Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14 Mod warning post #718

Bridge93

beno619 wrote: »

He played well once, then got subbed off at half time in his next appearance.

If he goes to the world cup it will be because of sentiment not performance or ability.

His England career is already over imo , Jermain Jenas had a lot of Endland caps as well and played for some good sides also a better footballer than Cleverley.

It's all personal opinions I suppose.
But do you honestly believe anyone will be going to a World Cup for sentimental reasons? Especially when the manager has no obvious ties (previous coach elsewhere, relation etc).
And again it's opinions so I won't argue over it but you can't say someone's international career is over at 24 when he's played recently in helping England qualify. 24 is still young.
But I agree he has been more than poor recently and shouldn't be in the England squad on recent form. If he goes it won't be sentimental hodgson will have his reasons.

kryogen

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Darren Gibson came in for lot more abuse but he could least get few assists, goals and could pass a ball from time to time.

Cleverley is only small problem as to where we are, but a problem nevertheless, that needs to be addressed.

Valencia needs to be dropped just as quick though. How he is starting game after game is a complete and utter joke.

Zaha deserves a chance. In fairness Young was actually showing some form too recently.

Valencia has been biggest disappointment over past 18 months. By a mile.

This, its like he has compromising photos of Moyes or something, and Fergie previously too it must be said. No idea how he is undroppable, utter ****e.

Gringo180

Feel sorry for Moyes I really do. This squad of players just doesn't look hungry enough to me. You have got to remember that the season before last they lost the league on the last day of the season so last season they were really up for the fight to put things right and win it back.

Your Airbag

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Darren Gibson came in for lot more abuse but he could least get few assists, goals and could pass a ball from time to time.

Not to mention developing the close control skills of a bloddy Zidane/Messi/Ronaldinho hybrid as soon as he fecked off.

Liam O

Nuts102 wrote: »

How about just watch what he does. He drops deeper inside his own half to recieve the ball from a cb doesn't look around just lays it back and runs off where he can't get the ball further up the field. All this does is make our cb hoof it forward and he is deeper than he should be and unable to help create going forward. He actually takes himself out of attacks by doing this and he is awful at defending. Reminds me of myself playing ball years ago running away not looking for the ball it's pathetic.

But surely this should be Carrick's job to receive the ball from the center backs? Cleverley is just abandoned in the no mans land between midfield and attack with 3 midfielders from the other team. I'm not saying he's United first team standard but to blame him for what's happening is madness imo. It's pure tactical anarchy at the moment and I'm not going to judge anyone who isn't getting a fair crack of the whip because of it. It's different to Valencia and Evra who are put in positions to make a difference and don't. Cleverley is being asked to do the job of 2 players at least and is failing spectacularly.

beno619

Bridge93 wrote: »

It's all personal opinions I suppose.
But do you honestly believe anyone will be going to a World Cup for sentimental reasons? Especially when the manager has no obvious ties (previous coach elsewhere, relation etc).
And again it's opinions so I won't argue over it but you can't say someone's international career is over at 24 when he's played recently in helping England qualify. 24 is still young.
But I agree he has been more than poor recently and shouldn't be in the England squad on recent form. If he goes it won't be sentimental hodgson will have his reasons.

Roy said as much that he will take the players that helped him qualify.
I really can't see him ignoring Barkley ect Livermore and Huddleston will also get a chance in friendlys imo.

Backstreet Moyes

Liam O wrote: »

But surely this should be Carrick's job to receive the ball from the center backs? Cleverley is just abandoned in the no mans land between midfield and attack with 3 midfielders from the other team. I'm not saying he's United first team standard but to blame him for what's happening is madness imo. It's pure tactical anarchy at the moment and I'm not going to judge anyone who isn't getting a fair crack of the whip because of it. It's different to Valencia and Evra who are put in positions to make a difference and don't. Cleverley is being asked to do the job of 2 players at least and is failing spectacularly.

I would have no problem if he was dropping deep and actually doing something. He drops deep inside his own half recieves the ball and just passes it straight back to a defender. In the mean time the defender has less time because an attacker has more time to close him down. What are his options now Cleverley has taken himself out of the game and he has less options than before Cleverley came near him. If he took the ball turned and went forward or moved the ball forward i would be glad with him dropping deep. Him dropping deep takes himself out of the game and gives defenders less options for going forward. I will not lay blame on one player but he is seriously a big problem unless he starts actually doing something with ball.

