Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14 Mod warning post #718

homerjay2005

ericzeking wrote: »

If it's one thing that does give confidence it's the fact he has tried to address the midfield problem .

ah come off it, how can you say this? every football fan in the country has identified this yet you are willing to praise one of the highest paid men in world football for spotting it also?

confidence is the one word i would not use to describe the situation, considering that he identified it as you say, yet couldnt solve it.

ericzeking wrote: »

Now identifying them and getting them are two different things but I'm not sure Moyes is directly 100% responsible for not getting the deals done.

a stronger, more confident manager would have more of a say and pulling power. i cant imagine many world class players had even heard of Moyes before he got the job. when ever our top scorer from last season had to be consoled by our outgoing manager, it says enough and if he wants out (depending on whether you believe the stories or not) you cant imagine too many players wanting in.

Technophobe

homerjay2005 wrote: »

not really to be honest, just heard that theres 2 deals in the pipeline, but the lad who told me (a journalist, not a "mate" as one certain person here keeps obsessing about) wouldnt say who.

our next three signings will be a Left Back, center back and a creative midfield player though not necessarily a predominately central one.

apparently we have a scout in Lisbon at the moment watching William Carvalho so he could be one, but again it seems very half assed that we are watching a player now and didnt get this work done September to december allowing us proper time to have this signed and sealed once the window opens.

Herrara and Fabio Coentrao obviously are in there, but i dont think we will match Herraras release clause so thats a no go. no doubt we will try for Baines again, i reckon a deadline day scramble for him is coming. its brainless though....Coentrao much cheaper, younger and wanted by Juve, Milan, Spurs and a host of clubs yet we will persue Baines, 30 next year, relatively unproven and wanted by nobody apart from us.[/QUOTE]

..and probably still NOT get him;)

..Not that I want him either at that age and the money Everton will look for

tallaghtmick

Berba to Arsenal looking likely, now we'll see if hes proves the doubters (me) wrong.

Rayne Wooney

homerjay2005 wrote: »

i dont know why people on this forum keep obsessing with this number 10 b*llix.

There is absolutely no reason why we could not have a team with somebody like Mata and then RVP and Rooney in it. the reason Kagawa is not working is that he is not doing it himself, nothing to do with tactics or anything, he is just not playing well.

Wayne Rooneys best position is striker, he scores goals and he should be our closes player to goal, with RVP beside him. The reason our creatvity is so sh*it, is because the other 4 lads who are being picked, are all playing s*it and its nothing to do with Rooney. i wish people would just stop wasting time on a discussion about a position that has no bearing on how we are playing and more importantly has nothing to do with our troubles - our problems are elsewhere.

cant see Mata signing for us though, so it is all irrelevent.

Surely you realise that you can't play the same tactics we do with a specialty player like him out left wing, a prime example of Moyes' naivety tactically, he still plays the same crossing system we always do and doesn't even bother trying to tailor the tactics to suit players. To say it's nothing to do with the tactics/positioning is ridiculous, for me it's majorly to do with these.

PhlegmyMoses

One positive we have against the mega rich teams is that their midfields are mostly locked down.

Barca's strongest area is midfield.
City bought Fernandinho in the summer.
Chelsea's strongest area is also in midfield.
Madrid bought Illaramendi in the summer to add to Alonso, Khedeira etc.
PSG may be in for a midfielder but it's not an immediate concern.

Even the likes of Arsenal, Juve et al, are stacked in midfield. Liverpool will probably be in the hunt but we can beat them for raw spending power.

If this wasn't a World Cup year, I'd be saying that it would be criminal not to do everything to get a deal done this transfer window.

Julez

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Surely you realise that you can't play the same tactics we do with a specialty player like him out left wing, a prime example of Moyes' naivety tactically, he still plays the same crossing system we always do and doesn't even bother trying to tailor the tactics to suit players. To say it's nothing to do with the tactics/positioning is ridiculous, for me it's majorly to do with these.

"Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid."
Albert Einstein

ericzeking

homerjay2005 wrote: »

ah come off it, how can you say this? every football fan in the country has identified this yet you are willing to praise one of the highest paid men in world football for spotting it also?

confidence is the one word i would not use to describe the situation, considering that he identified it as you say, yet couldnt solve it.

Fergie didn't address it for years...anyways, I'm not getting into a tooing and froing match over something that's been done to death.

I thought your take was that Woodward was a buffoon only interested in Taytos and Tyres and that's why the deals weren't done.... when you were feigning support for Moyes and "feeling sorry for him"?

It's the managers fault now, which is it?

Personally I think they are both responsible but I don't think it is as simple as you do.

I only dipped in and out over the holidays.....Jesus, I missed you!!!

homerjay2005

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

To say it's nothing to do with the tactics/positioning is ridiculous, for me it's majorly to do with these.

you are talking about two separate issues there. we are talking about Rooney and this bulls*it number 10 role that was invented by football manager and Jamie Redknapp.

players who dont have a decent work rate, normally struggle at United - its been like that for 20+ years and Kagawa is just the latest exception. he is a gifted football, but not at the level needed to byepass his lack of workrate in the english game.

its amazing that City for example are able to play two out and out strikers, yet at the same time are able to play Navas and Silva, with even Nasri in there at times.

the difference? they have a proper central midfield and Silva is actually functioning in a role that kagawa tries to play, but just cannot do it.

ericzeking wrote: »

I thought your take was that Woodward was a buffoon only interested in Taytos and Tyres and that's why the deals weren't done.... when you were feigning support for Moyes and "feeling sorry for him"?

