Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14 Mod warning post #718

beno619

I would compare Ramsey to Anderson :P

maybe if he just gets fit...maybe...

Pro. F

nuxxx wrote: »

I'm not saying its all down to Cleverly. Look the lad gets picked and he plays and the abuse he gets is unfair, but its glaringly obvious to everyone what he contributes to the team.

10's do drop deep normally. What they don't see is him chasing box to box players up to the opponents circle and slide tackles, receive the ball and spread 30 yard passes out to the wings and remain there with Chico or Wellbeck all alone up front.

Rooney always worked hard and that's testament to his ability and also his character as a player but can you name one number 10 who has to drop as deep as he does in European football currently.

The argument of dropping deep is hiding behind the argument of literally keeping the team alive. Dropping deep for any other player in that position is still playing ahead of the midfielders. I.e hes filling up the space of the poor midfielders we have and that includes Cleverly

Okay, what we were talking about was Rooney dropping deep when the team is in possession. Nothing to do with his defensive contributions. See these three posts:

MANUTD99 wrote: »

Sure Rooney constantly has to drop back into deep midfield to get a touch of the ball because our midfield is so poor at creating anything creative. That is just not good enough.

DM-ICE wrote: »

Firstly I am inserting myself into a discussion about the last 15 mins today so that is not relevant to that discussion.

To expand the discussion, nobody is saying United should not have a better first choice midfield.

In saying that Rooney if he has no space to work in he should be dropping back to get involved in the play when he is playing between midfield and the striker, regardless of who is in midfield. Generally, unless hitting a team on the break, when you have possession in a deep position you want to build play by gradually working up the pitch, to do that successfully players need to be close together and work as a group. Rooney dropping deep is part of that.

Pro. F wrote: »

I agree. You would have a hard job to find any number 10 in football who doesn't regularly drop back deep and pick up the ball.

There are loads of problems with this team under Moyes, Rooney dropping deep is not one of them.

With regards to how far deep Rooney drops when picking up the ball, ie in line or even deeper than the CMs, I can name many number 10s who do the same. Here's a few off the top of my head: Ozil, Cazorla, Coutinho, Oscar, Silva, Messi, Muller, Fabregas, Isco, Gotze, Kroos. They all play other positions as well, I'm talking about when they play number 10.

It's perfectly normal that if a number 10 drops back then one or two of the CMs should get ahead of him, that's how attacking movement works.

The fact that Rooney also likes to get stuck in and works his bollocks off is an added bonus. What you are describing of him not being in the box when he is needed, is simply untrue.

beno619

Messi does not drop as deep as xavi ineasta and busquets !

Thats outrageous, he's a Forward just like Rooney, the other players are midfielders.

If your comparing Rooney to all those players then im not quite sure what to say.

He's a Forward !

Edit: Muller is also a Forward.

MANUTD99

Pro. F wrote: »

Okay, what we were talking about was Rooney dropping deep when the team is in possession. Nothing to do with his defensive contributions. See these three posts:





With regards to how far deep Rooney drops when picking up the ball, ie in line or even deeper than the CMs, I can name many number 10s who do the same. Here's a few off the top of my head: Ozil, Cazorla, Coutinho, Oscar, Silva, Messi, Muller, Fabregas, Isco, Gotze, Kroos. They all play other positions as well, I'm talking about when they play number 10.

It's perfectly normal that if a number 10 drops back then one or two of the CMs should get ahead of him, that's how attacking movement works.

The fact that Rooney also likes to get stuck in and works his bollocks off is an added bonus. What you are describing of him not being in the box when he is needed, is simply untrue.

Whatever man, you remind me of a kid in school who always has to get the last word in. You don't seem to acknowledge when you might have been wrong on a particular discussion . If you are happy with how our current set up is well then all well and good. I won't be responding to any of your posts directly anymore as they are tiresome and pointless. You have your opinion and I have mine

Hank Scorpio

Pro. F wrote: »

Okay, what we were talking about was Rooney dropping deep when the team is in possession. Nothing to do with his defensive contributions.




Ozil, Cazorla, Coutinho, Oscar, Silva, Messi, Muller, Fabregas, Isco, Gotze, Kroos
.
It's perfectly normal that if a number 10 drops back then one or two of the CMs should get ahead of him, that's how attacking movement works.