RobertKK

Hopefully players like Antoine Griezmann (winger who scores lots of goals, given Reus is a pipe dream), Miralem Pjanić and a left back are signed this month.

wonderfullife

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

We need to buy players.

We need to get rid of the dead wood.

Some of us have been crying about this for past 3 years.

FFS if this is not wake up call we deserve to be relegated.

Amazing how it was so obvious yet it didn't stop Moyes butchering the transfer window in the summer. For the record i'm not a believer in the Woodward-bashing. David Moyes is not a rookie manager. This isn't a Giggs type appointment who has to get to grips with how transfers work.

And the wake up calls have been happening for months!! I think you need a new alarm clock!!

Kerrydude1981 wrote: »

Moyes interview on SSN now

Embarrassing.

It's all the refs fault?!

That's the type of excuse you expect from Ian Holloway, Neil Warnock and the rest when they get an unlucky defeat away at a big club.

Not Manchester United away to Sunderland in a vital fixture (yes, vital, because this is pretty much the only chance of a trophy this year).

Headshot wrote: »

whats the excuse this time?

All the refs fault ^^

kryogen wrote: »

What do you expect him to say

He said they didnt do a lot wrong, they arent far aware and are getting there, he can sense it.

Not like he is coming out going, we are playing great stuff, everything is rosy!

He also cant come out and say the players are cat, wont do them much good.

I'm sorry but he's been saying the exact same tripe for 7-8 weeks.

Things improving. Slowly getting there. Need a bit of luck.

No - things are not slowly improving.

Things are going from bad to worse to "Hodgson-Liverpool-territory".

I suppose if wee Gordon gets a nice club offer, the Scotland post might come up. Might be able to save some face personally if he has that gig to walk into.

In terms of United, the mistakes were as follows in 2013:

1. Fergies farewell speech.

The man has earned the right to say whatever he wants at OT. He can get a microphone and say he believes in aliens if he wants. But his speech hasn't half hamstrung the owners and, to an extent, the fans.

When he spoke of his tough times at the club there was no sense of context about it. He neglected to mention when he strolled into the club United were literally in the relegation zone that year (albeit after a handful of games). He forgot to mention he had a squad full of boozers who'd been down the pub the night before games. He forgot to mention he had a long famine of success at the club when he took over.

The idea that a new manager should be given time to endure similar tough times is a complete fallacy and nonsense. An estate agent doesn't sell a pristine apartment in need of slight interior renovation and take the blame when he returns to find they've butchered it.

The problem now is everyone has Fergies words ringing around their ears and it unfairly puts the owners in a tough spot now. For all they have got wrong over the years, the Glazers should quite rightly be looking at Moyes position. If they sack him soon (which lets be fair, every top 6 club barring Arsenal would be doing) they'll get it in the neck.

2. Appointing Moyes.

No point elaborating.

3. Getting rid of backroom staff. Schoolboy stuff not to keep continuity.

4. Transfer Window.

Made all the worse by the fact he had plenty of notice he was going to OT, plenty of time to pick, assess, watch targets and get names in.

Made even worse by an embarrassing pursuit of a Belgian who was a big fish in a small pond at Everton. Incidentally that small pond is expanding and that big fish wouldn't be walking into that side anymore either.


Of course, a bigger mistake would be a stubborn insistence Moyes can turn this around. He can't. He won't.

What i find utterly hilarious is this: When the league was won last season, Fergie got all the praise. Especially as he retired. "Genius, no other manager could have done it with these players"

So the manager gets all the praise last year but now these same players are getting a lot of stick?

Blaming the players is complete rubbish! The buck at every football club stops with the manager!!! It's actually his job to get the most out of his players!! If he's not doing that, it's not the players fault it's his.

People keep (rightly) bashing Cleverley, Valencia etc but these lads under Fergie showed they can aid in a title winning cause.

It's a new excuse each week from fans and the same old excuse each week from Moyes. All the while the problem is crystal clear. David Moyes. The solution might not be so simple but getting rid of the problem is.

kryogen

Im not gonna get into a big to and fro here cause that post is just too long and Ill be hitting the hay soon, but say we sack Moyes tomorrow morning, who do you put in charge till the end of the season?

Please dont answer Fergie (unrealistic) or Giggs as that is just ridiculous beyond a normal level of stupid.

Genuinely, think and tell me who we should have in place instead of Moyes? Who provides a better option until the end of the season at least?

