Entitlement Culture killing the will to work in Ireland

OldNotWIse

Paulzx wrote: »

To be fair I don't think there are any political parties that have a public policy position that long term multi generational welfare claiming will be tackled and phased out. If a voter wishes to cast his vote for a candidate that is willing to tackle the handout culture he'll have to look long and far to find one.

These issues should have been tackled during the "boom". We were bringing thousands of people in from other countries to fill jobs here yet had an unemployment rate of around 4%. Whilst some of this was undoubtably made up of genuine cases there was absolutely no excuse to pay an 18-19 year old able bodied school leaver a dole payment when they could have walked into a job. The fact the job might be a so called menial job is irrellevant. Tough ****!!. If you don't want to do a low paid job get yourself educated or trained. Dole should not be an option in this case.

I agree with this. The people who complain about "foreigners taking our jobs" are the very ones who wouldnt "lower" themselves to these positions during the boom.

Proustian

OldNotWIse wrote: »

It's always been a case of best of a bad lot. I never voted FF or FG. Who do you suggest we vote for?

It's an interesting point as to who we should vote for. In recent decades FF became known as the party which was most corrupt, with one wag even suggesting that Beaumont Hospital should be renamed the "Charles J Haughey memorial hospital" as it was rumored he made staggering amounts of cash from the contracts awarded for this publically funded project.

Currently, none of the political parties have any suggestions, ideas or policies which are devoted to taking Ireland from where she is (bankrupt) to a position where the country is once again on a sound financial footing. The art of politics these days is to hang on to your seat at any cost, even if it means the country remains in bankruptcy. Politicians with principle are sneered at by the career politicians, while talent is rewarded by being ostracized and political cunning rewarded by ministerial office.

We are saddled with a rotten political class who, while publically pretending to oppose each other, in private all agree on the big issues, and conspire to do little or nothing.
Their main ambition seems to be to end up on a pension of hundreds of thousands of Euros, index linked and paid for by the rest of us, after a career where their main achievement is the continuation of a rotten political system which does little for the people of Ireland and much for the politicians.

Idbatterim

It's an interesting point as to who we should vote for.

As things stand FG appear to me, to be by far and away the best of a bad lot... They seem to be the least populist. Take a read of the below, I must have missed a few years, but we are obviously back in 2007 :rolleyes:

FIONNAN SHEAHAN, GROUP POLITICAL EDITOR – 06 FEBRUARY 2014

Widespread wage hikes will threaten job creation unless there is a matching rise in the productivity of workers, the Government is set to warn.

Unions are pushing for pay rises this year, but the Coalition will caution against the damage to the country's competitiveness from increases in wages for doing the same amount of work.

The Cabinet will hold a special meeting this morning on jobs and reducing unemployment. Ministers will discuss policies to be included in this year's jobs plan.

Amid pressure for wage increases, the Coalition still feels the way to increase disposable income is by reducing the tax burden.

There is a belief wage hikes would make it less attractive for domestic employers to take on additional staff and bring in foreign investment.

"A period of further adjustment is necessary to get the economy back to competitiveness," said one Government source.

"Wage increases mean changes to the way we work and do business, as opposed to the old blanket set of wage increases.

"You have to try to avoid the loss of competitiveness that occurred with economic recovery in the past.

"We need to make sure we don't price the 300,000 looking for work out of the labour market.

"That doesn't mean the Government isn't concerned to address the squeeze of living standards."

The Action Plan for Jobs 2014 will focus on a number of areas:

* Providing apprenticeships and trainee places in the manufacturing sector.

* Targeting emerging markets, particularly in Asia.

* Opening up a series of new Local Enterprise Offices across the country.

* Making the country more competitive to create jobs.

The draft of the plan will include a reminder that the economy's need to be competitive is not yet complete.

The plan will say there needs to be a continued focus on the cost base, prices and wage levels.

The unit labour costs, which refers to wages and productivity, still has to be brought down, the Government believes.

FAMILIES

But the clamour for wage hikes is growing with the country's largest trade union, SIPTU, engaging in what it described as a major push for pay increases across the private sector.

The Government has indicated it will seek to reduce the tax burden for workers, particularly middle-income families.

Price levels in Ireland are still 14pc above the eurozone average, with unit labour costs rising for the first time since the recession hit six years ago.

Also in the plan, the external trade strategy will be updated with IDA and Enterprise Ireland focusing on new markets to push aggressively into, particularly, Asian countries.

The 34 City and County Enterprise Boards are being closed to be replaced by Local Enterprise Offices (LEOs).

The legislation setting up the LEOs will kick in on March 1 with the new offices to open in April.

A review of the Action Plan for Jobs 2013 will be discussed at the ministers' meeting today and they will also talk through policies for inclusion in this year's plan.

Irish Independent

jmayo

Paulzx wrote: »

To be fair I don't think there are any political parties that have a public policy position that long term multi generational welfare claiming will be tackled and phased out. If a voter wishes to cast his vote for a candidate that is willing to tackle the handout culture he'll have to look long and far to find one.

