solutions take time and won’t be capable of being implemented before the next local or general elections.

The biggest savings / efficiencies that could be made are in the biggest budget areas, i.e. Health and Social Welfare. But these would require a long term approach towards educating the public on the issues and choices involved, getting a broad consensus on the solutions and then implementing them. None of this would be easy, but could include, for example:

Health:
We’ve almost reached a tipping point in health spending – we simply can’t just throw more money at the problem (increased spending over the years isn’t working anyway) and need to put much more effort into finding smarter ways of doing things. This includes making much more effective use of information to target and reduce costs (i.e. the “Big Data” concept). This would require much more effective data collection and mining to help find what treatments are most effective for different conditions and in different situations – just like big Retailers, Google, Facebook, etc. do to target and sell to their customers. For more info., see: http://www.mckinsey.com/insights/health_systems/~/media/7764A72F70184C8EA88D805092D72D58.ashx

I’m sure others can suggest more ways of reducing costs, such as more effective use of generic medicines (even though progress has been made, more focus is required to produce better results).

Social Welfare:
It should be more financially rewarding to work rather than make a lifestyle choice of depending on welfare. They started working on this issue in the UK some time ago and now have the “welfare cap”. There seems to be broad Government and opposition agreement on the need to cut the welfare budget in the UK – but not on how it’s being done. I believe, we need to start facing up to the same issues and choices in Ireland.

The problem with many of these ideas is that they are impossible to implement without the ability to fire people. They can just fight changes and get away with it.

Idbatterim

The problem with many of these ideas is that they are impossible to implement without the ability to fire people.

People can be fired though, it just doesnt happen very often...

golfwallah

Idbatterim wrote: »

People can be fired though, it just doesnt happen very often...

Ahhh, yes, in theory at least, public servants can be sacked (or more correctly, made redundant), but this seems not to happen in practice.

The French Government, under Francois Mitterrand as far back as 1982, had the power to dismiss heads of nationalised industries.

After 2 years in power and despite all the talk of reform, our own Brendan Howlin is only thinking about bringing in powers to sack bad public servants – but these reforms are on hold until 2016:
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/brendan-howlin-sanctions-firing-of-bad-civil-servants-but-reforms-on-hold-until-2016-29903865.html

Meanwhile, the taxpayer is being screwed with higher and higher taxes and now water charges (the head of Irish Water, it seems, can’t be sacked either).

AlekSmart

Potatoeman wrote: »

Most people dont begrudge giving others a helping hand but its pretty clear there are major problems.
Welfare should decrease overtime and not increase. Even a minimum wage job should be more attactive than benefits. Most people here are moaning about half of their overtime and bonuses being taken. These are earned through working extra hours on top of the normal work week.

What is not often acknowledged is the fact that "Ordinary" workers now have a universal Income Cap imposed upon them via the Working Time Directive.

This piece of legislation,which has rebounded rather spectacularly upon its Trades Union based supporters limits ALL employed persons to an average of 48 hours work over a given period (between 17 and 26 weeks)

What many fail to appreciate however,is that the strictures of the Working Time Act apply to an individuals total working time across ALL employments.

This means that the time-honoured means for an employed individual to "better themselves" or "Improve their lot" by working harder or longer is deemed Illegal in modern Ireland.

It is my belief that any country which is prepared to devote such resources into PREVENTING workers from WORKING is being run by people with no real understanding of how stuff works out here in RealWorldland....
.

Gumbo

chopper6 wrote: »

Has anybody else heard talk of the PS Pension Levy being withdrawn?

Nope, heard nothing, they will probably just absorb it into one payment or something.

jimb43

Potatoeman wrote: »

Most people dont begrudge giving others a helping hand but its pretty clear there are major problems.
Welfare should decrease overtime and not increase. Even a minimum wage job should be more attactive than benefits. Most people here are moaning about half of their overtime and bonuses being taken. These are earned through working extra hours on top of the normal work week.

