Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14 Mod warning post #718

Rayne Wooney

The league is the priority, I don't care if a player is cup tied, if not great but we need top players to finish 4th or above.

Your Airbag

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

If we can win every game up to Stamford Bridge it would be great.

Our injuries are so annoying.

We need our best XI in all the league games but we are in a Carling Cup semi and the prospect of a UTD/CITY final is within reach. We have Swansea in the FA Cup.

Its hard to de-prioritise those cup games.

Any word on the Raf injury?

Martin Walker

How did Fletch go today?
Do you guys think that a center of him and Carrick could work if both we're fit?

Robson99

Martin Walker wrote: »

How did Fletch go today?
Do you guys think that a center of him and Carrick could work if both we're fit?

Not near good enough for the big games

Martin Walker

Robson99 wrote: »

Not near good enough for the big games

Who do you mean by big games?


Edit; meant who not what.

Robson99

Martin Walker wrote: »

Who do you mean by big games?


Edit; meant who not what.

City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Scouse, Knockout rounds of CL

Martin Walker

Robson99 wrote: »

City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Scouse, Knockout rounds of CL

Cool cool just making sure. Personally considering our current predicament I would consider all our games "big games".

So with that in mind would the pairing of Fletcher/Carrick be ok for competing against what you would say are smaller teams?

I never seen the game today and am interested in seeing Fletcher again.

tallaghtmick

Out of the players we have I assume is what was meant.

beno619

Robson99 wrote: »

Not near good enough for the big games

It's been good enough in the past, though other teams have improved.

kryogen

Any news on Raf yet? Is it his groin?

Robson99

beno619 wrote: »

It's been good enough in the past, though other teams have improved.

The past. We spend to long thinking that because it worked in the past it should work now. Fletcher and Carrick are good options to have as squad players but we need 2 proper top class middle of the park players.
If people think that Fletcher coming back is going to seriously improve our midfield then they are in for a reality check fairly quickly

Martin Walker

Robson99 wrote: »

If people think that Fletcher coming back is going to seriously improve our midfield then they are in for a reality check fairly quickly

I don't know if anyone really thinks that tho. It's good to see him back. Adds numbers and options but he was never the world beater we all want.

Robson99

Martin Walker wrote: »

I don't know if anyone really thinks that tho. It's good to see him back. Adds numbers and options but he was never the world beater we all want.

Ya its great to see him back and he is a good addition to the squad

beno619

Robson99 wrote: »

If people think that Fletcher coming back is going to seriously improve our midfield then they are in for a reality check fairly quickly

Obviously not but he will improve us, we missed him dearly in the second final vs Barcelona.

A world class midfielder is still priority .

Rayne Wooney

I'm sure Moyes will try get whatever business done in the first week or two of the window after the disaster in the summer.

Really curious now about who we're going to be in for.

Pro. F

Your Airbag wrote: »

You love these very basic stats. They are very basic and don't tell the whole story. How many of those passes were in the danger areas instead of getting it away or making a creative pass? How many put the recieving player under pressure or how many were to the defense meaning we had to build again and invited Hull upon us?

I'm not saying the Clev was muck or needs to be made the scapegoat because we did win after all but its his constant safety first approach to the game the makes people dislike him. Again he wasn't creative today he was his usual self.

Clev was not responsible for our problems today, look at Evans for that. Actually there was many other bad displays over Clevs but he didn't add much besides one shot to the attacking side of the team.

I don't care if posters dislike Cleverley, I'm not arguing that anybody should like him. I'm pulling Beno619 up on his ridiculous claim that Cleverley was the reason we were under the cosh at the end of the game. The fact that Cleverley completed more passes than any other player on the pitch in that period, and over twice as many as his CM partner, would give you a clue that Beno is wrong.

But don't worry about that stat if you don't think it has enough context, just carry on with what you said yourself: "there is no way Clev is responsible for the pressure at the end..." We both agree about this.

With regards to what he added creatively throughout the game, well I think he did a good job along with Fletcher in controlling possession for long periods of the game, moving the ball forward, linking attacks and was a key part in the team performance that managed to score three goals against one of the toughest defences around at the moment. You don't agree, no surprise.