It's the managers fault now, which is it?

ive made it clear all along, that both of them are to blame for the mess thats happened. a stronger manager however, would at least have not allowed it to happen and somebody like Jose for example would have had more pulling power than Moyes, along with more ambition and experience.

how can that not be clear to you?

Lord TSC

DM-ICE wrote: »

If i remember correctly you had faith in Moyes and his targets during the summer, what changed in the recruitment side of things to do that?

Playing performance of existing players can't be an indicator of how good he will be at recruiting players.

But the above isn't relevant if I am remembering incorrectly.

Basically, there's two major factors as to why my attitude is different now than it was then.

1. During the summer window, people were bashing Moyes without much to go on other than a slow start. I called people out who were using words like "disgrace" and "embarrassment" two weeks into a 3 month window, and I stand by the opinion that those were over reactions back then. However, I also said if the deadline day passed and we hadn't addressed issues, then I would also be upset.

I was happy with the Fel signing; I have said constantly that if Fergie had made that buy over the summer, I'd have been happy, since I thought he was exactly what we needed. The link to Fel, along with the fact Moyes nearly instantly identified our midfield problems, meant that when he started the job, I had faith in him to bring in solutions to our main problems.

But the window didn't work out. Despite signing Fel, it was a PR nightmare and I also believe Moyes became so focused on getting unobtainable targets, he never worked on the realistic targets. So in part then, it's his preformance in the last transfer window that has me worried for this one.

2. Secondly, you say you can't use on the pitch performances to judge his ability to buy players, but I disagree. I look at the archaic tactics he's using and worry that rather than buying top players who can play an attractive style of football, he'll just buy in players to suit the negative tactics. He's been unable to motivate the majority of players who won the league last year, and has shown very little signs of wanting to play a style other than "Defend then hoof it up to the lone striker". A lot of people will blame the players, but I see Moyes' tactics as being a major problem right now.

Some people may have faith in him to bring in players and change the style of football he's been using for the last few months. I personally fear he'll bring in players who will be more suited to playing that negative football, and just solidify it into how we play for a longer period of time.

I have no reason, based on what I've seen of him at United so far, to have faith in his ability to buy in the players we'll need to challenge for the title again.

Backstreet Moyes

DDG, Smalling, Jones, Rafael, Evans, Janjuaz, Fabio and Wellbeck all young and can only get better. I am going to include Fellaini because he is youngish and will come good.

Henriquez, Powell, Lingard, Keane's and Perrerira all look like they have bright futures ahead of them .

Evra, Ferdinand, Buttner, Valencia, Young, Giggs, Cleverley, Anderson should not be starting for a club that wants to challenge in Europe and for the league.

Key players Vidic, Rooney, RVP, Carrick and at this stage i have my doubts but if Nani can get back to his old form. Kagawa again wonderful player if we could get him into his best position he could be lethal.

The club over the next year or two needs to phase out the deadwood and bring the younger players into the squad. I don't mind Cleverley staying as a squad player but that's all.

Your Airbag

Lol at people saying UTD will struggle to attract players. This is UTD, you don't erase all the recent modern success with a bad season. Multiple leagues, always in the UCL knockouts. Players, top players will want to play for us. Its competing with the lure of La Liga plus the tax breaks and the rich owner EPL clubs that is the problem, not UTD being no longer good enough for them.

homerjay2005 wrote: »

. when ever our top scorer from last season had to be consoled by our outgoing manager, it says enough and if he wants out (depending on whether you believe the stories or not) you cant imagine too many players wanting in.

Have you got a source on this? I have heard this banded around from you before and never heard anything to confirm it. It seems like one of the usual "if i say it enough it will stick" lines. RVP has said he has no problem with Moyes.

homerjay2005 wrote: »

ive made it clear all along, that both of them are to blame for the mess thats happened. a stronger manager however, would at least have not allowed it to happen and somebody like Jose for example would have had more pulling power than Moyes, along with more ambition and experience.

how can that not be clear to you?

The same Jose who couldn't get a striker in during the window. Who failed to get Rooney from us, thanks to Moyes. The same Jose who ended up signing a 32 yr old Eto?

homerjay2005 wrote: »

.
....Coentrao much cheaper, younger and wanted by Juve, Milan, Spurs and a host of clubs yet we will persue Baines, 30 next year, relatively unproven and wanted by nobody apart from us.

Baines unproven and not wanted by anyone else? You must be joking right? One of the highest chance creators in Europe and I'm sure mny clubs who snap him up.

Moyes went for Coentrao and may do so again. From an EPL point of view Baines is better but the age is not ideal. I know some Madrid fans that have no problem with Coentrao getting dropped, he goes missing in defense ala Evra apparently.

Your fondness of Jose to get the job is well documented but some of your points are awash with contradictions and hearsay.

