Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14 Mod warning post #718

Hank Scorpio

beno619 wrote: »

Does Silva plays along side Toure and Fernandinho ?

Obviously these players drop deep once in a while as does Rooney.

There's rights and wrongs to your argument. Anyone who doesn't see the problems united are having in midfield and Rooney having to cover isn't in the real world.

But this season he has rarely done that. He did it today for 20 minutes but I'm struggling to think when he played that deep before then.

MANUTD99

kryogen wrote: »

Pretty poor examples considering they both drop deep, regularly.

This could make a good quiz question you know

Yeah but you won't see Ozil or Silva defending corners and then sprinting 50 yards to try score a goal. Rooney does everything

Rooney's role is too much at the minute. We cannot survive on him dropping deep, clearing balls in his own box ( his header clearance today was better than any of our defenders clearances),creating chances, scoring goals.

His workload is too much and we are over reliant on him. Midfielders are the blame for this

Hank Scorpio

kryogen wrote: »

Whats your argument then?

That Rooney shouldn't be dropping deep?

That Rooney dropping deep is normal for a player in his position?

Do you know what your arguing anymore?

Being condescending doesn't help peoples arguments here even though some people think it does. He has a valid point

kryogen

MANUTD99 wrote: »

Yeah but you won't see Ozil or Silva defending corners and then sprinting 50 yards to try score a goal. Rooney does everything

Rooney's role is too much at the minute. We cannot survive on him dropping deep, clearing balls in his own box ( his header clearance today was better than any of our defenders clearances),creating chances, scoring goals.

His workload is too much and we are over reliant on him. Midfielders are the blame for this

Rooney has always played like this

MANUTD99

kryogen wrote: »

We accepted Fletcher as a United player despite him being referred to as Fergie love child quite a bit a few years ago (how else was he getting in the team being the usual question)

We accepted John O Shea, a great servant to the club over the years, vital to a squad that won numerous leagues and cups

Just because a guy is not a stand out player does not mean he is not worth his place in a squad, nay, vital to a squad. A player who can come in, do a job and be happy with that role. Sacrificing for the team and popping up now and then with a valuable contribution

If you are a United fan as long as you make out you should be old to enough to realise this

John O Shea could play LB, RB, Midfield, CB. Great utility player to have on the bench. Could cover many positions. Did he even play in goal once?. Fully deserved his place in the squad.

I don't get the point you are trying to make.

Tom Cleverley is one of our main starters now in CM and he is piss poor for us.

beno619

kryogen wrote: »

Whats your argument then?

That Rooney shouldn't be dropping deep?

That Rooney dropping deep is normal for a player in his position?

Do you know what your arguing anymore?

Rooney should play his natural game which is usually around the opposition area.

He should not have to drop so deep he is picking up Cleverleys slack.

He's a second striker and not a playmaker. But in the normal course of play it's possible that he may chase back or find himself quite deep.

He shouldn't have t o do that for large periods of a game against though.


Fletcher works hard, marks and wouldn't let you down in examples like Sandro's goal and Cabaye's.

kryogen

nuxxx wrote: »

Being condescending doesn't help peoples arguments here even though some people think it does. He has a valid point

What is it?

That Uniteds midfield is poor? Hardly earth shattering news

Making the argument he has been doing is bonkers, all number 10's drop deep, saying Rooney is only now defending corners and busting his gut trying to get to the other end to score goals is not only false but a disservice to the work rate the guy has put in for basically his whole career at the club

Hank Scorpio

kryogen wrote: »

What is it?

What is it?

That Uniteds midfield is poor? Hardly earth shattering news

Making the argument he has been doing is bonkers, all number 10's drop deep, saying Rooney is only now defending corners and busting his gut trying to get to the other end to score goals is not only false but a disservice to the work rate the guy has put in for basically his whole career at the club

Edited. Nevermind I see what you're saying. My main point regardless of whats being going back and forth is if Rooney is injured we're fooked.

DM_7

MANUTD99 wrote: »

That should be the work of a midfielder rather than Rooney in my opinion. In fairness now, playing against teams like Hull we shouldn't be relying on WR to come back into midfield. It is not a once off either it happens nearly every game for us.

I do agree with everything you have said though and understand your point but is quite frustrating to see someone like Rooney slotting into CM. He must be the hardest working player for Man United at the minute.

If United had a three man midfield then it would be the work of a midfield player but United only have two and the no 10 is played to be the link between everything. At times that will mean dropping deep. Look at a player like Oscar, upping his work rate since coming to the league, regularly dropping deep to influence play.

