Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14 Mod warning post #718

beno619

Robson99 wrote: »

He will be alright as a squad player along with Cleverly

It's laughable to compare the two. Carrick was our best player last year and has grown in stature since becoming the leader of our midfield.

Best English passer in the premier league. Fletcher coming back will help him a lot and has already pointed out a midfield featuring him and Jones has done well against top class opposition like Madrid and Arsenal.

Pighead

kryogen wrote: »

Of course you can skim through them, I did say it becomes annoying skipping through threads. You enjoy the tit for tats that go on for ages? Cool, not everybody does though

I like an argument, I like a debate. I don't like the exact same things being repeated over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over (you get the message) again. Nothing new is brought up, neither side gives an inch and they will not reconcile to any sort of consensus on the matter.

At some point in a debate, the two parties have said everything they can to each other and all they will do from then on is regurgitate the same info again and again. It has no merit.

I am interested as to what you feel are the merits of it? No new point of view, no new information, verging toward being more personal with each post?

Disagree that they regurgitate same info again and again. Always some new and interesting info to be found in these mega debates. The determination of both foes see them scour the net for info to back up their point.

Its better than the ' I'm too tired and couldn't be bothered to debate my point. I'm gonna leave it there' type of posting.

MANUTD99

I thought the most depressing thing about our performance today was watching Hernandez pretty much play in a midfield role today. He is an out and out goal poacher and watching him drop into midfield to try and link up play was a horror show to watch. Thats not the type of player he is and you wont get any success out of him playing like this

Mars Bar

Pighead wrote: »

What? We're not allowed to start discussion regarding Utd midfielders in a Utd thread on a discussion board? How is what bucketybuck said baiting? It's his opinion? Debate the issue rather than silencing him.

Pighead wrote: »

Didn't realise there was a time limit on discussions. Does this mean the next thread on how brilliant Ronaldo is will get locked as we've gone down that road before?

It's nonsense. If people want to discuss it a discussion will naturally generate. If not, the discussion will naturally die. Tom Cleverly in my opinion is not taking his chance at the moment to convince Moyes he's the man for the job. Other people think differently. Divisive issue= topic worth discussing.

Pighead wrote: »

Is like to hear a mod explain why discussing Cleverley is not allowed but if what you're saying is right I'm baffled. The last two or three months in here has seen various people go around in circles discussing Moyes suitability for the managers job. Don't remember any ban on that discussion.

Thought mods job was to prevent agro and to promote civilised discussion. Why are they now dictating what constitutes valid discussion?

Mod
Firstly, you know the rules about arguing with a mod on thread.

Secondly, I have no problem actually debating what Cleverley brings to the team. I have no problem when the debate is reasoned and not personal and that's how it started out. What has happened is after the massive debate, there has been tit-for-tat at every opportunity between Pro. F. and Your Airbag with each of them getting a jibe at each other.
As you said yourself and you are correct, mods are here to promote civilised discussion. Both Your Airbag and Pro. F. are very good debaters and neither wants to back down but once it gets to cheap shots, then it's no longer interesting and it's not civilised.

What I've noticed since is that we have some posters taking digs at other posters for using stats and starting unnecessary arguments.

And finally, next time you want to challenge a mod on their decision, bring it to PM. If you want to continue this with me any further, please do so by PM. That also goes for other posters who wish to put forward their side of the argument. I'm happy to listen/read.
/Mod

Rayne Wooney

I'm not even annoyed with Kagawa like some seem to be, I just think Moyes doesn't know how to use him at all.

If you look at his last season at Dortmund the difference is astonishing, he was showing signs of turning into a world class playmaker and is now resigned to sitting on the bench and making occasional appearances at left wing and rare cameos in his favourite position.

It's not the same cutting in from left wing and playing in the hole with the whole attack in front of you to link with and try create chances for them.