Moyes is struggling, but lets see him get in players and see what he does then. If he gets it together he will be a better long term manager than Jose, who's antics are just childish at times.

Headshot

TBH didnt RVP say Fergie was a big influence on him moving to utd, would he still of moved if Moyes was in charge?

DM_7

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Basically, there's two major factors as to why my attitude is different now than it was then.

Not going to quote the whole lot, its a personal opinion so I am not going to go into a mad reply countering every point but I do disagree with your conclusions.

I was disappointed with the end result of the summer window as well but I still regard that window as a one off and it was subsequent windows that judgements should be made. The PR issues were not his fault and even if they were it wouldn't be an indication of his ability to identify the right players.

On the point about type of players he would buy. Two of his targets were Fabregas and Herrera so I think that suggests he is not trying to buy players for an archaic system. The system used at the moment is to bypass an uncreative midfield (maybe that should be misfield) by getting the ball into wide areas, advancing up the pitch and get the ball into the box. Its not hoofing the ball up field as suggested.

Since his arrival a focus on ball retention is clear to see and the fault is in how possession is used to create chances. That's a personnel issue and for me, targets from last summer indicate an intention to improve on that part of the team.

homerjay2005

Your Airbag wrote: »

The same Jose who ended up signing a 32 yr old Eto?

the same Jose who is on course to become the most successful manger in the games history with a squad sitting 9 points ahead of us at the moment? the same Jose who needed a settled club, a club where the manager is supported and left to do what he pleases. jose was ideal for Untied and United were the ideal match for him - we needed a personality bigger than the club like Ferguson was, who was not exempt from childish behaviour himself.

regarding RVP, you honestly expect him to come out and say he has a problem with Moyes? the source for all this are numerous places, including SAF who himself admitted he had to apologise to him when he retired. i am pretty sure this would have been softened by a proper, world class manager. funninly enough, talk comes out from various quarters about wrong training methods in pre season and how RVP is not happy with it, suddenly he starts picking up multiple knocks.

if fergie retired 12 months earlier, RVP wouldnt have signed for us. if you think otherwise, then thats your own opinion. one of us is wrong and i think we all know, its likely to be you.

if many clubs are chasing up Baines, then where are their bids for him and why are we the only ones linked with him for the past 2 years? and where were the clubs chasing up Moyes for that matter? you have this idealistic, somewhat fanboy childish opinion that we have a devine right to players...i hate to break it to you, but we dont. we struggled as it is to sign players as champions, if that doesnt tell you enough already, then that bubble you live in needs bursting and pretty quick.

it happened to Liverpool and it will happen to us too...it already started once Fergie left.

beno619

http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11667/9098218/manchester-united-striker-wayne-rooney-struggling-with-groin-problem-says-david-moyes

Wayne Rooney is struggling with a groin problem to add to the injury worries currently being faced by Manchester United's beleaguered manager David Moyes.

Moyes admits the striker's injury will have to be managed carefully over the coming weeks, especially as the club's other main forward, Robin van Persie, has not yet recovered from a thigh strain.

I dont see why Moyes keeps rushing players back before there ready.
RVP and Rooney have both been poor after being rushed back by Moyes and just end up doing more damage. More examples or poor management imo.

Adamcp898

Your Airbag wrote: »

Lol at people saying UTD will struggle to attract players. This is UTD, you don't erase all the recent modern success with a bad season. Multiple leagues, always in the UCL knockouts. Players, top players will want to play for us. Its competing with the lure of La Liga plus the tax breaks and the rich owner EPL clubs that is the problem, not UTD being no longer good enough for them.

Don't really see what you're laughing at tbh

Even at the height of our success we struggled to compete for the tier 1 signings.

spiralism

Your Airbag wrote: »

Lol at people saying UTD will struggle to attract players. This is UTD, you don't erase all the recent modern success with a bad season. Multiple leagues, always in the UCL knockouts. Players, top players will want to play for us. Its competing with the lure of La Liga plus the tax breaks and the rich owner EPL clubs that is the problem, not UTD being no longer good enough for them.




Have you got a source on this? I have heard this banded around from you before and never heard anything to confirm it. It seems like one of the usual "if i say it enough it will stick" lines. RVP has said he has no problem with Moyes.



The same Jose who couldn't get a striker in during the window. Who failed to get Rooney from us, thanks to Moyes. The same Jose who ended up signing a 32 yr old Eto?





Baines unproven and not wanted by anyone else? You must be joking right? One of the highest chance creators in Europe and I'm sure mny clubs who snap him up.

Moyes went for Coentrao and may do so again. From an EPL point of view Baines is better but the age is not ideal. I know some Madrid fans that have no problem with Coentrao getting dropped, he goes missing in defense ala Evra apparently.

Your fondness of Jose to get the job is well documented but some of your points are awash with contradictions and hearsay.

Moyes is struggling, but lets see him get in players and see what he does then. If he gets it together he will be a better long term manager than Jose, who's antics are just childish at times.

