Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14 Mod warning post #718

Rayne Wooney

Bringing up something from 6 years ago they'll all start saying we're living in the past...

keane2097

Link to Flah's rant about JT would be appreciated!

onemorechance

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Bringing up something from 6 years ago they'll all start saying we're living in the past...

Try not to give a f**k about what they say!

RGDATA!

kstand wrote: »

The new manager had to hit the ground running, had to have the correct pedigree, had to have an eye for signings that would strengthen what was there, innovative training regimes etc. He utterly failed in all respects and Ferguson in part must be apportioned some of the blame for that.

Out of curiousity, how has he 'utterly failed' at 'innovative training regimes'? Seems a weird thing to say unless you have inside info.

titan18

Tbf, imagine if Ferguson got his way and Rooney left the club. We'd be in a worse situation now

kstand

RGDATA! wrote: »

Out of curiousity, how has he 'utterly failed' at 'innovative training regimes'? Seems a weird thing to say unless you have inside info.

Players arent happy with the fitness regime he brought in and with the drills - hence RVPs injuries - a fitness specialist in Holland who worked with RVP in the past described Moyes fitness regime as "jurassic" after hearing what RVP has had to say.
The 27.5m signing of Feillaini (and no one else) is failure on so many levels. 7th in the league and out of the cup having lost 4 at home in a month to sides that hadnt won there in a very long time (Spurs aside) is another damning statistic. This is a squad that won the league remember with the third highest ever haul of points if memory serves me correctly.
Listen, we all know where the problems were - Moyes has managed in the league for 11 years, its not as if its new to him. He should have known where the problems were. So what subsequently happened in that trnasfer window was nothing short of a disgrace - he had 4 months to get players in and he decided he didnt want Strootman or Alcantra (a smoke screen). Yet he went and signed Feillaini.
This is not a club like Villa we are talking about, this is Manchester United and what has happened so far in his tenure - the 5-0 win away in Germany aside - counts as nothjng more than failure. Do you think he'd still have a job if he did this at Bayern, Barca or Real Madrid? Or even city? These are the clubs and sides we should be competing with and we are not.

adox

I really don't get all the Fellaini hate.

brinty

kstand wrote: »

Players arent happy with the fitness regime he brought in and with the drills - hence RVPs injuries - a fitness specialist in Holland who worked with RVP in the past described Moyes fitness regime as "jurassic" after hearing what RVP has had to say.
The 27.5m signing of Feillaini (and no one else) is failure on so many levels. 7th in the league and out of the cup having lost 4 at home in a month to sides that hadnt won there in a very long time (Spurs aside) is another damning statistic. This is a squad that won the league remember with the third highest ever haul of points if memory serves me correctly.
Listen, we all know where the problems were - Moyes has managed in the league for 11 years, its not as if its new to him. He should have known where the problems were. So what subsequently happened in that trnasfer window was nothing short of a disgrace - he had 4 months to get players in and he decided he didnt want Strootman or Alcantra (a smoke screen). Yet he went and signed Feillaini.
This is not a club like Villa we are talking about, this is Manchester United and what has happened so far in his tenure - the 5-0 win away in Germany aside - counts as nothjng more than failure. Do you think he'd still have a job if he did this at Bayern, Barca or Real Madrid? Or even city? These are the clubs and sides we should be competing with and we are not.

Well said Kstand very valid points and well made
You could also include the fact he got rid of all of the existing backroom and the vast knowledge they would've had of the existing squad and potential players to come through to bring in his Everton staff.
Whilst I'd not agree to sacking Moyes now (i never agreed with his appointment in the first place) he needs to be judged against the highest standards and decisions be made on those standards.

kstand

adox wrote: »

I really don't get all the Fellaini hate.

Its not hate. The guys is just not good enough and not a United player. Did a fine job at Everton and I'm sure in time he could do some bit part job for United if United needed a battering ram up front at Stoke or somewhere like that. But he was not worth 27.5m and at least one creative midfilder was required and we didnt get that, we got Feillaini.

TheDoc

adox wrote: »

I really don't get all the Fellaini hate.

Me neither tbh. Expectations are out of this world sometimes.

He has made a pretty big step up, playing whilst requiring an operation, then starts to suffer backpain and injury.

I think he is a good addition to the squad, and can be a strong player in our first 11, but jesus the boy needs time. It's a bonus when players hit the grounds running, not a given.