There were times today when Kagawa drifted into centre and looked dangerous. Welbeck didn't know what to do when this was happening it seemed to me. But you could also draw from that that Moyes has told Kagawa not to move in centre and has never mentioned anything about 'interchanging' to the lads. Welbeck could have pushed out left a lot of times today instead of seemingly standing there thinking "wtf is he doing".

Zero fluidity in the team.

Kagawa will be gone in the next 8 months, back to Dortmund most likely.

beno619

Agreed, I though after his performance against Leverkusen it would be a no brainier to play him behind Rooney/RVP whichever one is fit. Its another baffling decision from Moyes.

Blatter

Kagawa played in the hole 4 times since his good performance against Leverkusen (who massively under performed). He played there against Tottenham, Everton, Shaktahr and Norwich and was fairly useless in all four games.

Yes, there's been a lot of reasons as to why he hasn't succeeded at United as of this time but one of the main reasons is his failure to string a few consistent performances together whenever he's gotten the chance to. The amount of slack he's cut on this thread in comparison to other players is unreal imo.

Winston Payne

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

I'm not even annoyed with Kagawa like some seem to be, I just think Moyes doesn't know how to use him at all.

If you look at his last season at Dortmund the difference is astonishing, he was showing signs of turning into a world class playmaker and is now resigned to sitting on the bench and making occasional appearances at left wing and rare cameos in his favourite position.

It's not the same cutting in from left wing and playing in the hole with the whole attack in front of you to link with and try create chances for them.

There were times today when Kagawa drifted into centre and looked dangerous. Welbeck didn't know what to do when this was happening it seemed to me. But you could also draw from that that Moyes has told Kagawa not to move in centre and has never mentioned anything about 'interchanging' to the lads. Welbeck could have pushed out left a lot of times today instead of seemingly standing there thinking "wtf is he doing".

Zero fluidity in the team.

Kagawa will be gone in the next 8 months, back to Dortmund most likely.

What? The Welbeck that was taking players on well today, beating them and coming out laterally and wide to good effect you mean? Welbeck looked more like a forward playmaker than Kagawa today. This is alarming as far as Kagawa goes. Today was exactly the kind of game that Kagawa needs to be making an impact in, he's against a positionally static team and he had enough of the ball. He made no offensive contribution of value today, rarely going forward with his passes and having no relationship with Hernandez at all.

Your Airbag

beno619 wrote: »

Agreed, I though after his performance against Leverkusen it would be a no brainier to play him behind Rooney/RVP whichever one is fit. Its another baffling decision from Moyes.

Thats where he was played today and in other matches and he hasn't produced. His two best games were against Leverkusen which makes sense as he is used to German opposition.

Maybe he can't cope with the physical side of things in England but he is unable to express himself like he did with Dortmund which is a real shame because he's got lots of attacking quality. Hopefully superior creative and defensive signings behind him will allow him to link and get the ball in better areas with more space.

MagicMarker

Yeah, tbh, Kagawa is starting to piss me off. Would not care to see him go so long as we bring someone in.

MANUTD99

Blatter wrote: »

Kagawa played in the hole 3 times since his good performance against Leverkusen (who massively under performed). He played there against Tottenham, Everton and Shaktahr and was fairly useless in all three games.

Yes, there's been a lot of reasons as to why he hasn't succeeded at United as of this time but one of the main reasons is his failure to string a few consistent performances together whenever he's gotten the chance to. The amount of slack he's cut on this thread in comparison to other players is unreal imo.

Have been biting my tongue on this one for a while as I don't have proven stats to back myself up. He has been quite poor this season apart from 1 or 2 games regardless of playing on the left on in his favorite role.

Does he have any assists even this season

Mars Bar

There was one particular phase of play when we got a flash of the potential world class Kagawa with some lovely one touch passing but it ended going from left to right rather than any penetration play. Our forward players don't appear to be intelligent enough to make the space in behind that Kagawa would see.

Robson99

Liam O wrote: »

Ironically a lot of people would welcome Modric to be signed when he is as defensively weak as Kagawa.