You'd be surprised. This is the sort of thing Liverpool fans said when they were out in the cold the last few years. Didn't draw the top talent and had to settle for signing players who werent the finished article at the time like Henderson and Suarez(In fairness it's panned out well now but they had to go through a few managers, often terrible play and some right lemons of footballers in along with them). Players aren't going to want to join a Utd side without champions league football on the back of our name. Couple that with the fact that there's still a shadow of a huge debt on the club and that we've often struggled to compete with the big names in the transfer market for years and we're in trouble.

Moyes will not get anyone of note in until the summer, top players are not going to switch clubs 6 months before a world cup and jeapordise their chances of going, it would be madness. By then we could have finished 7th and nobody will want in anyways.

Timmyctc

beno619 wrote: »

http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11667/9098218/manchester-united-striker-wayne-rooney-struggling-with-groin-problem-says-david-moyes



I dont see why Moyes keeps rushing players back before there ready.
RVP and Rooney have both been poor after being rushed back by Moyes and just end up doing more damage. More examples or poor management imo.

Rooney is our best player and has consistently been the case. I'd be rushing him back from a broken leg the way our team is looking at the moment. He has been playing quite well too. Yesterday his range of passing in the second half is what led to all our attacks basically Rooney Diagonal ball > Januzaj > goalmouth scramble > corner from rooney/januzaj > Goalmouth scramble (Rinse repeat, don't score >.< )

Your Airbag

homerjay2005 wrote: »

the same Jose who is on course to become the most successful manger in the games history with a squad sitting 9 points ahead of us at the moment? the same Jose who needed a settled club, a club where the manager is supported and left to do what he pleases. jose was ideal for Untied and United were the ideal match for him - we needed a personality bigger than the club like Ferguson was, who was not exempt from childish behaviour himself.

regarding RVP, you honestly expect him to come out and say he has a problem with Moyes? the source for all this are numerous places, including SAF who himself admitted he had to apologise to him when he retired. i am pretty sure this would have been softened by a proper, world class manager. funninly enough, talk comes out from various quarters about wrong training methods in pre season and how RVP is not happy with it, suddenly he starts picking up multiple knocks

Jose has been give and endless pit of money where ever he moved. That helps him be successful. Chelsea are starting to play well after a poor start but I can't see the competing for the title. They will be top four and I fancy us to make it there too.

RVP says talking to VDS was a big influence on his move. I'm sure he was sad to see Fergie go but what has this got to do with Moyes? Fergie decided to leave and it will have let a lot of players down. Unless its being spun as Fergie had to console RVP about who was coming in I don't see the relevance of it in relation to Moyes struggles.

Your Airbag

spiralism wrote: »

You'd be surprised. This is the sort of thing Liverpool fans said when they were out in the cold the last few years. Didn't draw the top talent and had to settle for signing players who werent the finished article at the time like Henderson and Suarez(In fairness it's panned out well now but they had to go through a few managers, often terrible play and some right lemons of footballers in along with them). Players aren't going to want to join a Utd side without champions league football on the back of our name. Couple that with the fact that there's still a shadow of a huge debt on the club and that we've often struggled to compete with the big names in the transfer market for years and we're in trouble.

Moyes will not get anyone of note in until the summer, top players are not going to switch clubs 6 months before a world cup and jeapordise their chances of going, it would be madness. By then we could have finished 7th and nobody will want in anyways.

No. Its UTD, one of the biggest and most supported names in football. One bad season will not take away that.

You use Liverpool as an example. 26 yrs without a league title, lots of non UCL seasons yet they get good players such as Suarez and Coutinho.

Adamcp898 wrote: »

Don't really see what you're laughing at tbh

Even at the height of our success we struggled to compete for the tier 1 signings.

Rooney, Rio, RVN, RVP, Cantona, Keane, Veron. Ozil wanted to join apparent.

gosplan

Is Kagawa wonderful though?

I mean, what are we basing this on aside from his Dortmund days?

For me there's a bit if the Alex Hlebs about him.

Mitch Connor

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2532380/Moyes-closing-securing-6m-rated-striker-Muric-bargain-300-000.html

anchester United are in talks over a deal for Dinamo Zagreb’s Robert Muric.
Manager David Moyes may be able to secure the 17-year-old striker for just £300,000 in compensation despite the player being valued at £6million.

Apparently we are close to signing this fella and another young fella, a bulgarian U21 centre back - 17 years old, was on trial over christmas - Velkov

Oregano_State

gosplan wrote: »

Is Kagawa wonderful though?

I mean, what are we basing this on aside from his Dortmund days?

For me there's a bit if the Alex Hlebs about him.

Kagawa will prove his doubters so wrong in the near future. It's starting to look less likely that that will happen at Man United though.

Rayne Wooney

Liverpool go after average/good players and hope to mould them into top players because that's what their budget dictates.

The problem is we've been signing too many average players for a supposed elite team and neglected signing top players when the same standard left the club. So we now need to buy top players, and we've only ourselves to blame.

spiralism

Went back to old posts just to see what i said Re: Moyes being hired

I'm sure Liverpool fans everywhere are rejoicing at the thought of Moyes being the next Utd manager

Moyes taking on City's billions, Wenger (who has traditionally had his number) and Mourinho's Chelsea is a frankly terrifying prospect. If Spurs push on next year too, we would do well to finish in the top four next season.