Pro. F

beno619 wrote: »

He had more opportunities to play positive passes and move the ball into the Hull half. He was negative and the ball stayed in our half. We had no control of the game in a period were Cleverley touched the ball more than any other United player.

15 five yard back/sideways passes did not help.

You talk as if Cleverley was given the opportunity to pass the ball and nobody else was. The reason he made more passes than anybody else was because he got on the ball more than anybody else, because he showed for it more than anybody else. That's kind of important for a midfielder.

Previously I said that he made 14 out of 15 passes in the last 15 minutes. I read the time line wrong, that was for the last 20 minutes. He played 12 passes out of 13 in the last 15 minutes. That's still more than any other player on the pitch and twice as many as Carrick who you seem to think was fine in possession. link

Cleverley played: 3 passes forwards; 5 passes sideways and 4 passes backwards.

Carrick played: 2 passes forwards; 2 passes sideways and 1 pass backwards.

beno619

Think we should sign Cabaye, a few people have mentioned he's nasty but so was Keane, Viera ect. Even if it means paying a little over the odds.

He will improve us leaps and bounds, if one thing's clear there is no value in the transfer market.

beno619

Pro. F wrote: »

You talk as if Cleverley was given the opportunity to pass the ball and nobody else was. The reason he made more passes than anybody else was because he got on the ball more than anybody else, because he showed for it more than anybody else. That's kind of important for a midfielder.

Very rare for Cleverley,but nice he actually looked for the ball for once.I agree its a key quality

Previously I said that he made 14 out of 15 passes in the last 15 minutes. I read the time line wrong, that was for the last 20 minutes. He played 12 passes out of 13 in the last 15 minutes. That's still more than any other player on the pitch and twice as many as Carrick who you seem to think was fine in possession. link

Cleverley played: 3 passes forwards; 5 passes sideways and 4 passes backwards.

Carrick played: 2 passes forwards; 2 passes sideways and 1 pass backwards.

25% of Clevs passes relieved pressure on the defence, 40% of Carricks did coming from the bench.

He had more opportunities than any other United player to get the ball forward and put the Hull defence under pressure.

The 20 mins of the match were he touched the ball more than any United player Hull assumed greater control and more possession.

But since you like stats and meaningless numbers here are some more.



Wow ! more touches and higher pass accuracy than Huddlestone !

Yet somehow I think Huddlestone left an impression on the game and was at the centre of everything good about Hull today.

supersean1999

beno619 wrote: »

25% of Clevs passes relieved pressure on the defence, 40% of Carricks did coming from the bench.

He had more opportunities than any other United player to get the ball forward and put the Hull defence under pressure.

The 20 mins of the match were he touched the ball more than any United player Hull assumed greater control and more possession.

But since you like stats and meaningless numbers here are some more.



Wow ! more touches and higher pass accuracy than Huddlestone !

Yet somehow I think Huddlestone left an impression on the game and was at the centre of everything good about Hull today.

Switch The two of them and see Who has more passes. Its merely luck. I dont like slating utd players but clev is very easy to replace. Ferdinand and scholes is à different matter

Pro. F

beno619 wrote: »

1 Very rare for Cleverley,but nice he actually looked for the ball for once.I agree its a key quality

2 25% of Clevs passes relieved pressure on the defence, 40% of Carricks did coming from the bench.

3 He had more opportunities than any other United player to get the ball forward and put the Hull defence under pressure.

4 The 20 mins of the match were he touched the ball more than any United player Hull assumed greater control and more possession.

1 It's not rare for Cleverley at all. He is regularly in the top two or three passers on the pitch when he plays, so he obviously shows for the ball a lot. Not surprising that you don't notice though.

2 So the fact that Carrick came off the bench fresh for that last period while Cleverley had already been playing for 75 minutes is supposed to have made it easier for Cleverley? This is really genius stuff you are coming out with. And LOL at trying to claim that a higher percentage of forward passes means that Carrick did more even though his actual number of forward passes was fewer.

