Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14 Mod warning post #718

Maximus Alexander

Red Crow wrote: »

I think we all accept that he won't be sacked unless he completely bombs this season but it doesn't mean he shouldn't be sacked. I'm all for giving the guy time but progress needs to be shown.

I'm not commenting on whether or not he should be sacked, I'm very much on the fence. I'm just saying it won't happen, short of United getting relegated.

I'd be leaning slightly towards giving him more time myself, but I do find it alarming that we are not seeing progress or some sort of vision for the club forming.

wadacrack

With all the wingers playing so badly.I just wonder why Zaha( who we bought for 16m) is not getting a run.Seems that Moyes does not fancy him at all.When Bebe first arrived he got more chances than Zaha

kstand

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

I'd be stunned if Moyes didn't get until next January at least. So much so that I don't think there's even any point in talking about him being shown the door. It's not going to happen.

The saddening thing about it is that you are right. Plenty of clueless lazy arm-chair pundits will say "look how long they gave fergie" etc and roll out all the normal clap-trap. This isnt the mid 80s and clubs can go into decline very quickly. No top drawer player in his right mind will join United this window - and failure to secure 4th will mean no one will come in summer either. Moys had to get players in in the summer and between himself and that muppet Woodward, they completely and utterly failed. And now we reap the rewards.

Will I Amnt

mike65 wrote: »

It could be the club will have to become a bit more resourceful from here on.

The club has been resourceful for too long.

rob316

I know united are huge but down to brass tax, do ye really have the money to compete with the massive debts on the club? I just can not fathom how a club the size of Man United have let there midfield go into such decline that pub player like Cleverly starts. There not many teams in the league with a worse midfield than united's

Now that Ferguson is gone and the trophies have dried up is the world really going to see how much debt the Glazers have put on the club and in turn seriously effect the ability to invest in players?

I don't rate Moyes but the squad he has been left with is not good enough.

ericzeking

kstand wrote: »

The saddening thing about it is that you are right. Plenty of clueless lazy arm-chair pundits will say "look how long they gave fergie" etc and roll out all the normal clap-trap. This isnt the mid 80s and clubs can go into decline very quickly. No top drawer player in his right mind will join United this window - and failure to secure 4th will mean no one will come in summer either. Moys had to get players in in the summer and between himself and that muppet Woodward, they completely and utterly failed. And now we reap the rewards.

I'd nearly say the ones who thought it would all go oh so swimmingly, getting their weekly fix of instant gratification were the clueless ones.

You'll be hard pressed to find a poster who wants to give him 4 years straight off the bat but alot are willing to acknowledge that 6 months and one transfer window is a bit on the sharp side.

Agueroooo

rob316 wrote: »

I know united are huge but down to brass tax, do ye really have the money to compete with the massive debts on the club? I just can not fathom how a club the size of Man United have let there midfield go into such decline that pub player like Cleverly starts. There not many teams in the league with a worse midfield than united's

Now that Ferguson is gone and the trophies have dried up is the world really going to see how much debt the Glazers have put on the club and in turn seriously effect the ability to invest in players?

I don't rate Moyes but the squad he has been left with is not good enough.

one positive (if that is what you would call it) out of all of this will be over the next 12months or so, Utd supporters will have clarity on exactly where the club stands with regards to the owners, strategy, finances. etc

shadowcomplex

If united didnt make any signings in january but had all their players back from injury this is the team they should be playing week in week out

---

Dea Gea

---

Rafael

---

Vidic

---

Evans

---

Evra

---

Fellaini---Carrick---Flecther

---

---

Kagawa

---

---

Rooney

---

Rvp

---

LuckyLloyd

shadowcomplex wrote: »

If united didnt make any signings in january but had all their players back from injury this is the team they should be playing week in week out

---

Dea Gea

---

Rafael

---

Vidic

---

Evans

---

Evra

---

Fellaini---Carrick---Flecther

---

---

Kagawa

---

---

Rooney

---

Rvp

---

Couldn't see the lack of natural width suiting Moyesball myself

tallaghtmick

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Couldn't see the lack of natural width suiting Moyesball myself

