Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14 Mod warning post #718

kingshankly

Tonight was the first time I felt utd were totally unrecognisable from teams of old. I know the have lost some games but let's face it they were very unlucky again Newcastle Everton and spurs to a lesser extent. But tonight they looked absolute toothless and leaderless
Could possibly have the worst midfield in the premiership

Al Capwned

beno619 wrote: »

Cant remember Lloris having to make a save in the first half, It was a better performance in the Moyes era but far from good enough and miles away from battering them.

Spurs were happy to let us have the ball knowing that we would never break them down the way things are going.

He made a good stop from Smalling inside 5 minutes, and stuck the ball out for a corner with his arse.

newballsplease

Nothing personal against Cleverley, but i honestly believe that Utds lack of form is down to him.
A shocking player to have in the center of midfield.

J. Marston

Headshot wrote: »

Not worth mentioning tbh

That chelsea fella, I cant stand him. One of those typical awful chelsea fans

Jason Cundy, there's much worse than him on the station than him, in fairness. (Durham & Gough, Mickey Quinn, Mark Saggers etc.)

At least Andy Goldstein is a United fan, although a bit of tool.

Bridge93

sawfish wrote: »

Giggsy ready and waiting

People giving out Moyes doesn't know what he's doing, has awful tactics and hadn't done anything to earn being Utd coach having spent 10 years bringing Everton from near relegation to the cusp of the champions league. I'm not going to get into whether Moyes deserved/earned the chance at managing the biggest club around that's personal opinion. But then you suggest Giggs... A man who has never managed. Right ok.
Surely if Moyes isn't qualified Giggs is even less/not at all.

The_Kew_Tour

kingshankly wrote: »

Could possibly have the worst midfield in the premiership

Interesting that you mentioned that.

Dont think we have, but there is none that I could say we are miles ahead of either, but we are miles of top 5-6 in the PL.

If Fit and Everton Fellaini got back then we be much better.

GSPfan

newballsplease wrote: »

Nothing personal against Cleverley, but i honestly believe that Utds lack of form is down to him.
A shocking player to have in the center of midfield.

No that's definitely not right. There's a few players out there not performing. And it's the managers job to select players who are. So there's a lot of blame to go around.

Lord TSC

I just wish to wake up in the morning to find our "200m warchest" was used to pay off Moyes, pay off Dortmund to bring in Klopp, and Klopp brings a few Dortmund players with him. And Ronaldo. And Rachel Riley as the new Ass. Manager.

Al Capwned

No way you can put this on one player.

Al Capwned

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

I just wish to wake up in the morning to find our "200m warchest" was used to pay off Moyes, pay off Dortmund to bring in Klopp, and Klopp brings a few Dortmund players with him. And Ronaldo. And Rachel Riley as the new Ass. Manager.

Wouldn't mind being her Ass. Manager.:D

Your Airbag

newballsplease wrote: »

Nothing personal against Cleverley, but i honestly believe that Utds lack of form is down to him.
A shocking player to have in the center of midfield.

As much as I dislike him I don't think we can scapegoat him for our overall form. We have injuries to key players but in the middle we are shocking and these stats don't help Clev

Amongst a list of 46 occurrences of a player making over 100 passes in a Premier League game in the past five seasons, Scholes features four times. Meanwhile, the most passes Cleverley has ever completed in a top-flight game is 78. He's not even ambitious with his few passes; this season, of players with 15 or more appearances, only Ki Sung-Yueng and centre-back Laurent Koscielny have played a higher proportion of their passes sideways than Cleverley (61.4%).

Intelligent passing clearly isn't what he adds to the team; and nor are goals (one in his last 27 league appearances), assists (none in his last 21 games) or particularly impressive defensive contribution (80th in the Premier League for tackles + interceptions per game this season, with 3.8).

http://www.football365.com/f365-features/9105469/WhoScored365

ScummyMan

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

I just wish to wake up in the morning to find our "200m warchest" was used to pay off Moyes, pay off Dortmund to bring in Klopp, and Klopp brings a few Dortmund players with him. And Ronaldo. And Rachel Riley as the new Ass. Manager.

Ass Manager. Wouldn't mind that job myself

Al Capwned

Man.UnitedLad wrote: »

Ass Manager. Wouldn't mind that job myself

Get in line.

