Womans face slashed on OCS

Sir Humphrey Appleby

Muahahaha wrote: »

Not so sure about that, at least a Dublin Bus driver before told me that the 78a route is nicknamed 'The Junkie Express' because it serves areas with chronic heroine problems and ferries them into town every morning to get their methadone fix. That was a few years ago now but the way he told it was that a majority of people on the bus were junkies travelling on a free travel pass. He said they were grand in the mornings, all polite and everything but pure grief going back home in the evenings.

Anyway regardless of where they lived city centre methadone clinics are not a good idea. I work right beside the Pearse St one and in the last 6 months alone have witnessed several on street brawls.. One fight happened right in front of a bus load of 50 tourists who were waiting to get their bags and check into the Trinity Capital Hotel. Junkies were knocking lumps out of each other right there on the pavement whilst tourists scrambled back onto the bus and into the hotel for safety. The fact that all this occurred less than 30 metres from Pearse St Garda station showed me that they really couldn't give a toss. 50 tourists all gone back home telling their friends and family that Dublin is a dangerous place and that the fighting Irish stereotype is true. I felt embarrassed to be a local that day, the authorities really need to get a grip on this problem.

Methadone clinics are best placed in the areas in which the addicts live imo.

Obviously street brawls and anti-social behaviour should not be tolerated, but the scenes you describe are replicated outside pubs all over the city on a daily basis.

As for the old 78A, yup I travelled on it daily for over two years and it was a lunatic asylum on wheels, with drugs including heroin being smoked on it all the time. Thing is , most of those on it were addicts who were not on methadone. The figures for those receiving methadone treatment versus the number of addicts are quite stark, as can be evidenced from various reports including Merchants Quay.

Getting back to O'Connell Street, it should be clear to everyone that a much greater Garda presence is needed there and in the surrounding areas to combat the thugs, snatchers, addicts, and general ne'er do wells that are a blight on the area.

SebBerkovich

I just can't walk down O'Connell Street any more, as well as feeling quite unsafe - it's too depressing.

Personally i'm all for just leaving the street to it's own devices, take out any reason the average dubliner might want to go there, move in all the addict services and open up a few more McDonalds'.... add a perimeter fence... That might leave us with a bit of an Escape from New York scenario but it'll contain the junkies, which would be great.... until someone has to go in there to rescue Michael D. Higgins...

i think i digressed a bit there... but my point is this - Dublin is always going to have junkies shouldn't we just actively cultivate a part of the city where they can exist and do the least damage. and why not O'Connell Street.

Ole Rodrigo

SebBerkovich wrote: »

I just can't walk down O'Connell Street any more, as well as feeling quite unsafe - it's too depressing.

Personally i'm all for just leaving the street to it's own devices, take out any reason the average dubliner might want to go there, move in all the addict services and open up a few more McDonalds'.... add a perimeter fence... That might leave us with a bit of an Escape from New York scenario but it'll contain the junkies, which would be great.... until someone has to go in there to rescue Michael D. Higgins...

i think i digressed a bit there... but my point is this - Dublin is always going to have junkies shouldn't we just actively cultivate a part of the city where they can exist and do the least damage. and why not O'Connell Street.

O'Connell street has a lot of potential.

If this problem were to be tackled properly, the HSE would outsource the issue, all drug addicts would be treated in one place where all necessary services would be located. Constitutional rights to liberty should not trump citizen responsibility in this instance. If they don't co-operate with rehab and obeying the law, tough love is the only solution. Nobody has the right to hang around in a state of half life/ half death, selling drugs with impunity and intimidating the general public. Not to mention depressing them. The current solution is only sustaining their behaviour.

If we look at the way asylum seekers are handled, I don't see why something similar can't be done for junkies - one roof where all services are located until their case is handled ( not to imply they are both the same sort of problem ). Also, f you look at how other cities have handled it, they seem to have more success - Copenhagen, Vancouver etc.

arybvtcw0eolkf

The Hill Billy wrote: »

And with all due respect also, but you've changed your tune. If memory serves me correct it was not too long ago that you were calling people out over gross generalisations about drug addicts in the area.