Thats one of the problems, modern football has moved on from using wingers, unfortunately for us Moyes hasn't.

shadowcomplex

wadacrack wrote: »

With all the wingers playing so badly.I just wonder why Zaha( who we bought for 16m) is not getting a run.Seems that Moyes does not fancy him at all.When Bebe first arrived he got more chances than Zaha

because hes riding moyes daughter:)

JRant

rob316 wrote: »

I know united are huge but down to brass tax, do ye really have the money to compete with the massive debts on the club? I just can not fathom how a club the size of Man United have let there midfield go into such decline that pub player like Cleverly starts. There not many teams in the league with a worse midfield than united's

Now that Ferguson is gone and the trophies have dried up is the world really going to see how much debt the Glazers have put on the club and in turn seriously effect the ability to invest in players?

I don't rate Moyes but the squad he has been left with is not good enough.

Utd are being bled dry by the Glaziers. Considering the interest repayment alone is the price of a world class player every year and it's easy to see why we're in this mess.
Nearly £100 million from the Ronaldo deal just vanished.
The club has been posting huge profits every year but money has not been spent on the team.
Interest free loans to directors i.e the Glaziers to prop up their other businesses.

All the clubs above us in the league have spent more and bought better than we did in the summer. So it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone why we're struggling this season.

ScummyMan

shadowcomplex wrote: »

If united didnt make any signings in january but had all their players back from injury this is the team they should be playing week in week out

---

Dea Gea

---

Rafael

---

Vidic

---

Evans

---

Evra

---

Fellaini---Carrick---Flecther

---

---

Kagawa

---

---

Rooney

---

Rvp

---

Apart from Rooney, Januzaj has been our most dangerous player this season. Kagawa has been for the most part a steaming pile of sh!te. Don't see the reason for dropping Adnan for him

keane2097

tallaghtmick wrote: »

Thats one of the problems, modern football has moved on from using wingers, unfortunately for us Moyes hasn't.

It's crazy how much nonsense you read in this thread.

Did you ever see Everton play under Moyes? I would say he was amongst the first managers in the EPL to shift to wing backs providing the majority of the width in his teams.

shadowcomplex

JRant wrote: »

Utd are being bled dry by the Glaziers. Considering the interest repayment alone is the price of a world class player every year and it's easy to see why we're in this mess.
Nearly £100 million from the Ronaldo deal just vanished.
The club has been posting huge profits every year but money has not been spent on the team.
Interest free loans to directors i.e the Glaziers to prop up their other businesses.

All the clubs above us in the league have spent more and bought better than we did in the summer. So it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone why we're struggling this season.

Yes but if the glaziers have any fcuking clue at all they will realise this cant go on forever and if the quality of the team and results suffer then their earnings will too.

Agueroooo

JRant wrote: »

All the clubs above us in the league have spent more and bought better than we did in the summer. So it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone why we're struggling this season.

I am in no way defending the Glazers but the likes of City and Chelsea should be left out of any argument about who, and how, clubs are spending money on players/wages.

They simply cannot be matched by clubs that run a self sustaining business model.

kstand

ericzeking wrote: »

I'd nearly say the ones who thought it would all go oh so swimmingly, getting their weekly fix of instant gratification were the clueless ones.

You'll be hard pressed to find a poster who wants to give him 4 years straight off the bat but alot are willing to acknowledge that 6 months and one transfer window is a bit on the sharp side.

Personally I was disgusted he was brought in in the first place and it goes to show just how much power Ferguson wields at the coub - Keane was dead right in that interview before Christmas. Moyes had to hit the ground running - he had to bring 2 in 2 top drawer midfielders and then as the season went on look at other positions - but he utterly failed. He knew he had the job 4 months before the transfer window closed and yet what happened defied belief. I cant believe they are still singing his name and there's a flag with his face on it hanging in the Stret with "The Chosen One". He has done nothing to deserve it.
And as for the likes of Michael Owen etc coming out saying something then going "I'm sure Moyes is the right man for the job". What has Moyes ever done to make Michael Owen or anyone ofr that matter sure that he was right for a club as big as United?
I'm very disheartened, could se this coming as soon as he was appointed and I can only see us going one way and thats on a downward spiral.

bullvine

Have a think about this.