These issues should have been tackled during the "boom". We were bringing thousands of people in from other countries to fill jobs here yet had an unemployment rate of around 4%. Whilst some of this was undoubtably made up of genuine cases there was absolutely no excuse to pay an 18-19 year old able bodied school leaver a dole payment when they could have walked into a job. The fact the job might be a so called menial job is irrellevant. Tough ****!!. If you don't want to do a low paid job get yourself educated or trained. Dole should not be an option in this case.

During the height of our boom/bubble (i.e. mid 2000s) there was roughly somewhere between 80,000 to 90,000 unemployed.
Now some one may be able to correct me on this, but does our CSO figures only include those looking for work and capable of work ?
In other words it doesn't include those unable to work due to illness.
Then if we factor in those choosing to stay at home as carers, which should be small enough in the grand scheme of things, we still end up with a big chunk of people not working.
And this was a time when we had lots of jobs available.

Now during boom/bubble there was always need for certain trained and qualified workers that we just didn't have, but how come we had to get so many immigrants to act as bar staff, shop assistants, cleaners, manual labourers, drivers, etc.

I actually haven't come across any Irish industrial cleaning staff in the last decade.
I have come across Central & Eastern Europeans, Asians, South Americans woking in those jobs.

I think a fair few Irish got the mindset that certain jobs were beneath them and thanks to things like bertie's epiphany (i.e. another new way to buy votes) at his fianna fail think tank in Inchydoney, welfare was increased at a time when it should have been the opposite.

Paulzx

jmayo wrote: »

I think a fair few Irish got the mindset that certain jobs were beneath them .

I think some feel any work is below them

Icepick

Proustian wrote: »

It's an interesting point as to who we should vote for. In recent decades FF became known as the party which was most corrupt, with one wag even suggesting that Beaumont Hospital should be renamed the "Charles J Haughey memorial hospital" as it was rumored he made staggering amounts of cash from the contracts awarded for this publically funded project.

Currently, none of the political parties have any suggestions, ideas or policies which are devoted to taking Ireland from where she is (bankrupt) to a position where the country is once again on a sound financial footing. The art of politics these days is to hang on to your seat at any cost, even if it means the country remains in bankruptcy. Politicians with principle are sneered at by the career politicians, while talent is rewarded by being ostracized and political cunning rewarded by ministerial office.

We are saddled with a rotten political class who, while publically pretending to oppose each other, in private all agree on the big issues, and conspire to do little or nothing.
Their main ambition seems to be to end up on a pension of hundreds of thousands of Euros, index linked and paid for by the rest of us, after a career where their main achievement is the continuation of a rotten political system which does little for the people of Ireland and much for the politicians.

Actually the problem is how much they do for the half of the population that's on welfare.

golfwallah

Proustian wrote: »

It's an interesting point as to who we should vote for. In recent decades FF became known as the party which was most corrupt, with one wag even suggesting that Beaumont Hospital should be renamed the "Charles J Haughey memorial hospital" as it was rumored he made staggering amounts of cash from the contracts awarded for this publically funded project.

In fairness about Irish politics, I would think that desire for popularity, incompetence and poor leadership are more the problem than corruption. Any impartial assessment of performance during the last administration would have to conclude that the FF / Greens coalition government got us into the present financial mess, ably cheered on by the current FG / Labour coalition government, then in opposition. They were all to blame, IMO.

Despite all the pre-election hoo-hah about openness, transparency, accountability, value for money, Dail reform, etc., there has been little change since the last government. While there has been a lot of us v them “you lot, FF got us into this mess” accusation, fundamental change in the way we do politics in Ireland has not happened. We’re still in “pass the parcel” mode, waiting for the next international crisis that can be blamed on whoever happens to be in power. Last time the uncontrollable external event was the availability of cheap credit and an internal unwillingness to rock the boat about over lending on property, as long as the books could be balanced with stamp duty income. What will it be next time?

When elections come, we can only choose from the choice set before us – the alternatives are to get involved in selection of candidates or go forward yourself – but very few have the patience or stomach for that.

Currently, none of the political parties have any suggestions, ideas or policies which are devoted to taking Ireland from where she is (bankrupt) to a position where the country is once again on a sound financial footing. The art of politics these days is to hang on to your seat at any cost, even if it means the country remains in bankruptcy. Politicians with principle are sneered at by the career politicians, while talent is rewarded by being ostracized and political cunning rewarded by ministerial office.

Quite – we’re muddling through and those in power are looking after their own – business as usual has resumed. But, I guess a sense of perspective is required – we don’t have rioting in the streets, civil war, etc., and the politicians are safely locked away in Leinster House for some of the time, at least.

We are saddled with a rotten political class who, while publically pretending to oppose each other, in private all agree on the big issues, and conspire to do little or nothing.
Their main ambition seems to be to end up on a pension of hundreds of thousands of Euros, index linked and paid for by the rest of us, after a career where their main achievement is the continuation of a rotten political system which does little for the people of Ireland and much for the politicians.

Perhaps Plato’s quote applies here: “One of the penalties of refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors.”

chopper6

Icepick wrote: »

Actually the problem is how much they do for the half of the population that's on welfare.

Half of the population is on welfare?

Icepick

chopper6 wrote: »

Half of the population is on welfare?

yes

Geuze

chopper6 wrote: »

Half of the population is on welfare?

YES.

I was strongly and repeatedly challenged when I stated this on Boards before.