I doubt that.

Lux23

I would agree that putting them all in the one place could work, but O'Connell is a no go, it's too important to transport in Dublin.

There's empty industrial estates close enough to the city, they should be used.

The_B_Man

Would there be any way to try move away from having anybody living in the city centre?
Like for example, anyone getting social housing in the flats in town, be put on the list for housing in the suburbs somewhere instead, and just leave the ones in the city empty for a year. Do them up then, and convert them to apartments for professionals working close by. It would save a lot of this hassle and violence, and cut down on traffic as people would be walking to work.

Ole Rodrigo

The_B_Man wrote: »

Would there be any way to try move away from having anybody living in the city centre?
Like for example, anyone getting social housing in the flats in town, be put on the list for housing in the suburbs somewhere instead, and just leave the ones in the city empty for a year. Do them up then, and convert them to apartments for professionals working close by. It would save a lot of this hassle and violence, and cut down on traffic as people would be walking to work.

You mean like they did in Paris?

Mixed use - both council and privately owned - has proven the most successful model. Besides this is not a council housing problem, its a drug problem. Unfortunately for residents of council housing, junkies and ner-do-wells have the same address, so they get tarnished with that brush.

I'd also question the label of ' professional ' for many office drone jobs but thats for another thread. Half my office are ranters on boards :pac:

Fukuyama

Charlee Grumpy Seashore wrote: »

With all due respects I think you're way out of touch with the conditions in Dublin city center these days.

From the junction of North Earl Street/Henry St (GPO) to O'Connell Bridge is a cesspit of junkies, dealers, beggars, pickpockets/snatchers inter mingling with tourists and locals a like.. The place is crawling with filth.

Well put.

Have found myself on abbey street quite a bit recently. I notice a new Centra has opened up in what used to be the CIE offices. It looks really clean and new. Yet the first thing I thought when I was it was "how long until the place is in bits".

Any of the side streets off O'Connell (and the back alleys) are crawling with people shooting heroin, dealing and living rough.

Business in the area suffer from the constant hassle from these lowlifes. They have to employ two security guards for each store. Who's paying for that? We are. It's tacked onto the prices.

I feel slightly ashamed when tourists are taking snaps of the GPO, Jim Larkin statue etc.. and are getting hassled by zombies.

One part of me wants to overhaul the area. But it'd be in bits again within a few years.

SimonQuinlank

The_B_Man wrote: »

Would there be any way to try move away from having anybody living in the city centre?
Like for example, anyone getting social housing in the flats in town, be put on the list for housing in the suburbs somewhere instead, and just leave the ones in the city empty for a year. Do them up then, and convert them to apartments for professionals working close by. It would save a lot of this hassle and violence, and cut down on traffic as people would be walking to work.

Just turf less well off people out of sight to the suburbs like they did back in the 60's and 70's with areas like Ballymun,Tallaght,Clondalkin etc?worked well the first time sure.

Fukuyama

The Hill Billy wrote: »

I'm not out of touch. I agree - 'cesspit' is a great description. And I think you've proved my point - it is not just drug addicts causing the problem, it is also "dealers, beggars, pickpockets/snatchers".

This isn't Oliver Twist. The guys snatching bags/phones, the guys begging and the guys dealing - are all hooked on heroin. The petty crime is done as a way to fund their addiction and is a vicious cycle.

I get the 122 a fair few time a week outside the Londis on O'Connell Street - just at the junction with Abbey Street. I'd say at least once a week I see some kind of deal being done in a little huddle. It's plain as day. And that's just me barely paying attention any more. I'm sure if I stood in place for an hour and really watched I'd see all kinds.

When garda start arriving onto the street in the luminous jackets they all shuffle over O'Connell street bridge to D'Olier street and hang around the FAS office there.