Since 2007, we've spent around 300m on players and realistically the only ones that's have definitely improved the first 11 are DeGea and RVP.

fatherted1969

Another disappointing result yesterday. It certainly won't be allowed go on much longer. Injury to key players have been a big problem coupled with Moyes reluctance to go for it until the team is losing isn't helping things. People saying that players won't want to go to utd at the moment need their head examined.

This is Manchester United your talking about. This will be turned around of that I'm absolutely certain, whether Moyes is steering it i'm not so sure now. I was all for giving him time but unless he can improve the results in the very short term i can see the Glaziers stepping in.

This value for money in the transfer market argument i keep hearing about does my tits in. The time for buying unproven potential is not now. World class players is what's needed not some young lad that might improve the team in a couple of years

While its not nice to see what's going on at the moment it was imo always going to happen at some stage such was the way fergie ignored the obvious faults in midfield. This squad of players is going to be overhauled now. Whether Moyes will do it i'm not as certain as i was a month ago.

Cantona's Collars

keane2097 wrote: »

It's crazy how much nonsense you read in this thread.

Did you ever see Everton play under Moyes? I would say he was amongst the first managers in the EPL to shift to wing backs providing the majority of the width in his teams.

Being hamstrung by a lack of quality in midfield has him hamstrung in his use of the players providing width.It'd be interesting comparing how many goals Everton scored under him from his midfielders compared to the 1 scored by United.
Look at the likes of Tim Cahill & even Osman who we joked about on here & their contribution goal wise compared to what's believed to be better players at United.Even Fellaini was highly effective in that role.How many times this season (and last) did we see our midfielders running into the box or even making themselves available in a scoring position.Rooney drops deep & our midfielders drop even deeper so we end up relying on Valencia for width as 90% of the time the ball is passed out to him and we know what the outcome there usually is.
Before we could win ugly,now we just lose ugly.

JRant

shadowcomplex wrote: »

Yes but if the glaziers have any fcuking clue at all they will realise this cant go on forever and if the quality of the team and results suffer then their earnings will too.

They have the option to sell whenever they want though. They have never put a single penny of their own money into the club, it's all profit for them. If they walked away tomorrow they will have made a vast amount of money from the club and that's before you factor in the sale price.

keane2097

zerks wrote: »

Being hamstrung by a lack of quality in midfield has him hamstrung in his use of the players providing width.It'd be interesting comparing how many goals Everton scored under him from his midfielders compared to the 1 scored by United.
Look at the likes of Tim Cahill & even Osman who we joked about on here & their contribution goal wise compared to what's believed to be better players at United.Even Fellaini was highly effective in that role.How many times this season (and last) did we see our midfielders running into the box or even making themselves available in a scoring position.Rooney drops deep & our midfielders drop even deeper so we end up relying on Valencia for width as 90% of the time the ball is passed out to him and we know what the outcome there usually is.
Before we could win ugly,now we just lose ugly.

The bolded bit is very obviously correct.

bucketybuck

Its nonsense to claim that the Glazers are to blame for the current state of the squad. They have provided the cash to spend, and its certainly not their fault that the cash was spent on the likes of Felliani, Young, Bebe or Valencia.

As another poster just said, they have given the manager €300m in the last 6 seasons. Hardly their fault that it was wasted.

JRant

Agueroooo wrote: »

I am in no way defending the Glazers but the likes of City and Chelsea should be left out of any argument about who, and how, clubs are spending money on players/wages.

They simply cannot be matched by clubs that run a self sustaining business model.

Of course but the other clubs above us earn a pittance compared to Utd's earning power.

Lord TSC

It also ignores reports the reports of 100m being available for Bale, 70m for Ronaldo, 40m for Khedira...

Blatter

Agueroooo wrote: »

one positive (if that is what you would call it) out of all of this will be over the next 12months or so, Utd supporters will have clarity on exactly where the club stands with regards to the owners, strategy, finances. etc

Agueroooo wrote: »

I am in no way defending the Glazers but the likes of City and Chelsea should be left out of any argument about who, and how, clubs are spending money on players/wages.

