Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14 Mod warning post #718

beno619

Robson99 wrote: »

You are taking the piss

By his standards it was a good year especially compared to his last season with Arsenal.

His general play in 2013 has been disappointing.

MANUTD99

kryogen wrote: »

A quicker tempo would be very welcome

Getting in top quality centre midfielders who are good in possession in tight areas and who can spot intelligent movement would free the shackles of someone like Kagawa, but while both RVP and Rooney are at the club I always see him struggling in the system we will be playing sadly.

Great player, just poor timing I think.

It will be interesting to see who Moyes brings in, the type of player he targets and if we can shift to a more fluid and high tempo passing game over the coming months. Im not certain its Moyes choice to be so ponderous in possession most of the time or if he just doesn't feel the midfield is strong enough yet to use that style. Fergie wasn't as negative in his style but the last few seasons haven't been great in terms of how we play.

The midfield needs to get fixed, and soon. It would make everything so much easier

A lot of clubs would die for this dilemma. We should be buying players to fit this system

kryogen

Robson99 wrote: »

Read the post again . He said last year. THIS IS 2013

I took it to mean this last year, as in 2013. He seems to clarified also that it is what he meant. Like I said, overall, as a season 2012/13 was fantastic for RVP, his play in the year 2013, that's Jan-May and Aug-Dec has not been that great.

Im not saying he has been **** either.

Mitch Connor

MANUTD99 wrote: »

Yeah would agree with this. Valencia is one of Uniteds quickest players. Perfect for counter attack football but never seems to happen anymore:(

Dortmund play like the United of the mid 90's

he's physically quick, but very slow on the ball in terms of decision making.

We need a number of new players to upgrade the team. All over the team we are too slow - either on the ball or off it.

At this stage we need to replace Evra at left back. We need at least one new central midfielder, and a new winger.

I still have faith in Kagawa, but think to get it out of him we need the entire team to be playing quicker. That isn't just to get Kagawa playing though, that is to actually improve our team and perforamnces, and give us a chance of being the best again.

Rooney, RVP, Kagawa, Januzaj - they would all benefit a lot from a far quicker tempo to the game - and United would as a result.

It is painful watching Southampton and Everton for example - and seeing so much more movement in their players.

Robson99

beno619 wrote: »

By his standards it was a good year especially compared to his last season with Arsenal.

His general play in 2013 has been disappointing.

He played well all last season imo. He hasnt been quiet as good so far this season but injuries and lack of creativity from midfield hasnt helped. Still think he will have a huge part to play in our season when he gets back

kryogen

MANUTD99 wrote: »

A lot of clubs would die for this dilemma. We should be buying players to fit this system

Of course, but that is a problem left by Fergie

He bought Kagawa, he had been targeted for a while, one would assume to let Rooney continue to lead the line as he had done brilliantly that season and play Kagawa in the number 10 role supporting him.

Then RVP becomes available out of the blue and he wants to join United. Fergie signs him and Kagawa suffers from it.

Kagawa has got to do more himself to force himself into the team for the record, but he is a victim of Fergies transfer policy aswell

Headshot

I would say Mitch that we need 2 CM's

Rayne Wooney

I'd add Nani to that list as well.

Transfer window is only 3 days away, I thought we'd be swimming in rumours by now.

MANUTD99

Mitch Connor wrote: »

he's physically quick, but very slow on the ball in terms of decision making.

We need a number of new players to upgrade the team. All over the team we are too slow - either on the ball or off it.

At this stage we need to replace Evra at left back. We need at least one new central midfielder, and a new winger.

I still have faith in Kagawa, but think to get it out of him we need the entire team to be playing quicker. That isn't just to get Kagawa playing though, that is to actually improve our team and perforamnces, and give us a chance of being the best again.

Rooney, RVP, Kagawa, Januzaj - they would all benefit a lot from a far quicker tempo to the game - and United would as a result.

It is painful watching Southampton and Everton for example - and seeing so much more movement in their players.

Fast forward to 50 seconds. For as long as I have been a united fan. Quick counter attack football has been the way. Need to get this back. Absent for a while now. One of my favorite goals also

Mitch Connor

Headshot wrote: »

I would say Mitch that we need 2 CM's

I think we need two overall, the issue would be an arguement over whether we need to replace Carrick in the first 11 as well as his non-existent partner.