Modric is much better defensively than Kagawa and can operate in a central two in the middle something I dont think Kagawa can do

Pighead

Mars Bar wrote: »

Mod
Firstly, you know the rules about arguing with a mod on thread.

Secondly, I have no problem actually debating what Cleverley brings to the team. I have no problem when the debate is reasoned and not personal and that's how it started out.

So how come you said this:

Mars Bar wrote: »

Don't be baiting or you'll get a yellow.

This goes for everyone who is trying to start the Cleverley debate.

That seems to be suggesting you have a big problem with people starting up the Cleverley debate.

Mars Bar wrote: »

What has happened is after the massive debate, there has been tit-for-tat at every opportunity between Pro. F. and Your Airbag with each of them getting a jibe at each other.
As you said yourself and you are correct, mods are here to promote civilised discussion. Both Your Airbag and Pro. F. are very good debaters and neither wants to back down but once it gets to cheap shots, then it's no longer interesting and it's not civilised.

So moderate the discussion. Warn both posters to tone it down. How does banning the topic itself make any sense?

Mars Bar wrote: »

What I've noticed since is that we have some posters taking digs at other posters for using stats and starting unnecessary arguments.

Digs? How was what bucketybuck said a dig? He made a valid point. Point being that depsite Cleverley's pass comepletetion stats etc looking pretty good he didn't actually contribute a great deal to the game today. If the pro Cleverley people want to debate that great. Let them at it.

Mars Bar wrote: »

And finally, next time you want to challenge a mod on their decision, bring it to PM. If you want to continue this with me any further, please do so by PM. That also goes for other posters who wish to put forward their side of the argument. I'm happy to listen/read.
/Mod

And are the mods immune from the charter rules?
THREADSPOILING: If you do not like a thread topic do not post in it. Suggesting a thread is boring or pointless is considered threadspoiling, this includes the use of pictures to derail a thread. The basic rule is if you post in a thread ensure you are adding to the debate and not commenting on it's validity. If you believe a post/thread is in breach of this charter then you should report the post and allow the mods deal with it.

You are threadspoiling by deciding the Cleverley debate is rubbish. Give yourself a yellow card while you're throwing them around there.

Your Airbag

MANUTD99 wrote: »

Have been biting my tongue on this one for a while as I don't have proven stats to back myself up. He has been quite poor this season apart from 1 or 2 games regardless of playing on the left on in his favorite role.

Does he have any assists even this season

Today stats wise he comes off pretty well. Completed 98% of his passes, misplacing one of his 42 passes. He also made two interceptions but we know they can be misleading.

The lack of creativity was there for all of us to see. UTD completed five passes inside the Norwich area and just seven key passes over the course of the whole match. Kagawa is not solely at fault for this lack of creation as so may around him played poorly. All in all today is not a good day to judge him






So far this season in the league he has made 7 apperances. He has a pass completion rate of 88% but he has only created 4 chances in total and has won 64% of his defensive/offensive duels. Kind of underwhelming.

Mitch Connor

for me, the player on the ball at United has no freaming chance at the moment. the movement of the forward players is terrible. there aren't enough runs or movement. all too often the player in possession can only play it sideways or backwards.

I reckon if you took a still of each time a united player got on the ball, you'd be hard pressed to see an incisive pass on for them. That staticness of the United team is utterly painful imo, and to be fair it isn't just a Moyes thing - it was the same under Fergie.

Mars Bar

Pighead wrote: »

So how come you said this:

That seems to be suggesting you have a big problem with people starting up the Cleverley debate.




So moderate the discussion. Warn both posters to tone it down. How does banning the topic itself make any sense?


Digs? How was what bucketybuck said a dig? He made a valid point. Point being that depsite Cleverley's pass comepletetion stats etc looking pretty good he didn't actually contribute a great deal to the game today. If the pro Cleverley people want to debate that great. Let them at it.