May god help you if your pull out a bit of change for the bus. They'll be all over you like a flock of pigeons. "Can I have a euro mate?" ... "Any spare change buddy?" :rolleyes: :mad:

Cienciano

I haven't been on O'Connell Street in a long time (7-8 years, but about a month ago I had to walk down it in the evening (about 7pm on a saturday). Bloody hell, don't think I ever saw such a collection of scumbags. I needed money, but it was the first time ever in Dublin I decided not to use an ATM because of the people about.

mattjack

ror_74 wrote: »

O'Connell street has a lot of potential.

If this problem were to be tackled properly, the HSE would outsource the issue, all drug addicts would be treated in one place where all necessary services would be located. Constitutional rights to liberty should not trump citizen responsibility in this instance. If they don't co-operate with rehab and obeying the law, tough love is the only solution. Nobody has the right to hang around in a state of half life/ half death, selling drugs with impunity and intimidating the general public. Not to mention depressing them. The current solution is only sustaining their behaviour.

If we look at the way asylum seekers are handled, I don't see why something similar can't be done for junkies - one roof where all services are located until their case is handled ( not to imply they are both the same sort of problem ). Also, f you look at how other cities have handled it, they seem to have more success - Copenhagen, Vancouver etc.

Are Copenhagen and Vancouver outsourced ?
you cant force people into rehab , what you could do though is look at the way we provide our services.

Ireland is one of the few western world countries that treats addiction and mental ill health as separate issues , most countries operate an integrated approach which I think you mean by "under the one roof",

However from start to finish for an addict to get completely clean takes quite a period of time starting with first getting onto a clinic , then stabilising , then reaching the target of between 30 to 40 mls of methadone no mean feat in itself.
From there an assessment , then offer of a bed and depending on the detox anything up to 17 weeks , after that two years minimum aftercare.
Achieving all this without a slip, illness,housing or legal issues is quite difficult.
Im not sure you could outsource this if you in mind private treatment comes in at about 10 grand I think for a six week treatment.


We also fail miserably in our methadone provision , Ireland is comfortable stabilising people on methadone and leaving it at that without a thought regarding a detox off it.We have in and around 24000 people on heroin,stabilised on methadone and then the few trying to detox.
Our state likes methadone , its a relatively cheap way of managing a problem , albeit poorly.

Im being a bit disingenious here ... I work in these types of services.

Uaru

The Hill Billy wrote: »

@All: Don't get me wrong - I think that O'Connell Street is in dire need of cleaning up. But it is not just the junkies that are the problem. There are all manner & class of assholes that have dragged the area down to the state that it is currently in. I just thought it unfair to blame the whole sorry lot on one particular group & especially finger-point at them for this specific incident.

The dealers are there because the junkies are there, the junkies are there because the clinics are there. The crimes against the public are committed by the junkies. Move the clinics and the problem goes away, to somewhere else anyway.

Most of these degenerates don't live around the city. I live between several blocks of inner city flats on the south side and I rarely see junkies going in and out. Most are coming in from the suburbs.

Lux23

But if they getting treatment in a clinic, why are they buying drugs on the street?

Fukuyama

Lux23 wrote: »

But if they getting treatment in a clinic, why are they buying drugs on the street?

Having a 'drug problem' brings with it many others. Poverty, societal outcast etc.. etc...

I guess they have a little sub-culture community type thing. A lot of them will know every other junkie in town. I find that when a junkie gets onto a bus I'm on he'll instantly recognise the other junkies on the bus. They've better social lives than most people!

A lot of them will trade their methadone for cash... or simply retain the connections for petty crime reasons (pushing, stealing etc...).

So, being a junkie is as much about the little gangs they form in town as it is about getting out of their bin on heroin.

Lux23

Well how would moving the treatment centres help? It's not like they are there all day.