Then the argument moves to who those two players should/could be.... reckon Fabregas could be tempted....?;):D

Oregano_State

RasTa wrote: »

Kagawa didn't impose himself on the game yet again. It's his own doing tbh.

Ozil tends to drift in and out of games, I wouldn't say he imposes himself on every game he plays. He was poor against us, and Chelsea for example.

I thought Kagawa showed some glimpses today of what he's capable of: a couple of nice interchanges on the wing, and one very good run that went most of the length of the pitch. He also gave the ball away a couple of times early on.

I agree with those who are saying our default style of play does not suit him. We need to play a higher tempo and be willing to play the ball to him in tight situations, that is where he will come into his own.

Robson99

Would love to spend the 100m that was set aside for Bale on Gundogan, Reus, Modric and Coentrao even if it meant Kagawa going back to Dortmund as part of the deal. Cant see this happening though.

wadacrack

Headshot wrote: »

I would say Mitch that we need 2 CM's

I agree with this. I think realistic targets would be Cabaye, Pjanic, Rakitic, Herrera( Played very well against Barca recently) Guarin has been linked. He has been playing in a very attacking role for Inter but did play as a box to box midfielder with Porto.Pjanic can play centre midfield but is more of ann attacking midfielder. In a two man midfield i am not too sure and since we do not play 3 man midfield often but in the latter stages of the champions league we may need too. All players are CL eligible. I think Herrera is most likely

Oregano_State

Robson99 wrote: »

Would love to spend the 100m that was set aside for Bale on Gundogan, Reus, Modric and Coentrao even if it meant Kagawa going back to Dortmund as part of the deal. Cant see this happening though.

MANUTD99

wadacrack wrote: »

I agree with this. I think realistic targets would be Cabaye, Pjanic, Rakitic, Herrera( Played very well against Barca recently) Guarin has been linked. He has been playing in a very attacking role for Inter but did play as a box to box midfielder with Porto.Pjanic can play centre midfield but is more of ann attacking midfielder. In a two man midfield i am not too sure and since we do not play 3 man midfield often but in the latter stages of the champions league we may need too. All players are CL eligible. I think Herrera is most likely

I'm not up to scratch with other people on this forum regarding players in foreign leagues but I have watched this lad a few times on Setanta/BT/ESPN. Has quite a good shot but he is brutal. Needs way too much time on the ball to do anything. Would not fit into PL. Please god we don't sign him.Waste of money

wadacrack

I dont think under Moyes we will see a quicker higher tempo style at least not this year. This is not Moyes and hes coaching staff style. The type of football Moyes wants to play relies heavily on good full back and good interchange with the wingers and full backs. We have seen this year how Evertons style has changed. Of course it is a different Everton side this year but the style has changed dramatically. In the first few weeks it was all wingplay how we penetrated in recent weeks with Rooney dropping we are a little bit less reliant on wing play

Rayne Wooney

If the direction Moyes is going is to play like Everton I'll lose all hope in us winning anything.

Teams are moving away from those kind of tactics, Liverpool are an example of a team benefitting from a fluid and fast attacking style.

Devil08

If Kags goes then who are we gonna get in to maintain our Asian quota of players!? Park left and Kags replaced him. Need to keep the shirt sales high!
My bet would be lee dong gook

MANUTD99

Devil08 wrote: »

If Kags goes then who are we gonna get in to maintain our Asian quota of players!? Park left and Kags replaced him. Need to keep the shirt sales high!
My bet would be lee dong gook

Selling jerseys in Asia has to be a myth. Fake jerseys are rife in that region. Thats why I reckon has shifted marketing towards USA

kryogen

Selling jerseys is a myth alright in terms of how much money the club actually sees from them!

DM_7

Kagawa is a class player without a doubt. So was Veron, as was Berbatov.

Sometimes it doesn't work out.

If it is going to work out then style of play will need to change. As mentioned movement, as well as speed of feet and mind is needed.

He has to take some of the blame, he has not played well at a times where players like Mata, Hazard, Oscar, Silva, Cazorla have adapted to the needs of the league. Of course injuries have not helped either.

PhlegmyMoses

Robson99 wrote: »

Would love to spend the 100m that was set aside for Bale on Gundogan, Reus, Modric and Coentrao even if it meant Kagawa going back to Dortmund as part of the deal. Cant see this happening though.