Hull had more players in midfield than United and it often happens with teams playing one up front, he has to drop back because of his position and Uniteds aet up rather than the personnel in midfield.

kryogen

MANUTD99 wrote: »

John O Shea could play LB, RB, Midfield, CB. Great utility player to have on the bench. Could cover many positions. Did he even play in goal once?. Fully deserved his place in the squad.

I don't get the point you are trying to make.

Tom Cleverley is one of our main starters now in CM and he is piss poor for us.

He is our main starter due to injury mainly and neglect by the previous regime. You honestly think if Carrick and Fellaini had been fit, Anderson fit or in form, Giggs not 40 etc he would have seen as much playing time?

If you don't get the point Im afraid I wont be able to make it clearer for you with anything else I post.

Pro. F

MANUTD99 wrote: »

Yeah but you won't see Ozil or Silva defending corners and then sprinting 50 yards to try score a goal. Rooney does everything

Rooney's role is too much at the minute. We cannot survive on him dropping deep, clearing balls in his own box ( his header clearance today was better than any of our defenders clearances),creating chances, scoring goals.

His workload is too much and we are over reliant on him. Midfielders are the blame for this

Nobody is denying that the team are too reliant on Rooney. But him dropping deep regularly and picking up the ball is not an issue, all number 10s do it.

Rooney's great work rate and strong defending at corners are not problems either.

beno619

kryogen wrote: »

Rooney has always played like this

No he doesn't he was too deep in the last 20 mins today.

I would argue that he has played too deep against Villa and West Ham and it's no surprise he hadn't scored in 4 and has had very little scoring opportunities of late.

kryogen

beno619 wrote: »

Rooney should play his natural game which is usually around the opposition area.

He should not have to drop so deep he is picking up Cleverleys slack.

He's a second striker and not a playmaker. But in the normal course of play it's possible that he may chase back or find himself quite deep.

He shouldn't have t o do that for large periods of a game against though.


Fletcher works hard, marks and wouldn't let you down in examples like Sandro's goal and Cabaye's.

Rooneys natural game is what he is playing, and has always played, look, this isn't going to work. I completely disagree with your assessment that Rooney is playing any differently now then he has always done.

We can just leave it at that I think.

kryogen

beno619 wrote: »

No he doesn't he was too deep in the last 20 mins today.

I would argue that he has played too deep against Villa and West Ham and it's no surprise he hadn't scored in 4 and has had very little scoring opportunities of late.

Did you miss his goal today?

He was deep in the last 20 today because Chicha and Welbeck were ont he pitch and we were a man down with no subs left holding on to a 1 goal lead!Seriously like my brain is starting to hurt.

Pro. F

beno619 wrote: »

No he doesn't he was too deep in the last 20 mins today.

I would argue that he has played too deep against Villa and West Ham and it's no surprise he hadn't scored in 4 and has had very little scoring opportunities of late.

Are you the guy who was saying earlier in the season that Rooney was in poor form? That lad was funny.

Edit: I had a search there. Never mind, it must have been somebody else.

beno619

kryogen wrote: »

Making the argument he has been doing is bonkers, all number 10's drop deep, saying Rooney is only now defending corners and busting his gut trying to get to the other end to score goals is not only false but a disservice to the work rate the guy has put in for basically his whole career at the club

Your putting words in my mouth.

I never questioned Rooneys work rate so please don't make stuff up.

I simply stated he is too deep, his starting position is almost along side the other two.

He is not a typical number 10 and we look for 30 goals a season from him. He has not been a goal threat over the Christmas period because he has played so deep.

MANUTD99

DM-ICE wrote: »

If United had a three man midfield then it would be the work of a midfield player but United only have two and the no 10 is played to be the link between everything. At times that will mean dropping deep. Look at a player like Oscar, upping his work rate since coming to the league, regularly dropping deep to influence play.

Hull had more players in midfield than United and it often happens with teams playing one up front, he has to drop back because of his position and Uniteds aet up rather than the personnel in midfield.

Yep I agree and in fairness to Steve Bruce he got his tactics ok. Huddlestone got stuck in and hassled the weak united midfield. Valencia got pinged down at RB and couldn't get forward. They could of easily scored again if they had right composure.

Thought it was a good tactic by Moyes to keep switching Januzajand Young

Pro. F

beno619 wrote: »

Your putting words in my mouth.

I never questioned Rooneys work rate so please don't make stuff up.

I simply stated he is too deep, his starting position is almost along side the other two.

He is not a typical number 10 and we look for 30 goals a season from him. He has not been a goal threat over the Christmas period because he has played so deep.