The fact that Rooney also likes to get stuck in and works his bollocks off is an added bonus. What you are describing of him not being in the box when he is needed, is simply untrue.

I didn't describe Rooney as not being in the box when needed. I said he was playing in the midfield or behind it when being asked to cover when our midfield is so sh1t and under pressure.

As for the players you mentioned, lol at Ozil doing similar work to Rooney he barely shows up in games and as of late hes been invisible. Cazorla has never done work like Rooney does hes not that type of player and I have never ever seen Cazolla sitting on the edge of our box like Rooney was tonight. Coutinho lol, Liverpool were under the cosh tonight and he got subbed off, he couldn't even keep the ball at the opponents corner flag. Oscar Silva Messi, are you taking the piss now? None of them ever drop that deep and even if they they did, they don't have the psychical presence.. Rest of your examples are just the same.

Honestly think you're taking the piss so I`ll just leave it at that

Pro. F

MANUTD99 wrote: »

Whatever man, you remind me of a kid in school who always has to get the last word in. You don't seem to acknowledge when you might have been wrong on a particular discussion . If you are happy with how our current set up is well then all well and good. I won't be responding to any of your posts directly anymore as they are tiresome and pointless. You have your opinion and I have mine

I am obviously not happy with how the team is playing this season. I've said that loads of times on here. That's got nothing to do with the point about whether it is normal for a number 10 to drop deep and pick up the ball.

Hank Scorpio

Pro. F wrote: »

I am obviously not happy with how the team is playing this season. I've said that loads of times on here. That's got nothing to do with the point about whether it is normal for a number 10 to drop deep and pick up the ball.

You keep changing the argument to suit your argument and I'm done with it. Happy new year.

There's making a point and just not ever ever accepting that *shock horror you might be wrong*

It's one of the reason's I rarely ever post in this main thread and If you look back on your "conversation" previously about Cleverly blocking the ball and what not you can see why

Will I Amnt

Go to bed lads!!

Pro. F

nuxxx wrote: »

I didn't describe Rooney as not being in the box when needed. I said he was playing in the midfield or behind it when being asked to cover when our midfield is so sh1t and under pressure.

Yes you did. You said:
"What they don't see is him chasing box to box players up to the opponents circle and slide tackles, receive the ball and spread 30 yard passes out to the wings and remain there with Chico or Wellbeck all alone up front."

nuxxx wrote: »

As for the players you mentioned, lol at Ozil doing similar work to Rooney he barely shows up in games and as of late hes been invisible. Cazorla has never done work like Rooney does hes not that type of player and I have never ever seen Cazolla sitting on the edge of our box like Rooney was tonight. Coutinho lol, Liverpool were under the cosh tonight and he got subbed off, he couldn't even keep the ball at the opponents corner flag. Oscar Silva Messi, are you taking the piss now? None of them ever drop that deep and even if they they did, they don't have the psychical presence.. Rest of your examples are just the same.

Honestly think you're taking the piss so I`ll just leave it at that

All of those players drop deep and pick up the ball regularly when playing number 10.

All the other issues you have with those players as examples are irrelevant to that point.

Hank Scorpio

Pro. F wrote: »

Yes you did. You said:


All the other issues you have with those players as examples are irrelevant to that point.

It's all irrelevant bro

Pro. F

nuxxx wrote: »

You keep changing the argument to suit your argument and I'm done with it. Happy new year.

There's making a point and just not ever ever accepting that *shock horror you might be wrong*

It's one of the reason's I rarely ever post in this main thread and If you look back on your "conversation" previously about Cleverly blocking the ball and what not you can see why

I haven't changed the argument once. All number 10s frequently drop deep to pick up the ball.

Now you want to complain about some other conversation I had in the past. Good for you.

Hank Scorpio

Pro. F wrote: »

I haven't changed the argument once. All number 10s frequently drop deep to pick up the ball.

Now you want to complain about some other conversation I had in the past. Good for you.

