Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14 Mod warning post #718

J. Marston

Well, I was expecting us to drop points so to end up with 3 points is a huge bonus but my God, that performance was absolutely dire.

De Gea nearly cost us the game (but then saved us admittedly so I'll leave him off).

Evans and Smalling, they're really nothing special when the likes of Graham and Sagbo can trouble them all day long.

Rafael is a crock, another reason why I'd prefer Coleman over him.

Evra doesn't know how to defend.

Fletch played well in fairness.

Cleverley, anonymous.

Valencia, idiot.

Young, poor but set up the winner.

Rooney, saved our arses again.

Welbeck, did okay.

beno619

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Hope Welbeck gets a deserved bolloxing by Moyes.

Just hoofed ball that caused so many problems for us the last few minutes.

No Brain.

Must have been watching a different match. He was one of the few players that was brave enough to keep the ball.

Quandary

Pure stupidity and unusually petulant from Valencia.

Utd were rubbish in the 2nd half. Cleverley was horrendous. Cross for the OG aside, Young was beyond terrible. Valencia did nothing positive and lost one of his only redeeming features being his discipline with that sending off.

3 points on the board but we were so so lucky.

The_Kew_Tour

beno619 wrote: »

Must have been watching a different match. He was one of the few players that was brave enough to keep the ball.

You must have been cause he hoofed the ball carelessly the last 10 minutes.

Absolute rubbish

Nalz

beno619 wrote: »

Must have been watching a different match. He was one of the few players that was brave enough to keep the ball.

Like Neville stated, Welbecks overall play was good. Nothing amazing but doesn't a grilling, far from rubbish.

Again Chico gets away with murder, three times he had a chance to lay it into space (twice for a one on one for Welbeck and Rooney respectively) and either clumsily fell over the ball or picked the wrong pass.

Mikeyt086

Good: Young, Fletch
Better: Rooney
Best: Welbeck, thought he was class

Bad: Rafael is fecking injured again, thats a big problem.
Worse: The shakiness in the side, typified by Evans' disaster for the 2nd goal.
Worst: Antonio Valencia. Played poorly while out of position, but an absolutely moronic sending off that nearly cost us an absolutely essential 3 points, forget the hair-dryer, I hope David Moyes beats the **** out of him.

beno619

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

You must have been cause he hoofed the ball carelessly the last 10 minutes.

Dont think United played any football in the last 10 mins, put down to TC23.

Burlap_Sack

Lucky to come through that one....Can't wait for RVP to be back hopefully putting these lesser teams to the sword.

MagicIRL

16/1 to win the league. Interesting Everton are 28/1. Just seen it pop up on BT Sport

Nalz

J. Marston wrote: »

De Gea nearly cost us the game (but then saved us admittedly so I'll leave him off).

Evans and Smalling, they're really nothing special when the likes of Graham and Sagbo can trouble them all day long.

Rafael is a crock, another reason why I'd prefer Coleman over him.

Evra doesn't know how to defend.

Fletch played well in fairness.

Cleverley, anonymous.

Valencia, idiot.

Young, poor but set up the winner.

Rooney, saved our arses again.

Welbeck, did okay.

I'd agree with this,sums it up well although I felt Clev & Fletch did okay first half. Nothing from Clev in second half. Chico was disappointing on the ball. Carrick needs to get fit and into the 11 quickly. Cannot but feel that Kagawa would have been suited to this game today. Young didn't get much ball but when he did he was very average.

Nolars

get everyone back fit and a world class midfielder in January and our season could be looking alot different.

Paul Tergat

beno619 wrote: »

Dont think United played any football in the last 10 mins, put down to TC23.

Put it down to 1 man? What a crock of ****. Carrick was on for that whole time too and is known for putting his foot on the ball. Where was he? Stop using Clev as a scapegoat.

Paul Tergat

Burlap_Sack wrote: »

Lucky to come through that one....Can't wait for RVP to be back hopefully putting these lesser teams to the sword.

This can only happen if we change our mentality when we go ahead

The_Kew_Tour

Carrick and RVP will make a big difference. Vidic too. Fellaini if he got his butt in gear.