See from about post 90 here:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057001753&page=8

Note that I work in this area and deal with these stats every week.

I would never lie.

Now maybe some of the links I posted initially weren't live, but eventually my challengers had to accept the DSP stats.

All info in www.welfare.ie, in the Annual Statistical Report.

See here:

http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Annual-Statistical-Information-Reports.aspx


Here is the 2012 report:

http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Annual-SWS-Statistical-Information-Report---2012.aspx

golfwallah

chopper6 wrote: »

Half of the population is on welfare?

Icepick wrote: »

yes

With welfare budgets so high in Europe, maybe that's why action has already been taken in the UK to implement a "welfare cap" and is planned in Holland, for example to require unemployed people to move home to find work or their dole will be stopped:

The core of the new social assistance is that the rules are stricter. Candidates may be forced to include move for a job. Consideration may also be required in return for the payment. Who does not cooperate, can receive a substantial penalty.

http://www.nu.nl/politiek/3695288/toch-korting-bijstand-en-aow-bij-delen-kosten.html

I gather from a relative living there that, amongst other welfare changes, the Dutch are also proposing to cut dole to parents if the children living at home also receive the dole.

Geuze

chopper6 wrote: »

Half of the population is on welfare?

2012 data from 2012 DSP stats report, Section A:

http://www.welfare.ie/en/downloads/Social%20Stats%20AR%202012_Section%20A.pdf

"Over 1,469,000 people were in receipt of a weekly social welfare payment at the end of 2012.
As these payments included increases in respect of over 202,500 Qualified Adults and over 512,500 children, along with Family Income Supplement and Guardian’s payments made in respect of 75,000 children, there were over
2,259,000 beneficiaries in all."

Note that this excludes monthly Child Benefit payments.

2012 beneficiaries = 2,259,000
2012 pop estimated = 4,585,000

AlekSmart

Geuze wrote: »

2012 data from 2012 DSP stats report, Section A:

http://www.welfare.ie/en/downloads/Social%20Stats%20AR%202012_Section%20A.pdf

"Over 1,469,000 people were in receipt of a weekly social welfare payment at the end of 2012.
As these payments included increases in respect of over 202,500 Qualified Adults and over 512,500 children, along with Family Income Supplement and Guardian’s payments made in respect of 75,000 children, there were over
2,259,000 beneficiaries in all."

Note that this excludes monthly Child Benefit payments.

2012 beneficiaries = 2,259,000
2012 pop estimated = 4,585,000

Worth noting also that some 748,000 of those "beneficiaries" also recieved a Free Travel Pass covering c.1,100,000 persons....A German,reading stats like these,might go ...we however, know better and go...;) !

golfwallah

AlekSmart wrote: »

Worth noting also that some 748,000 of those "beneficiaries" also recieved a Free Travel Pass covering c.1,100,000 persons....A German,reading stats like these,might go ...we however, know better and go...;) !

I thinks it's getting time for Enda to get rid of non-performing Ministers like Joan Burton, who can't or won't substantially reduce their budgets.

We have plenty of ministers at the cabinet table who are raising taxes and charges on those who are working.

It's about time we got someone in Social Welfare who has the guts to do what it takes to reduce spending, like is happening in the UK and Holland!

It can be done - but not apparently by Minister Joan Burton.

mariaalice

Just to note anyone receiving family income supplement are working and are the half of the population on welfare include those receiving pensions.

For the sake of clarity when any one on here states that half the population is on welfare they should brake It down to each type of support, as there is a tendency by some people to want to present it as half of the adult population of Ireland is s depended on social welfare for all their income.

jmayo

golfwallah wrote: »

With welfare budgets so high in Europe, maybe that's why action has already been taken in the UK to implement a "welfare cap" and is planned in Holland, for example to require unemployed people to move home to find work or their dole will be stopped:

http://www.nu.nl/politiek/3695288/toch-korting-bijstand-en-aow-bij-delen-kosten.html

I gather from a relative living there that, amongst other welfare changes, the Dutch are also proposing to cut dole to parents if the children living at home also receive the dole.

And an even bigger problem will be the pension one coming down the road in years to come.
Future generations are going to end up working a lot longer and end up getting even less when they do finish.

golfwallah wrote: »

I thinks it's getting time for Enda to get rid of non-performing Ministers like Joan Burton, who can't or won't substantially reduce their budgets.

We have plenty of ministers at the cabinet table who are raising taxes and charges on those who are working.

It's about time we got someone in Social Welfare who has the guts to do what it takes to reduce spending, like is happening in the UK and Holland!

It can be done - but not apparently by Minister Joan Burton.

Problem is labour.
Remember how many wage supplements, add ons, etc that labour minister brendan howlin was going to cut after his exhasive review of the public sector wage bill ?
I think it was less than 5.

He had to be told to go back and revisit the whole thing.

mariaalice wrote: »

Just to note anyone receiving family income supplement are working and are the half of the population on welfare include those receiving pensions.

For the sake of clarity when any one on here states that half the population is on welfare they should brake It down to each type of support, as there is a tendency by some people to want to present it as half of the adult population of Ireland is s depended on social welfare for all their income.

You are trying the usual tactic of trying to make it sound less worse.
It is scary to think that half the population are in receipt of some form of state welfare, even if it is just some form of salry top up.