Two assists against West Ham and a goal and an assist today. Most people would call that fairly threatening on goal.

beno619

kryogen wrote: »

Did you miss his goal today?

He was deep in the last 20 today because Chicha and Welbeck were ont he pitch and we were a man down with no subs left holding on to a 1 goal lead!Seriously like my brain is starting to hurt.

That's fair enough I guess.

He still wasn't in the opposition area as much as I'm sure we would agree we would like to see him.

Hank Scorpio

Thing is if Rooney was in a fully functioning midfield and he was left do what he does upfront he would score 30 plus, he's done it before. I think peoples main gripe is, since hes such a good player hes covering ground where other positions are struggling, and its a credit to him since hes such a great player. Like I said, take him out of the team and we're in a world of sh1t

MANUTD99

Anyway lads. I thought my day was ruined when we went 2 nil down, especially being the early game. Rest of the day would have been awful to follow football wise had we lost.

We came back and won. Roll on Norwich. Slowly clawing points back. City are like a juggernaut though. Will be too hard to beat. I will even put a few quid on them to win Champions League.

beno619

Pro. F wrote: »

Two assists against West Ham and a goal and an assist today. Most people would call that fairly threatening on goal.

Always been part of his game that's why he's such a great player.

Forward not a midfielder. Stop Condescending.

Pro. F

nuxxx wrote: »

Thing is if Rooney was in a fully functioning midfield and he was left do what he does upfront he would score 30 plus, he's done it before. I think peoples main gripe is, since hes such a good player hes covering ground where other positions are struggling, and its a credit to him since hes such a great player. Like I said, take him out of the team and we're in a world of sh1t

If you want Rooney up front, scoring the most goals he can, then you need to drop van Persie and get another number 10 to play behind Rooney.

Pro. F

beno619 wrote: »

Always been part of his game that's why he's such a great player.

Forward not a midfielder. Stop Condescending.

Seems like your issue is that you don't like Rooney having to play as a number 10. That is irrelevant to the original point - in his position as a number 10 in this team, he drops deep just like all number 10s do.

Rayne Wooney

Playing Rooney where he's playing now is necessary because of our midfield, he's so dynamic and normally does the job of a forward and attacking midfielder and also defends, if Moyes plays Rooney up front with maybe Kagawa behind it's a big risk because while Kagawa is better at the attacking part of the position IMO, he won't do the other things Rooney does when he plays there.

I think sorting out our midfield will solve a lot of problems we're having.

Hank Scorpio

Pro. F wrote: »

If you want Rooney up front, scoring the most goals he can, then you need to drop van Persie and get another number 10 to play behind Rooney.

I don't care if he plays behind RVP or not, if he doesn't he will score that many goals, if he does he will still do really well. Your problem is defending Cleverly ages ago and you`ll do anything other than accept you were wrong about his potential.

My point was him covering the midfield more so then he would have to do with a decent midfield behind him, he has literally kept United in touch this season with his all round play, whether it be dropping into midfield and spreading balls or getting on the end of crosses.

beno619

Pro. F wrote: »

Seems like your issue is that you don't like Rooney having to play as a number 10. That is irrelevant to the original point - in his position as a number 10 in this team, he drops deep just like all number 10s do.

Our opinions are difffrent I don't agree but Il respect it.

Being condescending doesn't help though and leaves a negative stain on issues which are clearly important to both of us.

Hank Scorpio

beno619 wrote: »

Being condescending doesn't help though and leaves a negative stain on issues which are clearly important to both of us.

Welcome to the forum

Pro. F

nuxxx wrote: »

I don't care if he plays behind RVP or not, if he doesn't he will score that many goals, if he does he will still do really well. Your problem is defending Cleverly ages ago and you`ll do anything other than accept you were wrong about his potential.

My point was him covering the midfield more so then he would have to do with a decent midfield behind him, he has literally kept United in touch this season with his all round play, whether it be dropping into midfield and spreading balls or getting on the end of crosses.

You think I don't agree that there are major problems with how the midfield are playing? Because I do. The fact that I disagree with you about Cleverley's ability, potential and contributions this season is irrelevant. We all agree that the midfield as a whole as been severely dis dysfunctional this season.

But Rooney dropping deep to pick up the ball is not an issue. ALL number 10s do it. If you disagree then name some that don't drop deep regularly. If you can't name any then you need to stfu about it.

Pro. F

beno619 wrote: »

Our opinions are difffrent I don't agree but Il respect it.

Being condescending doesn't help though and leaves a negative stain on issues which are clearly important to both of us.