Bridge93

newballsplease wrote: »

Nothing personal against Cleverley, but i honestly believe that Utds lack of form is down to him.
A shocking player to have in the center of midfield.

So one player has managed to bring a team from champions at a canter to struggling in 7th? That just isn't right.
It also doesn't say much about the talent of others if one player was able to destroy a team so badly. Surely if the others were of a good enough level one poor player wouldn't affect a team so drastically?

beno619

Your Airbag wrote: »

As much as I dislike him I don't think we can scapegoat him for our overall form. We have injuries to key players but in the middle we are shocking and these stats don't help Clev



http://www.football365.com/f365-features/9105469/WhoScored365

It's not all Cleverleys fault but things will improve as soon as he is out off the side. Starting this weekend hopefully.

Your Airbag

Roma have signed midfeilder Radja Nainggolan on loan. Are they pjanicking that they might lose a MF player?

http://www.asroma.it/en/news/radja_nainggolan_corporate/

beno619

Your Airbag wrote: »

Roma have signed midfeilder Radja Nainggolan on loan. Are they pjanicking that they might lose a MF player?

http://www.asroma.it/en/news/radja_nainggolan_corporate/

No.Value.In.The.Market.

Headshot

With every game go by the resemblance between Moyes and Hodgson is staggering. I honestly don't know why some utd fans would say we will turn into a Chelsea if we fired Moyes now but why can't a club make a mistake. and just do the right thing in the end. It will go down to a man that is to stubborn to change his mind (deja vu) or for the good of the club.

Liam O

It's nothing like Cleverley's fault. The problem is the people around him. He is in a 20-30 yard sinkhole most of the time. Carrick is 10 yards behind him and the attackers are 20 yards ahead of him. There was nobody dropping deep to help out against the 3 Sunderland midfielders and that just meant they could crowd him out while the rest of the players and seemingly the fans expect him to turn 2 players and work himself into an advanced position to play people in. Put Xavi or Iniesta in the role he is being asked to play and they will look average imo, as it is Cleverly looks below average because he is being left out to dry.

GSPfan

Al Capwned wrote: »

Wouldn't mind being her Ass. Manager.:D

Nice. But keep your hands off her. I'm gonna swoop in now she's single again.

Al Capwned

beno619 wrote: »

No.Value.In.The.Market.

I wish people would stop using this as a means of attacking Moyes.
He never said it, Ferguson did. Years ago.

It's disappointing yes to see the way things are going, but people should really base their criticisms on fact.

Mikeyt086

As Your Airbag said above, Roma have signed Radja Nainggolan on loan with a view to buy, and already brought in Paredes from Boca, both are direct competition to Miralem Pjanic.

I think if we actually did make a bid like some places say, they will accept.

supersean1999

IMO our biggest problem, is players simply not performing, even though in most of the games utd have not won we have still had prob 9-10 internationals most weeks in the team,I accept the best players have been missing far to often for it not to effected our results, we are crying out for a new centre back, jones will be good enough, but I'm not convinced any 2 from jones , smalling, or Evans combined will ever be strong enough to win a league, start at the back with the rebuilding, Ferdinand is gone, vidic is prob 50-50 for another season at most, but we really need a world class center back ASAP, the amount of times we give the ball away is shocking from defence and some of the goals conceded all season can't be blamed on any coach, 1 center back, 1 left back, 2 center mids,4 new players needed Out with , evra and buttner, giggs, Ferdinand ,Valencia and if I had my way a few more would go, too, I hope to see Zaha get a good 5 months football on loan And get a run next year with Powell

Owen_S

Cabaye reportedly has a £22m price tag. What do people think? Would he be worth it, and could he solve any of the current problems?

beno619

Liam O wrote: »

It's nothing like Cleverley's fault. The problem is the people around him. He is in a 20-30 yard sinkhole most of the time. Carrick is 10 yards behind him and the attackers are 20 yards ahead of him. There was nobody dropping deep to help out against the 3 Sunderland midfielders and that just meant they could crowd him out while the rest of the players and seemingly the fans expect him to turn 2 players and work himself into an advanced position to play people in. Put Xavi or Iniesta in the role he is being asked to play and they will look average imo, as it is Cleverly looks below average because he is being left out to dry.