Add in the number in state employment to that figure and it is even scarier to think how many the private sector are supporting.

mariaalice

jmayo wrote: »

And an even bigger problem will be the pension one coming down the road in years to come.
Future generations are going to end up working a lot longer and end up getting even less when they do finish.



Problem is labour.
Remember how many wage supplements, add ons, etc that labour minister brendan howlin was going to cut after his exhasive review of the public sector wage bill ?
I think it was less than 5.

He had to be told to go back and revisit the whole thing.



You are trying the usual tactic of trying to make it sound less worse.
It is scary to think that half the population are in receipt of some form of state welfare, even if it is just some form of salry top up.

Add in the number in state employment to that figure and it is even scarier to think how many the private sector are supporting.

It is scary if you think about it, but I suppose the best way to think of it is as a form of income redistribution, that's the kind of modern welfare state we have, however student fees are 2000 at the moment how much do you think a third level education actually costs, so that's a form of income redistribution, but somehow a lot of people are blind to that and only see their tax's being used for welfare.

I pay so much tax and usc that I don't look at it anymore I just look at what I am taking home.

Geuze

mariaalice wrote: »

Just to note anyone receiving family income supplement are working and are the half of the population on welfare include those receiving pensions.

Yes, of course.

You may be suggesting that some people think "welfare = unemployed", which of course is untrue.

If I have time I will list the numbers for you.

Geuze

See table A8 for a breakdown of recipients across DSP schemes:

http://www.welfare.ie/en/downloads/Social%20Stats%20AR%202012_Section%20A.pdf


State Pensions of all types = 540,000

Working-Age people on income support = 543,000 - THIS IS THE ISSUE IN IRL

Working-Age on employment supports = 66,000

Illness/disability/caring = 287,000 - too high

FIS = 32,000


Total = 1,469,000 recipients.

Idbatterim

I thinks it's getting time for Enda to get rid of non-performing Ministers like Joan Burton, who can't or won't substantially reduce their budgets.

We have plenty of ministers at the cabinet table who are raising taxes and charges on those who are working.

It's about time we got someone in Social Welfare who has the guts to do what it takes to reduce spending, like is happening in the UK and Holland!

It can be done - but not apparently by Minister Joan Burton.

This is it though, Labour ideologically either dont see a problem with it or IF they do, it would be like Turkeys voting for Christmas.

For the sake of clarity when any one on here states that half the population is on welfare they should brake It down to each type of support, as there is a tendency by some people to want to present it as half of the adult population of Ireland is s depended on social welfare for all their income.

agreed, the break down is important, but the fact that over half the population are on one benefit or another, is pretty staggering!

pwurple

A Scoundrel wrote: »

If you don't like that you're free to join the dole heap, but of course, you'd be financially worse off.

Are you telling me that those who volunteer to give up jobs are eligible for anything at all? O RLLY?

You're losing a *maximum* of 30 quid

I think that the levels of financial illiteracy in this country are quite frustrating. I've explained this about 4 times already... There is both the drop (of 32 euro for 26 weeks) PLUS the tax differential. Usc is 7%, plus the other taxes...

Bottom line->It's over 1,500 euro of a cut. Maybe that's nothing to you, in which case a cheque would be nice. It's a few mortgage payments for me, cheers.


It is only example. My point is that the working are treated as an unlimited cash cow. We are frustrated no end by feeling that those who work less, or not at all, are treated better.

bigroad

A freind of mine ,who works on a building site in Dublin was telling me about a Polish worker that got a backdated cheque for his children of 5500 euro.This was a child allowance payment for children that live in Poland and have never been in ireland.
I cant understand why this cannot be stopped.
To make matters worse another polish worker comes up to my friend asking for help to fill out a child allowance claim form.I wont tell uz what my friend said to him.
This sort of claim culture is rampant .The worst part is all this cash is building houses and fueling the polish economy.
So we ,Ireland are borrowing money at high interest rates to build Poland.If our government had brains they would be even more dangerous.

StigmaMan

bigroad wrote: »

A freind of mine ,who works on a building site in Dublin was telling me about a Polish worker that got a backdated cheque for his children of 5500 euro.This was a child allowance payment for children that live in Poland and have never been in ireland.
I cant understand why this cannot be stopped.
To make matters worse another polish worker comes up to my friend asking for help to fill out a child allowance claim form.I wont tell uz what my friend said to him.
This sort of claim culture is rampant .The worst part is all this cash is building houses and fueling the polish economy.
So we ,Ireland are borrowing money at high interest rates to build Poland.If our government had brains they would be even more dangerous.

welcome to EU and multiculturalism.

AlekSmart

Geuze wrote: »

See table A8 for a breakdown of recipients across DSP schemes:

http://www.welfare.ie/en/downloads/Social%20Stats%20AR%202012_Section%20A.pdf

State Pensions of all types = 540,000

Working-Age people on income support = 543,000 - THIS IS THE ISSUE IN IRL

Working-Age on employment supports = 66,000

Illness/disability/caring = 287,000 - too high

FIS = 32,000

Total = 1,469,000 recipients.

