Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14 Mod warning post #718

Your Airbag

Pro. F wrote: »

Carrick was anonymous in possession for the 15 minutes when he was on, the period where we really went under the cosh. In that same period Cleverley passed it more times (14 passes out of 15 attempts) than any other player on the pitch, nearly three times as many passes as Carrick (5/5). Yet some people are trying to claim that Cleverley was the reason we lost control of possession.

This just proves that no matter what Cleverley does, he will be blamed by people who are looking for a scapegoat.

You love these very basic stats. They are very basic and don't tell the whole story. How many of those passes were in the danger areas instead of getting it away or making a creative pass? How many put the recieving player under pressure or how many were to the defense meaning we had to build again and invited Hull upon us?

I'm not saying the Clev was muck or needs to be made the scapegoat because we did win after all but its his constant safety first approach to the game the makes people dislike him. Again he wasn't creative today he was his usual self.

Clev was not responsible for our problems today, look at Evans for that. Actually there was many other bad displays over Clevs but he didn't add much besides one shot to the attacking side of the team.

J. Marston

Everton and Newcastle losing.

Bad for my accumulator, good for United.

tallaghtmick

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Have him in my FF team. It says 1 on that. Hope you're right:)

Livescore says both so hopefully, he could do a job for us.

beno619

Red Crow wrote: »

Cleverley wasn't that bad today. But he's completely average and has never shown any ability to suggest that he can become a top CM. He's way to average to be a Manchester United midfielder. He's a mid table PL player. Nobody can stand over the guys ability as he has very little ability. He's as average as it gets and I'm being nice to the guy as he spends a lot of his time on the pitch whinging and moaning at his teammates when he himself is often caught out of position, poor first touch etc.

He offers us very little and is probably at best a lower range squad player. He should not be starting for Manchester United and anyone that thinks he should be playing in this side needs a reality check.

Ding Ding Ding !

Pro. F wrote: »

Making blocks and interceptions is certainly important. But it doesn't help you hold onto possession once you've done the defensive bit. We couldn't hold on to the ball in that period and Carrick's anonymity in possession was an important factor in that.

I know Carrick was just coming back from injury and that could well explain his struggles. But people are ignoring the fact that Carrick offered so little in possession and instead criticising Cleverley for what he did with the ball.

Im criticizing Cleverley because he did have the ball and could have made an impression on the game in the crucial last 15 minutes. Were you happy with his use of the ball and do you think that he could of relieved pressure on the side by being positive ?

Zico

Red Crow wrote: »

Cleverley wasn't that bad today. But he's completely average and has never shown any ability to suggest that he can become a top CM. He's way to average to be a Manchester United midfielder. He's a mid table PL player. Nobody can stand over the guys ability as he has very little ability. He's as average as it gets and I'm being nice to the guy as he spends a lot of his time on the pitch whinging and moaning at his teammates when he himself is often caught out of position, poor first touch etc.

He offers us very little and is probably at best a lower range squad player. He should not be starting for Manchester United and anyone that thinks he should be playing in this side needs a reality check.

He's the archetypal post-'92 graduate. Earnest, mediocre and underwhelming. It's almost like academy players have been selected on the basis of their similarities to Gary Neville since then.

Pro. F

lordgoat wrote: »

A massive part of it is where your are on the pitch, sometimes you have to make a block but don't get control of the ball. I don't remember any misplaces passes from Carrick, I remember him sitting deep and keeping the defensive shape, Clevs was a bit further forward and alot more mobile explaining why he got more of the ball.

As a whole the team sat too deep and invited pressure, normal enough for an away team after coming from 2 down, sit deep and see it out.

As i said earlier, i would put the blame on the strikers/outlet players for not getting the ball and bringing it forward.

Yeah, I meant to say that I agree with you that the forwards didn't do nearly enough in that spell.

Sitting deep to hold the shape doesn't completely excuse a CM not demanding more of the ball and keeping possession moving. It's half his job to get on the ball and link up the rest of the team, Carrick didn't do that very much and it was a period when we needed it. But it gets ignored because people like to think that he is something special.

lordgoat wrote: »

Also Adnan today was poor. Defensively he was all over the place.

Nah, he did okay. It's not like he had a reliable fullback to work with at any point.

beno619

Pro. F wrote: »

Carrick didn't do that very much and it was a period when we needed it. But it gets ignored because people like to think that he is something special.

He came on as a sub after 2 months out ? If he made 15 useless passes he would be criticized but generally uses the ball well.

Pro. F

I've got to run into town, so I'll reply later this evening to the posts responding to me.

Hank Scorpio

Should be made captain

MANUTD99

Pro. F wrote: »

I've got to run into town, so I'll reply later this evening to the posts responding to me.