I always use the rule of thumb of six months for a new players to settle.

kstand

brinty wrote: »

Well said Kstand very valid points and well made
You could also include the fact he got rid of all of the existing backroom and the vast knowledge they would've had of the existing squad and potential players to come through to bring in his Everton staff.
Whilst I'd not agree to sacking Moyes now (i never agreed with his appointment in the first place) he needs to be judged against the highest standards and decisions be made on those standards.

There is no point sacking him now. Give him the season and then if nothing drastically improves, sound out the likes of Laudrup or Martinez who seem to have good scouting networks along with an emphasis on keeping possession and playing attacking football. If we dont make the CL, no one will want to sign for Moyes. But if he is removed and a new face brought in and plenty of money thrown their way, then the whole "rebuilding" factor can be played and it could entice a few top drawer players willing to give up CL football for one year.

magnumbud

kstand wrote: »

Its not hate. The guys is just not good enough and not a United player. Did a fine job at Everton and I'm sure in time he could do some bit part job for United if United needed a battering ram up front at Stoke or somewhere like that. But he was not worth 27.5m and at least one creative midfilder was required and we didnt get that, we got Feillaini.

hes barely played 10 games for the club give him time to actually settle before assuming he will never be good enough. he was one of the best Midfielders in the PL last season and is first choice for a great Belgium national team

keane2097

kstand wrote: »

Its not hate. The guys is just not good enough and not a United player. Did a fine job at Everton and I'm sure in time he could do some bit part job for United if United needed a battering ram up front at Stoke or somewhere like that. But he was not worth 27.5m and at least one creative midfilder was required and we didnt get that, we got Feillaini.

Add to the "hasn't a breeze" list.

2moreMinutes

Out of interest, did SAF also destroy Busby's legacy or was it just his own? I need to know so I can judge how angry and idiotic I should be in future posts.

brinty

adox wrote: »

I really don't get all the Fellaini hate.

Its not a hate of Fellaini ... he's a limited player who's a bit of a jack of all trades and master of none, who stood out in a mid level club because of his abilities. Those abilities are not of the standard to be a Manchester United quality player. The fact that non of our rivals were interested in him or challenged for his signatures tells me a lot..

The fact is if Moyes had wanted him from the start why did he not sign him on July 1st?? He knew there was a clause in his contract. He panic'd on the final day and he had to get someone in given all his boosts about our needs..

Can you imagine if we sign no one in this window and its a distinct possibility that in his first year at the club, Moyes will have signed only one player and that player was from his previous club..

RGDATA!

kstand wrote: »

Players arent happy with the fitness regime he brought in and with the drills

source? you may well be dead right, but i haven't seen a reliable report. on the contrary, RVP has come out and said he likes the training. (You might say, 'well, he would do,..' and you'd be right, but my point is who really knows?)

kstand wrote: »

- hence RVPs injuries - a fitness specialist in Holland who worked with RVP in the past described Moyes fitness regime as "jurassic" after hearing what RVP has had to say.

think most of us have seen those quotes. Made pre-season. Quotes which were based not from a close observation of the training in question, but on a quote Moyes made about "over-training" RVP to get him up to fitness. Vermalhen (sp?) may be right, but his criticisms seem to me based on very little evidence.

To say RVPs injuries are down to Moyes's training methods, when you have no idea how RVP was training last year compared to this, and when he's been notoriously injury prone most of his career, is a stretch at best.

Also you have to figure that the United coaching and medical staff are not going to throw their accumulated experience and knowledge out the window just because a few first team coaches have changed?
I just don't see enough evidence to use it as a stick to constantly beat Moyes with, certainly not to the point to declaim that he's "failed utterly" at training?

kstand wrote: »

The 27.5m signing of Feillaini (and no one else) is failure on so many levels.

I wasn't in favour of signing him in the first place but bit early to write him off, he's only had a few games and those around him didn't perform particularly well.

I'm not going to nit-pick anything else you said - I agree with most of it actually. But it does seem unfair when you see people leveling criticisms where they plainly can't know the facts, and I've noticed lots of people doing the same thing.

yabadabado

kstand wrote: »

Its not hate. The guys is just not good enough and not a United player. Did a fine job at Everton and I'm sure in time he could do some bit part job for United if United needed a battering ram up front at Stoke or somewhere like that. But he was not worth 27.5m and at least one creative midfilder was required and we didnt get that, we got Feillaini.

overpaid for him but he is more than a battering ram,not his fault we didn't also buy a creative MF. Between settling in ,injury and the overall performance of the team Fellaini hasn't got to show his potential but I hope he can.
If Fellaini can find his form he will be a good player for united and would have him and Carrick as first choice partnership.

kstand

magnumbud wrote: »

hes barely played 10 games for the club give him time to actually settle before assuming he will never be good enough. he was one of the best Midfielders in the PL last season and is first choice for a great Belgium national team

horse for courses.