Hank Scorpio

Pro. F wrote: »

You think I don't agree that there are major problems with how the midfield are playing? Because I do. The fact that I disagree with you about Cleverley's ability, potential and contributions this season is irrelevant. We all agree that the midfield as a whole as been severely dis dysfunctional this season.

But Rooney dropping deep to pick up the ball is not an issue. ALL number 10s do it. If you disagree then name some that don't drop deep regularly. If you can't name any then you need to stfu about it.

Irrelevant seems to be a word you like to use very often. It's not irrelevant, hes a huge reason why Rooney has to do the work he does and his forward influence is suffering as a result. He's being overworked, and I`ll repeat if Rooney was out of the team the sh1t would hit the fan. That's my main point and all I'm trying to say

MANUTD99

Pro. F wrote: »

You think I don't agree that there are major problems with how the midfield are playing? Because I do. The fact that I disagree with you about Cleverley's ability, potential and contributions this season is irrelevant. We all agree that the midfield as a whole as been severely dis dysfunctional this season.

But Rooney dropping deep to pick up the ball is not an issue. ALL number 10s do it. If you disagree then name some that don't drop deep regularly. If you can't name any then you need to stfu about it.

Rooney goes above and beyond what is required of a number 10 even more so this season, probably because he had to prove a point but probably also because our midfield sucks

Hank Scorpio

And I`ll just add its not Cleverly's fault hes being picked. Like I said previously he would be a decent squad player. Ferguson let the midfield rot and the only midfielder we signed last season seems to be permanently injured

Pro. F

nuxxx wrote: »

Irrelevant seems to be a word you like to use very often. It's not irrelevant, hes a huge reason why Rooney has to do the work he does and his forward influence is suffering as a result. He's being overworked, and I`ll repeat if Rooney was out of the team the sh1t would hit the fan. That's my main point and all I'm trying to say

Nobody disagrees with you that if Rooney was out we would be fúcked.

The original point was that Rooney dropping deep is normal, all number 10s do it.

There are severe problems in the midfield. Everybody agrees on that. If you want to claim that that is all down to Cleverley, then I disagree with you. Whatever, it still doesn't change the fact that a number 10 regularly dropping deep is normal.

MANUTD99

Pro. F wrote: »

Nobody disagrees with you that if Rooney was out we would be fúcked.

The original point was that Rooney dropping deep is normal, all number 10s do it.

There are severe problems in the midfield. Everybody agrees on that. If you want to claim that that is all down to Cleverley, then I disagree with you. Whatever, it still doesn't change the fact that a number 10 regularly dropping deep is normal.

So you think the work rate for Rooney is normal for a No 10?

kryogen

MANUTD99 wrote: »

Rooney goes above and beyond what is required of a number 10 even more so this season, probably because he had to prove a point but probably also because our midfield sucks

No, its his natural way of playing the game and his hunger to win.

There are plenty of number 10's out there with ****ty midfields who don't put in half as much effort as he does, him going above and beyond is not a new phenomenon.

I very much doubt his manager needs to ask him to defend corners and come deep to get on the ball. He does it because its how he plays the game, its how he has always played the game. I think people are maybe being a bit harsh on him and his contribution over the years to the overall team effort if they really think this is something new

Pro. F

MANUTD99 wrote: »

Rooney goes above and beyond what is required of a number 10 even more so this season, probably because he had to prove a point but probably also because our midfield sucks

So what is your problem exactly?

kryogen

MANUTD99 wrote: »

So you think the work rate for Rooney is normal for a No 10?

When did a high work rate become a negative!!?

Hank Scorpio

Pro. F wrote: »

Nobody disagrees with you that if Rooney was out we would be fúcked.

The original point was that Rooney dropping deep is normal, all number 10s do it.

There are severe problems in the midfield. Everybody agrees on that. If you want to claim that that is all down to Cleverley, then I disagree with you. Whatever, it still doesn't change the fact that a number 10 regularly dropping deep is normal.

I'm not saying its all down to Cleverly. Look the lad gets picked and he plays and the abuse he gets is unfair, but its glaringly obvious to everyone what he contributes to the team.

10's do drop deep normally. What they don't see is him chasing box to box players up to the opponents circle and slide tackles, receive the ball and spread 30 yard passes out to the wings and remain there with Chico or Wellbeck all alone up front.

Rooney always worked hard and that's testament to his ability and also his character as a player but can you name one number 10 who has to drop as deep as he does in European football currently.