But it's irrelevant

Pro. F

nuxxx wrote: »

It's all irrelevant bro

Coutinho being subbed tonight; Rooney having more of a physical presence; Rooney making tackles; Ozil not working hard; etc; etc. Yep all irrelevant, since it's not what we were talking about.

Hank Scorpio

Pro. F wrote: »

Coutinho being subbed tonight; Rooney having more of a physical presence; Rooney making tackles; Ozil not working hard; etc; etc. Yep all irrelevant, since it's not what we were talking about.

True. I concede, lets dance and make sweet sweet love in the pale moonlight

Pro. F

beno619 wrote: »

Messi does not drop as deep as xavi ineasta and busquets !

Thats outrageous, he's a Forward just like Rooney, the other players are midfielders.

If your comparing Rooney to all those players then im not quite sure what to say.

He's a Forward !

Edit: Muller is also a Forward.

Rooney plays for us as a number 10. Whatever you would like him to be, that is the position he plays for us. All those other players have played as number 10s at some point too. They all drop deep to pick up the ball from that position. And yes, that includes Messi dropping as deep as Xavi and Iniesta.

kryogen

beno619 wrote: »

I would compare Ramsey to Anderson :P

maybe if he just gets fit...maybe...

Anderson had twice the potential of Ramsey as a youngster

He has literally never been the same since the leg breaks such a shame

Oregano_State

MANUTD99 wrote: »

We are one of the biggest clubs in the world and we have to defend average players playing for us with statements like this. He might be ok for Newcastle or Everton. If we want to have serious ambition going forward he is nowhere near good enough and not even for a sub.

We would be played off the park by the a lot of teams in England and Europe at the minute. As soon as you start getting into a comfort zone with statements like Cleverly is a good squad player puts warning signs for me.

I was there when we were not good and finishing mid table and FA Cup was our hope for a trophy. Don't accept average because it is not good enough for a club with our current stature. You can never take your foot of the pedal when things are going well

I was replying to a poster who was, and still is, fixated on blaming Cleverly for our collapse towards the end of the game yesterday. That post was solely in response to that sentiment, and the statement about Cleverly at the end was meant to show my solidarity for the lad without having my head in the clouds about his ability.

I think you are taking my post out of context by suggesting that I am content with the fact that Tom is a central part of our squad. In an ideal world, we could get rid of all the Tom Cleverlys, Buttners, and Andersons and bring in top talent over the space of single transfer window, but the world doesn't work like that unless you're Real Madrid.

Cleverly is one of our better CMs, and deserves his chance to develop this season. He is capable of growing into a very solid CM, and I don't think he's far off it tbh.

Spurs went out and spent 100mill on new players this summer (granted they lost one great one), see how that has worked out.

Man United operate in the real world, where things like how settled a player is, how well a squad knows each other and how much they are willing to work for each other, how much a key player misses his family etc really affect the way the team performs on matchday. Tom Cleverly scores very highly on any criterion you could choose. Even if you are fixated on his performance today, then I don't think there is much of an argument, as he played well by any measurable stats.

I think people are very quick to turn on him as he's not the all-action player most wish for. However, in his past few games I have seen him make a large number of 'silent' contributions, whether it be cutting off passes, collecting stray balls without registering a tackle, closing off passes through midfield etc.

Cleverly is who we have now. He's not going anywhere, and he's getting better all the time.

SherlockWatson

nuxxx wrote: »

It's one of the reason's I rarely ever post in this main thread

With posts like these, that's not a bad thing.

nuxxx wrote: »

True. I concede, lets dance and make sweet sweet love in the pale moonlight

nuxxx wrote: »

But it's irrelevant

nuxxx wrote: »

It's all irrelevant bro

keane2097

I always enjoy when Pro F gets accused of moving the goalposts by people he has just utterly destroyed in debates by doggedly refusing to kick the ball in anything other than the direction in which he originally placed the goalposts.

beno619

Well for all out complaints of lacking a top class midfielder, creativity ect.
I find it odd that people consider that style of play was required towards the end of the match.
His role is to get the team playing.

Cleverley is a very limited player, but should be capable of more than he showed in the last 20 minutes yesterday.

I would love for him to develop into a top player but at 24 he's shown nothing to suggest he will.
If posters want to save face because of predictions made in the past about his potential that's a bit sad.