Xavi or Ineasta would transform our football, Fletcher has already made a huge difference.

Cleverley is poor in the most important position on the field.

Montroseee

Liam O wrote: »

It's nothing like Cleverley's fault. The problem is the people around him. He is in a 20-30 yard sinkhole most of the time. Carrick is 10 yards behind him and the attackers are 20 yards ahead of him. There was nobody dropping deep to help out against the 3 Sunderland midfielders and that just meant they could crowd him out while the rest of the players and seemingly the fans expect him to turn 2 players and work himself into an advanced position to play people in. Put Xavi or Iniesta in the role he is being asked to play and they will look average imo, as it is Cleverly looks below average because he is being left out to dry.

This post is absolute nonsense. He passes and shys away from the ball, sometimes I think he even moves into an awkward position after passing so he cannot receive it again. Literally the only thing he can do is pass sideways, he doesn't have any great tackling/defensive abilities, barely ever scores or assists and doesn't provide a link between the strikers and defenders. Saying someone like Xavi would look average is just LOL worthy. Im glad the manager doesn't think like you, I'd be fairly sure Cleverley's time at UTD. is up now or in the Summer.

Devil08

Cleverley had serious potential when he was coming up through the reserves. I remember fergie brought him on a couple of pre season tours and gave him a few first team games when he was younger. He always seemed to score and looked an attacking threat back then.
Looks a completely different player to what he was then. He doesn't seem to have any character or personality about him.

Maximus Alexander

I remember being fairly excited about Cleverley when he started making regular appearances early in the 11-12 season. How quickly things change.

Hank Scorpio

Liam O wrote: »

It's nothing like Cleverley's fault. The problem is the people around him. He is in a 20-30 yard sinkhole most of the time. Carrick is 10 yards behind him and the attackers are 20 yards ahead of him. There was nobody dropping deep to help out against the 3 Sunderland midfielders and that just meant they could crowd him out while the rest of the players and seemingly the fans expect him to turn 2 players and work himself into an advanced position to play people in. Put Xavi or Iniesta in the role he is being asked to play and they will look average imo, as it is Cleverly looks below average because he is being left out to dry.

Sorry but imo that is utter ****e and ignoring one of the forefront problems of the team at the minute. Cleverly receives the ball in CM and gives the most safe pass he can deliver every time. Even the balls he gives out to the wingers are to their feet and never in front of them so they can run and gain space on the opposition.

He doesn't carry the ball forward, like ever. He never plays balls over the top, its always sideways and along the ground. Once he passes it he runs forward, never into space to receive the ball but to areas where he can't receive the ball. Chamack used to do the exact same thing for Arsenal. Why? Because he's hiding from responsibility. He can't defend and he has zero goal threat. Hes a very limited player who runs alot and that's about it.

He lost the ball numerous times tonight and started throwing his hands in a strop instead of focusing on getting it back. Those were positions that he shouldn't have lost it. The guy is a fraud and is not up to any near the level Man United midfielders should be. Saying Iniesta or Xavi will look average is hilarious to me. Iniesta is capable of dribbling and bringing the ball forward, hes a goal threat and he always moves into space. Xavi has passing ranges similar to Scholes and great leadership qualities. Cleverley has none of these things, hes a one trick poney.

I hate reading stuff like the above defending some of these players, if the majority of fans and manager have the same reasoning we're gonna be stuck in mediocrity forever.

Rooneys talent and having to play cm or drop really deep to cover Cleverleys ass in games is a prime example of how poor he really is.

All in imo of course

Liam O

Montroseee wrote: »

This post is absolute nonsense. He passes and shys away from the ball, sometimes I think he even moves into an awkward position after passing so he cannot receive it again. Literally the only thing he can do is pass sideways, he doesn't have any great tackling/defensive abilities, barely ever scores or assists and doesn't provide a link between the strikers and defenders. Saying someone like Xavi would look average is just LOL worthy. Im glad the manager doesn't think like you, I'd be fairly sure Cleverley's time at UTD. is up now or in the Summer.

If he shys away from it so much then how come he gets on the ball more than any other United player? The witch hunt is on him as it's the position that the most obvious improvement can be made. He's not first 11 standard but he's good enough for the squad. The reason Xavi and Iniesta would look average is the same reason Kagawa looks bad in this team, because nobody supports each other and the space between them is too much for pass and move football. Cleverly passes sideways or back, runs forward and because there's no 3rd player there has to double back and thus finds himself in these awkward positions.