The argument of dropping deep is hiding behind the argument of literally keeping the team alive. Dropping deep for any other player in that position is still playing ahead of the midfielders. I.e hes filling up the space of the poor midfielders we have and that includes Cleverly

MANUTD99

Pro. F wrote: »

So what is your problem exactly?

He plays too much in his own half clearing up ****e from his ****ty midfield and then tries to get forward to score goals.

If you can't agree with this then I give up

Headshot

I didn't particularly like how fergusion was sitting up in the stands with a load of players wearing a utd tracksuit

Kirby

nuxxx wrote: »

And I`ll just add its not Cleverly's fault hes being picked. Like I said previously he would be a decent squad player. Ferguson let the midfield rot and the only midfielder we signed last season seems to be permanently injured

As a side note on that, how in the hell is a hand/wrist injury(no matter how bad) keeping a player out for over a month? Is he a goalie? No? Then cast it or wrap it or pump it full of pain killers and get the f*ck out on the pitch.

Bloody hell modern football. Roy Keane played with a broken foot and Fellaini can't play with a wrist he doesn't even need as an outfielder?

Surely something like that can wait until the summer to get sorted out. Does anyone else think if this was Rooney or RVP that they would be having an operation mid season? If Fellaini had actually started his United career well, would he be having the OP at all?

beno619

Pro. F wrote: »

Everybody agrees on that. If you want to claim that that is all down to Cleverley.

We're looking to sign a midfielder to replace him not Carrick. He's the weak link in the most important area of the pitch.

Chelsea are getting by without a goalscorer, no other top side has an average player like Cleverley in CM.

It's not his fault he's not good enough. Mangers past and present + injuries have caused this mess.

Kirby

beno619 wrote: »

We're looking to sign a midfielder to replace him not Carrick. He's the weak link in the most important area of the pitch.

Chelsea are getting by without a goalscorer, no other top side has an average player like Cleverley in CM.

It's not his fault he's not good enough. Mangers past and present + injuries have caused this mess.

Ramsey was poison for nearly a year for Arsenal...and look at him now. It proves that if you persist with a young player, it can pay off.

I'll admit that some of Cleverly's performances for United that I've seen have been poor, but I wouldn't be willing to write him off completely.

kryogen

Fellaini?

He had an operation, he's out for 6 weeks.

He clearly has something pretty serious wrong there or it wouldn't have hampered him so much, Evra has managed to play with a wrist injury for a long time at this stage.

MANUTD99

Headshot wrote: »

I didn't particularly like how fergusion was sitting up in the stands with a load of players wearing a utd tracksuit

Yeah he seems to be in every shot at every game. He should maybe think about taking a step back a bit more

Hank Scorpio

Kirby wrote: »

As a side note on that, how in the hell is a hand/wrist injury(no matter how bad) keeping a player out for over a month? Is he a goalie? No? Then cast it or wrap it or pump it full of pain killers and get the f*ck out on the pitch.
If Fellaini had actually started his United career well, would he be having the OP at all?

If he had started like my dog chasing a paper ball he wouldn't have been on the bench all those games. He was shocking but I still have some hope he`ll come good when he gets a run of games

MANUTD99

Kirby wrote: »

As a side note on that, how in the hell is a hand/wrist injury(no matter how bad) keeping a player out for over a month? Is he a goalie? No? Then cast it or wrap it or pump it full of pain killers and get the f*ck out on the pitch.

Bloody hell modern football. Roy Keane played with a broken foot and Fellaini can't play with a wrist he doesn't even need as an outfielder?

Surely something like that can wait until the summer to get sorted out. Does anyone else think if this was Rooney or RVP that they would be having an operation mid season? If Fellaini had actually started his United career well, would he be having the OP at all?

Sore arm, what sore arm?

beno619

Kirby wrote: »

Ramsey was poison for nearly a year for Arsenal...and look at him now. It proves that if you persist with a young player, it can pay off.

I'll admit that some of Cleverly's performances for United that I've seen have been poor, but I wouldn't be willing to write him off completely.

Arsenal played big money for player who was fantastic as a teen in the championship. Like Bale and Walcott. From very early those players showed glimpses of ability and potential and class. Ramsey was good before his leg break and put us to the sword a few years ago.

Cleveley was 21 and did well at Watford. He has never shown any sort of quality and has never looked like more than an average squad player.

This it diffrent to Welbeck who has produced moments of class multiple times and truly class performances against big sides.

kryogen

Ramsey is not comparable to Cleverley really.

Injury set him back a fair bit but the potential was always there to see and he is now starting to realise it. As has been said previous, you could see it at an early age with him, there is a big difference there