Pro. F

beno619 wrote: »

Dont think United played any football in the last 10 mins, put down to TC23.

Lol. What did you think of Carrick's contribution then?

beno619

Paul Tergat wrote: »

Put it down to 1 man? What a crock of ****. Carrick was on for that whole time too and is known for putting his foot on the ball. Where was he? Stop using Clev as a scapegoat.

He's coming back from injury and actually tried, Cleverley kept passing back to defenders which resulted in a hoof, one look at what Rooney and Welbeck do in similar positions says it all.

MANUTD99

J. Marston wrote: »

Well, I was expecting us to drop points so to end up with 3 points is a huge bonus but my God, that performance was absolutely dire.

De Gea nearly cost us the game (but then saved us admittedly so I'll leave him off).Made 1 mistake all be it a bad one

Evans and Smalling, they're really nothing special when the likes of Graham and Sagbo can trouble them all day long. Evans is terrible with defending aerial balls. I rate Smalling highly though. Nothing special you say? who scored our first goal

Rafael is a crock, another reason why I'd prefer Coleman over him.I agree his injury trouble is worrying but he is a world class RB

Evra doesn't know how to defend.Didn't have a great game to be fair

Fletch played well in fairness.Played well for somebody who has not played a lot of first team football. Didn't dicate play on put much pressure on the oppositon

Cleverley, anonymous.Wasn't great. Cannot create any influence on a game regardless of how good/bad opposition is

Valencia, idiot.agree

Young, poor but set up the winner.As much as I dislike him I though he did ok, more so when he switched to RW

Rooney, saved our arses again.I think more than Rooney had a part to play in getting 3 points

Welbeck, did okay.Agree but he has played so much better in his last 3 games for us. Deserves his place ahead of Chico

Thank **** my accumulater is still aliver

Rayne Wooney

Was that not Carrick's first game back from injury in almost 2 months?

Burlap_Sack

Clev either shy's from the ball or passes backwards...An upgrade is needed pronto.

Paul Tergat

beno619 wrote: »

He's coming back from injury and actually tried, Cleverley kept passing back to defenders which resulted in a hoof, one look at what Rooney and Welbeck do in similar positions says it all.

Tried? Tried what?

So clev is trying to retain possession. Criticising him for that? If there are no options and the defenders are hoofing it what do you want Clev to do with it? Sick of this scapegoating bs

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Was that not Carrick's first game back from injury in almost 2 months?

Its not like he played a full 90. He came on for the last 10 and was fresh. He was put on to try get his foot on the ball. Didnt do that imo

beno619

Burlap_Sack wrote: »

Clev either shy's from the ball or passes backwards...An upgrade is needed pronto.

He's possibly the worst CM in the premier league, was decent in the last few games and the first half today. But he really just isn't good enough to be considered anything more than a squad player. He lacks the basic ability and vision. He doesn't work hard enough to compensate for his lack of ability IMO.

Your Airbag

Clev offered what he usually does. Simple, short and safe passing to the better players. He didn't offer any creative threat and he usually doesn't.

He played his limited game safely and in an ideal world we would have a better MF option but there is no way Clev is responsible for the pressure at the end or the poor display.

magnumbud

Burlap_Sack wrote: »

Clev either shy's from the ball or passes backwards...An upgrade is needed pronto.

Don't see this only passing backwards stuff. He made a number of long range passes forward today.

If he keeps hitting the target like he has been the last few games forcing saves he'll rack up a bit of a tally.

Paul Tergat

beno619 wrote: »

He's possibly the worst CM in the premier league, was decent in the last few games and the first half today. But he really just isn't good enough to be considered anything more than a squad player. He lacks the basic ability and vision. He doesn't work hard enough to compensate for his lack of ability IMO.

Possibly the worst CM in the prem but could be considered a squad player. Proof you are talking ****

beno619

Paul Tergat wrote: »

Tried? Tried what?