Red Crow

Liam O wrote: »

It's nothing like Cleverley's fault. The problem is the people around him. He is in a 20-30 yard sinkhole most of the time. Carrick is 10 yards behind him and the attackers are 20 yards ahead of him. There was nobody dropping deep to help out against the 3 Sunderland midfielders and that just meant they could crowd him out while the rest of the players and seemingly the fans expect him to turn 2 players and work himself into an advanced position to play people in. Put Xavi or Iniesta in the role he is being asked to play and they will look average imo, as it is Cleverly looks below average because he is being left out to dry.

Are you serious? Cleverley is as average as it gets. He's not good enough to be a United player and I see little value in him at all. Cleverley also has the worst off the ball movement of any Manchester United midfielder I've ever seen.

supersean1999

Devil08 wrote: »

Cleverley had serious potential when he was coming up through the reserves. I remember fergie brought him on a couple of pre season tours and gave him a few first team games when he was younger. He always seemed to score and looked an attacking threat back then.
Looks a completely different player to what he was then. He doesn't seem to have any character or personality about him.

Tom cleverley Would Not get in a good Few Teams 24 Man squads and im Not sure he Would improve West ham or sunderlands first team. He is Well out of his depth as a utd starter

Chagan

The only sliver of hope for Cleverley is that there was once a time Carrick was slated for only passing sideways and backwards too.

kryogen

I think if we actually bid on some players instead of monitor or prepare bids things might start to happen, until then of course we are just floundering in the transfer market.

This may be it in terms of the squad for the season, I still say we will bring in at least one in the window, but if we dont I dont care if Moyes starts playing Academy players, we need players on the pitch with some fight in them, something to prove cause a few are strolling through games like they have nothing left to play for. If thats how they feel then they can **** off and sit on the bench. When your in a dogfight you dont need weak character on the field.

They dont have to be the most talented players either, they just have to work hard, both in defence and attack, not attacking, then losing the ball and throwing up the arms or strolling back instead of busting a gut to make up for his mistake. Individual errors have cost the team big time this season. Either they get stamped out or the players in question take a break, the squad hasnt become awful suddenly, it is stretched thin with injuries and seems devoid of self belief.

He has got to find a way to make them believe in themselves again, I said if we didnt get an early goal tonight we could be in trouble, the team needs something to go for it, a bit of luck from somewhere, doesnt matter what at this stage, just needs something to go right for them and get the ball rolling. This starts with hard work.

Bridge93

He is poor and things should improve were he to drop out but I find it hard to believe he is as bad as some are making out. A few managers of top teams (Utd, England) have continued to pick him.
Although they aren't great either he has played 13 times in 2 years for England in CM which is a reasonable achievement when you look at the other mids around.
Having said that he is playing awfully atm.

TheDoc

I agree with some points in recent pages, it looks like certain elements just arn't performing or playing for the manager. They know the flack he is taking, and they arnt going the extra mile to help him out.

I felt there would be a catalyst that will kick all this in motion, and I have a feeling it will shortly, when someone is sold. Could even be a relatively big name. I'd imagine it will happen in the summer, but might even happening January.

Moyes needs to make a big statement to the players that he is the boss, and that what has happened in unacceptable.

Nalz

kryogen wrote: »

Why would you say Phelan hasnt been snapped up to be manager or at least assistant manager somewhere yet?

What difference does that make? Doesn't matter if the people who slated him at the time turned out to be right (and not for one second am I saying they are) there was no real proof or honest explanation to why he constantly got dogged out of it.

We could go down the route of naming managers and assistants that did Good jobs at clubs and then either disappeared or failed in their next position...should that have any bearing on what they did previously? Look at our current man in charges predicament compared to his days at Preston or Everton.

kryogen

Liam O wrote: »

If he shys away from it so much then how come he gets on the ball more than any other United player? The witch hunt is on him as it's the position that the most obvious improvement can be made. He's not first 11 standard but he's good enough for the squad. The reason Xavi and Iniesta would look average is the same reason Kagawa looks bad in this team, because nobody supports each other and the space between them is too much for pass and move football. Cleverly passes sideways or back, runs forward and because there's no 3rd player there has to double back and thus finds himself in these awkward positions.