The_Kew_Tour

kryogen wrote: »

Im not gonna get into a big to and fro here cause that post is just too long and Ill be hitting the hay soon, but say we sack Moyes tomorrow morning, who do you put in charge till the end of the season?

This is one big reason Moyes aint getting sacked. Nobody wants to come now. All the big names are gone.

The_Kew_Tour

wonderfullife wrote: »

Amazing how it was so obvious yet it didn't stop Moyes butchering the transfer window in the summer. For the record i'm not a believer in the Woodward-bashing. David Moyes is not a rookie manager. This isn't a Giggs type appointment who has to get to grips with how transfers work.

And the wake up calls have been happening for months!! I think you need a new alarm clock!!

I think you need to read back what I said again there!!

wonderfullife

kryogen wrote: »

Im not gonna get into a big to and fro here cause that post is just too long and Ill be hitting the hay soon, but say we sack Moyes tomorrow morning, who do you put in charge till the end of the season?

Please dont answer Fergie (unrealistic) or Giggs as that is just ridiculous beyond a normal level of stupid.

Genuinely, think and tell me who we should have in place instead of Moyes? Who provides a better option until the end of the season at least?

I'd probably get Mike Phelan back on a short term contract until the summer as caretaker.

Anybody to take the helm for 6 months so they can get the right man. And by right man i don't necessarily mean a big name manager (which would be nice) but i'd sooner give Laudrup, Pochettino, etc a chance than Moyes.

If you're going to go for an unproven club manager who has done well at a smaller club (like Moyes) at least go for a young manager who has had some success (Martinez, Laudrup etc won at least 1 trophy) or someone who has demonstrably shown the ability to get smaller teams playing amazing football (Liverpool took that risk on Rodgers - looks like paying off, Everton on Martinez).

Big name manager would be ideal. Almost a pre-requisite. But i'd sooner have Laudrup or Pochettino in on a 2 year deal than give the likes of Moyes - a rigid, dour , unimaginative manager a 6 year deal.

Chagan

kryogen wrote: »

Genuinely, think and tell me who we should have in place instead of Moyes? Who provides a better option until the end of the season at least?

If Moyes were to be sacked, I'd like to see Hiddink come in. I read he's been lined up to take over the Dutch side after the World Cup so it would probably be a short term thing.

He did a good job in his short time with Chelsea and was popular in the dressing room (which could be an achievement in itself there). He has the reputation that the players would respect if perhaps that is the issue the players may have with Moyes.

It's all hypothetical though.

Liam O

wonderfullife wrote: »

I'd probably get Mike Phelan back on a short term contract until the summer as caretaker.

Anybody to take the helm for 6 months so they can get the right man. And by right man i don't necessarily mean a big name manager (which would be nice) but i'd sooner give Laudrup, Pochettino, etc a chance than Moyes.

If you're going to go for an unproven club manager who has done well at a smaller club (like Moyes) at least go for a young manager who has had some success (Martinez, Laudrup etc won at least 1 trophy) or someone who has demonstrably shown the ability to get smaller teams playing amazing football (Liverpool took that risk on Rodgers - looks like paying off, Everton on Martinez).

Big name manager would be ideal. Almost a pre-requisite. But i'd sooner have Laudrup or Pochettino in on a 2 year deal than give the likes of Moyes - a rigid, dour , unimaginative manager a 6 year deal.

This is great, Moyes has finished higher season after season with very little spend than any of them has even managed. Martinez is someone I was calling for in previous years but come on, he got his team relegated mere months ago. Swansea are 4 points off the drop right now and Pochettino inherited all of his most important players. Show a bit of loyalty with Moyes and I believe in time, i.e. this time next season, he will be making everyone eat their words.

kryogen

wonderfullife wrote: »

I'd probably get Mike Phelan back on a short term contract until the summer as caretaker.

Anybody to take the helm for 6 months so they can get the right man. And by right man i don't necessarily mean a big name manager (which would be nice) but i'd sooner give Laudrup, Pochettino, etc a chance than Moyes.

If you're going to go for an unproven club manager who has done well at a smaller club (like Moyes) at least go for a young manager who has had some success (Martinez, Laudrup etc won at least 1 trophy) or someone who has demonstrably shown the ability to get smaller teams playing amazing football (Liverpool took that risk on Rodgers - looks like paying off, Everton on Martinez).

Big name manager would be ideal. Almost a pre-requisite. But i'd sooner have Laudrup or Pochettino in on a 2 year deal than give the likes of Moyes - a rigid, dour , unimaginative manager a 6 year deal.