3 Again, Cleverley wasn't just gifted those opportunities to pass the ball. He got them by showing for the ball and he used them to keep possession when the the team were struggling to hold on to it. He did that more than any other United player in that period.

4 Are you just going to ignore the previous 75 minutes now then?

beno619 wrote: »

But since you like stats and meaningless numbers here are some more.



Wow ! more touches and higher pass accuracy than Huddlestone !

Yet somehow I think Huddlestone left an impression on the game and was at the centre of everything good about Hull today.

As we've seen, what you think and what was actually the case are two very different things.

Pro. F

supersean1999 wrote: »

Switch The two of them and see Who has more passes. Its merely luck. I dont like slating utd players but clev is very easy to replace. Ferdinand and scholes is à different matter

According to that site, whoscored.com, Cleverley had twice as many passes as Huddlestone. 80 passes to 40. Do I win a prize?

beno619

Pro. F wrote: »

According to that site, whoscored.com, Cleverley had twice as many passes as Huddlestone. 80 passes to 40. Do I win a prize?

Haha numbers mean nothing without context that was the point of my last post Huddleston was fantastic today. While Cleverley 80 back/sideways passes were worthless.

You seem to have no answers to my last post ?
Anyway he's not worth arguing over won't feature too much past this season.

Edit didn't see your response.

One of the main criticism leveled at Cleveley is he doesn't look for the ball enough.

Yes he plays lots of 5 yard negative passes. This helps the team how ?

My issue was his use of the ball in the most difficult period of the match, when push came to shove a resorted to to back and sideways passes.

MANUTD99

Smalling to RB and Vidic/Evans to play CB against Norwich. Januzaj and Young to play the wings? Maybe Fabio to get a look in?

Whats the word on RVP and Nani?

Mitch Connor

Personally I felt the passing options for any player in the last 15 was shocking. - we had no out balls, camped in our own half, it was 'negitive' or a hoof forward as the two options most of the time.

Given the setup of the team, and tactics, I don't think cleverley did badly at all. Yes we could easily enough upgrade from him but that doesn't mean he is kleberson or djemba djemba out there. He gets far too harsh criticism IMO.

DM_7

beno619 wrote: »

Haha numbers mean nothing without context that was the point of my last post Huddleston was fantastic today. While Cleverley 80 back/sideways passes were worthless.

You seem to have no answers to my last post ?
Anyway he's not worth arguing over won't feature too much past this season.

Edit didn't see your response.

One of the main criticism leveled at Cleveley is he doesn't look for the ball enough.

Yes he plays lots of 5 yard negative passes. This helps the team how ?

My issue was his use of the ball in the most difficult period of the match, when push came to shove a resorted to to back and sideways passes.

Passes that retain possession are not negative. Keeping possession is not negative play.

Towards the end of a game keeping possession with a pass to a team mate is far better use of the ball than forcing a forward pass that isn't actually on.

Obviously the best option, when available, is to move the ball forward to a player who in turn will have the chance to retain possession.

To do that the player, in this case Cleverley needs a good options ahead of him. He needs a player in an advanced position available to take the ball and that player would also need to have support players around him or space to move into when receiving the ball, otherwise he will lose the ball.

Let's not pretend that is what Cleverley (or other midfielders, defenders) had on front of them in the last 15 minutes today.

MANUTD99

DM-ICE wrote: »

Passes that retain possession are not negative. Keeping possession is not negative play.

Towards the end of a game keeping possession with a pass to a team mate is far better use of the ball than forcing a forward pass that isn't actually on.

Obviously the best option, when available, is to move the ball forward to a player who in turn will have the chance to retain possession.

To do that the player, in this case Cleverley needs a good options ahead of him. He needs a player in an advanced position available to take the ball and that player would also need to have support players around him or space to move into when receiving the ball, otherwise he will lose the ball.

Let's not pretend that is what Cleverley (or other midfielders, defenders) had on front of them in the last 15 minutes today.

Sure Rooney constantly has to drop back into deep midfield to get a touch of the ball because our midfield is so poor at creating anything creative. That is just not good enough.