This all neatly segways into David McWilliams rather prescient blog piece....well worth reading and attempting to come to terms with....

http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2013/04/04/the-mystery-of-disability

Mind you,it beggars belief how anybody manages to hold down a job here,such is our infirmity level ??

golfwallah

AlekSmart wrote: »

This all neatly segways into David McWilliams rather prescient blog piece....well worth reading and attempting to come to terms with....

http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2013/04/04/the-mystery-of-disability

Mind you,it beggars belief how anybody manages to hold down a job here,such is our infirmity level ??

Indeed .... but the most pertinent implication one can draw from articles like this is the lack of leadership from those on high to do anything about this issue (including even prompting public debate on it):

What is clear from the point of view of society is that people who are unfit for work because they develop an emotional, psychological or physical ailment are an economic resource that needs to be nurtured. It isn’t enough to give them a cheque every week and forget about them.

If it becomes clear that some cases are not legitimate and are due to fabricated or exaggerated ailments, then life will be more difficult for people who really are disabled because taxpayers will come to think of all people who are stressed, bullied, immobile or injured as faking it.

Discussions on these issues tend to descend very easily into one side screaming “welfare fraud” and the other screaming “legitimate need”. These set pieces rarely produce anything other than reinforcing initial prejudices. However, a reasoned discussion as to why an increasing number of the Irish workforce are deemed unfit to work would seem like a sensible conversation to have.

Given the staggering cost of social welfare, this is the kind of issue that should be addressed by government - starting with Minister, Joan Burton, whose utterances up to now have been around protecting the status quo.

Come on, Minister Burton, as the minister responsible for this unaffordable and avoidable spending, even a beginner could do better - and so could you!

coolshannagh28

Does this general level of entitlement stem from Labour being too long end too influential in government for the last two decades . Their policy has to be the roll out of the state and they have been extremely successful in doing so mainly because of the calibre of minister they place in the departments that really matter.
FF or FG have no one to match Ruarai Quinn ,Pat Rabbitte, Brendan Howlin or Joan Burton who are a semi permanent government and have used their time to very effectively enlarge the state sector . The result of this is a cushion placed under a huge chunk of society to the point where the rest cannot generate enough taxes to maintain it ,the sense of entitlement arises from this and will not change in the short to medium term while Labour hold the balance of power .
FG should have had conviction and formed a govt with independents or a minority govt and we just might have seen a roll back of the state and less entitlement and more independence.

Idbatterim

FG should have had conviction and formed a govt with independents or a minority govt and we just might have seen a roll back of the state and less entitlement and more independence.

Fingers crossed we might see this at the next election!

From todays indo...

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/tax-rate-too-high-for-those-on-32800-admits-noonan-29990940.html

Tax rate too high for those on €32,800, admits Noonan

DONAL O'DONOVAN – 08 FEBRUARY 2014

Finance Minister Michael Noonan has admitted that people with annual incomes of €32,800 should not be hit with the top rate of tax

The low income threshold where taxpayers here get hit with the top 41pc rate is a "tax on jobs", he said.

Lifting the income threshold where the higher rate kicks in is likely to be the focus of any cut in personal tax in Budget 2015, he said at a speech in Dublin yesterday.

Taxpayers here pay the highest tax rate once they are earning over €32,800 a year for a single person.

Overall tax rates here are not unusually high, but the income level where the top rate applies is "out of step" with other countries such as the UK, Mr Noonan said.

Farmer Pudsey

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

Does this general level of entitlement stem from Labour being too long end too influential in government for the last two decades . Their policy has to be the roll out of the state and they have been extremely successful in doing so mainly because of the calibre of minister they place in the departments that really matter.
FF or FG have no one to match Ruarai Quinn ,Pat Rabbitte, Brendan Howlin or Joan Burton who are a semi permanent government and have used their time to very effectively enlarge the state sector . The result of this is a cushion placed under a huge chunk of society to the point where the rest cannot generate enough taxes to maintain it ,the sense of entitlement arises from this and will not change in the short to medium term while Labour hold the balance of power .
FG should have had conviction and formed a govt with independents or a minority govt and we just might have seen a roll back of the state and less entitlement and more independence.

I do not think that these two statements bear up to reality. FF was in power for about 12 years. The present goverment is there only for 3 ish years. The reality is that even as this down turn started while trying to correct the present problems the FF government in 2008 when Brien Lenihann was Finance Minster gave a rise in SW payments while increasing taxes. The largest increases in SW& the health budget over the last decade were during FF terms in office.

It is James Reilly in health that is increasing the price of HI while not cutting spending in the health area. This is backfiring as over 1K people a week give up HI. Thre are those on this forum that advacot steep rises in PRSI while forgetting the levels of taxes and USC that middle income workers bear. I believe that the younger Labour TD are worse with no understanding of workers as opposed to the needs of the unempolyed. The Unions are no better forgetting to represent workers with there so called social agenda. We now need a new party that will represent workers not a more right wing idealogical government. This party need to put workers interest first.