Is Mike Phelan more qualified to be a manager then Moyes? I wouldnt be so sure about that, anybody to take the helm for the next 6 months? Thats the problem right there with the idea of just sacking Moyes, if it is foolish to continue with him it is even more stupid to fire him without a plan!

What has Ponchettino done that would put him in a better position then Moyes? Get the boot from Espanyol? Take Southampton up, then back down the table again?

Laudrup who I also have time for hasnt really done anything to deserve a chance either or shown he can achieve results consistently.

Everton were playing some pretty good football under Moyes in recent times which kind of gets glossed over.

I would disagree that Phelan would do any better and find it odd that the two managers you put forth have proved even less then Moyes has to "deserve" a shot at the big time.

I am open to replacing Moyes if things dont work out, but not a hope in hell should be sack him just cause this season isnt going great as of yet, we are still in the CL, still in the league cup and not out of it in terms of CL qualification in the league.

Things can turn around very quickly in football. Who knows what position we will find ourselves in 4 - 6 weeks, I think it is important he brings in a couple of new faces this window but I am still confident that when we have our strikers back we will be ok. Sure RVP papered over the cracks before, why not again with Rooney even playing well

kryogen

Chagan wrote: »

If Moyes were to be sacked, I'd like to see Hiddink come in. I read he's been lined up to take over the Dutch side after the World Cup so it would probably be a short term thing.

He did a good job in his short time with Chelsea and was popular in the dressing room (which could be an achievement in itself there). He has the reputation that the players would respect if perhaps that is the issue the players may have with Moyes.

It's all hypothetical though.

I wouldnt mind Hiddink at all, Im not sure Roman would allow it to happen though, I am not advocating sacking Moyes either btw. Hiddink is a name I could lie with if it did happen though. Very good manager

wonderfullife

kryogen wrote: »

Is Mike Phelan more qualified to be a manager then Moyes? I wouldnt be so sure about that, anybody to take the helm for the next 6 months? Thats the problem right there with the idea of just sacking Moyes, if it is foolish to continue with him it is even more stupid to fire him without a plan!

What has Ponchettino done that would put him in a better position then Moyes? Get the boot from Espanyol? Take Southampton up, then back down the table again?

Laudrup who I also have time for hasnt really done anything to deserve a chance either or shown he can achieve results consistently.

Everton were playing some pretty good football under Moyes in recent times which kind of gets glossed over.

I would disagree that Phelan would do any better and find it odd that the two managers you put forth have proved even less then Moyes has to "deserve" a shot at the big time.

I am open to replacing Moyes if things dont work out, but not a hope in hell should be sack him just cause this season isnt going great as of yet, we are still in the CL, still in the league cup and not out of it in terms of CL qualification in the league.

Things can turn around very quickly in football. Who knows what position we will find ourselves in 4 - 6 weeks, I think it is important he brings in a couple of new faces this window but I am still confident that when we have our strikers back we will be ok. Sure RVP papered over the cracks before, why not again with Rooney even playing well

Look you might be proved right long term - he may prove people wrong.

But the same comments could be applied to Hodgson at Liverpool. People can still argue he may have proved them wrong. Time isn't a commodity football managers get. There are a handful of exceptions to this rule - Wenger being one. Most other coaches/managers get the bullet.

The problem with giving Moyes time (say, 2 years) is that the decline may be irreversible by then. Nobody is suggesting a Leeds scenario (yet) but if the decline is allowed to continue then it's very conceivable United are looking at 5-7 years without the title - because if you give Moyes 2 years before admitting defeat, it would probably take another 2-5 years for the next coach to come in, get his own players in, build a squad, rebuild a winning mentality etc.

Im not saying sacking Moyes is a quick fix but its all relative. As things stand with this manager i cant see a league title in at least 3 years. Which is a drought by the clubs standards.

Ps. anybody assuming or banking on a top 4 finish this year needs to open their eyes to the very real prospect the club won't be in the CL next year.

ardinn

wonderfullife wrote: »

Ps. anybody assuming or banking on a top 4 finish this year needs to open their eyes to the very real prospect the club won't be in the CL next year.

Im wondering what your financial situation is really like now and what damage not getting CL could do, long term.

I have heard that in the last month 220m was knocked off utd's share price which is directly linked to performance this season and resulting forecasts.

Do the glazers actually have the cash to put into the team?