Pro. F

beno619 wrote: »

Haha numbers mean nothing without context that was the point of my last post Huddleston was fantastic today. While Cleverley 80 back/sideways passes were worthless.

Except that Cleverley didn't play 80 backwards/sideways passes. You are talking complete bollocks.

What actually happened was that Cleverley got on the ball a lot and played a lot of good forward passes, including a lot of passes in Hull's half. Those passes linked up the play and helped the team build good possession to get into attacking positions.

beno619 wrote: »

One of the main criticism leveled at Cleveley is he doesn't look for the ball enough.

And, as I showed you, that criticism is obviously spurious.

beno619 wrote: »

My issue was his use of the ball in the most difficult period of the match, when push came to shove a resorted to to back and sideways passes.

Yet you have no issue with Carrick who passed the ball 5 fúcking times in that 15 minutes.

mewe

I definitely wouldn't single out Cleverley for criticism when it comes to that team and i think with two really good CM's in the middle with him he could be very good.

Rayne Wooney

mewe wrote: »

I definitely wouldn't single out Cleverley for criticism when it comes to that team and i think with two really good CM's in the middle with him he could be very good.

Like Xavi and Iniesta :pac:


*runs and hides from ProF

beno619

DM-ICE wrote: »

Passes that retain possession are not negative. Keeping possession is not negative play.

Towards the end of a game keeping possession with a pass to a team mate is far better use of the ball than forcing a forward pass that isn't actually on.

Obviously the best option, when available, is to move the ball forward to a player who in turn will have the chance to retain possession.

When a team is under pressure passing back to defenders does not help.

We didn't have possession because the ball kept going back to defenders who in turn hoofed it.

Hernandez, Adnan, Welbz and Rooney were in front of him,he didnt have the balls to take a touch, turn, face the opposition goal and try and find them, took the easy way out and played lots of back passes.

Hull were on top for the last 20 mins because they passed the ball forward.

DM_7

MANUTD99 wrote: »

Sure Rooney constantly has to drop back into deep midfield to get a touch of the ball because our midfield is so poor at creating anything creative. That is just not good enough.

Firstly I am inserting myself into a discussion about the last 15 mins today so that is not relevant to that discussion.

To expand the discussion, nobody is saying United should not have a better first choice midfield.

In saying that Rooney if he has no space to work in he should be dropping back to get involved in the play when he is playing between midfield and the striker, regardless of who is in midfield. Generally, unless hitting a team on the break, when you have possession in a deep position you want to build play by gradually working up the pitch, to do that successfully players need to be close together and work as a group. Rooney dropping deep is part of that.

beno619

Pro. F wrote: »

Except that Cleverley didn't play 80 backwards/sideways passes. You are talking complete bollocks.

What actually happened was that Cleverley got on the ball a lot and played a lot of good forward passes, including a lot of passes in Hull's half. Those passes linked up the play and helped the team build good possession to get into attacking positions.

Your being very kind he had a good 10 min period before the 3rd goal

And, as I showed you, that criticism is obviously spurious.

The criticism is he doesn't demand the ball and play it forward. The general CM duty. He's great at picking up the ball in ineffective area's and playing 5 yard passes to defenders.


Yet you have no issue with Carrick who passed the ball 5 fúcking times in that 15 minutes.

He couldn't get in the game Cleverley was in the game.

Its like me complaining about Hernandez,Zaha or Anderson struggling to make an impact of the bench, he was missing for 2 months.

Pro. F

beno619 wrote: »

When a team is under pressure passing back to defenders does not help.

We didn't have possession because the ball kept going back to defenders who in turn hoofed it.

Hernandez, Adnan, Welbz and Rooney were in front of him,he didnt have the balls to take a touch, turn, face the opposition goal and try and find them, took the easy way out and played lots of back passes.

Hull were on top for the last 20 mins because they passed the ball forward.

In a period when Hull were on top one of their CMs made more forward passes than Cleverley? No shít.

What about the other 75 minutes of the game? What about Michael Carrick's contribution in that final 15 minute period?