The_Kew_Tour

adox wrote: »

I really don't get all the Fellaini hate.

I totally agree. HE has not even put foot in door really yet.

If he produces the Everton form we have got something.

kstand

keane2097 wrote: »

Add to the "hasn't a breeze" list.

speak for yuorself.

magnumbud

kstand wrote: »

horse for courses.

well thought out response :rolleyes:

kstand

yabadabado wrote: »

overpaid for him but he is more than a battering ram,not his fault we didn't also buy a creative MF. Between settling in ,injury and the overall performance of the team Fellaini hasn't got to show his potential but I hope he can.
If Fellaini can find his form he will be a good player for united and would have him and Carrick as first choice partnership.

I've seen all bar two of the games he has played in and he looks completely lost, out of place. He had a job at Everton and did it very well but this is not Everton.

magnumbud

kstand wrote: »

I've seen all bar two of the games he has played in and he looks completely lost, out of place. He had a job at Everton and did it very well but this is not Everton.

so you have seen him play 6 times for the club(with the whole team playing pants around him) and you can judge that he is just not good enough. i would love to have heard your thoughts on Vidic and Evra after boths first 6 games

RGDATA!

brinty wrote: »

You could also include the fact he got rid of all of the existing backroom and the vast knowledge they would've had of the existing squad and potential players to come through to bring in his Everton staff.

Unless I'm badly mistaken I'm pretty sure Moyes did not "get rid of all the existing backroom staff". I stand to be corrected maybe. If criticisms are to be made they should be fair and accurate at least, right?

v3ttel

Sorry, but I'm going to have to call bullsh*t on this.

In choosing Moyes was Fergie's last act, and in doing so destroyed the legacy of the club he created, according to this:

kstand wrote: »

No one is doubting what Alex Ferguson did for the club.
By possibly his last act was to destroy the legacy he created - and it seems it was he and he only who decided who should replace him, not the board.

But it's not Moyes or Fergies fault really:

kstand wrote: »

However Fergie and his successor Moyes dont deserve all the blame

It's the Glazers:

kstand wrote: »

There is a cancer running through the club that is soaking the blood from it and the strain is called Glazer.

If you believed that someone "destroyed the legacy of the club" (whatever that really means) it's pretty funny that most of your finger pointing is directed at someone else. Your post is incredibly incoherent. You don't know who to blame so you are spouting non-sense about every senior authority, pretty much.

kstand wrote: »

Players arent happy with the fitness regime he brought in and with the drills

Cool. Which ones have you talked to about this, or people who have access to Carrington, seeing as there are zero public sources to back this up?

kstand wrote: »

Moyes has managed in the league for 11 years, its not as if its new to him. He should have known where the problems were. So what subsequently happened in that trnasfer window was nothing short of a disgrace - he had 4 months to get players in and he decided he didnt want Strootman or Alcantra (a smoke screen).

He signed a CM. He attempted to sign an undoubted world class CM in Fabregas. He explicitly said "we are short in midfield". How is this not knowing where the problems were?

kstand wrote: »

The 27.5m signing of Feillaini (and no one else) is failure on so many levels.

Do you honestly believe Fellaini is a bad player? I'm finding this hard to believe that people could have such a low opinion of him after his success at Everton. To essentially write him off after a handful of poor performances is lunacy of the highest order.

I agree that waiting so late into the transfer window was a terrible idea and also over paying by 4 million. He should have been in before the season started when it became clear other targets were not available.

I would largely put the transfer failings at Ed Woodwards door.

kstand wrote: »

Do you think he'd still have a job if he did this at Bayern, Barca or Real Madrid? Or even city? These are the clubs and sides we should be competing with and we are not.

Possibly. Possibly not.

I would refer you to: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=88271972#post88271972 and this http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=88274453#post88274453 when your talking about making managerial changes and spouting on about ruining legacies.

Blatter

Fellaini producing Everton form = improvement to United's midfield from the last few years, I think most would agree.

But according to some, just because he hasn't improved it yet = he will never improve it.

It seems settling in periods and bad patches of form don't exist anymore. You learn something new everyday.

Kylo Ren

De Gea got the same hate.

Fellaini will improve and will subsequently improve our midfield. I guarantee it.

tallaghtmick

Arsenal where after Fellaini aswell.