On Rooney; I believe is best position is as a up front in the box. His partnership's with RVN, Tevez and at times last season with RVP were nothing short of magical.

He is not #10, Zlatan plays in a similar role for Sweden because of their inadequacy's, but is a forward and does not drop as deep as Rooney has in recent weeks.

IamtheWalrus

Wintry out there.

Cantona's Collars

Just a note to anyone who signed up for the Setanta €1 offer,it ends next week however if you ring them,they are offering the channels for €9.99 a month for the next 3 months.

Alpha Dog 1

Lads things ain't going too bad in fairness, 8 points off the lead, last 4 of the league cup, last 16 of the champions league.

Carrick is back in the team as is fletcher, they can only improve the team and the January transfer window opens next week, which I'm fairly sure we will be signing someone along with letting some of the deadwood leave.

If we can sign the right quality player he could salvage our season but the big question is who the hell do we sign?

Cantona's Collars

Alpha Dog 1 wrote: »

If we can sign the right quality player he could salvage our season but the big question is who the hell do we sign?

Somebody who can hold & carry the ball in midfield while dictating the tempo of our play.We missed that for the last 20 minutes of yesterday's match as we camped in our own box and lumped the ball forward,you'd swear Hull were the Champions & we were them.

More talk of a January bid for Koke in today's papers.

IamtheWalrus

zerks wrote: »

More talk of a January bid for Koke in today's papers.

Koke UCL cup-tied?

beno619

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

Koke UCL cup-tied?

Doesn't matter we wont win the CL anyway, we could win the PL with him in the side.

IamtheWalrus

beno619 wrote: »

Doesn't matter we wont with the CL anyway, we could win the PL with him in the side.

Still like to know.

beno619

Oh sorry, yeah he would be cup tied.

KH25

Now that we're away from the Cleverley argument....would anyone else like to have seen Anderson in the squad yesterday? I thik he would have been a better option than Carrick considering the pressure we found ourselves under. He is very good at bringing the ball forward and holding players off. Would like to see him get some gametime over the next bit.

lordgoat

keane2097 wrote: »

I always enjoy when Pro F gets accused of moving the goalposts by people he has just utterly destroyed in debates by doggedly refusing to kick the ball in anything other than the direction in which he originally placed the goalposts.

Pro F might be many things. A thief. A liar. A communist. A goal post moved.

But he is definitely not a goal post mover.

(This is a simpons ref and meant in jest)

But pro doesn't wriggle he talks about the very specific point made and sticks it it. It's how he rolls yo!

Well at least those few pages passed some time in work.

beno619

KH25 wrote: »

would anyone else like to have seen Anderson in the squad yesterday?

He desperately needs some game time. A short term loan to somewhere like Palace might help. Bemuses me why him Fabio and Zaha have been given so few opportunities.

lordgoat

beno619 wrote: »

He desperately needs some game time. A short term loan to somewhere like Palace might help. Bemuses me why him Fabio and Zaha have been given so few opportunities.

See this puzzles me.

Anderson has been overall pretty awful the most of his united career. Baring a match here and there. Get rid of him. He's not good enough. I prefer seeing giggs play ahead of him.

Zaha. Have people been sneaking in watching the training sessions? From what I saw last season I didn't think he'd be good enough this season. I said if he had a good a first season as Nani it's the best we could hope for. When he has played he's been ok. Nothing deserving of starting despite our wingers being poor.

Fabio. I've never seen it. He shouldn't have started the CL final that year. He's ok going forward but he's not good enough. Start him ahead of evra? Not a chance. Maybe he could have played when buttner has but would that have been all that different to the season?

lordgoat

beno619 wrote: »

He desperately needs some game time. A short term loan to somewhere like Palace might help. Bemuses me why him Fabio and Zaha have been given so few opportunities.

So to sum up. They are not good enough.

Cantona's Collars

So folks,how optimistic are ye about the Norwich game,they always raise their game against us and now we are missing a few bodies,I'm a bit worried about it.

Young actually looked ok when he shifted to the right yesterday & put in a few decent balls as opposed to his usual cut inside from the left & kick the ball into the crowd.Perhaps with Val out,he'll get a run there with Kagawa/Giggs on the left.

