Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14 Mod warning post #718

jesus_thats_gre

gosplan wrote: »

Meh, tear each other apart all you want.

The truth is everyone's a bit correct.

Fergie overachieved with this team, Moyes is underachieving.

But this is not a typical Man U team. Go back 4 years and it's Rooney, Tevez, Ronaldo, Berbatov, Carrick, Scholes.

The current team doesn't nearly compare to that but it's not Fergie's fault, it's the Glazers. It's clear at this stage that RVP aside, they don't sanction deals for established players but rather young promising ones with resale potential. The fact that you're not breaking British transfer records for players like Rooney and Ferdinand while also plying top dollar for players like Tevez and Berbatov is what's hurting the quality. I think the Glazers just saw the Ronaldo deal and said 'let's try do that more often'.

This subpar Utd team threw away a league title 2 years ago. They added goals and won at a canter last year but no one was together enough to put in a decent challenge and Fergie got the absolute max.

Ultimately the team needs serious investment but if you think that's down to Fergie or Moyes, you're wrong.

Excellent post.

Liam O

Gringo180 wrote: »

Utds team of say 6 years ago would piss all over this team.

That's because United's team of about 6 years ago had the best player in the world in it along with Rio and Vidic at their peak. Now with Rio and Vidic injured more often than not and the amount of rotation at the back nobody can develop a partnership. The talent in the team bar Ronaldo is actually very similar, they are just playing at a level far below their potential.

GSPfan

RobertKK wrote: »

That was poor indeed, I don't know why anyone would pay to attend a sporting event and not at least wait till it was over, with only one goal there was always a chance.

When you are extremely annoyed you tend to want to distance yourself from the cause.

Ed The Equalizer

Gringo180 wrote: »

Just compare the great Utd Premier League teams to todays, years back yous had world class players littered all over the pitch and on the bench, Stam, Neville, Van der Sar, Beckham, Ronaldo, Scholes, Giggs, Van Nistelrooy, Yorke, Keane, Sheringham etc look at the players now, Valencia, Nani, Fabio, Welbeck, Young, Cleverly, Anderson, Buttner, Smalling, Evans etc.

Stop blaming Moyes and just realise yous arent the force of old.

Fergie said the 2013 squad was as good as any he had during his time. Of course Scholes is missing this year and perhaps we're forgetting the impact that had the last time he retired...

Montroseee

Liam O wrote: »

Lol, name all the top players in a 20 year period and compare it to today. Vidic, Rooney and RVP would get into every team in the world. Kagawa, Nani, Carrick, Rafael, Evans, Jones and Smalling would get into pretty much every squad in the world. It's motivation rather than talent that is holding this team back at the moment. The tactics are basically the same as Fergie's and that is something that has to change as that relied on players bailing the team out rather than outplaying other teams.

Vidic this season would not start in the top clubs starting eleven. Kagawa and Nani are playing piss poor and have been for ages. I think people should forget about these two players ever having an impact at UTD. again, your just basing that opinion of Kagawa's Dortmund days and Nani of 2011.

LiamoSail

As has been repeated numerous times, I think one of the biggest mistakes Moyes has made has been in replacing the coaching team.

A coaching team with a big influence on the players left, replaced by Moyes's coaches, as well as Neville & Giggs

Both Neville and Giggs would have been seen by the players as peers. The difficulty in moving from such a position to one of authority in any industry is difficult. Add to that the obvious stature of those they're replacing, as well as neither, and I don't mean this in a derogatory sense, coming across as having brains to burn and I'd question whether having these two as part of a coaching team replacing the one they did, with absolutely no experience, was wise

beno619

Montroseee wrote: »

Vidic this season would not start in the top clubs starting eleven. Kagawa and Nani are playing piss poor and have been for ages. I think people should forget about these two players ever having an impact at UTD. again, your just basing that opinion of Kagawa's Dortmund days and Nani of 2011.

Why cant Nani return to that form as long as he gets over his fitness problems ?

Kagawa was very usefull last season, theres no reason he cant return to his Dortmund form, it wont happen on the left wing, might not even happen at United but both top players.