Ole Rodrigo

mattjack wrote: »

Are Copenhagen and Vancouver outsourced ?
you cant force people into rehab , what you could do though is look at the way we provide our services.

Ireland is one of the few western world countries that treats addiction and mental ill health as separate issues , most countries operate an integrated approach which I think you mean by "under the one roof",

However from start to finish for an addict to get completely clean takes quite a period of time starting with first getting onto a clinic , then stabilising , then reaching the target of between 30 to 40 mls of methadone no mean feat in itself.
From there an assessment , then offer of a bed and depending on the detox anything up to 17 weeks , after that two years minimum aftercare.
Achieving all this without a slip, illness,housing or legal issues is quite difficult.
Im not sure you could outsource this if you in mind private treatment comes in at about 10 grand I think for a six week treatment.


We also fail miserably in our methadone provision , Ireland is comfortable stabilising people on methadone and leaving it at that without a thought regarding a detox off it.We have in and around 24000 people on heroin,stabilised on methadone and then the few trying to detox.
Our state likes methadone , its a relatively cheap way of managing a problem , albeit poorly.

Im being a bit disingenious here ... I work in these types of services.

What I mean by under one roof is one location where all the services that they spend their day wandering around to are located - mental health, addiction, food, shelter, work rehabilitation etc. Why couldnt it all be in once treatment centre? ...for the worst cases anyway. Is 24 000 a correct figure ? Thats incredible.

I dont know, am just throwing out a few ideas. I'd be surprised of HSE beauracracy wasn't part of the problem. That process you describe for addiction treatment sounds as bad as the addiction itself, they dont have a hope really.

Hilly Bill

Lux23 wrote: »

I would agree that putting them all in the one place could work, but O'Connell is a no go, it's too important to transport in Dublin.

There's empty industrial estates close enough to the city, they should be used.

Spike Island and let them fend for themselves.

Walking down Talbot street is like being in a Zombie film.

Uriel.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Spike Island and let them fend for themselves.

Walking down Talbot street is like being in a Zombie film.

Maybe open up a mew treatment centre at the bottom of the liffey? 15 years working in the city day in day out, and honestly I feel it is much worse now than it ever was in that period.

I even tend to use atms now that are in doors (shops etc bank of Ireland indoors on ocs etc). Madness really that there's not more of clampdown. But given our judicial system, prison system and general laziness to do anything I fear it'll only get worse. Imagine what the place would be like if we had an underground metro station on the street

Heartland

Been back living in Dublin City Centre now for the past 6 months having been away for about 8 years (I'm from DCC) and it is definitely worse than I've ever known. Late 80's was rough but this is something else. Never seen so many beggars and homeless people (and I'm only talking indigenous Irish). And the aggressive begging is a new phenomenon. It was never as 'in your face' before. I still have no problem using ATM's anywhere but if I wasn't a fit(ish), young(ish) man I'm not sure I'd be so confident.

Kiltennel

The Hill Billy wrote: »

@All: Don't get me wrong - I think that O'Connell Street is in dire need of cleaning up. But it is not just the junkies that are the problem. There are all manner & class of assholes that have dragged the area down to the state that it is currently in. I just thought it unfair to blame the whole sorry lot on one particular group & especially finger-point at them for this specific incident.

I'd normally be the first to call people out on sweeping generalisations but as someone who commutes through O'Connell street twice a day I'll have to say the vast, vast majority of problems I see are junkie related. The last 3 incidents of violence I have seen have all involved junkies, the only open and blatant drug dealing I have seen is between junkies while in the majority of cases where I have seen shouting matches going on between groups, it is generally between addicts. Other than the aggressive Roma beggars, I'd say junkies are by far the main problem. The only incident I have seen with kids was a group of 2-3 idiots shouting racist remarks at two black lads. A more obvious Garda presence on the corner of O'Connell Street / North Earl Street and O'Connell Street / Abbey street corners I think would do wonders as they're the two worst corners for it.