Your wrong, most people do begrudge, most people on here are all banging on about how its not fair for them to be working and someone on the social gets more than them ( and in a way i can understand that "that is definitely not right/ or fair, but ……. you say even a minimum wage job , should be more than attractive. i say show me a job that will pay me anything "less than the minimum " i will take it . THE REALITY IS THERE ISNT ANY. minimum , or under minimum, the social have come up with this crap JOBBRIDGE, witch is just a clever little way of manipulating the unemployment figures. any half decent job that would be a good job for someone to support there family has been taken away(taken advantage of by the employer who just pays them 50 euro for a 40 hour week.) that is worse in my mind than the foreigners coming here and working for peanuts ( i would like to stress that i have nothing against foreigners, anyone who leaves there country and goes hundreds of miles to better them selves ) I'm just comparing the 2 scenarios, jobridge/ and peanuts..

i say good luck to ya if you have a job, and even more good luck to ya if you have a choice for overtime, but don't be crying about the government taxing you more , be grateful you have a choice, be grateful you have a job.

Gumbo

jimb43 wrote: »

Your wrong, most people do begrudge, most people on here are all banging on about how its not fair for them to be working and someone on the social gets more than them ( and in a way i can understand that "that is definitely not right/ or fair, but ……. you say even a minimum wage job , should be more than attractive. i say show me a job that will pay me anything "less than the minimum " i will take it . THE REALITY IS THERE ISNT ANY. minimum , or under minimum, the social have come up with this crap JOBBRIDGE, witch is just a clever little way of manipulating the unemployment figures. any half decent job that would be a good job for someone to support there family has been taken away(taken advantage of by the employer who just pays them 50 euro for a 40 hour week.) that is worse in my mind than the foreigners coming here and working for peanuts ( i would like to stress that i have nothing against foreigners, anyone who leaves there country and goes hundreds of miles to better them selves ) I'm just comparing the 2 scenarios, jobridge/ and peanuts..

i say good luck to ya if you have a job, and even more good luck to ya if you have a choice for overtime, but don't be crying about the government taxing you more , be grateful you have a choice, be grateful you have a job.

minimum wage jobs are not attractive enough to invite Irish people off the dole and into them. Dunnes constantly take on new staff, as do Tesco and i believe these both pay over minimum wage. Although im not promoting these guys to work for, if i had to take the job as a bridge while out of work i would.

jimb43

and,,,,,, your point being ??

jimb43

The way i see it , is the word ATTRACTIVE, doesn't/ and shouldn't even come into it.

jimb43

a job is a job, my point is those of you ( I'm not directing this at you personally ) but those of you who have a job should be grateful, and stop banging on about the social welfare system. stop banging on about how unfair it is ( even though it is ) that you are getting taxed more when you do overtime. As there a re thousands of people who wish they were in a job and able to work 40 hour a week never mind overtime

jimb43

jimb43 wrote: »

a job is a job, my point is those of you ( I'm not directing this at you personally ) but those of you who have a job should be grateful, and stop banging on about the social welfare system. stop banging on about how unfair it is ( even though it is ) that you are getting taxed more when you do overtime. As there a re thousands of people who wish they were in a job and able to work 40 hour a week never mind overtime

don't forget this thread is /and was about the THE ENTITLEMENT CULTURE, AND WILL TO WORK , which is a direct attack on people who are on the dole.

i do agree though and I'm not ever going to defend anyone who does take the pi@@, and use the system and there are a few to be fair but ,,,,,,,, well we could be blue in the face with this for ever.

jimb43

golfwallah wrote: »

Ahhh, yes, in theory at least, public servants can be sacked (or more correctly, made redundant), but this seems not to happen in practice.

The French Government, under Francois Mitterrand as far back as 1982, had the power to dismiss heads of nationalised industries.

After 2 years in power and despite all the talk of reform, our own Brendan Howlin is only thinking about bringing in powers to sack bad public servants – but these reforms are on hold until 2016:
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/brendan-howlin-sanctions-firing-of-bad-civil-servants-but-reforms-on-hold-until-2016-29903865.html

Meanwhile, the taxpayer is being screwed with higher and higher taxes and now water charges (the head of Irish Water, it seems, can’t be sacked either).

There are some Civil Servants who i could name personally who are a complete disgrace to this country, and ide line them up and shoot them if i could , they don't even deserve the luxury of being sacked, the social welfare system is a kgb run set up. it operates how it likes , it makes unfounded accusations but its allowed to make "certified refusals" to people which creates untold hardship . They don't give a Shi@ if you have money to survive or not. you would starve for them .