Gringo180

Liam O wrote: »

That's because United's team of about 6 years ago had the best player in the world in it along with Rio and Vidic at their peak. Now with Rio and Vidic injured more often than not and the amount of rotation at the back nobody can develop a partnership. The talent in the team bar Ronaldo is actually very similar, they are just playing at a level far below their potential.

The likes of Cleverly, Carrick, Fellaini, Valencia, Kagawa, Anderson would not get near the same midfield when it was Scholes, Butt, Keane, Beckham, Giggs. The point im making is that Utd just arent the force of old.

kryogen

Montroseee wrote: »

Vidic this season would not start in the top clubs starting eleven. Kagawa and Nani are playing piss poor and have been for ages. I think people should forget about these two players ever having an impact at UTD. again, your just basing that opinion of Kagawa's Dortmund days and Nani of 2011.

Nani has been playing lately has he? Thats news to me anyway

You are right though of course, any player that is playing below par right now should probably just be wrote off as a lost cause, not a hope any of them will ever make a positive contribution again, no impact whatsoever I bet.

Thats what all the successful teams do

Its why Arsenal discarded Ramsey when it became clear he was never gonna have an impact

Either you play brilliantly (even when not in the squad cause your injured) or you get the **** out of the club.

100% agree

Mitch Connor

the squad needs major investment - that we wasted the summer only bringing in one player is,and was, a major failure of Moyes and Woodward and a reluctance to do something in January will be a further indictment of their competence.

Will we get, for example, Fabregas and Vidal now? No - very unlikely. Will we get them in the summer - No - very unlikely. So should we check down and go for a lower level of target that would still be way above what we currently put out. YES. Instead of Vidal, maybe go for Fernando.

United have back Moyes NOW, and Moyes needs to bring in some players NOW.

Major overhaul and investment is needed - and I do not argue that it should be done now - but we could bring in two players now and then the other four or so needed in the summer. In fact, leaving all purchases to the summer would be stupid and present its own problems. Based on last summers laughable crap, can you imagine Woodward and Moyes trying to get six or so deals done in the summer, with the world cup on...

Blatter

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

Excellent post.

It's not really. United are estimated to have the 2nd highest wage bill in the league behind City. That's a far more relevant thing to look at rather than looking at the amount of times they broke the British transfer record when you're questioning the Glazers.

kryogen

Gringo180 wrote: »

The likes of Cleverly, Carrick, Fellaini, Valencia, Kagawa, Anderson would not get near the same midfield when it was Scholes, Butt, Keane, Beckham, Giggs. The point im making is that Utd just arent the force of old.

Would they give Djemba-Djemba, Miller, Kleberson a go do you think?

This squad has not been out of the top two in a long, long time. this current crop has 3 league titles in the last 4 and only came second in that on the last day, with a late goal to lose it on goal difference. Get a grip of yourself, all of the other teams int he league have not been absolutely **** for 5 years now allowing such a bad team to have such success. Or maybe you do believe that.

This squad is not the 7th best in the league. This squad is riddled with injury for a start which hasnt helped, there are numerous reasons for the league form that I have no wish to get into with you right now, its been done on this thread a fair bit.

Francie Barrett

Liam O wrote: »

Kagawa in the Arsenal, Chelsea or City team would be twice the player he is at United. Similar enough to Silva, Ozil, Mata etc. Just because the current United team is devoid of all movement and fluidity and he's thrown out on the wing where he's miles away from anyone. He thrives on short passing and movement and the team as it's set up now just seem allergic to each other and try to stay as far away from each other as possible it seems.

Even when he was in Ferguson's team which should have suited him, at times he looked lost. I don't think he is being helped by being shunted out wide, but I also think he has been over hyped and quite frankly I don't think he would be getting near the Chelsea/City/Arsenal team.

Gringo180

kryogen wrote: »

Would they give Djemba-Djemba, Miller, Kleberson a go do you think?

This squad has not been out of the top two in a long, long time. this current crop has 3 league titles in the last 4 and only came second in that on the last day, with a late goal to lose it on goal difference. Get a grip of yourself, all of the other teams int he league have not been absolutely **** for 5 years now allowing such a bad team to have such success. Or maybe you do believe that.