I agree that only passing the ball back to defenders does not help. But that is not what happened. Cleverley also passed the ball to Rooney and Welbeck. But you have chosen to ignore that.

beno619

DM-ICE wrote: »

In saying that Rooney if he has no space to work in he should be dropping back to get involved in the play when he is playing between midfield and the striker, regardless of who is in midfield. Generally, unless hitting a team on the break, when you have possession in a deep position you want to build play by gradually working up the pitch, to do that successfully players need to be close together and work as a group. Rooney dropping deep is part of that.

He's supposed to be a number 10, he was doing the work of 2 players. Rooney drops deep and is one of the best at the role but he's was picking up slack for a certain player and this was in the last 20 mins of the game.

MANUTD99

DM-ICE wrote: »

Firstly I am inserting myself into a discussion about the last 15 mins today so that is not relevant to that discussion.

To expand the discussion, nobody is saying United should not have a better first choice midfield.

In saying that Rooney if he has no space to work in he should be dropping back to get involved in the play when he is playing between midfield and the striker, regardless of who is in midfield. Generally, unless hitting a team on the break, when you have possession in a deep position you want to build play by gradually working up the pitch, to do that successfully players need to be close together and work as a group. Rooney dropping deep is part of that.

That should be the work of a midfielder rather than Rooney in my opinion. In fairness now, playing against teams like Hull we shouldn't be relying on WR to come back into midfield. It is not a once off either it happens nearly every game for us.

I do agree with everything you have said though and understand your point but is quite frustrating to see someone like Rooney slotting into CM. He must be the hardest working player for Man United at the minute.

beno619

Pro. F wrote: »

In a period when Hull were on top one of their CMs made more forward passes than Cleverley? No shít.

What about the other 75 minutes of the game? What about Michael Carrick's contribution in that final 15 minute period?

I agree that only passing the ball back to defenders does not help. But that is not what happened. That is what happened Cleverley also passed the ball to Rooney and Welbeck. But you have chosen to ignore that.

Has the whole argument not been about the last 20 mins ?

We were under unnecessary pressure and he had 15 opportunity's to move the ball forward.

Hank Scorpio

Everyone knows Cleverly isn't good enough to be a first team starter for united, I doubt even the strongest defenders of him would deny that. He would be a useful squad player in the long term and I think its foolish to think otherwise. He won't give any trouble and even though his game is limited, its good enough to fill in for cup games and as backup in the league

Felt abit depressed after watching Arsenal today, after Ramsey went off injured they shifted Cazorla into the middle. Wish United had such luxuries

Pro. F

beno619 wrote: »

Has the whole argument not been about the last 20 mins ?

We were under unnecessary pressure and he had 15 opportunity's to move the ball forward.

You are just repeating yourself, ignoring what happened and making shíte up. You are a complete spoofer.

Pro. F

DM-ICE wrote: »

Firstly I am inserting myself into a discussion about the last 15 mins today so that is not relevant to that discussion.

To expand the discussion, nobody is saying United should not have a better first choice midfield.

In saying that Rooney if he has no space to work in he should be dropping back to get involved in the play when he is playing between midfield and the striker, regardless of who is in midfield. Generally, unless hitting a team on the break, when you have possession in a deep position you want to build play by gradually working up the pitch, to do that successfully players need to be close together and work as a group. Rooney dropping deep is part of that.

I agree. You would have a hard job to find any number 10 in football who doesn't regularly drop back deep and pick up the ball.

There are loads of problems with this team under Moyes, Rooney dropping deep is not one of them.

beno619

Pro. F wrote: »

You are just repeating yourself, ignoring what happened and making shíte up. You are a complete spoofer.

Could say the same about you tbh.

But the player in question doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.

I'm just surprised the defence forces are out for a player who continuously lets the side down.

beno619

Pro. F wrote: »

I agree. You would have a hard job to find any number 10 in football who doesn't regularly drop back deep and pick up the ball.

Ozil, Silva. Let's not forget this is one of the best forwards in world football he should be in and around the opposition area and not dropping deep to do the midfielders job.