Is it really that hard to see?

He gets the ball so much because he is always close to his centre backs or standing in the centre circle more or less. He isnt a DM yet that is the position he is in most of the time, how often does he take the ball, or show for the ball in the final third? In an advanced position even!

When he does get it in an advanced position you can be damn sure the ball goes back or to the side then, he gave it to Carrick on one occasion tonight when the better option was to slide it through the centre of the defence, or failing that out to the wing so the attack could continue. He played it back, losing the impetus of the situation, as usual.

He does hide, he gets on the ball in his own half, or in the centre of the park, he does not look for it or have any influence in the opposition part of the field. A typical Cleverley scenario includes picking up the ball from the centre back, jogging a bit, gives it to the other centre back, demands it back, gets it, gives it to Carrick, gets it back, gives it to the right back, looks for it again, gives it to the centre back, gets it again, gives it to the other centre back, he hits a long ball cause he is fed up of Cleverley. Bit sensationlised yes, but thats it in a nut shell.

There is no bravery there, the ball very rarely goes forward or further then 10 yards away from him, he is happy to take it when not under pressure but shys away from responsibility too much when the ball is in a dangerous area.

beno619

Chagan wrote: »

The only sliver of hope for Cleverley is that there was once a time Carrick was slated for only passing sideways and backwards too.

Carrick had ability though. Tom's just not good enough, sad but true, we all want the academy grads to do well but he just doesn't have it.

Rubber_Soul

The abuse Cleverley is getting on here tonight is ridiculous. Yes he was dire tonight but he's just played 8 games in 23 days because of injuries, he's wrecked.

No he's not a world beater and shouldn't be a regular starter but he's a good squad player to have.

Backstreet Moyes

Chagan wrote: »

The only sliver of hope for Cleverley is that there was once a time Carrick was slated for only passing sideways and backwards too.

People who watched football knew this was nonsense. We signed him for his performances further up the field than he plays now. Fergie moulded him into a player who kept things simple and covered the back four which suited him even more. Carrick has more talent in his baby toe than Cleverley has.

Hank Scorpio

StarshipPooper wrote: »

The abuse Cleverley is getting on here tonight is ridiculous. Yes he was dire tonight but he's just played 8 games in 23 days because of injuries, he's wrecked.

No he's not a world beater and shouldn't be a regular starter but he's a good squad player to have.

It doesn't take stamina to show for a ball in an advanced position. He's been the same in all those games, hes a coward

Hank Scorpio

double post.

Won't rant about him anymore but I'm sick to my stomach watching him play at this stage

kryogen

Trilla wrote: »

What difference does that make? Doesn't matter if the people who slated him at the time turned out to be right (and not for one second am I saying they are) there was no real proof or honest explanation to why he constantly got dogged out of it.

We could go down the route of naming managers and assistants that did Good jobs at clubs and then either disappeared or failed in their next position...should that have any bearing on what they did previously? Look at our current man in charges predicament compared to his days at Preston or Everton.

It was a simple question with no hidden agenda.

You dont wanna answer it thats fine too. From watching some of Uniteds training it is pretty clear that RM had the biggest control over training methods and game planning, particularly offensively.

Phelan never seemed to have much input in that department, he did have a bigger say in tactics from what I know, but that was more Fergie bouncing an idea off him, whether he agreed or not didnt seem to matter, he has said something similar himself, in that he said he advised Fergie to do this or not to do that, or he felt something was a mistake but Fergie was the boss at the end of the day so it was his call.

I agree with you there was no real proof either way, all people can do is go by what they see and other then being Fergies sounding board and someone Fergie felt was a great guy to have as his buffer between the players and himself, while letting RM handle most of the tactical and training, I didnt see much from him.

This comes from training sessions I saw, session my family saw etc, its not out of pure guesswork but I dont have much concrete to go with either.

As I said, my question was just that, a question, not a leading one, I wasnt asking to jump on the answer, just to know why you thought he hadnt found work since, particularly considering his impressive CV.

beno619

Bridge93 wrote: »

He is poor and things should improve were he to drop out but I find it hard to believe he is as bad as some are making out. A few managers of top teams (Utd, England) have continued to pick him.
Although they aren't great either he has played 13 times in 2 years for England in CM which is a reasonable achievement when you look at the other mids around.
Having said that he is playing awfully atm.