Cannot wait to see your stats on Cleverley's 100% pass ratio to Fletcher when 5 yards behind him and asking him for the ball

beno619

Two clips to sum up his defensive contribution and "high" workrate.

Al Capwned

Oh jesus please not the Sandro goal discussion again...

Liam O

Not this again :rolleyes:

Irish94

Never mind 4th place, we should really be pushing on now to retain our title.

8 points behind at the worst with 20 games left to play; Carrick, Flecther, Vidic and RVP returning.

We really are in a strong position compared to a few weeks ago, especially with a lot of the big teams playing each other in the next two weeks, a few teams are going to be dropping points.

A lot more confident now, then a few weeks back.

Rayne Wooney

Abandon thread

beno619

Al Capwned wrote: »

Oh jesus please not the Sandro goal discussion again...

Haha wasnt a member of the soccer forums then, sounds like some craic was had though :pac:

My bad.

Nalz

Lads Cleverley is a slightly above average CM, nothing more. A good squad player for United who gets overally criticized.
I wouldn't blame him for the teams performance today and please don't bring up that Spurs Sandro goal again!

Robson99

Good result considering we were 2 zip down. Think criticism of Cleverly is harsh. People are saying Fletcher had a good game but he was no better or worse than Cleverly. Carrick was so so when he came on. We all know we need 2 world class middle of the park players. This was again highlighted when Rooney dropped into the middle to day. He was excellent during that period. Fletcher, Carrick and Cleverly are good squad players to have but we are crying out for 2 class players in the middle

Welbeck played well imo but Hernandez was poor. Should have played a team mate in on two occasions and there was a good chance the game would have been killed off. Super save from Dave at the end

J. Marston

What's wrong with bringing up the Sandro goal?

Al Capwned

J. Marston wrote: »

What's wrong with bringing up the Sandro goal?

Check out the four and a half thousand posts debating whether Cleverley's defensive work was up to scratch or not after the last time it was posted...

beno619

Robson99 wrote: »

Good result considering we were 2 zip down. Think criticism of Cleverly is harsh.

The Cleverley criticism is based on the last 2nd half or the game and particularly the last 20 minutes where we were under a lot of pressure, he saw a lot of the ball and in my opinion his use of it put the team under pressure as opposed to relieving it.

Robson99

beno619 wrote: »

The Cleverley criticism is based on the last 2nd half or the game and particularly the last 20 minutes where we were under a lot of pressure, he saw a lot of the ball and in my opinion his use of it put the team under pressure as opposed to relieving it.

I think if he played the ball up to Hernandez it would have come back just as quick. To be fair to Cleverly he does try to keep possession and is a tidy passer. Criticizing him for passing sideways and backwards when we are winning and have no one up front up top to hold it up is unfair.

Jimmy Iovine

J. Marston wrote: »

What's wrong with bringing up the Sandro goal?

Because most people on here refuse to back down from their opinions and admit that they're wrong.

That's alright in a normal conversation but on here hundreds more are inconvenienced.

Cantona's Collars

At least Liverpool aren't top of the table anymore.

Oregano_State

beno619 wrote: »

The Cleverley criticism is based on the last 2nd half or the game and particularly the last 20 minutes where we were under a lot of pressure, he saw a lot of the ball and in my opinion his use of it put the team under pressure as opposed to relieving it.

I think Pro F. said he completed 14 out of 15 passes in the last 15 or 20 minutes of the game today. If that stat is legit, I don't see any room for a logical argument that Cleverly brought pressure on us.

There were 9 other players on the pitch after Val got the red card. It's incredibly harsh to single out Cleverly for abuse. I thought the whole team got nervous, stopped playing with confidence, didn't attack, and we were very lucky to escape with the win.

I don't think Cleverly is the answer to our CM problems, but he's an honest, valuable, and decent player.

beno619

Robson99 wrote: »

I think if he played the ball up to Hernandez it would have come back just as quick. To be fair to Cleverly he does try to keep possession and is a tidy passer. Criticizing him for passing sideways and backwards when we are winning and have no one up front up top to hold it up is unfair.

Not sure about that, if the passes were good Chicha can do a decent job of holding on to the ball. We also had two wingers and Rooney.

Sure he looks tidy when he shirks responsibility by passing to a defender.

beno619

Oregano_State wrote: »

I think Pro F. said he completed 14 out of 15 passes in the last 15 or 20 minutes of the game today. If that stat is legit, I don't see any room for a logical argument that Cleverly brought pressure on us.

He had more opportunities to play positive passes and move the ball into the Hull half. He was negative and the ball stayed in our half. We had no control of the game in a period were Cleverley touched the ball more than any other United player.