Pro. F

beno619 wrote: »

Well for all out complaints of lacking a top class midfielder, creativity ect.
I find it odd that people consider that style of play was required towards the end of the match.
His role is to get the team playing.

Cleverley is a very limited player, but should be capable of more than he showed in the last 20 minutes yesterday.

I would love for him to develop into a top player but at 24 he's shown nothing to suggest he will.
If posters want to save face because of predictions made in the past about his potential that's a bit sad.

Not a single poster in this thread agrees with you that Cleverly was the reason we were under pressure at the end of the game yesterday. Do you think that they all have made positive predictions about him in the past and are now trying to save face?

beno619 wrote: »

On Rooney; I believe is best position is as a up front in the box. His partnership's with RVN, Tevez and at times last season with RVP were nothing short of magical.

He is not #10, Zlatan plays in a similar role for Sweden because of their inadequacy's, but is a forward and does not drop as deep as Rooney has in recent weeks.

Rooney regularly dropped deep to pick up the ball last season. The same when he was playing with Tevez.

I've seen plenty of Sweden games where Zlatan has dropped deep and tried to pull the strings.

DM_7

lordgoat wrote: »

See this puzzles me.

Anderson has been overall pretty awful the most of his united career. Baring a match here and there. Get rid of him. He's not good enough. I prefer seeing giggs play ahead of him.

Zaha. Have people been sneaking in watching the training sessions? From what I saw last season I didn't think he'd be good enough this season. I said if he had a good a first season as Nani it's the best we could hope for. When he has played he's been ok. Nothing deserving of starting despite our wingers being poor.

Fabio. I've never seen it. He shouldn't have started the CL final that year. He's ok going forward but he's not good enough. Start him ahead of evra? Not a chance. Maybe he could have played when buttner has but would that have been all that different to the season?

Hard to argue with that, we see lots of ruthless get them out posts about players in the team but sympathetic posts about players already identified by management as not ready/good enough right now to play.

KH25

lordgoat wrote: »

See this puzzles me.

Anderson has been overall pretty awful the most of his united career. Baring a match here and there. Get rid of him. He's not good enough. I prefer seeing giggs play ahead of him.

Zaha. Have people been sneaking in watching the training sessions? From what I saw last season I didn't think he'd be good enough this season. I said if he had a good a first season as Nani it's the best we could hope for. When he has played he's been ok. Nothing deserving of starting despite our wingers being poor.

Fabio. I've never seen it. He shouldn't have started the CL final that year. He's ok going forward but he's not good enough. Start him ahead of evra? Not a chance. Maybe he could have played when buttner has but would that have been all that different to the season?

I take your point on Zaha. I think a lot of the reason people say he should play is because of the poor form of Valencia and Young, and the fact that Moyes doesn't seem to rate Nani. He hasn't really done anything in the (admittedly small) game time he has been given to merit a wider role.

Fabio, I believe has it in him to be as good as Rafael, or at the very least a strong substitute for him. I thought he performed well enough the year he was in the CL. Personally I think he was hampered by injury and his loan to QPR didn't work out for him which stunted his progress. He deserves a chance under Moyes though. Whether he gets it is another question altogether.

But heres the thing with Anderson. Yes, he hasn't been good for United, that much is clear. Yes, he should be sold on and replaced. But at the moment our midfield options are dreadful. The one Midfielder we actually bought is injured and we are left with Carrick (returning from injury), Cleverley, Giggs and Fletcher (who knows if he'll ever be good enough again). Giggs cannot play every week. Neither can Fletcher. That leaves us with Clev, Carrick, Anderson and Jones, who should not be playing as a midfielder. I think Anderson should at least get a run out in some games at the very least to save the others from being burnt out at this time of year.

beno619

lordgoat wrote: »

See this puzzles me.

Anderson has been overall pretty awful the most of his united career. Baring a match here and there. Get rid of him. He's not good enough. I prefer seeing giggs play ahead of him.

I may be clutching at straws but his first season was very good and his second was a bit disappointing and he didn't kick on .But he has certainly had injury problems over that period, he had a good run in the side last season before getting injured against Reading where he was our best player.