So clev is trying to retain possession. Criticising him for that? If there are no options and the defenders are hoofing it what do you want Clev to do with it? Sick of this scapegoating bs

From the few touches he had I though he tried to hold onto the ball and move it forward.

I would like Clev to turn on the ball and face the opposition goal, possibly take a step or two forward and try and find a winger or forward.

Watch the highlights tonight and you'll see how many Hull chances came of the back of a Cleverley backpass.

Nalz

beno619 wrote: »

He's possibly the worst CM in the premier league, was decent in the last few games and the first half today. But he really just isn't good enough to be considered anything more than a squad player. He lacks the basic ability and vision. He doesn't work hard enough to compensate for his lack of ability IMO.

He makes it his job to retain possession by finding space to receive the ball, but in non critical and deep areas. It's not pointless but it doesn't directly result in a slick move or cut open teams. I've seen him the odd time pull off the hollywood ball and he does cover a lot of ground... but he hasn't fulfilled the potential we and the United staff I presumably expected.

I expected a slick box to box player - his on loan seasons suggested so, but what we got is an honest tidy and very ordinary CM.

Manchester United needs better in there. Rooney dropping back, Fletch and Carrick back and things might look a little rosier. Ando out, Clev a squad playe, possible new signing and Fellaini...... well we'll just have to wait and see!

Liam O

beno619 wrote: »

He's possibly the worst CM in the premier league, was decent in the last few games and the first half today. But he really just isn't good enough to be considered anything more than a squad player. He lacks the basic ability and vision. He doesn't work hard enough to compensate for his lack of ability IMO.

Just shows how little you actually watch him. He works very hard and is often almost single handedly up against a 2 or 3 man midfield. He is expected to shield the defense but also be the creative influence in a team that immediately plays long balls wide from CB or the anchor. Despite this he gets into good positions going forward and always gets in the face of the opposition. To call him even remotely possibly the worst in the league is jokeworthy on your part.

Burlap_Sack

I hope he does a ramsey and honestly do believe he has the potential to offer a lot more but it's been to long waiting now.

Paul Tergat

beno619 wrote: »

From the few touches he had I though he tried to hold onto the ball and move it forward.

I would like Clev to turn on the ball and face the opposition goal, possibly take a step or two forward and try and find a winger or forward.

Watch the highlights tonight and you'll see how many Hull chances came of the back of a Cleverley backpass.

Hold on here. Are you saying that he directly gave it to the opposition or others lost it?

Clev does turn and give the ball when required. He will often try and ping it out to the wingers (this is what Moyes seems to have instructed him, and the team in general). He was on the end of a move today with a decent shot. It's completely unjust criticism of him. It's a problem with the team at large and how we are being setup to play these days

Professional Griefer

Worst cm in the PL. :pac:

n32

In fairness to Carrick he hasnt played since the Arsenal game in early november and its very hard to come into a game cold when everyone else is warmed up and in their stride

Burlap_Sack

Professional Griefer wrote: »

Worst cm in the PL. :pac:

Although I wouldn't say he's the worst I don't think he'd start for at least the top 8 teams in the league which says a lot in itself.

beno619

Liam O wrote: »

Just shows how little you actually watch him. He works very hard and is often almost single handedly up against a 2 or 3 man midfield. He is expected to shield the defense but also be the creative influence in a team that immediately plays long balls wide from CB or the anchor. Despite this he gets into good positions going forward and always gets in the face of the opposition. To call him even remotely possibly the worst in the league is jokeworthy on your part.

He doesn't do enough with the ball and doesn't work hard enough, but thats just an opinion. We have played a lot of average sides with average midfielders and I would take a lot of them over Clev.

Considering midfield has been highlighted as are biggest weakness I though most of this went without saying. Again this is just an opinion.

Paul Tergat

n32 wrote: »

In fairness to Carrick he hasnt played since the Arsenal game in early november and its very hard to come into a game cold when everyone else is warmed up and in their stride

It's not really criticism of Carrick to be fair. Its just he was brought on, fresh against a team who has played 80 mins and asked to control the game, keep the ball and see us through. He didn't do that imo.