15 five yard back/sideways passes did not help.

Robson99

beno619 wrote: »

Not sure about that, if the passes were good Chicha can do a decent job of holding on to the ball. We also had two wingers and Rooney.

Sure he looks tidy when he shirks responsibility by passing to a defender.

His passes sideways and backwards were good going by the stats.. I would rather have him on the ball than fletcher or anderson

macadam

Another poor performance from Man U today but it was a dog fight from the word go we are not the force we once were and teams like Hull etc realise this and get stuck in from the start, we really need to spend in January defence and midfield need tightening up big time.

beno619

Robson99 wrote: »

His passes sideways and backwards were good going by the stats.. I would rather have him on the ball than fletcher or anderson

Fletchers use of the ball was much more positive, both are superior players one obviously cant stay fit which has been a shame.


On another note what are boardsie's opinions on Saha ?

A lot of my admittedly young friends who are United fans seem to forget how good / important he was for us before he started having injury problems.

MANUTD99

Oregano_State wrote: »

I think Pro F. said he completed 14 out of 15 passes in the last 15 or 20 minutes of the game today. If that stat is legit, I don't see any room for a logical argument that Cleverly brought pressure on us.

There were 9 other players on the pitch after Val got the red card. It's incredibly harsh to single out Cleverly for abuse. I thought the whole team got nervous, stopped playing with confidence, didn't attack, and we were very lucky to escape with the win.

I don't think Cleverly is the answer to our CM problems, but he's an honest, valuable, and decent player.

We are one of the biggest clubs in the world and we have to defend average players playing for us with statements like this. He might be ok for Newcastle or Everton. If we want to have serious ambition going forward he is nowhere near good enough and not even for a sub.

We would be played off the park by the a lot of teams in England and Europe at the minute. As soon as you start getting into a comfort zone with statements like Cleverely is a good squad player puts warning signs for me.

I was there when we were not good and finishing mid table and FA Cup was our hope for a trophy. Don't accept average because it is not good enough for a club with our current stature. You can never take your foot of the pedal when things are going well

sky88

I think the thing about cleverly is that even the people thst defend him is hes average or slighty above hes just not good enough to be starting in the team

tallaghtmick

Sooooo Cabaye and Lallana would be ok signings :pac:

Your Airbag

Oregano_State wrote: »

I think Pro F. said he completed 14 out of 15 passes in the last 15 or 20 minutes of the game today. If that stat is legit, I don't see any room for a logical argument that Cleverly brought pressure on us.

No it doesn't. Those passes in the context of where he was playing them is they key. Passing to under pressure wingers or back to defenders, inviting the team chasing the game upon us is not a stat to be upheld as good, that stat has no context to the situation.

Pro F posts a lot of those stats when jumping to Clevs defence, he often compares rates of completed passes to other players on the field. The logic that more completed passes = better MF display is completely flawed and lacks insight into the game.

If a player tries and ambitious defenece splitting pass that doesn't come off, most of the play bar maybe a striker is behind the ball, including the player who didn't pull off the ball and ready to challenge to win the ball back. If a player passes the ball out wide to a player who now has to try and beat two players ahead of him thats not moving the team forward in an attacking sense. If a player passes back to the defense only to put them under pressure its hurting the team not helping.

I don't blame Clev for the final pressure today, he simply did what he usually does, he moved the ball around in a short and basic fashion, nothing really good came of it, he is a link man to a player who can do something good for us. Creativness or having an explosive pass or urge to push forward is not something we should expect from Clev because he simply doesn't have it in his game. For now with the injuries he does a safety first job in the MF, once we get players back or new signings he will drop down the pecking order and there are many players who can offer more the Clev.

I don't know where this idea Clev was at fault for Hulls final push has come from? Moyes change put us into "have what you hold" mode. Of course having a player in Clevs position who could push through and pick out key attacking passes would have helped and in that respect he didn't help us during that period but he was no more or no less to blame than those around him. They were all holding on.

newballsplease

That last 10min from Utd was a joke. Moyes needs to cop the f**k on in terms of trying to hold onto what they have. Blessed Hull didnt equalise.
Sitting back like that was like watching Rep of Ireland.... And it usually ends up with a goal conceded.

Team should have gathered possesion, got into their half and seen the game off that way.
The difference between Moyes and Fergie was as clear to see today from that last 10 mins.

beno619

Your Airbag wrote: »

I don't know where this idea Clev was at fault for Hulls final push has come from? Moyes change put us into "have what you hold" mode.

Agreed with everything apart from this. Moyes brought on Adnan, Chicha and Carrick. They could hardly be classed as negative changes.