The present fight over the next 10 years is to let inflation take away the present imbalance by not rising SW rates maybe with the exception of PRSI related benifits wheather they be unsomplyes, widow/er and OAP benifits. Even these should only match inflation. The cuts to side benifits should contiine and longterm welfare recipents should be made pay water charges etc. The government should increase the rent of social housing to the longterm unemployed to correct the imbalance of the property tax and reduce rental subsidity's

coolshannagh28

Definitely my opinion that Ireland and Europe have crept too far left over time even FF after incheydoney jumped on the bandwagon and I don't see who FG have to counter the present Labour heavyweights ,would agree that workers need to be protected especially low paid but there is a cushion of entitlement for huge swathes of society and some real austerity might solve this.

golfwallah

In response to pressure on state finances, changes are being made to reduce welfare spending in the UK and Holland.

For example, last September, Holland’s King Willem-Alexander

made his first annual appearance before parliament one to remember, with a speech effectively announcing the end of the generous Dutch welfare state.

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/934952a6-1fad-11e3-aa36-00144feab7de.html#axzz2skiiY6Zf

Increasing globalisation and an ageing population are the factors behind the move from the welfare state to a “participatory society”, in which citizens will be expected to take care of themselves (or create civil society solutions to welfare issues).

Part of these reforms also require the old, sick and elderly to do voluntary work as a way of giving something back to the community in return for welfare: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/netherlands/10353781/Old-sick-or-disabled-Dutch-people-will-be-asked-to-work-in-return-for-care.html

Welfare reform in the UK is also reported as being partly based on the Dutch model.

Isn’t it time we had a debate in Ireland about welfare reform before the next big global crisis forces us into a quick response with across the board cuts, as opposed to a well debated consensual approach?

Xidu

My parents in law sometimes offer help to the local Vicent de paul, there's this Polish guy, he came to Ireland with his wife long time ago when he made a lot of money on building house. But they spent all their money in holidays and stupid stuff. So now he lost his job and they are having a child. He often get Dunnes vouchers because he claims he has no money to buy food for his wife and child. And then my father in law has to drive them to Dunnes and send them back to their house. They get plenty second hand clothes for child and toys. My mother in law told me that the amount toys and clothes were piled up in their house. And they get free coal to heat up their house. One day my mother in law offered this Polish guy to paint their farm fence and going to pay him some money. This guy was complaining that it's a tough job and he is not used to it.

Icepick

Xidu wrote: »

My parents in law sometimes offer help to the local Vicent de paul, there's this Polish guy, he came to Ireland with his wife long time ago when he made a lot of money on building house. But they spent all their money in holidays and stupid stuff. So now he lost his job and they are having a child. He often get Dunnes vouchers because he claims he has no money to buy food for his wife and child. And then my father in law has to drive them to Dunnes and send them back to their house. They get plenty second hand clothes for child and toys. My mother in law told me that the amount toys and clothes were piled up in their house. And they get free coal to heat up their house. One day my mother in law offered this Polish guy to paint their farm fence and going to pay him some money. This guy was complaining that it's a tough job and he is not used to it.

And his nationality is relevant how?
Also, a private charity can give money to whoever they want.

srsly78

Xidu wrote: »

And then my father in law has to drive them to Dunnes and send them back to their house.

Why won't your father in law give them a lift back with the shopping?

Also, are you a private investigator or something?

pwurple

Xidu wrote: »

My parents in law sometimes offer help to the local Vicent de paul, there's this Polish guy, he came to Ireland with his wife long time ago when he made a lot of money on building house. But they spent all their money in holidays and stupid stuff. So now he lost his job and they are having a child. He often get Dunnes vouchers because he claims he has no money to buy food for his wife and child. And then my father in law has to drive them to Dunnes and send them back to their house. They get plenty second hand clothes for child and toys. My mother in law told me that the amount toys and clothes were piled up in their house. And they get free coal to heat up their house. One day my mother in law offered this Polish guy to paint their farm fence and going to pay him some money. This guy was complaining that it's a tough job and he is not used to it.

Breaking news, people who were thick with handling money a decade ago, continue to be thick with money.

mariaalice

I think a participation society is a great idea and is already happening with pensions the more you pay in the more you get back, I do think the model of welfare we has to change, however I doubt if reform of that alone will lower tax's this debate always concentrated on income type welfare to almost the exclusion of every thing else such as the cost of a health care, education, infrastructure endless clean water delivered to each house and so on, along with hundreds of other almost unnoticed state provided services.

The bottom line is if we want to live in a modern European state it is going to cost.

golfwallah

mariaalice wrote: »

I think a participation society is a great idea and is already happening with pensions the more you pay in the more you get back, I do think the model of welfare we has to change,

Agreed that the welfare model has to change. A start has been made but progress has been very slow. This is some of what the OECD had to say about it in their OECD Economic Surveys IRELAND 2013 (Overview):
http://www.oecd.org/eco/surveys/2013%20Economic%20Survey%20IRELAND_Overview_Eng_FINAL%2030%20Aug.pdf

Page 24

The Irish welfare system provides a critical and effective safety net, but it is essential to support the return of displaced workers to the labour market as the unique way to escape the risk of social exclusion. This involves a difficult trade-off between maintaining incomes at levels acceptable to Irish society and ensuring that people do not end up in welfare traps where the immediate income incentive to work is weak, locking them out of the long-term income and wider social benefits of employment. Prior to the recession passive labour market policies were accompanied with little monitoring and mutual obligation requirements. As the economic recovery strengthens, and employment prospects brighten, the emphasis should be re-geared towards active measures. It will become increasingly important to ensure stricter and rigorous mutual obligations regimes and to adjust the tax and welfare mix (discussed above) to reduce such traps. Welfare and tax adjustments should be made based on micro-based evidence that identify particular groups where the disincentive to work is high. For example, such evidence suggests that around 8% of the unemployed face a replacement rate of over 100%, often due to the receipt of housing related benefits that are available when in unemployment but rarely when in employment (Callan et al., 2012).