He has way more ability the some of our other midfielders IMO and has been very unlucky.

Zaha. Have people been sneaking in watching the training sessions? From what I saw last season I didn't think he'd be good enough this season. I said if he had a good a first season as Nani it's the best we could hope for. When he has played he's been ok. Nothing deserving of starting despite our wingers being poor.

He needs games, It bemused us why Moyes persisted with Young early in the season but he is starting to get back to form and created the winner yesterday. This would not have happened if Moyes didnt give him game time. Young has also been unlucky with injury over the past 12 months after starting his United career well.

Fabio. I've never seen it. He shouldn't have started the CL final that year. He's ok going forward but he's not good enough. Start him ahead of evra? Not a chance. Maybe he could have played when buttner has but would that have been all that different to the season?

He got an opportunity because of injury in the last 2 months of that season and was very good from what I remember, He did not yet us down vs Barca, he's every bit as useful as Rafa at right back but unfortunately not left footed. He could definitely be effective higher up the pitch and I would prefer him to Butters.

DM_7

zerks wrote: »

So folks,how optimistic are ye about the Norwich game,they always raise their game against us and now we are missing a few bodies,I'm a bit worried about it.

Young actually looked ok when he shifted to the right yesterday & put in a few decent balls as opposed to his usual cut inside from the left & kick the ball into the crowd.Perhaps with Val out,he'll get a run there with Kagawa/Giggs on the left.

Young has looked better than okay the last few games tbh. Confidence is high.

Norwich have a small squad so may struggle more than United with the quick turnaround between games.

So I am not worried. Expect Vidic to return in defence to cover for Raf's injury with Smalling to right Back, Kagawa and maybe Giggs to also start to freshen things up.

Alpha Dog 1

Anderson is awful and anyone who thinks he should be starting for us is deluded. I'd happily have cleverly and giggs ahead of him in midfield and that says it all. Not to mention Fellani, Carrick, Jones, Fletcher, Rooney or Kagawa.

beno619

Pro. F wrote: »

Not a single poster in this thread agrees with you that Cleverly was the reason we were under pressure at the end of the game yesterday. Do you think that they all have made positive predictions about him in the past and are now trying to save face?

Its been pointed out that we missed somebody in the last 20 mins of the game to carry the ball forward and dictate play. This is something cleverley did not do and could have.

I only believe you have made positive predictions about him, I accept the other augments that have been made regarding Cleverley

Rooney regularly dropped deep to pick up the ball last season. The same when he was playing with Tevez.

Yep was wonderful to watch they switched constantly with one dropping back and one leading the line, they rearely had to cover Scholes, Carrick and Fletch.

I've seen plenty of Sweden games where Zlatan has dropped deep and tried to pull the strings.

Yep and he wanted out of the club because of how deep he was playing last year. I acknowledge #10's / second strikers drop deep though.

I believe Rooney drops far too deep far too often.

I understand your arguments though.

lordgoat

On phone so can't multi quote.

Anderson had a good first season. And every season since then has been shocking. If you want to know how bad he can be go watch the match against Basel where they knocked us out. Worst performance from a united player I've ever seen in 20years plus of watching football.

Again people say Zaha deserves games. Why? Adnan deserves games. And he gets them. The reason why? He's playing better than him and has more competition but yet he's not held back. It's not difficult to figure out especially when he does get on.

Fabio was not good in the CL final. I don't blame him for it. It's not his position and he shouldn't have been there. Potential poschmential he's not a new player. He's had what 7 seasons to show us what he can do and in the last 3 has been average at best.

People need to lose the sentiment and forget about oh MAYBE they'll come good. We are beyond that for Anderson and Fabio IMO. Zaha I don't know but if he's been here for 4 plus seasons and is doing **** all. Get rid.

ITT-Pat

lordgoat wrote: »

Fabio. I've never seen it. He shouldn't have started the CL final that year.

Who would you have started?

lordgoat

ITT-Pat wrote: »

Who would you have started?

Smalling or Valencia.

I'd also have started Nani and maybe scholes but being in barca for that final has soured it a lot in my mind. Sickened by it...

ITT-Pat

lordgoat wrote: »

Smalling or Valencia.