Your Airbag

Adnans been hitting the gym

brinty

RGDATA! wrote: »

Unless I'm badly mistaken I'm pretty sure Moyes did not "get rid of all the existing backroom staff". I stand to be corrected maybe. If criticisms are to be made they should be fair and accurate at least, right?

Phelan, Rene, Eric Steele (who was credited with DDG's transformation)
Completely overhauled the scouting network and has big plans to change the academy structure...
Think thats a pretty fair and accurate assessment of the brains trust going out the door..
I'll grant you that Rene went to Anzhi but they could've tried to get him back as soon as he lost that posting..Moyes surrounded himself with his own men (as he was entitled to do) but you don't throw the bay out with the bathwater!!

CSF

magnumbud wrote: »

hes barely played 10 games for the club give him time to actually settle before assuming he will never be good enough. he was one of the best Midfielders in the PL last season and is first choice for a great Belgium national team

You know full well he was not one of the best midfielders in the PL last season. I'm fairly confident I could name 10 who were better.

sawfish

I don`t like the United Home Jersey this year. Can`t be helping matters :pac:

CSF

Keno wrote: »

De Gea got the same hate.

Fellaini will improve and will subsequently improve our midfield. I guarantee it.

De Gea's quality was obvious. Fellaini's is not.

onemorechance

CSF wrote: »

You know full well he was not one of the best midfielders in the PL last season. I'm fairly confident I could name 10 who were better.

So he would make your top 11? :pac:

Blatter

CSF wrote: »

You know full well he was not one of the best midfielders in the PL last season. I'm fairly confident I could name 10 who were better.

Agree on last season, purely because he mainly played off the striker as Everton badly needed his goal threat.

But in previous seasons I always felt he was one of the better CMs in the league.

Iused2likebusts

Fellani when one of the standout performers at everton, plays a totally different position to the one he has played at utd. I can't see him ever playing off the front man at utd. As a more traditional central midfielder I dont think he is ever going to do enough to get people too excited. He is just a slightly above average premier league midfielder.

yabadabado

kstand wrote: »

I've seen all bar two of the games he has played in and he looks completely lost, out of place. He had a job at Everton and did it very well but this is not Everton.

fair play to you if you are able to write off a player that has played less than 1000 mins of football for the club.Majority of players take a while to settle at a new club,add in his injury trouble and general ****e we are going through at the moment.
I think he will come good,if he preforms like did for Everton we have a good player and certainly better than most of the other CM's at the club .

Nearly every new player that joins get written off by a few people before they are ever given a chance at the club.

The_Kew_Tour

Blatter wrote: »

Fellaini producing Everton form = improvement to United's midfield from the last few years, I think most would agree.

But according to some, just because he hasn't improved it yet = he will never improve it.

It seems settling in periods and bad patches of form don't exist anymore. You learn something new everyday.

This is pretty much spot on.

Rayne Wooney

Your Airbag wrote: »

Adnans been hitting the gym

Good

Did Ronaldo world of good

magnumbud

CSF wrote: »

You know full well he was not one of the best midfielders in the PL last season. I'm fairly confident I could name 10 who were better.

12 goals and 7 assists last year i consider that fairly damn good. im not saying he was the overall best but was definitely up there in my opinion. caused us and a number of clubs major problems. for me easily in the top 10 last year

kstand

v3ttel wrote: »

Sorry, but I'm going to have to call bullsh*t on this.

In choosing Moyes was Fergie's last act, and in doing so destroyed the legacy of the club he created, according to this:



But it's not Moyes or Fergies fault really:


It's the Glazers:



If you believed that someone "destroyed the legacy of the club" (whatever that really means) it's pretty funny that most of your finger pointing is directed at someone else. Your post is incredibly incoherent. You don't know who to blame so you are spouting non-sense about every senior authority, pretty much.



Cool. Which ones have you talked to about this, or people who have access to Carrington, seeing as there are zero public sources to back this up?



He signed a CM. He attempted to sign an undoubted world class CM in Fabregas. He explicitly said "we are short in midfield". How is this not knowing where the problems were?



Do you honestly believe Fellaini is a bad player? I'm finding this hard to believe that people could have such a low opinion of him after his success at Everton. To essentially write him off after a handful of poor performances is lunacy of the highest order.

I agree that waiting so late into the transfer window was a terrible idea and also over paying by 4 million. He should have been in before the season started when it became clear other targets were not available.

I would largely put the transfer failings at Ed Woodwards door.



Possibly. Possibly not.

I would refer you to: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=88271972#post88271972 and this http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=88274453#post88274453 when your talking about making managerial changes and spouting on about ruining legacies.