The way people are talking about what Moyes did at Everton is hilarious too. You would swear he took them up from league one. Everton are one of the bigger clubs in the league ffs, he just took them from out of the wilderness to above average.

This is incredibly uninspiring and very disappointing, a decision that will haunt this club like Souness's appointment did to Liverpool. His only quality is longevity in his job, he has no trophies and his philosophy is awful outdated football. No european experience. Make no mistake, this is a backwards move, we need to be coming in line with modern football, not going in reverse to the 20th century. Never dealt with big egos or a budget. Zero wins away to Liverpool, Arsenal or Chelsea in ten years.Has the charisma of a used tampon. Allardyce with ginger hair.

David ****ing Moyes. Jesus wept.

Comparing Fergie post Aberdeen to Moyes now is completely laughable. Fergie broke the old firm dominance and won a cup winners cup at Aberdeen. Moyes ran up debt winning nothing (wages 75% of turnover) and finishing around 8th every year at Everton. In terms of finances, Everton rank 8th in the league. The most remarkable achievement in Moyes's career is not getting sacked.

A lot of that seemed reactionary at the time but it's all coming true. He's not fit for the job at all, has shown absolutely nothing to indicate he's able for it. Day after New Years day and we're 7th as Champions. That is absolute car crash material and worse than even the most negative people predicted. The football is horrendous, we barely have a plan A, never mind a plan B, we're predictably rubbish playing any half decent sides and finishing in the top 4 would be amazing at this rate. He's our Souness and has done untold damage to the club already.

We can harp on about how we need to give him a chance and back him, but at what point do we say "enough is enough"? If we finish 7th and don't even qualify for the Europa League does the club still have to blindly stand by him?

Your Airbag

homerjay2005 wrote: »

if fergie retired 12 months earlier, RVP wouldnt have signed for us. if you think otherwise, then thats your own opinion. one of us is wrong and i think we all know, its likely to be you.

if many clubs are chasing up Baines, then where are their bids for him and why are we the only ones linked with him for the past 2 years? and where were the clubs chasing up Moyes for that matter? you have this idealistic, somewhat fanboy childish opinion that we have a devine right to players...i hate to break it to you, but we dont. we struggled as it is to sign players as champions, if that doesnt tell you enough already, then that bubble you live in needs bursting and pretty quick.

it happened to Liverpool and it will happen to us too...it already started once Fergie left.

I'll reply to this post again because you retrospectively edited mainly it to include lots of insults.

I'm likely to be wrong about RVP not signing for us had Fergie gone 12 months earlier? Well that question was never asked and you just introduced it and answered it for me so I guess I don't need to.

So Fergie and Moyes both wanted Baines. Best manager of all time must see something in him. You honestly think nobody else would want Baines? Nobody has bid DDG yet? I guess nobody wants him.

you have this idealistic, somewhat fanboy childish opinion that we have a devine right to players...i hate to break it to you, but we dont.

I have no such expectations that we have a devine right. Your simply unable to accept a differing opinion and result to insults. I said our recent history and name is strong enough to allow us to compete yet you twist into a childish fanboy insult. Rubbish.

You don't think UTD can sign big players because of one season? So how to teams ever recover or rebuild after bad periods? History and numerous examples prove you wrong on this

This is pure crap but what I expect. I'm a UTD fan alright? Whats the difference between that and a fan-boy? I'm not sure its even a proper word.

I have been critical of UTD, Moyes and the team plenty of times.

If your going to engage in discussion Homerjay you have to be prepared that a differnt opinion will be held by someone else. This is not something to get worked up about, its normal. I'd appreciate if you didn't lie and paint a completely false picture of my posts because you don't like my opinions.

Maximus Alexander

spiralism wrote: »

You'd be surprised. This is the sort of thing Liverpool fans said when they were out in the cold the last few years. Didn't draw the top talent and had to settle for signing players who werent the finished article at the time like Henderson and Suarez(In fairness it's panned out well now but they had to go through a few managers, often terrible play and some right lemons of footballers in along with them). Players aren't going to want to join a Utd side without champions league football on the back of our name. Couple that with the fact that there's still a shadow of a huge debt on the club and that we've often struggled to compete with the big names in the transfer market for years and we're in trouble.

Moyes will not get anyone of note in until the summer, top players are not going to switch clubs 6 months before a world cup and jeapordise their chances of going, it would be madness. By then we could have finished 7th and nobody will want in anyways.

What you're not factoring in is that Liverpool had (have) not won a title in over two decades. United won it last year. I think it would take a lot more than one poor season to put players off a club of United's stature.

Agueroooo

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Liverpool go after average/good players and hope to mould them into top players because that's what their budget dictates.

.

Yep with the stadium redevelopment it is a restrictive budget alright, but sometimes buying cheap is a false economy, and you end up buying twice.

We have done OK with 'moudling' a few but there is also two or three players floating around the squad that I wouldn't have minded one top class player instead of.

Its the likes of City and Chelsea spunking millions on a single signing, and when wages added it simply blows most of us out of the water.