This squad is not the 7th best in the league. This squad is riddled with injury for a start which hasnt helped, there are numerous reasons for the league form that I have no wish to get into with you right now, its been done on this thread a fair bit.

Fergie was a freak. No other manager could of acomplished what he did with such an average squad.

Montroseee

kryogen wrote: »

Nani has been playing lately has he? Thats news to me anyway

You are right though of course, any player that is playing below par right now should probably just be wrote off as a lost cause, not a hope any of them will ever make a positive contribution again, no impact whatsoever I bet.

Thats what all the successful teams do

Its why Arsenal discarded Ramsey when it became clear he was never gonna have an impact

Either you play brilliantly (even when not in the squad cause your injured) or you get the **** out of the club.

100% agree

Ramsey had youth on his side, only very recently turned 23 . He had still been putting in decent performances also until he took it up a notch this season. Nani is 27 now, when exactly is it that he has last played consistently well? I know he has been injured but Fergie's frustration with him was also clear. We should not stick with players that have been out of form for years at this stage. Why should anyone have any confidence in Nani returning to form, there has been nothing to suggest it.

kryogen

Francie Barrett wrote: »

Even when he was in Ferguson's team which should have suited him, at times he looked lost. I don't think he is being helped by being shunted out wide, but I also think he has been over hyped and quite frankly I don't think he would be getting near the Chelsea/City/Arsenal team.

Why would Fergies team have suited him better? It clearly shouldnt have, same type of football and system.

I would disagree he has been overhyped, he is a super player.

jesus_thats_gre

Blatter wrote: »

It's not really. United are estimated to have the 2nd highest wage bill in the league behind City. That's a far more relevant thing to look at rather than looking at the amount of times they broke the British transfer record when you're questioning the Glazers.

I am aware of the wider correlation between wages and success but it isn't absolute.

It could be the players fault, it could be Moyes' fault, it could be AF's fault or it could be the owners fault. It might even be a combination of all three.

No matter which way you look at it though, that United squad is short on talent in key positions, has fewer top class players than pretty much any period over the last 20 years and there seems to be an over dependency on players in their 30's.

Those problems take more than 6 months to become a reality.

As a Liverpool fan, I am obviously enjoying watching this from the outside (especially Liverpool fans defending Moyes in an identical way to how United fans defended Hodgson) but my posts are a genuine attempt at an impartial view.

kryogen

Gringo180 wrote: »

Fergie was a freak. No other manager could of acomplished what he did with such an average squad.

Pretty lazy analysis.

Blatter

Liam O wrote: »

Lol, name all the top players in a 20 year period and compare it to today. Vidic, Rooney and RVP would get into every team in the world. Kagawa, Nani, Carrick, Rafael, Evans, Jones and Smalling would get into pretty much every squad in the world. It's motivation rather than talent that is holding this team back at the moment. The tactics are basically the same as Fergie's and that is something that has to change as that relied on players bailing the team out rather than outplaying other teams.

It's been outlined plenty, with significant differences in meaningful stats, that the tactics are actually very different.

Francie Barrett

kryogen wrote: »

This squad is not the 7th best in the league. This squad is riddled with injury for a start which hasnt helped, there are numerous reasons for the league form that I have no wish to get into with you right now, its been done on this thread a fair bit.

I think it's been a perfect storm of bad luck for United to be honest. The injuries to key players, the lack of serious investment in the team, the time needed for Moyes to try and put his stamp on the team, etc.

With Van Persie, Rooney, Carrick and another new player brought in during the January window, I really think United will turn their form around.

LiamoSail

SlickRic wrote: »

. He (moyes) wasn't really qualified to take the job in the first place after all, and if he's showing little since, then he deserves all the pressure in the world.

Rodgers wasn't qualified for the Liverpool job.

This really annoys me.

In what way can a manager be qualified, if neither Moyes or Rodgers were for their respective jobs?

Both have their badges, began at lower levels, and through their work, got themselves into positions at premier league clubs, midtable in Rodgers case, top 6/7 in Moyes, where they landed bigger jobs.