You have the right to appeal those decisions ( made by the kgb staff at the job centres ) , which takes 6 months to be heard bye the Gistapo ( the social welfare appeals officers ) who are supposed to be independent to the kgb , BUT THEYRE NOT..

This country is taking the PIS@ out of us all and you know what ?????

It is my opinion that " its our own fault for letting them" no one does anything
We all talk about it and how out of order they are but no one actually does anything ( I'm just as guilty as I'm writing it right now ) i just wish we could all somehow get together and sack the effi@ lot of them .

golfwallah

jimb43 wrote: »

Your wrong, most people do begrudge, most people on here are all banging on about how its not fair for them to be working and someone on the social gets more than them ( and in a way i can understand that "that is definitely not right/ or fair, but ……. you say even a minimum wage job , should be more than attractive. i say show me a job that will pay me anything "less than the minimum " i will take it . THE REALITY IS THERE ISNT ANY. minimum , or under minimum, the social have come up with this crap JOBBRIDGE, witch is just a clever little way of manipulating the unemployment figures. any half decent job that would be a good job for someone to support there family has been taken away(taken advantage of by the employer who just pays them 50 euro for a 40 hour week.) that is worse in my mind than the foreigners coming here and working for peanuts ( i would like to stress that i have nothing against foreigners, anyone who leaves there country and goes hundreds of miles to better them selves ) I'm just comparing the 2 scenarios, jobridge/ and peanuts..

i say good luck to ya if you have a job, and even more good luck to ya if you have a choice for overtime, but don't be crying about the government taxing you more , be grateful you have a choice, be grateful you have a job.

I can understand that an unemployed person can be angry at the system from the personal viewpoint – just as angry, perhaps, as working people are at the high levels of taxes they have to pay.

I also appreciate that anyone on unemployment benefit can become despondent and critical of government schemes to get people back to work – if their personal circumstances make that particular scheme difficult to avail of. That being said, I think your general conclusions about Jobbridge (which provides opportunities to gain marketable work experience) are not borne out by the facts.

Independent evaluation by consultancy firm Indicon has put placement from Jobbridge at 60%:
http://www.jobbridge.ie/toolkit/IndeconReport.pdf
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iT7GOYxyy8o

I’m no great fan of Minister Joan Burton, and accept that the Jobbridge scheme is not perfect, but it is giving people job opportunities that they wouldn’t otherwise have.

I also find it difficult to believe that there are no jobs out there – even at minimum wage. It may not be easy or the job mightn’t be exactly what you want but I’m quite sure you could get one, if you set about it in a positive frame of mind.

K-9

jimb43 wrote: »

There are some Civil Servants who i could name personally who are a complete disgrace to this country, and ide line them up and shoot them if i could , they don't even deserve the luxury of being sacked, the social welfare system is a kgb run set up. it operates how it likes , it makes unfounded accusations but its allowed to make "certified refusals" to people which creates untold hardship . They don't give a Shi@ if you have money to survive or not. you would starve for them .

You have the right to appeal those decisions ( made by the kgb staff at the job centres ) , which takes 6 months to be heard bye the Gistapo ( the social welfare appeals officers ) who are supposed to be independent to the kgb , BUT THEYRE NOT..

This country is taking the PIS@ out of us all and you know what ?????

It is my opinion that " its our own fault for letting them" no one does anything
We all talk about it and how out of order they are but no one actually does anything ( I'm just as guilty as I'm writing it right now ) i just wish we could all somehow get together and sack the effi@ lot of them .

From the Charter for the forum:

Certain standards of debate are expected, and will be enforced. Your posts must contribute to debate, not derail it or drag it into mob chanting. There's been a serious decrease in the signal to noise ratio in the forum recently, and that trend requires reversal.

If your posts consists of little more than a statement that some group of people or other are bad people and/or deserve prison/execution as traitors, think long and hard before pressing "submit", because we'll be treating that as trolling from here on in.

That's enough of these type of posts thank you.

jimb43

ok fair enough

ressem

golfwallah wrote: »

Independent evaluation by consultancy firm Indicon has put placement from Jobbridge at 60%:
http://www.jobbridge.ie/toolkit/IndeconReport.pdf
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iT7GOYxyy8o

I’m no great fan of Minister Joan Burton, and accept that the Jobbridge scheme is not perfect, but it is giving people job opportunities that they wouldn’t otherwise have.