But looking at the way City and Chelsea are snapping up nearly every young talent across the globe I am hoping they are taking FFP seriously, and we have seachange in the very near future.

spiralism

Your Airbag wrote: »

No. Its UTD, one of the biggest and most supported names in football. One bad season will not take away that.

You use Liverpool as an example. 26 yrs without a league title, lots of non UCL seasons yet they get good players such as Suarez and Coutinho.




Rooney, Rio, RVN, RVP, Cantona, Keane, Veron. Ozil wanted to join apparent.

Suarez and Coutinho were nowhere near the finished article when they joined in all fairness. Suarez in particular was signed alongside a right cast of rabbits like Carroll and Downing for example and it was in a transfer window where they'd lost a crucial player (who turned out to flop of course but they weren't even strengthening at that point rather than replacing).

Whether or not Ozil apparently wanted to join is irrelevant, he's playing at the Emirates now. In fact it would be worse if that's the case as it would have been another botched move to file alongside Thiago, Fabregas :rolleyes:, Herrera, Coentrao and Baines (before you ever consider the considerable early season rumours that there was a huge transfer incoming last summer which was subsequently botched). Look at the players who refused us this summer meanwhile. People know a lemon when they see one.

We're not going to get players without european football and especially after being reduced to a fraction of our budget because of said lack of european football. Sure when Liverpool fans said similar things about players wanting to join them on their name a few years ago, many of us laughed. Players knew what drove the club was Fergie and signed because they knew they'd win things under him. Players are not going to want to join to play rubbish football under Moyes, finish 7th and not qualify for Europe.

beno619

Timmyctc wrote: »

Rooney is our best player and has consistently been the case. I'd be rushing him back from a broken leg the way our team is looking at the moment. He has been playing quite well too. Yesterday his range of passing in the second half is what led to all our attacks basically Rooney Diagonal ball > Januzaj > goalmouth scramble > corner from rooney/januzaj > Goalmouth scramble (Rinse repeat, don't score >.< )

Sure Ronney is our best player but what happened yesterday is not the answer.

Rooney clearly wasn't fit and was ineffective for most of the match. A match we ended up loosing. Similarly to RVP and the Newcastle game. RVP has now been out for how long ?

Bridge93

Your Airbag wrote: »

Rooney, Rio, RVN, RVP, Cantona, Keane, Veron. Ozil wanted to join apparent.

Did Ozil not choose Arsenal over Utd or did I hear that wrong?
Keane also made his name at Utd, he was not a tier one signing at the time, nor 18 year old Rooney. Utd don't have a huge history of signing big big names as the likes of the two above and Ronaldo etc developed into stars at the club which probably works out better for a club than spending huge money. Also the first 10 years of success were built on the class of '92 when there wasn't a need for loads of big signings as the club produced much of its talent. Don't think we'll see the likes of that again though.
For a team that has dominated for 20 odd years it's remarkable how little United have spent.
United have been very good in the market and in production until now when they do need to break the bank. Time to follow city and Chelsea's.
Probably just tabloid talk but I also heard RVP was unhappy as when he signed Ferguson had said he would be there for 3 years or something like that before retiring after a year.

spiralism

beno619 wrote: »

Sure Ronney is our best player but what happened yesterday is not the answer.

Rooney clearly wasn't fit and was ineffective for most of the match. A match we ended up loosing. Similarly to RVP and the Newcastle game. RVP has now been out for how long ?

We have a worrying lack of ability to handle injuries to important players apparently. We've managed RVPs injuries extremely poorly all season and as you said, Rooney was clearly unfit yesterday.

Your Airbag

spiralism wrote: »

Suarez and Coutinho were nowhere near the finished article when they joined in all fairness. Suarez in particular was signed alongside a right cast of rabbits like Carroll and Downing for example and it was in a transfer window where they'd lost a crucial player (who turned out to flop of course but they weren't even strengthening at that point rather than replacing).

Whether or not Ozil apparently wanted to join is irrelevant, he's playing at the Emirates now. In fact it would be worse if that's the case as it would have been another botched move to file alongside Thiago, Fabregas :rolleyes:, Herrera, Coentrao and Baines (before you ever consider the considerable early season rumours that there was a huge transfer incoming last summer which was subsequently botched). Look at the players who refused us this summer meanwhile. People know a lemon when they see one.

We're not going to get players without european football and especially after being reduced to a fraction of our budget because of said lack of european football. Sure when Liverpool fans said similar things about players wanting to join them on their name a few years ago, many of us laughed.

Suarez was a top prospect. Ozil wasn't botched, we didn't want him.

You talk about the players who turned us down in the summer. We were talking about whether UTD who be able to sign players after a bad season but if all those players turned us down before our season started and after we just won the league than something else must be at play. The lure of La Liga and the rich owner clubs which I mentioned.

Fergie struggled with this. Hazard and Moura going elsewhere for the money. Lots of big clubs lose out on players during different periods. Madrid and Barca are the lure right now. Madrid can spend almost 90m on Bale.

Its not the lure of UTD that we have to worry about, on that we are fine. We are one of the biggest names in world football.