Agreed. I'd also like to spend the time I'd set aside for Jessica Alba on having a threesome with Mila Kunis, Scarlett Johansson and Natalie Portman. Can't see this happening though.

kryogen

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Agreed. I'd also like to spend the time I'd set aside for Jessica Alba on having a threesome with Mila Kunis, Scarlett Johansson and Natalie Portman. Can't see this happening though.

Certainly not, because if you want any part of that it would be a foursome

MANUTD99

We've been playing poor opposition the last few weeks and have struggled.

Looking the at the current top 9 we have not beaten any of them apart from Arsenal and only taken a point from Spurs, Soton,Chelsea

3 of those games have been at home too

kryogen

That's been the running joke here for weeks

TheDoc

Surely Moyes tactics at Everton were required due to the resources and personal.

Surely he cannot think that can be deployed at a club like United and not have eyebrows raised.

PhlegmyMoses

kryogen wrote: »

Certainly not, because if you want any part of that it would be a foursome

Nah, I'll just watch. I'm tired just thinking about the energy involved, tbh. Getting old.

PhlegmyMoses

MANUTD99 wrote: »

We've been playing poor opposition the last few weeks and have struggled.

Looking the at the current top 9 we have not beaten any of them apart from Arsenal and only taken a point from Spurs, Soton,Chelsea

3 of those games have been at home too

We were better than Spurs and Chelsea, so a bit of hope there. We also beat Liverpool in the cup. Different comp and all, but we both played strong enough sides.

The Spurs match in particular, we should have beaten them. Took a smart free-kick and a moment of genius to undo us. They were awful that day.

K4t

Kagawa is the kind of player who can improve an already structually sound team with a system in place that all the other players can implement effeciently. At United, he's playing in a team whose system of wingplay does not play to his strengths, in front of average midfielders with little creativity and wingers who blow hot and cold.

I've heard people say that the games against both Hull and Norwich didn't suit him? Ridiculous. That's the kind of argument that should only ever be applied to a squad player, and even then I'd be weary of their presence at the club.

It's hard to criticse Kagawa, the guy obviously has a good footballing brain, amazing touch, good vision and passing, but at a club like United, that's sometimes simply not enough to warrant a place in the starting 11. Something more is needed. He simply is not effective in his play. We need someone who will have an effect on the game in that position, stamp their authority on it. Kagawa doesn't seem to have the sort of variety to his game that when his normal game isn't working, he has no alternative. And at Utd, though he's not doing much wrong, it's not good enough and I'm not sure he's got anything different to offer.

Simply put, Kagawa's failure puts in perspective how magnificent a footballer Wayne Rooney is.

Pro. F

Regarding Kagawa, I don't think it's the style of our play that doesn't suit him but rather the quality. Arsenal, Barca, Munich and Real, for example, all play at a more steady pace than Dortmund, but I don't think Kagawa would have any problems fitting in with them. With The way we're playing this season I think ANY tricky number 10 type like Kagawa would struggle.

Rooney manages to make things happen for the team from that position because he is a monster who can work off scraps. Players like Ibra and Tevez might be able to impose themselves like Rooney in the United 10 slot because they too have ferocious physical ability. But I think players like Ozil, Gotse, Cazorla, etc would all struggle just like Kagawa in that role for this team.

Rayne Wooney

It's fantasy football stuff and we'll probably never see it but if we buy a CM in January, I'd love to see a 4-3-1-2 with Kagawa behind Rooney and RVP with two fullbacks providing width.

I think we could do well in Europe using something like that.

Blatter

Pro. F wrote: »

Regarding Kagawa, I don't think it's the style of our play that doesn't suit him but rather the quality. Arsenal, Barca, Munich and Real, for example, all play at a more steady pace than Dortmund, but I don't think Kagawa would have any problems fitting in with them. With The way we're playing this season I think ANY tricky number 10 type like Kagawa would struggle.

Rooney manages to make things happen for the team from that position because he is a monster who can work off scraps. Players like Ibra and Tevez might be able to impose themselves like Rooney in the United 10 slot because they too have ferocious physical ability. But I think players like Ozil, Gotse, Cazorla, etc would all struggle just like Kagawa in that role for this team.