And are the mods immune from the charter rules?
THREADSPOILING: If you do not like a thread topic do not post in it. Suggesting a thread is boring or pointless is considered threadspoiling, this includes the use of pictures to derail a thread. The basic rule is if you post in a thread ensure you are adding to the debate and not commenting on it's validity. If you believe a post/thread is in breach of this charter then you should report the post and allow the mods deal with it.

You are threadspoiling by deciding the Cleverley debate is rubbish. Give yourself a yellow card while you're throwing them around there.

As I said, bring it to PM.

MANUTD99

Your Airbag wrote: »

Today stats wise he comes off pretty well. Completed 98% of his passes, misplacing one of his 42 passes. He also made two interceptions but we know they can be misleading.

The lack of creativity was there for all of us to see. UTD completed five passes inside the Norwich area and just seven key passes over the course of the whole match. Kagawa is not solely at fault for this lack of creation as so may around him played poorly. All in all today is not a good day to judge him






So far this season in the league he has made 7 apperances. He has a pass completion rate of 88% but he has only created 4 chances in total and has won 64% of his defensive/offensive duels. Kind of underwhelming.

He's never going to get that role he played at Dortmund while we have RVP and Rooney. Fergie bought him and then bought RVP.Unlucky for him but then again has not seemed to shine when giving a chance which he should be all over when played.

All his passes suggests he was mostly on the right side?

F.J.

A big part of Kagawa's problem is the lack of movement and fluidity in our play.Look at Liverpool the other night and the interchanging that took place between players and compare it to our pondorous attacking play with minimal movement.Not exactly set up for a player like Kagawa to thrive in

kryogen

Pighead wrote: »

Disagree that they regurgitate same info again and again. Always some new and interesting info to be found in these mega debates. The determination of both foes see them scour the net for info to back up their point.

Its better than the ' I'm too tired and couldn't be bothered to debate my point. I'm gonna leave it there' type of posting.

a typical barb from the boards God himself, Im honoured.

On point, you are incorrect then. They do repeat the same points over and over again.

Edit: You also skimmed over the point where I said the posts get gradually more personal between them which also achieves nothing. Do you refute this also? Do you believe that sniping at each other and becoming personal in a debate wins you points?

Rayne Wooney

Blatter wrote: »

Kagawa played in the hole 4 times since his good performance against Leverkusen (who massively under performed). He played there against Tottenham, Everton, Shaktahr and Norwich and was fairly useless in all four games.

Yes, there's been a lot of reasons as to why he hasn't succeeded at United as of this time but one of the main reasons is his failure to string a few consistent performances together whenever he's gotten the chance to. The amount of slack he's cut on this thread in comparison to other players is unreal imo.

He started in the hole against Everton and Moyes switched stuff around before half time because he got it wrong tactically and Everton were battering us. Kagawa was moved back out to left wing So it's up to you if you count that as a game in the hole, and he did pretty well in the opening of that game, he was definitely not having a mare at that stage like a few of the other players were and was trying to create things.

Started in the hole against Spurs, this was the game where Cleverley turned pretty invisible for 90 minutes, this lead to Kagawa coming deep and doing Clev's job for him, which he did well, Rooney was doing this as well as far as I can remember. Then Moyes changed it after 35 minutes because Spurs were all over us and Kagawa was moved to the wing with Rooney in midfield and Welbeck up front. So again if you count that as a game in the hole, but all I'm seeing is sub 75 minutes in two games where he did okey-well considering the circumstances.

Norwich?

I haven't time to look into the Shakhtar one but it's clear you need to reevaluate.

If he got a consistent run in the hole I'm sure he'd do great.

Liam O

Maybe if he played more than once every 3 or 4 games it would help. Substituted every time he starts and not being brought on when the team needs a spark can hardly be helping his confidence. He'll go back to Dortmund and immediately improve them.