PhlegmyMoses

Bridge93 wrote: »

Did Ozil not choose Arsenal over Utd or did I hear that wrong?
Keane also made his name at Utd, he was not a tier one signing at the time, nor 18 year old Rooney. Utd don't have a huge history of signing big big names as the likes of the two above and Ronaldo etc developed into stars at the club which probably works out better for a club than spending huge money. Also the first 10 years of success were built on the class of '92 when there wasn't a need for loads of big signings as the club produced much of its talent. Don't think we'll see the likes of that again though.
For a team that has dominated for 20 odd years it's remarkable how little United have spent.
United have been very good in the market and in production until now when they do need to break the bank. Time to follow city and Chelsea's.
Probably just tabloid talk but I also heard RVP was unhappy as when he signed Ferguson had said he would be there for 3 years or something like that before retiring after a year.

Keane was a British record signing who was wanted by the two best and richest teams at the time.

Rooney was the most expensive teenager ever and the jewel in England's crown. They were both paying to a high standard when signed and paid massive premiums for them.

I do agree that we have tended to sign potential rather than finished articles but you can't take away from the big players that were signed for big money.

Maybe the club needs to break the bank again, if only from an image POV as well as getting a great player. We had no problem reaching the £30m mark when it was seen as a huge amount to pay but our transfer fees have kind of stagnated there since.

Adamcp898

Your Airbag wrote: »

Rooney, Rio, RVN, RVP, Cantona, Keane, Veron. Ozil wanted to join apparent.

Rooney and Rio could hardly have been considered some of the best in the world when we signed them, some of the brightest young talents with huge potential definitely but not established world class, much the same could be said of Keane, Cantona was causing problems where he was and I take it this is after Ozil turned us down in favour of Madrid?

Veron and RVP are the only two times we've successfully landed world class players and tbh it was probably partly due to a Barca, Real, Bayern etc. not being interested at the same time. We've been consistently passed over for bigger teams when we've went in for big players and this is only going to get more common with the loss of the draw of Ferguson, the rumours of discontent and dare I say the lack of CL football.

Your Airbag

Bridge93 wrote: »

Did Ozil not choose Arsenal over Utd or did I hear that wrong?
Keane also made his name at Utd, he was not a tier one signing at the time, nor 18 year old Rooney. Utd don't have a huge history of signing big big names as the likes of the two above and Ronaldo etc developed into stars at the club which probably works out better for a club than spending huge money. Also the first 10 years of success were built on the class of '92 when there wasn't a need for loads of big signings as the club produced much of its talent. Don't think we'll see the likes of that again though.
For a team that has dominated for 20 odd years it's remarkable how little United have spent.
United have been very good in the market and in production until now when they do need to break the bank. Time to follow city and Chelsea's.
Probably just tabloid talk but I also heard RVP was unhappy as when he signed Ferguson had said he would be there for 3 years or something like that before retiring after a year.

UTD always went for young to prospects and mixed them in with homegrown and big signings. Keane and Rooney were young but obviously talented players.

This was the UTD way which led to us spending less than other top clubs. It was a Fergie approach and he was amazing at it. IMO this approach is no longer going to work, the game has moved on and the market is now crazier than ever. Even though Fergie won us the league his approach started to be less effective over the last 3-4 years of his tenure.

We never learned from our first Barca lesson. Rinse and repeat for the second meeting with them. City spending big for the title and the class of 92 players not being properly replaced. The no value in the market line.

Players like Adnan can't be depended on. We got Scholes from our youth system in the past, recently we got Clev.

We will need to buy big and a clearout is needed because of the areas that have gone unaddressed.

Gringo180

Does anybody think Moyes had a gentleman's agreement with Kenwright that he wouldn't bid for Ross Barkley. Just seems very strange he went in for Fellaini instead of Barkley, who I think would of been a real gem for yous.

Your Airbag

Adamcp898 wrote: »

Rooney and Rio could hardly have been considered some of the best in the world when we signed them, some of the brightest young talents with huge potential definitely but not established world class, much the same could be said of Keane, Cantona was causing problems where he was and I take it this is after Ozil turned us down in favour of Madrid?

Veron and RVP are the only two times we've successfully landed world class players and tbh it was probably partly due to a Barca, Real, Bayern etc. not being interested at the same time. We've been consistently passed over for bigger teams when we've went in for big players and this is only going to get more common with the loss of the draw of Ferguson, the rumours of discontent and dare I say the lack of CL football.

Rio was the best defender in the country when we signed him. Andy Cole was also the best striker in the land when we got him. We have never been shy to go after good players

Our youth system produced some amazing players for us, we are not seeing the same level of talent come through.

Its a testimony to UTD that we were able to operate so well without spending as much as the other clubs but this was Fergies speciality. This may be an ethos now in place at the club and something that could be hurting us.

I don't think its fair to impose a strategy like this on the new manager. I don't think Jose or anyone else could have done it like Fergie did. Give Jose millions and you'll see results. Moyes needs the biggest checkbook in years because of the unaddresses areas let slip into mediocrity.

Just out of interest, how well could United handle missing out on Europe financially? What is it, £30million would be missed out on without CL football? Missing the EL too (highly unlikely I would've thought) would mean missing about 5 home matches and another £10million or so. The lower league position and all could mean about £50million less income next season, somewhat offset by increased PL income. I don't know what kind of position United are in financially to withstand that while needing to spend on new players.