They simply cannot be matched by clubs that run a self sustaining business model.

United are estimated to have the 2nd highest wage bill in the league. A lot of sources claim that they offered huge money for Bale in the Summer and it's a well known fact that Moyes publicly courted Fabregas. They spent £27m on Fellaini, were offering ~£15m for Baines, considered shelling out huge wages for De Rossi, were likely willing to spend upwards of £20m on Herrera. Even the year before, it was well known that Fergie was interested in Hazard and Lucas Moura but just wouldn't agree to match what PSG paid for Lucas and had big issues with Hazard's agent fees.

So yes it's clear that substantial money is there and is being spent on wages (very important, often overlooked), you don't need to spend money like PSG and City to be successful. There will always be very good players around to build a great team for the money Utd are willing to spend.

Agueroooo

JRant wrote: »

Of course but the other clubs above us earn a pittance compared to Utd's earning power.

you cant talk about earnings and omit out-goings to service the debt (£70+mill p.a) which brings you a lot closer to the others that ' earn a pittance'

Oregano_State

One thing I've noticed a number of times from us in recent games is the CM giving the ball to the winger on the touchline, then the CM either retreats or moves towards the edge of the box, leaving the winger with at least one player to beat, but no out-ball . There is a giant hole in front of the opposition defence, but nobody moves to occupy it. The winger either has to beat his man and cross, or pass it back to the full back. I wish I could pull up stills of this, but I have noticed it a number of times in every one of our recent games.

Agueroooo

Blatter wrote: »

United are estimated to have the 2nd highest wage bill in the league. A lot of sources claim that they offered huge money for Bale in the Summer and it's a well known fact that Moyes publicly courted Fabregas. They spent £27m on Fellaini, were offering ~£15m for Baines, considered shelling out huge wages for De Rossi, were likely willing to spend upwards of £20m on Herrera. Even the year before, it was well known that Fergie was interested in Hazard and Lucas Moura but just wouldn't agree to match what PSG paid for Lucas and had big issues with Hazard's agent fees.

So yes it's clear that substantial money is there and is being spend on wages (very important, often overlooked), you don't need to spend money like PSG and City to be successful. There will always be very good players around to build a great team for the money Utd are willing to spend.

my point about clarity is that the above in bold about alleged monies available should become a lot more clearer, and not just here-say, over the medium term to get Utd back on track.

but my point still stands about trying to compete with the likes of City and Chelsea whilst still trying to turn a profit. no matter how big Utds (or others) revenue streams are imo cant compete.

(eg) Chelsea won the CL FFS and still ran £40mil+ in the red

niallo27

Is utd's not main problem is that they have no one to put the ball in the net, they were always dodgy in midfield and at the back but it didnt matter as they were scoring goals. Rooney is too deep and van persie's injury is huge. A fully fit van persie and utd will fly up the table so hopefully he will stay injured.

keane2097

Do people genuinely not think Fellaini is any good?

JRant

Agueroooo wrote: »

you cant talk about earnings and omit out-goings to service the debt (£70+mill p.a) which brings you a lot closer to the others that ' earn a pittance'

Which in turn brings us back to the Glazier problems.
They are not the sole reason for the mess we are in but as owners must take the lions share of the blame.

tallaghtmick

keane2097 wrote: »

It's crazy how much nonsense you read in this thread.

Did you ever see Everton play under Moyes? I would say he was amongst the first managers in the EPL to shift to wing backs providing the majority of the width in his teams.

Yet he's kept us doing it since September

Pieenar, Osman, Mirallas all wingers, Oviedo originally a winger, Coleman used as a right winger by Moyes...yup nonsense.

Cantona's Collars

Oregano_State wrote: »

One thing I've noticed a number of times from us in recent games is the CM giving the ball to the winger on the touchline, then the CM either retreats or moves towards the edge of the box, leaving the winger with at least one player to beat, but no out-ball . There is a giant hole in front of the opposition defence, but nobody moves to occupy it. The winger either has to beat his man and cross, or pass it back to the full back. I wish I could pull up stills of this, but I have noticed it a number of times in every one of our recent games.