Where does 60% come from? Of respondents 51.4% say that they had found (perm/temp/part-time) employment. (2300 responses from 4401 surveys distributed to the control group. 7058 completed internships). (Table 6.3, Table 3.28)
The social welfare database has less flattering numbers. Going directly into employment 19.5 with host. 16.8 with other.

How does that tally with table 3.17 ( page 57) on the Indicon report of the survey of Jobsbridge Host Organisations.
18.7% of interns were offered paid employment by the host
16.8% were offered paid employment in an organisation other than the host.

31.9% of intern respondents believe that they were fairly/highly likely to have secured employment without jobsbridge.

Table 5.3 says that 35.1% of private/ semistate respondents would have considered taking a paid employee, and the report's author believes only 3% of internships displaced a paid employee.

Table 5.4 says 29% would have been likely to offer paid employment in the absence of the jobsbridge scheme.

golfwallah

ressem wrote: »

Where does 60% come from? Of respondents 51.4% say that they had found (perm/temp/part-time) employment. (2300 responses from 4401 surveys distributed to the control group. 7058 completed internships). (Table 6.3, Table 3.28)
The social welfare database has less flattering numbers. Going directly into employment 19.5 with host. 16.8 with other.

How does that tally with table 3.17 ( page 57) on the Indicon report of the survey of Jobsbridge Host Organisations.
18.7% of interns were offered paid employment by the host
16.8% were offered paid employment in an organisation other than the host.

31.9% of intern respondents believe that they were fairly/highly likely to have secured employment without jobsbridge.

Table 5.3 says that 35.1% of private/ semistate respondents would have considered taking a paid employee, and the report's author believes only 3% of internships displaced a paid employee.

Table 5.4 says 29% would have been likely to offer paid employment in the absence of the jobsbridge scheme.

According to the Executive Summary of the Indicon Report:

While the figures on percentages in employment for those who finished their internships less than one month ago are similar to those from the Department of Social Protection’s JobBridge database, the results show that after a short period of time employment rates among scheme participants have increased, with an employment rate of 61.4% evident among participants who completed over five months previously

However, the minute details of the Indicon Report or the Department’s database are not really the point of my post, which was to counter the negative assertions about no jobs being out there and about Jobbridge:

THE REALITY IS THERE ISNT ANY. minimum , or under minimum, the social have come up with this crap JOBBRIDGE

Look, the whole thrust of this thread is about a defeatist culture of total welfare dependency as a preferred choice of lifestyle to working for a living.

As long as such easy welfare choices are made available and provide an often better lifestyle than can be afforded by working people, there will be more people on welfare than there should be. And this unnecessary spending has to be financed by the taxpayer!

At the end of the day, the aims of initiatives like Jobbridge are

to provide those seeking employment with the opportunity to gain work experience, maintain close links with the labour market and enhance their skills and competencies through an internship opportunity, thereby improving their prospects of securing employment in the future

No it's not a cure for unemployment and is but one government initiative to get people back to work - and, however imperfect it may be, it can't be all bad!

OldNotWIse

jimb43 wrote: »

Your wrong, most people do begrudge, most people on here are all banging on about how its not fair for them to be working and someone on the social gets more than them ( and in a way i can understand that "that is definitely not right/ or fair, but ……. you say even a minimum wage job , should be more than attractive. i say show me a job that will pay me anything "less than the minimum " i will take it . THE REALITY IS THERE ISNT ANY. minimum , or under minimum, the social have come up with this crap JOBBRIDGE, witch is just a clever little way of manipulating the unemployment figures. any half decent job that would be a good job for someone to support there family has been taken away(taken advantage of by the employer who just pays them 50 euro for a 40 hour week.) that is worse in my mind than the foreigners coming here and working for peanuts ( i would like to stress that i have nothing against foreigners, anyone who leaves there country and goes hundreds of miles to better them selves ) I'm just comparing the 2 scenarios, jobridge/ and peanuts..

i say good luck to ya if you have a job, and even more good luck to ya if you have a choice for overtime, but don't be crying about the government taxing you more , be grateful you have a choice, be grateful you have a job.