Agueroooo

Deleted User wrote: »

Just out of interest, how well could United handle missing out on Europe financially? What is it, £30million would be missed out on without CL football? Missing the EL too (highly unlikely I would've thought) would mean missing about 5 home matches and another £10million or so. The lower league position and all could mean about £50million less income next season, somewhat offset by increased PL income. I don't know what kind of position United are in financially to withstand that while needing to spend on new players.

CL money is nearly Allie Teeny Trend from this year on if I remember correctly.

Mitch Connor

Deleted User wrote: »

Just out of interest, how well could United handle missing out on Europe financially? What is it, £30million would be missed out on without CL football? Missing the EL too (highly unlikely I would've thought) would mean missing about 5 home matches and another £10million or so. The lower league position and all could mean about £50million less income next season, somewhat offset by increased PL income. I don't know what kind of position United are in financially to withstand that while needing to spend on new players.

One season wouldn't be a financial disaster in itself - but if we were to miss out again the following season it would be a disaster I believe.

Delboy5

I think im right in saying that each of the top 4 clubs in the league at the minute have paid a bigger tranfer record fee than United......it really is time to spend some f**kin money !!!

rob316

As much as I would love it, United are not going to do a Liverpool, they are just too big commercially. The business side of the game has moved on since the Souness day's and for united they led the way while others fell behind.

If ye finish 6/7th Moyes should be sacked no question, to take a title winning team to 7th would be unbelievable. But Liverpool peaked under Benitez in 2009 by finishing runners up and then slumped to 7th the season after, the same thing could be happening here.

The key thing is investment, Liverpool went into further decline in 09 as our leech owners stripped the team instead of investing. Time for the glazers to put up or shut up.

homerjay2005

Your Airbag wrote: »

Its a testimony to UTD that we were able to operate so well without spending as much as the other clubs but this was Fergies speciality.

yes to an extent, but Ferguson did splash over £100million just before he retired and paid obscene money for some average players in the last 5 or 6 years and beyond this.

for even RVP there is a Bebe, a Bellion or a Djemba Djemba. for every youth player we brought through, we signed a Buttner or Tosic and so on.

Nani, Anderson, Young, Valencia who are 4 of the players getting so much stick at the moment, cost almost £70million.....add in Jones, Smalling, Carrick, DDG, Kagawa, and some more like Vidic, hernandez and Evra of the current squad and we are approaching another £100million on top of that.

and thats before we even talk about the other £80million+ that we spent on RVP, Rooney and Rio. the current squad cost about £275 +million and while it did give us good success, several players in it perhaps are not good enough for the club and we severely overpaid for them.

Backstreet Moyes

Gringo180 wrote: »

Does anybody think Moyes had a gentleman's agreement with Kenwright that he wouldn't bid for Ross Barkley. Just seems very strange he went in for Fellaini instead of Barkley, who I think would of been a real gem for yous.

No i don't because last season Fellaini was a better performer. He is still a better player and will prove his worth once he gets back from injury. Barkley while having potential has had a few good games but is way overhyped. He is not the biggest talent in England Ravel Morisson is and will be a better player if he keeps
his head down. Because he is playing for West Ham his performances aren't talked about as much as Barkley. Would love Morisson before Barkley but it would be a big risk. Barkley has potential but has an injury track record, has only a handful of big performances and would not be worth the money Everton want.

spiralism

Mitch Connor wrote: »

One season wouldn't be a financial disaster in itself - but if we were to miss out again the following season it would be a disaster I believe.

One season would have a snowball effect though. Glazers would slash the budgets for one thing if not go into full on asset stripping, on top of that we'd lose Rooney and be a shoe in to subsequently miss out again. Past few years have shown that once you fall out of the top four it's seriously difficult to get back in.

bullvine

Look at the team that played against Hull, it was only a combined transfer value of around 80m. Compare it to even the Liverpool team that played against City and their team cost around 30m more than United's. Add in to the fact a lot of United's current best 11 was bought pre 2007, it shows you that essentially the first 11 has not been improved for 6-7 years.

beno619

spiralism wrote: »

One season would have a snowball effect though. Glazers would slash the budgets for one thing if not go into full on asset stripping, on top of that we'd lose Rooney and be a shoe in to subsequently miss out again. Past few years have shown that once you fall out of the top four it's seriously difficult to get back in.

2014 will really highlight the Glazers motivations, its time to invest big and back Moyes before things get any worse.

tallaghtmick

I reckon boards would explode if Homer and Airbag agreed on something :pac:

Anyway I'd love to see a new LB and CM come in, I still think Fellaini will come good, Kagawa will not make it at utd and should be used as bait for another player.

Oregano_State

spiralism wrote: »

One season would have a snowball effect though. Glazers would slash the budgets for one thing if not go into full on asset stripping, on top of that we'd lose Rooney and be a shoe in to subsequently miss out again. Past few years have shown that once you fall out of the top four it's seriously difficult to get back in.

Chelsea were out for a season or two and went straight back in.

I would imagine that if we didn't make top four the Glazers would have the sense to reinvest heavily in order to guarantee it the following season. The champions league is where the money is at.