If an excellent performance as manager of a club 6/7 positions further down the league isn't adequate experience to qualify a manager for a bigger job, then what is? This isn't Spain or Italy, managers tend not to move from one top 4 club to another, so united were never going to appoint a manager from another top English club.

For any manager to get a shot at a top club, someone has had to take a chance somewhere along the line and promote. Was Mourinho qualified for the Porto job? Wenger for the Arsenal job? Pep for the Barca job? Does a top 4 manager always have to come from abroad?

Moyes May or may not work out for united. Yes there are others probably better qualified for the job, obviously Mourinho being the stand out candidate, but to suggest Moyes wasn't qualified, after the excellent job he did at everton for so long, is nonsense IMO. He's worked his way up and earned his chance, and it's only right that the top jobs in England are open to those who have proved themselves in the league form the bottom up

Francie Barrett

kryogen wrote: »

Why would Fergies team have suited him better? It clearly shouldnt have, same type of football and system.

I would disagree he has been overhyped, he is a super player.

United were the best team in the league in Fergie's last year and they played some fantastic counter attacking football.

Gringo180

kryogen wrote: »

Pretty lazy analysis.

Im on my phone so I cant really engage and go into more depth. All I am trying to say is for a club like Manchester Utd, one of the biggest and richest in the world yous have a very average squad, compare your squad to Bayern or Madrid for example. This is where a club of your stature should be aiming for.

kryogen

Francie Barrett wrote: »

United were the best team in the league in Fergie's last year and they played some fantastic counter attacking football.

RVP bailed the team out so many times last season it wasnt funny.

sawfish

kryogen wrote: »

This squad has not been out of the top two in a long, long time. this current crop has 3 league titles in the last 4 and only came second in that on the last day, with a late goal to lose it on goal difference.

2010-Chelsea
2011-UTD
2012-City
2013-Utd

That's two league titles in four not three...still not bad:)

And five out of seven if you count the last seven

sawfish

kryogen wrote: »

RVP bailed the team out so many times last season it wasnt funny.

Bit like Rooney did in 2011 and Ronaldo did in his 40 odd goal season?

kryogen

sawfish wrote: »

2010-Chelsea
2011-UTD
2012-City
2013-Utd

That's two league titles in four not three...still not bad:)

And five out of seven if you count the last seven

Apologies, brain fart, the crux of my point was that the squad hasnt been out of the top 2 in 8 years so is clearly not average.

kryogen

sawfish wrote: »

Bit like Rooney did in 2011 and Ronaldo did in his 40 odd goal season?

Na wouldnt agree with that really, particularly the Ronaldo one, we were quite reliant on him his last season but we were playing some very good ball in that period.

Blatter

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

I am aware of the wider correlation between wages and success but it isn't absolute.

It could be the players fault, it could be Moyes' fault, it could be AF's fault or it could be the owners fault. It might even be a combination of all three.

No matter which way you look at it though, that United squad is short on talent in key positions, has fewer top class players than pretty much any period over the last 20 years and there seems to be an over dependency on players in their 30's.

Those problems take more than 6 months to become a reality.

As a Liverpool fan, I am obviously enjoying watching this from the outside (especially Liverpool fans defending Moyes in an identical way to how United fans defended Hodgson) but my posts are a genuine attempt at an impartial view.

I agree that it's not quite absolute but that wasn't really my point. It just shows that the Glazers have put enough money into wages for Utd to be an elite club. They've also given a reasonable amount of money for transfers and there's never been a slight indication from either Ferguson or Moyes that they've withheld essential funds. I think the days of seriously questioning and pointing the fingers at the Glazers are gone. How little they're mentioned these days with regards the struggles of the team speaks volumes IMO. Of course you can always say that Utd should have had more money to spend over the years due to the amount taken out to service the Glazer's debts and you'd be right, but that's a different argument. The fact is, in the here and now, Utd are being financially backed enough to be competitive.

Devil08

'Your job now, is to stick by our new manager'

SAF

GSPfan

At least we can't get knocked out of the League Cup on Tuesday. Although if we don't bring a 2 goal lead to Old Trafford it may not be enough.

I'm actually delighted there is a World Cup on this Summer. Cause last Summer was torture. At least it will focus our attention on something else other than the transfer market for a few weeks.