Pighead

kryogen wrote: »

a typical barb from the boards God himself, Im honoured.

On point, you are incorrect then. They do repeat the same points over and over again.

Boards God? Explain? Was that a barb? Is this what you mean when you say posters get personal with each other?

The Kagawa problem is a tough one to figure out. We all know the talent is there and I think this is part of the reason he gets so much patience from fans but as Blatter says he's had a few games in his preferred position now and he's still been largely ineffective. Personally I'd persevere with him for a while yet as surely there is much more to come from him?

Robson99

beno619 wrote: »

It's laughable to compare the two. Carrick was our best player last year and has grown in stature since becoming the leader of our midfield.

No thats laughable. The dog on the street knows RVP was our best player last year.
Grown in stature since becoming leader of our midfield???.He is the best of an average lot. Scholes being brought out of retirement highlighted our inadequate midfield.

beno619 wrote: »

Best English passer in the premier league. Fletcher coming back will help him a lot and has already pointed out a midfield featuring him and Jones has done well against top class opposition like Madrid and Arsenal.

Cleverly and Wilshere are good passers of the ball as well. If you are happy with a midfield of Carrick and Fletcher then good for you. An inadequate midfield id the root of most of our problems

Montroseee

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

He started in the hole against Everton and Moyes switched stuff around before half time because he got it wrong tactically and Everton were battering us. Kagawa was moved back out to left wing So it's up to you if you count that as a game in the hole, and he did pretty well in the opening of that game, he was definitely not having a mare at that stage like a few of the other players were and was trying to create things.

Started in the hole against Spurs, this was the game where Cleverley turned pretty invisible for 90 minutes, this lead to Kagawa coming deep and doing Clev's job for him, which he did well, Rooney was doing this as well as far as I can remember. Then Moyes changed it after 35 minutes because Spurs were all over us and Kagawa was moved to the wing with Rooney in midfield and Welbeck up front. So again if you count that as a game in the hole, but all I'm seeing is sub 75 minutes in two games where he did okey-well considering the circumstances.

Norwich?

I haven't time to look into the Shakhtar one but it's clear you need to reevaluate.

If he got a consistent run in the hole I'm sure he'd do great.

It's unreal the lengths people will go to make excuses for Kagawa, have literally never seen it with another player at any club. Nearly every UTD. fan I know personally are calling a spade a spade at this stage ie. he has consistently failed to deliver. He has no defensive capabilities, barely scores or assists anymore and seems to give the ball away more than not now. The best he can do for the club now is as a bargaining tool for someone useful.

beno619

Blatter wrote: »

Kagawa played in the hole 4 times since his good performance against Leverkusen (who massively under performed). He played there against Tottenham, Everton, Shaktahr and Norwich and was fairly useless in all four games.

Didn't see the Everton or Shaktahr games but he only played in the hole for the first half against spurs then moved out wide, today he was a winger and drifted into central positions when he could.

He definitely has to improve, like Welbeck he shouldn't be judged on performances when he has been played out of position and been messed about Imo.

Your Airbag

One thing I'd like to say about one of our players, one of our players absent today, is that Rooney has been immense for us this season. His attitude, desire, workrate, skill, guile and craft have all been great. We sorely miss him when he is out, he is our most missed player when out.

If he was there today he would have dropped in to MF and created and fought for the ball back. We would have not have been over run so easily and things would have been easier, not great but with so many players having an off day its not going to happen but it would not have been as bad as it was.

Rooney is without doubt our best player imo. By a country mile. He is more important to us than RVP and Vidic and our other world class players. He has much more to his game than RVP. He is the best player in the EPL so far for me. What he brings to the team is amazing, its night and day without him. He is a top ten in the world player imo. Simply immense.

Some people will never forgive him for the transfer requests but I believe he had a difficult relationship with Fergie and made some bad choices but never really wanted out. I pray that he signs a new contract.