Replacement rate =

The Replacement Rate is the ratio of the claimants' weekly benefit amount (WBA) to the claimants' average weekly wage

http://workforcesecurity.doleta.gov/unemploy/ui_replacement_rates.asp

however I doubt if reform of that alone will lower tax's this debate always concentrated on income type welfare to almost the exclusion of every thing else such as the cost of a health care, education, infrastructure endless clean water delivered to each house and so on, along with hundreds of other almost unnoticed state provided services.

Agreed. Lots of other actions are required on these areas as well, many of which are also covered in the same OECD Report mentioned above. None of this is easy or universally popular to implement - but isn't that the job the electorate gave to the current "reforming" government?

The bottom line is if we want to live in a modern European state it is going to cost.

Of course it costs to run a modern European state. But the available resources are not unlimited and it's the job of the leadership of this country to provide the services we all expect in a cost effective manner that we can afford.

323

This link this morning seems to sum up just how totally ridiculous the system has become in Ireland.

The new poor in Ireland, €88,000 PAYE public sector worker told by Citizens Advice Bureau that entitled to a GP card and Family Income Support but would actually be better off working part time and taking benefits.

The_Honeybadger

323 wrote: »

This link this morning seems to sum up just how totally ridiculous the system has become in Ireland.

The new poor in Ireland, €88,000 PAYE public sector worker told by Citizens Advice Bureau that entitled to a GP card and Family Income Support but would actually be better off working part time and taking benefits.

I would be very interested to see the numbers on that. €88k is a very good salary, we had this in the past with the Garda on €70k who was feeding his children cornflakes only on certain days, and another guy in Kerry who was supposedly feeding his kids cardboard. It appears from the story that the couple have no childcare costs as she is a stay at home mom. Wtf are they spending €88k on, myself and my wife's combined gross is less than that and we manage fine with kids in crèche. They would also have a nice tax free lump each month in child benefit. I find the story odd and I'd be taking it with a pinch of salt. I'm not saying that there aren't problems with our welfare and tax systems but I don't believe the example in the article stacks up, sounds a bit he said / she said with no concrete numbers.

Idbatterim

a quick income tax calculator tells me that the husband would have a gross income of 57.5k, forget the headline figure, its an irrelevance, what they are left with, is what matters. The 57.5 is not including any other PS deductions, so yeah, I would see how with 6 kids if you have any sort of mortgage or other debt, that you could struggle... Thats the cost of FF buy everyone off policy, someone does have to pay for it, and its fairly blatant who is doing all the paying, anyway, I dont think we need fear for much longer, FG have said they will be raising the threshold for the marginal rate, hopefully for this coming budget in October, I think they realise the absolute piss t**e for what it is and I do expect them to do something about it...

As Mcwilliams has said, I understand why electorally it is difficult to roll back on promises or commitments, and there is no way I can see any further cuts to headline rates or an overhaul. But I do see them using any available funds for those that actually deserve it, i.e. used for job creation and to cut the tax burden on the coping classes, working poor and those who are more than comfortable enough, but immorally shafted non the less...


http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/income-tax-cut-a-priority-in-budget-says-enda-kenny-30005352.html

Boskowski

Seriously? 5k net each month. Even if you have a 2k mortgage thats 3k to live plus CB. Unless you're over your ears in debt how could you be struggling with that???

Farmer Pudsey

Boskowski wrote: »

Seriously? 5k net each month. Even if you have a 2k mortgage thats 3k to live plus CB. Unless you're over your ears in debt how could you be struggling with that???

When you are working, nothing is free. with 6 kids more than likly at least one is in college, even at 2nd level it is often costing at least 100/child in hidden fees, primary schools look for funds as well. School booketc all cost money. Biggest issue is often cost of working, if travelling any distance it may be costing you 150/ week between repayments, fuel and maintenance costs. The other issue with that may childern you would need a VW caravell as a farmily car. Even people carriers are horrendusly expensive. It is frightening the cost of running of transport in ireland. In the sticks there is no public transport. School transport for this family is more than likly over 1K/year

The_Honeybadger

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

When you are working, nothing is free. with 6 kids more than likly at least one is in college, even at 2nd level it is often costing at least 100/child in hidden fees, primary schools look for funds as well. School booketc all cost money. Biggest issue is often cost of working, if travelling any distance it may be costing you 150/ week between repayments, fuel and maintenance costs. The other issue with that may childern you would need a VW caravell as a farmily car. Even people carriers are horrendusly expensive. It is frightening the cost of running of transport in ireland. In the sticks there is no public transport. School transport for this family is more than likly over 1K/year

Agree with this, I think the main problem with this couple (if indeed they exist at all) is the lifestyle choices they have made. Their income is very good compared to most people, but having six kids in this day and age is madness unless you are very comfortable financially. Raising kids is just so expensive. That said they should still have 3.5k per month or thereabouts to play with even after a hefty mortgage is paid with cb taken into account. Not enough to live the life of Reilly, but it ain't poverty, and I seriously doubt he'd be better off on a three day week, foregoing 40% of his 88k salary for a small welfare payment does not stack up for me. The story is vague and sounds like bulls**t to me.