We can disagree all you wnat. The Fabregass signing was all sh1t to get season tickets sold - he had no intention of leaving Barca. Only a fool would have been taken in by that one.
As for leaving the blame with Woodward regarding not making signings? Moyes knew 1 month before he took over he had the job - he then had a further 3 months to go and identify who he wanted yet everything got done on the last day and yet somewhow, thats Woodwards fault? I agree, Woodward was out of his depth but that would not have been apparent if they went and did business earlier in the summer.
I see there are a few on here at leats who rate Feillaini and think he will improve things? This isnt fvcking Bolton Wanderers.

As for the Glazers. Moyes and the current situation is the here and now. He was not the right man for the job in my opinion and results thus far have borne that out. But at the end of the day, until the Glazers have sold Man United and the club is run without debt, then its a house of cards and right now, bearing in mind interest payments onm the debt, a house of cards that could very easily collapse. yet so many seem oblivious to that.

n32

Fellaini always looked better playing in an advanced role. Everton fans I know say he never looked like a good dm but was effective when he was up as an auxilliary attacker

kstand

yabadabado wrote: »

fair play to you if you are able to write off a player that has played less than 1000 mins of football for the club.Majority of players take a while to settle at a new club,add in his injury trouble and general ****e we are going through at the moment.
I think he will come good,if he preforms like did for Everton we have a good player and certainly better than most of the other CM's at the club .

Nearly every new player that joins get written off by a few people before they are ever given a chance at the club.

OK. So give him a chance.
Where do you play him? Pick a team there and tell me what role he would fulfill.

keane2097

Is this stuff about De Gea having a transformation not just a new invention to batter David Moyes about Eric Steele?

If I recall, De Gea was an extremely young goalie in a new team, country and league who had a small bit of trouble adjusting in his first couple of months, and was then foolishly dropped/rotated with a far worse player before gradually settling in and showing how good he has always been.

This is the same Chris Woods who took a goalkeeper United (possibly not Steele, not sure) had made a balls of in Tim Howard, and turned him into a very solid performer.

As for the other two, you couldn't swing a cat in here over the last few years for someone mouthing off - without a shred of evidence mind you, but whatever - about what a **** assistant Mike Phelan was and how he was a yes man.

Meulensteen wasn't happy to have his role somewhat reduced by Moyes wanting to be hands on with players, was asked to stay and showed fairly dubious character getting into bed with the crooks at Anzhi instead.

#MOYESOUT

Francie Barrett

Blatter wrote: »

Fellaini producing Everton form = improvement to United's midfield from the last few years, I think most would agree.

But according to some, just because he hasn't improved it yet = he will never improve it.

It seems settling in periods and bad patches of form don't exist anymore. You learn something new everyday.

Not a United fan, but the way Fellaini has already been written off is just ridiculous. The guy has proven Premier League class and when he gets back to full fitness (he's had serious back and wrist injuries), he will be a very good player.

Blatter

n32 wrote: »

Fellaini always looked better playing in an advanced role. Everton fans I know say he never looked like a good dm but was effective when he was up as an auxilliary attacker

I'd have to disagree with them. Fellaini impressed me plenty of times in the deep midfield role. He'd been regularly mentioned in this thread and linked to plenty of top clubs for years on the back of his performances there.

kstand

Never understood why so many didnt get behind De Gea. He was slightly buld and needed gym work - but his shot stopping and distribution were fantastic. All he had to do was bulk up and work on crosses and he did that - he was always going to be a top drawer keeper and was a great signing by Fergie.

Kylo Ren

CSF wrote: »

De Gea's quality was obvious. Fellaini's is not.

What? De Gea was a 20 year old keeper who had been performing well for a La Liga team but had/has the potential to be the best in the world.

Fellaini was bought at 25 and is a seasoned international approaching 50 caps for a brilliant Belgium side and had nearly 150 caps for a very good premier league side.

To suggest Fellaini's quality is not obvious and De Gea's was is nonsense.

KH25

I think Moyes needs a good win tonight, for his own sake.

kstand

Keno wrote: »

What? De Gea was a 20 year old keeper who had been performing well for a La Liga team but had/has the potential to be the best in the world.

Fellaini was bought at 25 and is a seasoned international approaching 50 caps for a brilliant Belgium side and had nearly 150 caps for a very good premier league side.

To suggest Fellaini's quality is not obvious and De Gea's was is nonsense.

OK - put it this way.
Would De Gea get into any of the top sides in Europe? Would Feillaini? If Barcelona went and signed Feillaini last season what would people have said, seeing him in a midfield with say Xavi and Mascherano?