I'd also have started Nani and maybe scholes but being in barca for that final has soured it a lot in my mind. Sickened by it...

Why Smalling? How many games had he played at RB by May 2011?

Same for Valencia tbh

Paul Tergat

Oregano_State wrote: »

I was replying to a poster who was, and still is, fixated on blaming Cleverly for our collapse towards the end of the game yesterday. That post was solely in response to that sentiment, and the statement about Cleverly at the end was meant to show my solidarity for the lad without having my head in the clouds about his ability.

I think you are taking my post out of context by suggesting that I am content with the fact that Tom is a central part of our squad. In an ideal world, we could get rid of all the Tom Cleverlys, Buttners, and Andersons and bring in top talent over the space of single transfer window, but the world doesn't work like that unless you're Real Madrid.

Cleverly is one of our better CMs, and deserves his chance to develop this season. He is capable of growing into a very solid CM, and I don't think he's far off it tbh.

Spurs went out and spent 100mill on new players this summer (granted they lost one great one), see how that has worked out.

Man United operate in the real world, where things like how settled a player is, how well a squad knows each other and how much they are willing to work for each other, how much a key player misses his family etc really affect the way the team performs on matchday. Tom Cleverly scores very highly on any criterion you could choose. Even if you are fixated on his performance today, then I don't think there is much of an argument, as he played well by any measurable stats.

I think people are very quick to turn on him as he's not the all-action player most wish for. However, in his past few games I have seen him make a large number of 'silent' contributions, whether it be cutting off passes, collecting stray balls without registering a tackle, closing off passes through midfield etc.

Cleverly is who we have now. He's not going anywhere, and he's getting better all the time.

This sums it all up for me. Good post mate

keane2097 wrote: »

I always enjoy when Pro F gets accused of moving the goalposts by people he has just utterly destroyed in debates by doggedly refusing to kick the ball in anything other than the direction in which he originally placed the goalposts.

This is very true. I gave up once I saw what was going on but Pro, being the Pro he is (that was terrible, I apologise), not only came through on the original point but was also correct when the argument shifted for some unknown reason. WP sir

beno619

lordgoat wrote: »

Smalling or Valencia.

I'd also have started Nani and maybe scholes but being in barca for that final has soured it a lot in my mind. Sickened by it...

He had played very well at right back leading up the final and it would have made no sense to play smalling or Valencia ahead of him.

My sentiment to players like Ando and Fabio is based on the fact that they have ability and have actually performed for us in the past when fit.

Cleverley has never looked more than average and has had many an opportunity to show his worth this season, when was the last time Ando had a significant run in the side ?

Form comes from games and Ando and Fabio have been injured, so judging them based on injury hit seasons is unfair.

Around this time last year he got injured off the back of performances like this against Chelsea.

He was playing very well before his injury in the Reading game last year.

bucketybuck

lordgoat wrote: »

Fabio. I've never seen it. He shouldn't have started the CL final that year.

Fabio most definitely should have started the CL final, he was in fine form at the time and was easily the best option to go with.

As to your point about Zaha not doing anything to show he deserves a place, well, thats kinda hard to do when he has only played about ten minutes total.

lordgoat

bucketybuck wrote: »

Fabio most definitely should have started the CL final, he was in fine form at the time and was easily the best option to go with.

As to your point about Zaha not doing anything to show he deserves a place, well, thats kinda hard to do when he has only played about ten minutes total.

Ah apologies. My original post rshould have said wouldn't have started rather than shouldn't. (I was wondering why I was asked who to start instead)

Ya he had a decent few games but to me that was him playing at his also lute maximum and he's failed to replicate that form since. While he's been given plenty of time.

As for Zaha if he was deserving of more time he would get it. If you go back to preseason there were others who I thought played better.

For me so far he's not showed anything deserving of more than he's got.

Oh Anderson youtubes that'll change my mind. Oh wait it doesn't show you all the matches he was invisible for. He's not good enough.

ITT-Pat

lordgoat wrote: »

Ah apologies. My original post rshould have said wouldn't have started rather than shouldn't. (I was wondering why I was asked who to start instead)

Fair enough, but suggesting that you would have started Smalling or Valencia instead of him is still ludacris imo