After being cheesed off at him myself for a while I am now totally pro Rooney. He has really won me over this season. I would be happy to see him stay at the club and have a better manager/player relationship for his remaining time at UTD. Some people will say he can never achieve club legend status at UTD but I disagree. He is already one of the greatest to wear a UTD jersey and I hope he is settled and wants to stay so he can break the goals record.

MagicIRL

Montroseee wrote: »

It's unreal the lengths people will go to make excuses for Kagawa, have literally never seen it with another player at any club. Nearly every UTD. fan I know personally are calling a spade a spade at this stage ie. he has consistently failed to deliver. He has no defensive capabilities, barely scores or assists anymore and seems to give the ball away more than not now. The best he can do for the club now is as a bargaining tool for someone useful.

Agree 100%. Shame really. Reminds me of Veron.

sReq | uTeK

I don't get it and it's the same stuff that's been posted time and time again, play Kagawa in his number 10 role and he will do "do this, do that" newsflash, he's been played there plenty, 5 times in fact and he's done nothing in 4 of them.

The simple fact of the matter is, Rooney is a significantly superior player playing Kagawa's supposedly "best role" when Rooney and RVP are fit there is simply no room for him in the team, he's been terrible on the left and whilst he's neat and tidy he offers nothing going forward and very little in defence, why play him there over Wellbeck who offers something on both fronts and is used to playing there. Right now I wouldn't have him in the team and would love him moving on if it opened up avenues for us to sign someone else.

However with that said today was another opportunity for him to play himself into the team and again whilst being neat and tidy he offered very little, people say that movement from our forwards was terrible, but this is the same Chico who loves to be on the shoulder of the last man, still nothing happened.

Ozil is a player who can significantly influence the game from the left and also from the 10, Mata is another player who can do both as can Hazzard, Kagawa has simply flattered to deceive when he's been played, there is just no getting around it.

Winston Payne

Your Airbag wrote: »

One thing I'd like to say about one of our players, one of our players absent today, is that Rooney has been immense for us this season. His attitude, desire, workrate, skill, guile and craft have all been great. We sorely miss him when he is out, he is our most missed player when out.

If he was there today he would have dropped in to MF and created and fought for the ball back. We would have not have been over run so easily and things would have been easier, not great but with so many players having an off day its not going to happen but it would not have been as bad as it was.

Rooney is without doubt our best player imo. By a country mile. He is more important to us than RVP and Vidic and our other world class players. He has much more to his game than RVP. He is the best player in the EPL so far for me. What he brings to the team is amazing, its night and day without him. He is a top ten in the world player imo. Simply immense.

Some people will never forgive him for the transfer requests but I believe he had a difficult relationship with Fergie and made some bad choices but never really wanted out. I pray that he signs a new contract.

After being cheesed off at him myself for a while I am know totally pro Rooney. He has really won me over this season. I would be happy to see him stay at the club and have a better manager/player relationship for his remaining time at UTD. Some people will say he can never achieve club legend status at UTD but I disagree. He is already one of the greatest to wear a UTD jersey and I hope he is settled and wants to stay so he can break the goals record.

He's going to disappoint you again this summer. He won't sign a contract and then we'll be in bother.

Your Airbag

Winston Payne wrote: »

He's going to disappoint you again this summer. He won't sign a contract and then we'll be in bother.

I think he wants to and will sign. I dread to think where we would be had he left.

The_Kew_Tour

Passing percentage means nothing unless its the right pass.

I would rather a player have 85% pass rate if he was creating 4-5 goal scoring opportunities each game and was giving the correct pass mostly.

I agree with sentiment on Kagawa that he does seem to get away with poor performances unlike others.

He has been a disappointment overall since he came to club.

I recall watching the Fulham game at Craven Cottage and he could not string few simple passes together. That was just one of few games he has done it

The_Kew_Tour

Your Airbag wrote: »

One thing I'd like to say about one of our players, one of our players absent today, is that Rooney has been immense for us this season. His attitude, desire, workrate, skill, guile and craft have all been great. We sorely miss him when he is out, he is our most missed player when out.