And if we want to use the 'cold' argument then it just goes to show further the task Clev had. Dealing with 3 different midfield partners, 1 being a CM who hasnt started for **** knows how long, 1 who is a brilliant forward and certainly not a CM and the other who is 'cold'.

Pro. F

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Was that not Carrick's first game back from injury in almost 2 months?

Yes it was his first game back. Does it being his first game back mean he can't have been at fault for the loss of control?

Carrick was anonymous in possession for the 15 minutes when he was on, the period where we really went under the cosh. In that same period Cleverley passed it more times (14 passes out of 15 attempts) than any other player on the pitch, nearly three times as many passes as Carrick (5/5). Yet some people are trying to claim that Cleverley was the reason we lost control of possession.

This just proves that no matter what Cleverley does, he will be blamed by people who are looking for a scapegoat.

beno619 wrote: »

He's coming back from injury and actually tried, Cleverley kept passing back to defenders which resulted in a hoof, one look at what Rooney and Welbeck do in similar positions says it all.

This is completely untrue. You made a silly claim and now you are making things up to try and justify it.

Your Airbag

Arguments about who was the worst player in MF and about who caused most of the late pressure.

Big lists of player impressions with negative impressions about most.

I know it wasn't tikky takka or anything like it lads but we won 3 points whilst two nil down during an away fixture. Enjoy it a little.

beno619

Paul Tergat wrote: »

Possibly the worst CM in the prem but could be considered a squad player. Proof you are talking ****

At his best he's a squad player and does well against awful sides, but when push comes to shove and we need someone to grab hold of the ball and drive us forward maybe even dictate a game he looks very poor and worse than counterparts playing for lesser sides.

Pro. F

I wonder did Moyes have some fitness concerns about Young today. Other than that sub all of Moyes' subs were positive and understandable for me today.

lordgoat

Pro. F wrote: »

Yes it was his first game back. Does it being his first game back mean he can't have been at fault for the loss of control?

Carrick was anonymous in possession for the 15 minutes when he was on, the period where we really went under the cosh. In that same period Cleverley passed it more times (14 passes out of 15 attempts) than any other player on the pitch, nearly three times as many passes as Carrick (5/5). Yet some people are trying to claim that Cleverley was the reason we lost control of possession.

This just proves that no matter what Cleverley does, he will be blamed by people who are looking for a scapegoat.



This is completely untrue. You made a silly claim and now you are making things up to try and justify it.

Carrick had at least 3 blocks and interceptions in the time he was on.

I don't thnik Clev was as bad as being made out, Rooney and Wellbz should have controlled the ball more when bringing it out of defence but both were probably knackered after the work they put in previously...

Overall we came back well but should have got a fourth and made it easier in the last 15.

K4t

Everton a goal down and Howard sent off. Brilliant.

Not too concerned now with how we won today, it's a huge 3 points just need to move on. It's hard to legislate for those two goals at the start, one which was a complete freak.

One worrying thing is the lack of Kagawa. It's getting ridiculous at this stage that when we're crying out for creativity in midfield in a match he's not even considered. Is he really good enough?

RasTa

Pro. F wrote: »

I wonder did Moyes have some fitness concerns about Young today. Other than that sub all of Moyes' subs were positive and understandable for me today.

He was injured alright, could barely walk before being taken off

Paul Tergat

beno619 wrote: »

At his best he's a squad player and does well against awful sides, but when push comes to shove and we need someone to grab hold of the ball and drive us forward maybe even dictate a game he looks very poor and worse than counterparts playing for lesser sides.

Pro F has kindly thrown in the stats (care to tell me where from mate??). Maybe time to start your backtracking now.

What we want is to retain the ball late on. Cleverley was the most effective at doing that. Why he is now at fault is beyond me. If everyone made the same number of completed passes, i.e. we retained the ball, we wouldnt have anywhere near that amount of pressure put onto us at the end.