This annoys me.

A Scoundrel

golfwallah wrote: »

Look, the whole thrust of this thread is about a defeatist culture of total welfare dependency as a preferred choice of lifestyle to working for a living.

Don't you think it's a terribly grand co-incidence that this 'defeatist culture of total welfare dependency' arose about the same time as a large GDP shock from 2009?

Welfare transfers have been cut over the recent period, and suddenly welfare has become more attractive. Do you see why people are skeptical of this narrative?

As long as such easy welfare choices are made available and provide an often better lifestyle than can be afforded by working people

How "often", please? The ESRI puts the figure at about 6%

No it's not a cure for unemployment and is but one government initiative to get people back to work - and, however imperfect it may be, it can't be all bad!

You're assuming that at worst, it is passive, that it's not doing any harm. If it is displacing real jobs, then it is causing actual harm, and it is yet to be determined whether there is any net benefits attached to the Job Bridge scheme.

I disagree with those who write off Job Bridge without considering the advantages it provides. However, those who do not consider the possible harm that Job Bridge is doing, and who are so naive to believe the scheme is not being abused, are even worse.

Icepick

OldNotWIse wrote: »

This annoys me.

Forget education, skills and your attitude at work. It's all a coin flip.:rolleyes:

golfwallah

@ A Scoundrel:
Sure, there is a correlation between the economic downturn and growth in welfare payments but it can’t all be explained by this factor – even Minister Burton admits this (that welfare as a lifestyle choice is an issue) – with headlines like “One in seven people on social welfare in Ireland have never worked”:
http://www.irishcentral.com/news/one-in-seven-people-on-social-welfare-in-ireland-have-never-worked-208115901-237590751.html

http://www.herald.ie/news/one-in-seven-people-drawing-the-dole-has-never-had-a-job-29280893.html


It’s the size of the social welfare budget and how it is being paid for (through high taxes today and borrowings to be repaid by our children and grand children tomorrow) that should concern us most:
http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1026476.shtml


Also “Just 3% of dole recipients ‘better off’ without a job” – but whether 3% or 6% (from your ESRI figures) of a very large spend – it still comes to a lot of money:
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/just-3-of-dole-recipients-better-off-without-a-job-1.1568724

It’s easy to describe "just" 3% or 6% as small amounts when it’s other people’s money you are talking about – and this kind of attitude and resultant waste of taxpayers’ money is endemic throughout the public service, in my experience.

As regards Jobbridge, I don’t believe it is replacing jobs or being abused on a grand scale as you seem to be implying. Quite the contrary, it is providing otherwise unemployed people with opportunities and reducing the risks of new recruitment for employers during poor market conditions.

Proustian

While one sympathises with anyone who loses a job, the mindset of others is often breathtaking.

In this thread http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057139784 the OP says if she moves to ireland she will "get" rent allowance of €240 per week and a further €300 form the social welfare. If it's true shame on the Irish welfare system which encourages this sort of "welfare tourism".

More revealing, and the whole tone of the thread (even one moderator who issues dire warning to anyone who might even question it) is the assumption that this is normal and should not even be questioned.

It seems that the attitude still prevails in Ireland that the governments money is unlimited and up for grabs for anyone, and not really anyone's money. The sooner the attitude changes to understand that the government has no money, and it is our money it is spending, the better for Ireland.

However, as many politicians seem to have the same attitude, it's unlikely to change any time soon and welfare dependency will continue to be not only encouraged but made so financially rewarding that foreigners are attracted to Ireland to "get" rent allowances and "get" welfare payments, then, perhaps, the country is doomed, financially.

Why do Irish people put up with this sort of thing , which seems to be tacitly encouraged even by some boards monitors.

Idbatterim

While one sympathises with anyone who loses a job, the mindset of others is often breathtaking.

In this thread http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showt...p?t=2057139784 the OP says if she moves to ireland she will "get" rent allowance of €240 per week and a further €300 form the social welfare. If it's true shame on the Irish welfare system which encourages this sort of "welfare tourism".

getting rid of Labour is the first step to ending this! If we had FG and a coalition of like minded independents that is. It seems the only party that are prepared to do anything about welfare is FG, correct me if I'm wrong...