I know I admitted I was wrong in Rooney affair in summer, but tbh I should have got 2-3 month ban in here for such error of judgement:pac:

Rayne Wooney

Correction, he's played in his preferred position 4 times. In one he did very well, in two he was moved back to left wing after 30 minutes not because he was playing badly but for the sake of the team, and against Shakhtar which I can't really remember but I doubt he was terrible.

If that's what people call a run of games, I really don't know.

The_Kew_Tour

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Correction, he's played in his preferred position 4 times. In one he did very well, in two he was moved back to left wing after 30 minutes not because he was playing badly but for the sake of the team, and against Shakhtar which I can't really remember but I doubt he was terrible.

If that's what people call a run of games, I really don't know.

Even taking into account playing on left wing his passing has still been poor. His decision making is not good enough either.

He is not a left winger and I sympathise there, but even that for what we expected we have not seen it.

Pity imo.

RasTa

Kagawa didn't impose himself on the game yet again. It's his own doing tbh.

beno619

Robson99 wrote: »

No thats laughable. The dog on the street knows RVP was our best player last year.
Grown in stature since becoming leader of our midfield???.He is the best of an average lot. Scholes being brought out of retirement highlighted our inadequate midfield.

Cleverly and Wilshere are good passers of the ball as well. If you are happy with a midfield of Carrick and Fletcher then good for you. An inadequate midfield id the root of most of our problems

RVP had a good year not great, there was a period were he went 8 or 9 games without scoring and generally played quite averagely.

Carrick won our player of the year which is an unopinionated fact and was also in the team of the year.

People are probably bored to death of Cleverley at this stage. But to compare him to players like Carrick and Wilshire is beyond a joke and borders on taking the p1ss.

Your Airbag

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

I agree with sentiment on Kagawa that he does seem to get away with poor performances unlike others.

Every now and again you see a flash of something from him, a turn or quick feet and the occasional glimmer of, so far, unfulfilled potential.





Its easy to tell the difference between a good player who can't make it work yet and an average one that has no more gears to go up.

Kagawa is the former. That is why I'm willing to give him the rest of the season and next to try and fit in with any new signings that come in the door.

It would be hard to say no if Dortmund asked for him back in a Reus/Gundogan deal.

If he did go and say Rooney gets injured who becomes our number 10? Adnan?

Rayne Wooney

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Even taking into account playing on left wing his passing has still been poor. His decision making is not good enough either.

He is not a left winger and I sympathise there, but even that for what we expected we have not seen it.

Pity imo.

Define poor, as in not creating anything?

Yes I agree his creative passing from the wing has been poor, that said there's no number 10 in the world who'd have killer creative passes from our left wing.

Robson99

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

However with that said today was another opportunity for him to play himself into the team and again whilst being neat and tidy he offered very little, people say that movement from our forwards was terrible, but this is the same Chico who loves to be on the shoulder of the last man, still nothing happened.

Ozil is a player who can significantly influence the game from the left and also from the 10, Mata is another player who can do both as can Hazzard, Kagawa has simply flattered to deceive when he's been played, there is just no getting around it.

To be fair Carrick Cleverly and Giggs were piss poor today and werent able to get the ball to Kagawa or run to support him when he had the ball.

Carrick and Cleverly are neat on the ball but they are too static. We need our midfield to push up and support. That is not happening and is not helping Kagawa or Rooney

The_Kew_Tour

Your Airbag wrote: »

Every now and again you see a flash of something from him, a turn or quick feet and the occasional glimmer of, so far, unfulfilled potential.



Its easy to tell the difference between a good player who can't make it work yet and an average one that has no more gears to go up.

Kagawa is the former. That is why I'm willing to give him the rest of the season and next to try and fit in with any new signings that come in the door.

It would be hard to say no if Dortmund asked for him back in a Reus/Gundogan deal.