It's called "not being very good at football",look at Fletcher who isn't exactly Zidane compared to Cleverly yesterday.Fletcher constantly made himself available and even when he passed the ball he constantly moved into space.Cleverly simply passes the ball then stops.
Even Carrick is guilty of this as he tends to just lay the ball off & retreat to his zone in front of the defence,watch how we play when he does venture forward-he adds a whole new dimension to our play but unfortunately it doesn't happen often enough.

JRant

Oregano_State wrote: »

One thing I've noticed a number of times from us in recent games is the CM giving the ball to the winger on the touchline, then the CM either retreats or moves towards the edge of the box, leaving the winger with at least one player to beat, but no out-ball . There is a giant hole in front of the opposition defence, but nobody moves to occupy it. The winger either has to beat his man and cross, or pass it back to the full back. I wish I could pull up stills of this, but I have noticed it a number of times in every one of our recent games.

Happens all across the pitch unfortunately. Players get the ball and every team mate scarpers away from him as quick as their legs will carry them.

Doesn't help having one of if not the worst midfield in the league.

Al Capwned

We absolutely need to finish 4th. To do that both the playing staff and management needs to improve. If that means breaking the bank to get players in this month, then that is what needs to happen.

I worry long term if we do not get 4th this year - to hell with this ****e of saying that a player is cup tied for the CL and we shouldn't go after him. 4th place is our target now, not the CL, cos there is no way in hell we're winning that. tbh Olympiacos worry me now...

Moyes has to take a huge amount of responsibility for the state we're in at the minute, but the players need to take their fair share of the blame also - there have been too many ****e performances from our better players, too many poor decisions from management, too many injuries to vital players (again), and too many mistakes made in the summer when we had a real chance to address the glaring issue that midfield is.

City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool, Tottenham and perhaps more are all better than us right now and are all on course to finish ahead of us if we don't cop on, and cop on now.

tallaghtmick

keane2097 wrote: »

Do people genuinely not think Fellaini is any good?

I do I was delighted we signed him but disappointed since, though injuries may have hampered him, am I right in saying he plays in a 3 man midfield for Belgium?

Blatter

Agueroooo wrote: »

my point about clarity is that the above in bold about alleged monies available should become a lot more clearer, and not just here-say, over the medium term to get Utd back on track.

but my point still stands about trying to compete with the likes of City and Chelsea whilst still trying to turn a profit. no matter how big Utds (or others) revenue streams are imo cant compete.

(eg) Chelsea won the CL FFS and still ran £40mil+ in the red

Most of those aren't really alledged moves though, most were confirmed by Fergie/Moyes but didn't happen because neither (generally) like to significantly overpay for a player.

The fact that the Glazers are financing the 2nd highest wage bill in the league should say it all tbh.

And btw it's wrong to state that self sustainable clubs can't compete, just look at Bayern and Dortmund in recent years. Yes Utd are still servicing some debt, but it's nowhere near what it was and the club's revenue has more than Allie Teeny Trend since the Glazers took over.

I honestly don't have any real legitimate fears over the current or immediate future with regards the finance side of things.

Cantona's Collars

Young: 42 attempted crosses, 9 successful - 21.4%
Valencia: 84 attempted crosses, 16 successful - 19.0%
Januzaj: 32 attempted crosses, 4 successful - 12.5%





From whoscored.

JRant

Blatter wrote: »

Most of those aren't really alledged moves though, most were confirmed by Fergie/Moyes but didn't happen because neither (generally) like to significantly overpay for a player.

The fact that the Glazers are financing the 2nd highest wage bill in the league should say it all tbh.

And btw it's wrong to state that self sustainable clubs can't compete, just look at Bayern and Dortmund in recent years. Yes Utd are still servicing some debt, but it's nowhere near what it was and the club's revenue has more than Allie Teeny Trend since the Glazers took over.

I honestly don't have any real legitimate fears over the current or immediate future with regards the finance side of things.

Bayern?
The same Bayern who play in a municipal stadium and bankrolled by the largest companies in Germany. Bayern are many things but a bastion for self sustainability they are not.