He played well once, then got subbed off at half time in his next appearance.

If he goes to the world cup it will be because of sentiment not performance or ability.

His England career is already over imo , Jermain Jenas had a lot of Endland caps as well and played for some good sides also a better footballer than Cleverley.

Montroseee

StarshipPooper wrote: »

The abuse Cleverley is getting on here tonight is ridiculous. Yes he was dire tonight but he's just played 8 games in 23 days because of injuries, he's wrecked.

No he's not a world beater and shouldn't be a regular starter but he's a good squad player to have.

I think anyone with a decent knowledge of football and players out there can agree this is not true. Watch the uproar if he goes to Brazil.

Backstreet Moyes

Liam O wrote: »

If he shys away from it so much then how come he gets on the ball more than any other United player? The witch hunt is on him as it's the position that the most obvious improvement can be made. He's not first 11 standard but he's good enough for the squad. The reason Xavi and Iniesta would look average is the same reason Kagawa looks bad in this team, because nobody supports each other and the space between them is too much for pass and move football. Cleverly passes sideways or back, runs forward and because there's no 3rd player there has to double back and thus finds himself in these awkward positions.

How about just watch what he does. He drops deeper inside his own half to recieve the ball from a cb doesn't look around just lays it back and runs off where he can't get the ball further up the field. All this does is make our cb hoof it forward and he is deeper than he should be and unable to help create going forward. He actually takes himself out of attacks by doing this and he is awful at defending. Reminds me of myself playing ball years ago running away not looking for the ball it's pathetic.

kryogen

StarshipPooper wrote: »

The abuse Cleverley is getting on here tonight is ridiculous. Yes he was dire tonight but he's just played 8 games in 23 days because of injuries, he's wrecked.

No he's not a world beater and shouldn't be a regular starter but he's a good squad player to have.

I agree with every bit of this post, but it doesnt change my opinion on him as a player.

He should be tired, he has had a big work load, he is a good squad player to have, every successful team needs players like him.

He should not be first choice obviously, but I dont want to see him sold.

Good back up and rotation option, not up to standard for a starter and doesnt display any of the traits that make me think he will be in future

On a related note, I havent been over awed by Januzaj this season, I see many flaws in his game, but look at the traits he does display, no fear, a willingness and a demand to get on the ball in advanced positions and to try to make things happen, to take shots on, to take players on, a desire to succeed and get stuck in. These lead me to believe he will be a fantastic player in the coming seasons.

Your Airbag

One other stat sticks out in those stats about Clev I posted earlier

Amongst a list of 46 occurrences of a player making over 100 passes in a Premier League game in the past five seasons, Scholes features four times. Meanwhile, the most passes Cleverley has ever completed in a top-flight game is 78. He's not even ambitious with his few passes; this season, of players with 15 or more appearances, only Ki Sung-Yueng and centre-back Laurent Koscielny have played a higher proportion of their passes sideways than Cleverley (61.4%).

Fergie had Scholes for 21 games last season and an on form Carrick. Moyes does not. That coupled with RVP, Rooney and our other injuries leads me to believe Fergie would have struggled had he had to cope with those circumstances this season. I'm not saying we'd be in the same position but we would not be top of the league or on course to retain it imo.

If January decends into clubs f*cking us around and it looks like we won't be able to get a MF player in then the call for Scholes to come back becomes less outlandish. Sure we would get stick for it and the word desperate would be thrown around but would we care? In his first match back after retirement no.1 he came on against City in the FA cup and completed more passes than the entire City team iirc

Yes Moyes is part of all this but we can't deny how poor some of our players have been any longer. Performacne, ability and effort wise. Some of them aren't fit to wear the jersey right now.

The_Kew_Tour

Darren Gibson came in for lot more abuse but he could least get few assists, goals and could pass a ball from time to time.

Cleverley is only small problem as to where we are, but a problem nevertheless, that needs to be addressed.

Valencia needs to be dropped just as quick though. How he is starting game after game is a complete and utter joke.

Zaha deserves a chance. In fairness Young was actually showing some form too recently.

Valencia has been biggest disappointment over past 18 months. By a mile.