Lord TSC

Devil08 wrote: »

'Your job now, is to stick by our new manager'

SAF

Serious question, but when Fergie said that, do you think even he thought it would be this bad?

SantryRed

I've been beating this drum for a while, but if Moyes wants to succeed at United, he needs to develop a mentality in his tactics that United are a team that should be putting nearly everyone to the sword. Hanging on for wins and going defensive with 20 mins to go is not something an established top 4 side, and especially Manchester United, should be doing.

Will I Amnt

mitosis wrote: »

Really? What part of it don't you agree with?

It's a totally simplistic way of looking at things. Does the same go for Liverpool? Did they just have a freak 20 years in the 70's and 80's?

How you can type that out and think it rings true is beyond me. Are you saying every other United manager in the future can not go on and dominate the league for any amount of time because that was just an anomaly?
Even if they buy up the best players and management?
Can Pelligrini's Manchester City not go on to dominate the league for any amount of time because they're not traditionally a title challenging team?


What you're saying is nonsense IMO.

GSPfan

Devil08 wrote: »

'Your job now, is to stick by our new manager'

SAF

Well i'm resigning from that job. It pays nothing and makes me sad.

irishfeen

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Serious question, but when Fergie said that, do you think even he thought it would be this bad?

Probably not but I can guarantee you his message has not and will not change.

Liam O

Blatter wrote: »

It's been outlined plenty, with significant differences in meaningful stats, that the tactics are actually very different.

I don't see much difference honestly other than the bypassing of midfield to a higher degree. The same problems are there, I think any difference in the stats is more down the tactics being less successful this season than last.

tallaghtmick

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Serious question, but when Fergie said that, do you think even he thought it would be this bad?

Not a hope! I thought we would finish 2nd with a good challenge, now.....5th with a whimper.

Lord TSC

irishfeen wrote: »

Probably not but I can guarantee you his message has not and will not change.

Honestly, I don't think that matters as much as some people will want it to.

Headshot

Any chance we can take down that ****ing chosen one banner. It infuriates me when I see it

SlickRic

Devil08 wrote: »

'Your job now, is to stick by our new manager'

SAF

must you do everything Fergie says?

he's not your mother, boss, or (I assume) God.

Devil08

When SAF said that, he knew there would be tough times ahead. He wouldn't have asked us to stick by him if he thought it would be plain sailing and a walk in the park for Moyes.
I'm not even that sickened by recent results. I half expected a very tough season from the start.
What sickens me more is the attitude of a lot of the fans who have shat on the values of the club and want Moyes out already.
Lots of clubs have united in the name, but when someone says he support united everyone knows which united they mean.
Have a think about what that word UNITED means. I know what it means to me

The_Kew_Tour

Headshot wrote: »

Any chance we can take down that ****ing chosen one banner. It infuriates me when I see it

+1

kryogen

Who gives a **** what Fergie said about sticking by the new manager

You shouldnt need to have someone tell you to stick by your manager, you should do that anyway without having to be told. At least for one full season ffs.

LiamoSail

Headshot wrote: »

Any chance we can take down that ****ing chosen one banner. It infuriates me when I see it

The cheek of those match goers showing support for a manager that the average internet bampot gave up on long ago

onemorechance

Headshot wrote: »

Any chance we can take down that ****ing chosen one banner. It infuriates me when I see it

irishfeen

SlickRic wrote: »

must you do everything Fergie says?

he's not your mother, boss, or (I assume) God.

Close on it for the 22 years of my life :pac:

kryogen

Headshot wrote: »

Any chance we can take down that ****ing chosen one banner. It infuriates me when I see it

I will come lend a hand if anyone wants?

Stupid ****ing banner, always was

Lord TSC

Devil08 wrote: »

Have a think about what that word UNITED means. I know what it means to me

Your right. Far better we stick our heads in the sand and pretend everything will come good if we believe...

kryogen

LiamoSail wrote: »

The cheek of those match goers showing support for a manager that the average internet bampot gave up on long ago

Support him all you want

The Chosen One has been cringey ****e since the first day it was put up

Match goers are well capable of making stupid banners you know