Farmer Pudsey

mickeyk wrote: »

Agree with this, I think the main problem with this couple (if indeed they exist at all) is the lifestyle choices they have made. Their income is very good compared to most people, but having six kids in this day and age is madness unless you are very comfortable financially. Raising kids is just so expensive. That said they should still have 3.5k per month or thereabouts to play with even after a hefty mortgage is paid with cb taken into account. Not enough to live the life of Reilly, but it ain't poverty, and I seriously doubt he'd be better off on a three day week, foregoing 40% of his 88k salary for a small welfare payment does not stack up for me. The story is vague and sounds like bulls**t to me.

I think the issue is that he has children ay 3rd level. Dropping his salary to about 50ish K will cost him about 15K due to hagh tax rate and if a PS the pension levy. Also it will cut his travel to work costs. However along with a small welfare payment he may access mortgage interest relief and 3rd level grants. With college registeration relief the 3rd level grand for two children would be about 13K.

however the sting in the tail is if the kids got part time jobs you would be back losing again. However I have seen people take this option on lower wages to access higher level grants.

pwurple

mickeyk wrote: »

Agree with this, I think the main problem with this couple (if indeed they exist at all) is the lifestyle choices they have made. Their income is very good compared to most people, but having six kids in this day and age is madness unless you are very comfortable financially.

If we create a country where only the long term unemployed can afford to have children, then what sort of society are we headed for? It's like a bizaar inverse eugenics policy.

Farmer Pudsey

pwurple wrote: »

If we create a country where only the long term unemployed can afford to have children, then what sort of society are we headed for? It's like a bizaar inverse eugenics policy.

This is a huge issue, there was a study out last yera that quoted the number of children raised in homes where no parent or sibling worked the figure was staggering. was it over 250K, 25% of the young population.

These children will be raised with an entitlement expectation rather than a work ethic. Not defending the case we are discussing but there is no consideration given to the massive costs that working family's encounter. The voulantary contribution at our local school ( a voulntary seconday school) is about 150 for the first child and 250 if you have two. Transition year is 0ver 750 euro. Now it is grand to TY is voluntary but again for working family's where kids may have entered the school system early leaves a lot of family's where it may be necessay rather than a child leaving 2nd level at just 17 years of age.

Again unemployed get waivers to School fees however not to TY. They get waivers to state exam ( I think around 100/exam). The Voluntary seconday school system is creaking due to the lesser funding it gets compared to community collegs or VEC ran secondary schools. School transport as I mentioned earlier in the case above would be well in excess of 1K/year.

The reality is s lot of working parents priortise education at all costs knowing the long term benifit. But for the family mentioned above if kids are at 2nd and 3nd level costs in the region of 25K/year would not be out of the question.

Cookie_Monster

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

I think the issue is that he has children ay 3rd level. .

why is that a problem, do these children not work while in college, pay their own way and contribute the the household income?
I can't understand the mentality that parents are expected pay for you while in college...

pwurple

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

why is that a problem, do these children not work while in college, pay their own way and contribute the the household income?
I can't understand the mentality that parents are expected pay for you while in college...

What were the registration fees when you went to college? Mine were 250 euro, i paid them, plus my lab/workshop fees. My parents got my books, they were a lot even though I got what I could second hand. I worked mostly for living money. Food, clubs and societies, bus, clothes. Plus I lived at home, so no digs cost.

You know what the registration fees are? 3,000 euro for 2015. So 12k for your average undergraduate 4 year course. Per child obviously. There is tax relief at 20% on the portion above 2250. So whoopdedo, 150 less tax per year.

You know who doesn't have to pay this? Anyone who qualifies for the Grant. Which also comes with maintenance money for living expenses. I wonder who qualifies for that....

Farmer Pudsey

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

why is that a problem, do these children not work while in college, pay their own way and contribute the the household income?
I can't understand the mentality that parents are expected pay for you while in college...

Grants are total household income reckonable. The full grant is worth inc registeration fee is worth about 9K you lose virtually euro for euro.

http://www.studentfinance.ie/mp9556/check-reckonable-income-limits/index.html

if you look through this and put in different senario's you will see the issue's.

Idbatterim

The college grants thing is a joke, simply implement a loan system and treat everyone the same, this discrimination against the hardest working and biggest contributors is becoming tiring...

everdead.ie

The good news is that 61,000 extra people are in employment now then last year taking 41,400 off unemployment. (This means nay-sayers it isn't all emigration)

Also worth noting that the public sector lost 5,500 jobs so the government isn't going down the boom route of employing people instead of having them on the dole.

The most important thing is 58,000 of these jobs are full time.

So despite what a lot of people think about welfare being too high (certainly it's unsustainable for us), the Irish peoples will to work has not been completely obliterated there are still a ton of people looking for work to improve their lot in life.


Hopefully we can accelerate this growth in employment and get the double whammy of taking people off the states unemployment payments and paying income and PRSI taxes.