He clearly has his limitations and I think we need better players in there. However, he is receiving way too much criticism and its completely unjust. You are failing at arguing the point

tallaghtmick

Lallana 2 assists already..... Sign him up!

beno619

Pro. F wrote: »

Carrick was anonymous in possession for the 15 minutes when he was on, the period where we really went under the cosh. In that same period Cleverley passed it more times (14 passes out of 15 attempts) than any other player on the pitch, nearly three times as many passes as Carrick (5/5). Yet some people are trying to claim that Cleverley was the reason we lost control of possession.

This just proves that no matter what Cleverley does, he will be blamed by people who are looking for a scapegoat.

This is completely untrue. You made a silly claim and now you are making things up to try and justify it.

So Cleverley had the most passes in that 15 minute period.

Where they positive passes that helped us take control of the game or 5 yard passes to defenders that put us under more pressure ?

I think that stat strengthens my argument.

Red Crow

Cleverley wasn't that bad today. But he's completely average and has never shown any ability to suggest that he can become a top CM. He's way to average to be a Manchester United midfielder. He's a mid table PL player. Nobody can stand over the guys ability as he has very little ability. He's as average as it gets and I'm being nice to the guy as he spends a lot of his time on the pitch whinging and moaning at his teammates when he himself is often caught out of position, poor first touch etc.

He offers us very little and is probably at best a lower range squad player. He should not be starting for Manchester United and anyone that thinks he should be playing in this side needs a reality check.

Pro. F

lordgoat wrote: »

Carrick had at least 3 blocks and interceptions in the time he was on.

I don't thnik Clev was as bad as being made out, Rooney and Wellbz should have controlled the ball more when bringing it out of defence but both were probably knackered after the work they put in previously...

Overall we came back well but should have got a fourth and made it easier in the last 15.

Making blocks and interceptions is certainly important. But it doesn't help you hold onto possession once you've done the defensive bit. We couldn't hold on to the ball in that period and Carrick's anonymity in possession was an important factor in that.

I know Carrick was just coming back from injury and that could well explain his struggles. But people are ignoring the fact that Carrick offered so little in possession and instead criticising Cleverley for what he did with the ball.

The_Kew_Tour

tallaghtmick wrote: »

Lallana 2 assists already..... Sign him up!

Have him in my FF team. It says 1 on that. Hope you're right:)

beno619

Paul Tergat wrote: »

Pro F has kindly thrown in the stats (care to tell me where from mate??). Maybe time to start your backtracking now.

What we want is to retain the ball late on. Cleverley was the most effective at doing that. Why he is now at fault is beyond me. If everyone made the same number of completed passes, i.e. we retained the ball, we wouldnt have anywhere near that amount of pressure put onto us at the end.

He clearly has his limitations and I think we need better players in there. However, he is receiving way too much criticism and its completely unjust. You are failing at arguing the point

He had more opportunity's than anyone to move the ball forward and relieve pressure, his negative passes didnt help and we got battered towards the end.

lordgoat

Pro. F wrote: »

Making blocks and interceptions is certainly important. But it doesn't help you hold onto possession once you've done the defensive bit. We couldn't hold on to the ball in that period and Carrick's anonymity in possession was an important factor in that.

I know Carrick was just coming back from injury and that could well explain his struggles. But people are ignoring the fact that Carrick offered so little in possession and instead criticising Cleverley for what he did with the ball.

A massive part of it is where your are on the pitch, sometimes you have to make a block but don't get control of the ball. I don't remember any misplaces passes from Carrick, I remember him sitting deep and keeping the defensive shape, Clevs was a bit further forward and alot more mobile explaining why he got more of the ball.

As a whole the team sat too deep and invited pressure, normal enough for an away team after coming from 2 down, sit deep and see it out.

As i said earlier, i would put the blame on the strikers/outlet players for not getting the ball and bringing it forward.

But hey 3 points. 3 more against Norwich and it's a good run...


Also Adnan today was poor. Defensively he was all over the place.

MANUTD99

Cleverley is such a average CM. He would never get a game for any of our big rivals. He is not even good enough as a squad player because he can't even influence games where a squad player is meant to. Last week at West Ham at Old Trafford he couldn't even get in there and dictate play

He may try, he may have came through youth system but he is simple not good enough to be at United.