If he did go and say Rooney gets injured who becomes our number 10? Adnan?

Yes im happy to keep him. If of course a swap with a Dortmund player we need then maybe that might need to be studied, but otherwise I like him to stay.

I know he has the ability, but he has show it.

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Define poor, as in not creating anything?

Yes I agree his creative passing from the wing has been poor, that said there's no number 10 in the world who'd have killer creative passes from our left wing.

Its much harder to create from left wing I agree, but even just half decent passes have seemed beyond him at times. I know he can do 10 times better.

He is type of player were he to have 2-3 good games in row it might unleash this quality. So far he has been unable to play couple of decent games on trot together.

Part of that is selection, but not all.

wadacrack

Dortmund play much differently to united. They get the ball up teh pitch much quicker . Their transition from defence is much quicker than United. With Kagawa in the 10 this would have meant much more space . He was keeping Mario Gotze out of the team. he just needs time and patience . A run of games also not just games here and there, Dortmund play alot more one touch football in the final third. United rely much more on wide play than Dortmund. Which dosent suit Kagawa strengths.

Robson99

beno619 wrote: »

RVP had a good year not great

You are taking the piss

The_Kew_Tour

wadacrack wrote: »

Dortmund play much differently to united. They get the ball up teh pitch much quicker . Their transition from defence is much quicker than United. With Kagawa in the 10 this would have meant much more space . He was keeping Mario Gotze out of the team. he just needs time and patience . A run of games also not just games here and there, Dortmund play alot more one touch football in the final third. United rely much more on wide play than Dortmund. Which dosent suit Kagawa strengths.

Good points there. Can see what you mean.

I do think United need play quicker tempo game.

We have the players for it too.

kryogen

Robson99 wrote: »

You are taking the piss

Depends on what he means, if he is talking about the calendar year 2013, he is pretty accurate, if he means last season the whole I would argue that RVP had a great season

MANUTD99

wadacrack wrote: »

Dortmund play much differently to united. They get the ball up teh pitch much quicker . Their transition from defence is much quicker than United. With Kagawa in the 10 this would have meant much more space . He was keeping Mario Gotze out of the team. he just needs time and patience . A run of games also not just games here and there, Dortmund play alot more one touch football in the final third. United rely much more on wide play than Dortmund. Which dosent suit Kagawa strengths.

Yeah would agree with this. Valencia is one of Uniteds quickest players. Perfect for counter attack football but never seems to happen anymore:(

Dortmund play like the United of the mid 90's

Robson99

kryogen wrote: »

Depends on what he means, if he is talking about the calendar year 2013, he is pretty accurate, if he means last season the whole I would argue that RVP had a great season

Sorry I was referring to last season. Either or he was excellent last year for us too. Same difference

kryogen

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Good points there. Can see what you mean.

I do think United need play quicker tempo game.

We have the players for it too.

A quicker tempo would be very welcome

Getting in top quality centre midfielders who are good in possession in tight areas and who can spot intelligent movement would free the shackles of someone like Kagawa, but while both RVP and Rooney are at the club I always see him struggling in the system we will be playing sadly.

Great player, just poor timing I think.

It will be interesting to see who Moyes brings in, the type of player he targets and if we can shift to a more fluid and high tempo passing game over the coming months. Im not certain its Moyes choice to be so ponderous in possession most of the time or if he just doesn't feel the midfield is strong enough yet to use that style. Fergie wasn't as negative in his style but the last few seasons haven't been great in terms of how we play.

The midfield needs to get fixed, and soon. It would make everything so much easier

kryogen

Robson99 wrote: »

Sorry I was referring to last season. Either or he was excellent last year for us too. Same difference

Nope, last season was great overall. This calendar year has not been fantastic though

Robson99

kryogen wrote: »

Nope, last season was great overall. This calendar year has not been fantastic though

Read the post again . He said last year. THIS IS 2013