BFDCH.

mattjack wrote: »

Ideally your treatment should be in your area , but the vast amount of services provided for people in addiction are in the city.

Think of the broader picture , an addict just doesnt need his drug treatment ... if he's homeless his hostel is in the city along with his methadone clinic aswell as needle exchanges.His psychiatric care is in the city too along with specialised medical and dental care and respite services.

This is all without thinking about drop in centres , food services and a myriad of other services including counselling drug CE schemes etc..

sounds lovely; free drugs, accommodation and food, all in the city center

a big, concrete prison should be built down the bogs, ship them there, wean them off the drug, give them their psychiatric care, then get them working in the local community. if they relapse then back to the prison with them and start over.

RebelButtMunch

BFDCH. wrote: »

sounds lovely; free drugs, accommodation and food, all in the city center

a big, concrete prison should be built down the bogs, ship them there, wean them off the drug, give them their psychiatric care, then get them working in the local community. if they relapse then back to the prison with them and start over.

Well thought through!

SimonTemplar

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Walking down Talbot street is like being in a Zombie film.

https://maps.google.ie/maps?q=talbot+street+dublin&ll=53.350164,-6.258034&spn=0.001162,0.006968&hnear=Talbot+St,+Dublin&gl=ie&t=m&z=18&layer=c&cbll=53.350124,-6.25817&panoid=GEAahCAZxKjLB_6Q_0zZPg&cbp=12,64.41,,1,14.9

The_B_Man

SimonQuinlank wrote: »

Just turf less well off people out of sight to the suburbs like they did back in the 60's and 70's with areas like Ballymun,Tallaght,Clondalkin etc?worked well the first time sure.

Exactly. I live in Tallaght and I'd prefer that than to have the city ruined for ourselves and for tourists.

Instead of having dodgy places in the suburbs that you can't fix, and also having a lot of the city being dodgy, move them to the suburbs and decrease the total number of dodgy areas.

You'd also have less idiots hanging around the city, with nothing better to do than cause trouble. If they're going to cause trouble either way, I'd rather it be out in the suburbs. They're also less likely to get the bus all the way into town to cause hassle, or partake in opportunistic crime.

Overall, the city would improve for people working there, shopping there, and visiting there as tourists. Sure you'd upset a few peoples feelings, but as a country we should all be together on the same team, and as with any team, some people are gonna be dropped.

SimonQuinlank

But that's lazily admitting defeat and not even bothering to try and solve the problem.Are you a TD by any chance?!

I grew up in an area of North Clondalkin in the late 80's that was devastated by the approach you suggest we use again.I'd hate to see it happen to another community at the expense of keeping tourists happy.

Addicts will continue to come into town anyway because it's the location where the opportunity for petty crime,begging and buying of various drugs most exists.The only way you'll lessen that opportunity is by improving every aspect of treatment,detox,psychiatric and training facilities, lowering the number of drug and methadone dependent people who need to steal and buy drugs in the CC.

Out of sight,out of mind has not worked, and it will not work.

P.Walnuts

Are the majority of posters on this thread retired urban planners from the 60's by any chance?

The Big Smoke

Five years living in Dublin and I've only been hassled once. Knackers only understand one thing and that's resistance. Behave sheepishly and they'll walk all over you.

mattjack

BFDCH. wrote: »

sounds lovely; free drugs, accommodation and food, all in the city center

a big, concrete prison should be built down the bogs, ship them there, wean them off the drug, give them their psychiatric care, then get them working in the local community. if they relapse then back to the prison with them and start over.

a big prison down the bog , just like Thornton Hall.......... that panned out ok.

mattjack

The Big Smoke wrote: »

Five years living in Dublin and I've only been hassled once. Knackers only understand one thing and that's resistance. Behave sheepishly and they'll walk all over you.

Fourty four years , born and lived in the South inner city ....no hassle ever , still working in the city centre as is mrs Mattjack...

Is this a pissin' contest now ?