I'm not too sure tbh. I would class Januzaj as a similar type of player to all of the above yet he seems to have little problem having a very positive influence on the United team in the current system whether he plays on the right, left or through the middle.

jaykay74

sigh I can only hope he is playing down expectations. I mean what he says is true, next Summer is also a tough time to do business being World Cup time so thats another one I guess followed by another Jan when its another bad time to do business. If you are focused on the excuses you will always find them.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/welbeck-breathes-life-into-uniteds-challenge-29872640.html

Moyes, indicated, however, that United were unlikely to make any moves in next month's transfer window to enliven their static midfield. "We won't be doing a lot of business," he said. "Most of the players won't be available in January." Shorn of both Rooney and Van Persie, still out with a thigh injury, United looked painfully exposed as they struggled to exert a grip on the game.

Mitch Connor

jaykay74 wrote: »

sigh I can only hope he is playing down expectations. I mean what he says is true, next Summer is also a tough time to do business being World Cup time so thats another one I guess followed by another Jan when its another bad time to do business. If you are focused on the excuses you will always find them.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/welbeck-breathes-life-into-uniteds-challenge-29872640.html

Under promise, hope to over deliver.... That's what I have heard. United know Jan is tough, but will be trying.

lordgoat

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Under promise, hope to over deliver.... That's what I have heard. United know Jan is tough, but will be trying.

Makes sense especially after the last window. All the better for Moyes et al if they say little business and then sign a few and say 'well the right playeers were available we got lucky'. Basically it keeps fans expectations reined in.

The_Kew_Tour

I still think United will at least get some decent signing in January.

Maybe 2 if things really go well.

I don't think we are going get real big name till summer but that ain't too surprising.

hufpc8w3adnk65

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

I still think United will at least get some decent signing in January.

Maybe 2 if things really go well.

I don't think we are going get real big name till summer but that ain't too surprising.

So you don't think Rues is a big name?

The_Kew_Tour

MrMac84 wrote: »

So you don't think Rues is a big name?

Don't think we have much chance of getting him ;-)

adox

One point that is starting to irritate me a little is De Geas reluctance to come for crosses.

Now I'd like to add that I really rate him as a keeper and it's probably the least of Utds problems at the moment, but the outfield discussions have all been covered.

Now I understand that he has worked on this part of his game in the last season or so and his looked mostly assured when coming out for the ball in the air and I understand that he is not the type of keeper who is going to come for everything and instead rely on his defenders to clear the ball, but it is starting to get beyond that point with his decision making.

The ball is being crossed into the six yard box and more often than not he's staying on his line. It's just inviting trouble. There comes a time not matter how reluctant you are as a keeper, to come for a ball when you have to commit and he simply isn't doing it a lot of the time. I'd prefer to see him come and have a few flaps than just stay on his line.

As I said I love the guy, really rate him and it's way down the list of issues the team have but he really needs to address this if he wants to be among the best in the game.

adox

The quiter the better for this transfer window as far as I am concerned after the shambolic episodes of the summer. It's still fresh in the memory and a total embarrassment to the club.

I'd expect at most one player signed and no one of real note.

The_Kew_Tour

adox wrote: »

The quiter the better for this transfer window as far as I am concerned after the shambolic episodes of the summer. It's still fresh in the memory and a total embarrassment to the club.

I'd expect at most one player signed and no one of real note.

Ya I can what you mean, still think we be munching around to sign player or 2.

If we don't buy anyone by last week don't think we will get someone.

Mitch Connor

adox wrote: »

The quiter the better for this transfer window as far as I am concerned after the shambolic episodes of the summer. It's still fresh in the memory and a total embarrassment to the club.

I'd expect at most one player signed and no one of real note.

IMO if we don't reinforce the midfield in January, we won't make the top 4. We can't afford to not buy in January.

homerjay2005

things look a little better in the sense that we finally are at least beating all the teams below us and slowly but surely are moving up the table and closing gaps.

however, the real challenge lies ahead when we start to play the top teams, who we have struggled against all season. realistically we will need at least 5 wins (minimum 16 points) from those 8 games compared to only one in the first half of the season. they are -

Liverpool, Spurs & City at home.

Everton, Newcastle,Arsenal, Chelsea, Southampton all away.