Pro. F

beno619 wrote: »

Ozil, Silva. Let's not forget this is one of the best forwards in world football he should be in and around the opposition area and not dropping deep to do the midfielders job.

Both drop deep regularly. Next.

beno619

Pro. F wrote: »

Both drop deep regularly. Next.

Not because of inadequacids in midfield. Rooney is a Forward first creater secondly. Ozil and Silva are playmakers. Next.

kryogen

beno619 wrote: »

Ozil, Silva. Let's not forget this is one of the best forwards in world football he should be in and around the opposition area and not dropping deep to do the midfielders job.

Pretty poor examples considering they both drop deep, regularly.

This could make a good quiz question you know

MANUTD99

nuxxx wrote: »

Everyone knows Cleverly isn't good enough to be a first team starter for united, I doubt even the strongest defenders of him would deny that. He would be a useful squad player in the long term and I think its foolish to think otherwise. He won't give any trouble and even though his game is limited, its good enough to fill in for cup games and as backup in the league

Felt abit depressed after watching Arsenal today, after Ramsey went off injured they shifted Cazorla into the middle. Wish United had such luxuries

As long as we are winning the game comfortably and not needing someone to come on and create chances.

I think as a Man United fan for more years than I would like to say at one of the biggest clubs in the world, we need to be aggressive at pointing criticism to players. Tom Cleverley is an average footballer, he may do well at another club. I remember we had a lot of players who could do a job in the 70's and 80's and we won **** all apart from couple FA cups. Back then we could only dream off the resources the club has today money wise and attracting players.

The day Man United fans start accepting Tom Cleverley as a player for Man U is a bad day IMO. No offence to the kid but is just not good enough to play for us.

On another note did anybody see how Man City ripped Liverpool apart today on 1 touch counter attack today. Great to watch, reminded me how we used to play. I know they only scored two but they were beasts going forward

kryogen

Pro. F wrote: »

I agree. You would have a hard job to find any number 10 in football who doesn't regularly drop back deep and pick up the ball.

Very hard job I think

beno619 wrote: »

Ozil, Silva.

Wrong

beno619 wrote: »

Not because of inadequacids in midfield

Irrelevant

ps moving goalposts never goes well in debate

kryogen

MANUTD99 wrote: »

As long as we are winning the game comfortably and not needing someone to come on and create chances.

I think as a Man United fan for more years than I would like to say at one of the biggest clubs in the world, we need to be aggressive at pointing criticism to players. Tom Cleverley is an average footballer, he may do well at another club. I remember we had a lot of players who could do a job in the 70's and 80's and we won **** all apart from couple FA cups. Back then we could only dream off the resources the club has today money wise and attracting players.

The day Man United fans start accepting Tom Cleverley as a player for Man U is a bad day IMO. No offence to the kid but is just not good enough to play for us.

On another note did anybody see how Man City ripped Liverpool apart today on 1 touch counter attack today. Great to watch, reminded me how we used to play. I know they only scored two but they were beasts going forward

We accepted Fletcher as a United player despite him being referred to as Fergie love child quite a bit a few years ago (how else was he getting in the team being the usual question)

We accepted John O Shea, a great servant to the club over the years, vital to a squad that won numerous leagues and cups

Just because a guy is not a stand out player does not mean he is not worth his place in a squad, nay, vital to a squad. A player who can come in, do a job and be happy with that role. Sacrificing for the team and popping up now and then with a valuable contribution

If you are a United fan as long as you make out you should be old to enough to realise this

beno619

kryogen wrote: »

Pretty poor examples considering they both drop deep, regularly.

This could make a good quiz question you know

Does Silva plays along side Toure and Fernandinho ?

Obviously these players drop deep once in a while as does Rooney.

kryogen

beno619 wrote: »

Does Silva plays along side Toure and Fernandinho ?

Obviously these players drop deep once in a while as does Rooney.

Whats your argument then?

That Rooney shouldn't be dropping deep?

That Rooney dropping deep is normal for a player in his position?

Do you know what your arguing anymore?