LiamoSail

Agueroooo wrote: »

I am in no way defending the Glazers but the likes of City and Chelsea should be left out of any argument about who, and how, clubs are spending money on players/wages.

They simply cannot be matched by clubs that run a self sustaining business model.

I don't think that's necessarily true.

In the last five seasons, Chelsea have spent on average, £38m a season more then united.

A quick google shows that since the Glaziers take over of united in 2005, they've spent £680m between interest fees and debt repayments. That's £680m taken out of the club to pay off the Glaziers investment.

Had that not been necessary, and that money instead been spent on the club, united would certainly have been capable of bettering Chelsea and at least matching city in terms of spending.

City & Chelsea may be freaks in terms of their spending, but equally united are In terms of their revenue. Without the Glaziers debt, they could most certainly compete with the spending of both, with out accumulating debt, should they have chosen to

bullvine

tallaghtmick wrote: »

I do I was delighted we signed him but disappointed since, though injuries may have hampered him, am I right in saying he plays in a 3 man midfield for Belgium?

He will come good, I am convinced of that.

United should have bought someone decent in Midfield and stop being obsessed by the absolute class of Fabregas or Modric. Could easily of got Arteta, Dembele, etc in recent years for around 15 million, would have been an proven upgrade on what we already had.

Red Crow

keane2097 wrote: »

Do people genuinely not think Fellaini is any good?

I think he's good but I'm not sure if he works at United. Obviously he should be given a chance to stake his claim for a place and I hope when he returns that he can add something to the side.

keane2097

tallaghtmick wrote: »

Yet he's kept us doing it since September

To me it's very obvious that he's focussing United's play to the wings because he sees it as the lesser of two evils compared to playing through the midfield with current players.

tallaghtmick wrote: »

Pieenar, Osman, Mirallas all wingers, Oviedo originally a winger, Coleman used as a right winger by Moyes...yup nonsense.

I'm not 100% sure what point you're trying to make with this list of players, but it highlights what I was talking about. Pienaar and Osman are completely central players who Moyes deployed on the wings. Mirallas is more like a winger I guess but is a player who cuts inside rather than going down the byline a lot as well. Coleman is a wingback who played in midfield while he was too green to be trusted at full back.

This is all evidence of a compact midfield with the width coming from Baines and Coleman. That's always how Everton set up.

tallaghtmick wrote: »

I do I was delighted we signed him but disappointed since, though injuries may have hampered him, am I right in saying he plays in a 3 man midfield for Belgium?

Yeah I think he's an excellent player, surprised at all the moaning about him.

keane2097

zerks wrote: »

Young: 42 attempted crosses, 9 successful - 21.4%
Valencia: 84 attempted crosses, 16 successful - 19.0%
Januzaj: 32 attempted crosses, 4 successful - 12.5%





From whoscored.

Are those stats unusual? What's the typical rate of successful crosses?

JRant

tallaghtmick wrote: »

I do I was delighted we signed him but disappointed since, though injuries may have hampered him, am I right in saying he plays in a 3 man midfield for Belgium?

Agreed, they made a mistake in not sending him for that operation as soon as possible. He would be coming back into the team around now if they had and we'll need every player we can get with the January schedule.

Rayne Wooney

The shape the squad is in isn't Moyes fault but he has to try and fix it now.

goodolegill

For the guys calling for Moyes to be given time even if he didn't make the Champion league spots.

Would your views change if it was Everton who took our once guaranteed spot?

fatherted1969

Just another thing to add, its hugely disappointing to see Moyes hasn't added to the squad already this window. Still spouting nonsense about value in market. Who cares what players cost, i know i don't. As it stands our central midfield is probably outside the top 6 or 7 in EPL. Can't believe only a couple of years ago we'd Keane, Scholes, Giggs, Beckham, Butt and Veron in midfield

JRant

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

The shape the squad is in isn't Moyes fault but he has to try and fix it now.

Absolutely and his track record of picking players in the transfer market is excellent. Unfortunately for him he's dealing with a very green chief exec and a huge debt hanging over the club. Time would seem to be against him at this stage.