When you look at it like that, its baffling that people were saying our fixture list was more difficult than the others. for example Liverpool have only us and Southampton away, they have all the other teams at home which is scary prospect. City however i think have 6 of those teams away which is something to be positive about.

the 4 wins certainly changes things in terms of where we can end up. based on his last 8 years, Moyes normally increases his points total by about 26% when you compare the first 19 games to the second 19 games. that would leave us on 77 points and that should be enough to get us 3rd normally.

i think most people would take that now to be honest.

magnumbud

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

It's fantasy football stuff and we'll probably never see it but if we buy a CM in January, I'd love to see a 4-3-1-2 with Kagawa behind Rooney and RVP with two fullbacks providing width.

I think we could do well in Europe using something like that.

Tbh he has not shown the form since joining the club to change our formation to force him in.

I get that he's been played on the left a good bit but while maybe not reaching his best he should at least shine enough in that role and try enough to force Moyes to not drop him. Januzaj best role is probably the same position but more than capable out wide. If anyone deserves on form formations changes to suit its him

Oregano_State

If we got Reus in Jan and nobody else it wouldn't be much good. There is ONE big problem that needs addressing before anything else.

Rayne Wooney

I'll be disappointed if Moyes doesn't try and get Gundogan in January.

Dortmund have their price, like they did for Götze, I think Gundogans release clause is fairly lower than Götze's was even.

The last report says that Gundogan gets just 30k a week at Dortmund, we could triple that to put him on the same as Ashley Young, you could even quadruple it and it wouldn't be a crazy amount.


There was an article in here before from 2011 I think that quoted him saying United would be a dream club, so at least we know he has some interest in the club and hopefully it's not just the Robbie Keane kind. Using Kagawa as a bargaining tool would put things in our favour as well, it seems Klopp has a bit of man love for him going by the quotes since he's left.

It's not impossible that we could lure him away.

beno619

Oregano_State wrote: »

If we got Reus in Jan and nobody else it wouldn't be much good. There is ONE big problem that needs addressing before anything else.

With Fletch coming back and hopefully Jones, we may be able to get by with what we have and finishing in the top 4. A proper midfielder and we could win the league.

The fact that we can be so poor and still be in with a shot a winning the league would point to the teams ahead of us not being as good as people would make out.

homerjay2005

Oregano_State wrote: »

If we got Reus in Jan and nobody else it wouldn't be much good. There is ONE big problem that needs addressing before anything else.

while what you say has an element of truth in it, bringing in a marquee signing like Reus would lift the entire team.

look at the effect RVP had on us last year, Ozil this year to Arsenal etc etc. not sure where we would fit in Reus though, wouldnt it be just moving the Kagawa problem onto another player?

either way, id be willing to put alot of money on the fact that we will not sign Reus in January and we wont even be close to it. i am of course happy to be proved wrong here, but i just cant see it happening and its unlikely in the summer also.

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

I'll be disappointed if Moyes doesn't try and get Gundogan in January.

Dortmund have their price, like they did for Götze, I think Gundogans release clause is fairly lower than Götze's was even.

Gundagon is definitely possible and Kagawa could be key to the deal.

kryogen

Blatter wrote: »

I'm not too sure tbh. I would class Januzaj as a similar type of player to all of the above yet he seems to have little problem having a very positive influence on the United team in the current system whether he plays on the right, left or through the middle.

Jan is far more adept at playing from the wings though, it comes a lot more naturally to him. He has also not been as good as the hype would suggest but he gets an easy ride because he is A. A youth product B. 18 years of age C. Clearly has huge potential and we all want to see him do well

I see where you are coming from though and that's why I have also that Kag needs to do more regardless of the other factors. I might be being harsh on him because I do believe that it is incredibly difficult for him with nothing behind and no good movement in front and his game isn't really about running at players and trying to draw frees

Oregano_State

homerjay2005 wrote: »

while what you say has an element of truth in it, bringing in a marquee signing like Reus would lift the entire team.

look at the effect RVP had on us last year, Ozil this year to Arsenal etc etc. not sure where we would fit in Reus though, wouldnt it be just moving the Kagawa problem onto another player?

either way, id be willing to put alot of money on the fact that we will not sign Reus in January and we wont even be close to it. i am of course happy to be proved wrong here, but i just cant see it happening and its unlikely in the summer also.

Yeah I can't seeing it happen in January either. I'd say Reus is an inverted winger. Very pacy and skillful, great at dribbling. He would fit into our team as it is better than Kagawa, but I really want Kagawa to succeed. A change in emphasis as well as personnel is most likely needed to achieve this unfortunately.