Rooney had to drop incredibly deep to make up for Clev and was doing the job of two players. Too many excuses are being made for Clev yes he's clearly not good enough, but he doesn't work hard enough or try to be positive.

When you compare him to someone like Fletcher ,neither of them are particularly gifted but Fletch works hard, has great positional sense. plays facing the opposition goal and takes responsibility when in possession of the ball and doesn't take the easy option of passing back to defenders.

He's only in the team because Fletch and Ando have been injured.

Your Airbag

beno619 wrote: »

Agreed with everything apart from this. Moyes brought on Adnan, Chicha and Carrick. They could hardly be classed as negative changes.

The first two subs were positive.

Adnan was a forced sub and done very early. Chica on was very positve yes and we got the winner 4mins after his introduction. I'm talking about everything after that as we had the lead and it was up to us to either hold it or go for a fourth.

Carrick on for Young with about 10 mins left was a holding move. Thats when we were under the most pressure.

beno619

Your Airbag wrote: »

The first two subs were positive.
Carrick on for Young with about 10 mins left was a holding move. Thats when we were under the most pressure.

It was a holding move that made sense, although I though Adnan would have come off at the time.

2 positive changes and another that made sense imo.

Lord TSC

tallaghtmick wrote: »

Sooooo Cabaye and Lallana would be ok signings :pac:

I like Lallana. Don't think he'll be a world class signing, but think he'd offer more than Young and Val. And I'd take anyone in the midfield department right now...

hufpc8w3adnk65

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

I like Lallana. Don't think he'll be a world class signing, but think he'd offer more than Young and Val. And I'd take anyone in the midfield department right now...

I'm going too try and not even buy into the rumour mill this year! We'll be linked too so many players it'll drive me nuts like the last one. Whilst I wanted Fellaini too join and it seemed like the worst kept secret in football that he was joining all this "it's on" "it's off" in mental!

n32

Because its unlikely we ll bother going after a player in january who is cup tied for the champions league, what players (realistic options obviously not the likes of aguero, suarez etc) from premier league clubs would improve us?
Lallana, Shaw, Cabaye, Barkley, Baines, Coleman etc
Who else would people here be interested in

KH25

n32 wrote: »

Because its unlikely we ll bother going after a player in january who is cup tied for the champions league, what players (realistic options obviously not the likes of aguero, suarez etc) from premier league clubs would improve us?
Lallana, Shaw, Cabaye, Barkley, Baines, Coleman etc
Who else would people here be interested in

We should be in for Gundogan and/or Reus, regardless of cup ties or anything like that. We will not win the CL this year, but those 2 (or similar) could really change things in terms of the league and domestic cups.

n32

KH25 wrote: »

We should be in for Gundogan and/or Reus, regardless of cup ties or anything like that. We will not win the CL this year, but those 2 (or similar) could really change things in terms of the league and domestic cups.

having gundogan and reus would be dream stuff.

gundogan - carrick

januzaj - rooney - reus

RVP

yabadabado

n32 wrote: »

Because its unlikely we ll bother going after a player in january who is cup tied for the champions league, what players (realistic options obviously not the likes of aguero, suarez etc) from premier league clubs would improve us?
Lallana, Shaw, Cabaye, Barkley, Baines, Coleman etc
Who else would people here be interested in

Cabaye is probably the player from the list who would give us the best improvement for whats needed.Couple of the other lads aren't needed or won't get into starting xi.

I wouldn't care if a top class player was bought in who was cup tied,if one becomes available should be signed cup tied or not.

Vic Vinegar

yabadabado wrote: »

I wouldn't care if a top class player was bought in who was cup tied,if one becomes available should be signed cup tied or not.

Exactly this! he'd only be cup tied for 2 - 4 champions league games this season.

Robson99

Between Jan and the Summer would love to see Gundogan, Reus and one from Modric, Kroos or Cabaye in that order. Would possibly mean Kagawa going the other way but so be it. Fantasy world:D

jebus84

Ilkay Gundogan isnt cup tied as his been injured alot this year,great player but would be hard to see him leaving in january

newcastle would prob want 25 million for cabaye would moyes pay it?

tallaghtmick

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

I like Lallana. Don't think he'll be a world class signing, but think he'd offer more than Young and Val. And I'd take anyone in the midfield department right now...

+1 on that, think his game would get better with us.

Your Airbag

From Saturday we have 5 games in two weeks,

8 games in the next four weeks when you include the FA and carling cup. That is going to push the squad on the fitness and injury front.

The_Kew_Tour

If we can win every game up to Stamford Bridge it would be great.

Our injuries are so annoying.