I have been saying for a while that ferguson added 20% to utd over the last 5 years and you were never as good as results/titles showed.

Moyes is no ferguson but then no-one is, I have great admiration for what he achieved at utd, but I believe he jumped off a ship that everyone could see was sinking, at a time he thought even he couldnt bring the team back from where it was headed. Bringing Scholes back was billed as a great thing because he couldnt stay away from the game but in my eyes it was desperation as utd's midfield has been in tatters for years.

Back to finance, if the glazers cant pump money into this squad and you dont finish in the top 4 this year I feel you could see a leeds situation happening. Rooney doesnt want to be there, thats been clear for 2 yrs. Vidic agent has said he wants away, will rvp stay in this team past may with no CL?

Then there is the manager, a man who has been thrown to the dogs - Honestly Utd's fans (well, alot of them) were blinded by fergusons brilliance, and now that the teams true ability has been exposed, Moyes is getting the blame, he got the job of a man no-one could emulate, and inherited a team of mediocrity with 1 or 2 stars. And if the money isnt made available to him then he cannot begin to redevelop the squad. If the money isnt there then no other top manager will come in - why would they? So as a club you are stuck.

Are investors the answer? Is the debt on your club as bad as rumor says? Will missing out on top 4 have the ability to plunge utd to the championship as soon as 2 years time?

Blatter

ardinn wrote: »

Im wondering what your financial situation is really like now and what damage not getting CL could do, long term.

I have heard that in the last month 220m was knocked off utd's share price which is directly linked to performance this season and resulting forecasts.

Do the glazers actually have the cash to put into the team?

I have been saying for a while that ferguson added 20% to utd over the last 5 years and you were never as good as results/titles showed.

Moyes is no ferguson but then no-one is, I have great admiration for what he achieved at utd, but I believe he jumped off a ship that everyone could see was sinking, at a time he thought even he couldnt bring the team back from where it was headed. Bringing Scholes back was billed as a great thing because he couldnt stay away from the game but in my eyes it was desperation as utd's midfield has been in tatters for years.

Back to finance, if the glazers cant pump money into this squad and you dont finish in the top 4 this year I feel you could see a leeds situation happening. Rooney doesnt want to be there, thats been clear for 2 yrs. Vidic agent has said he wants away, will rvp stay in this team past may with no CL?

Then there is the manager, a man who has been thrown to the dogs - Honestly Utd's fans (well, alot of them) were blinded by fergusons brilliance, and now that the teams true ability has been exposed, Moyes is getting the blame, he got the job of a man no-one could emulate, and inherited a team of mediocrity with 1 or 2 stars. And if the money isnt made available to him then he cannot begin to redevelop the squad. If the money isnt there then no other top manager will come in - why would they? So as a club you are stuck.

Are investors the answer? Is the debt on your club as bad as rumor says? Will missing out on top 4 have the ability to plunge utd to the championship as soon as 2 years time?

No, your line of thinking is so far off the mark it borders on comedy.

United are in arguably the best financial shape in their history. Their revenue is through the roof alongside Bayern, Barca and Madrid. Interest repayments are down dramatically and the debt is virtually insignificant.

ardinn

Blatter wrote: »

No, your line of thinking is so far off the mark it borders on comedy.

United are in arguably the best financial shape in their history. Their revenue is through the roof alongside Bayern, Barca and Madrid. Interest repayments are down dramatically and the debt is virtually insignificant.

Ok so

I thought the dept was getting worse for utd so apologies for my ignorance. Expect to see massive investment then??

DM_7

Cleverley is not playing well. Moyes has got him fit which was a nice change but the role he is playing changed since last season. He is playing deep all the time and that is not what he is about. Last season he was far more effective as he played 10 yards further up the pitch.


Obviously nothing like the quality of Xavi or iniesta , shouldn't be first choice at United and they are the type of players United should be aspiring to have. As it goes I don't think he would be if Fellaini and Carrick were both available.

Anderson would be poor in the restrictive role Clev is stuck with. Not because of his Ability but rather he would play his own way and not follow Moyes directions on the role. Moyes broken system is a big factor in the poor play from the midfield imo.

Cypher_sounds

Cleverley is playing far too much for a squad player that he is.

Would love to see us get Coleman and play him as a winger in front of Rafael, knows his defensive responsibilities so would be solid defensive good crosses and a big goal threat.

beno619

DM-ICE wrote: »

Anderson would be poor in the restrictive role Clev is stuck with. Not because of his Ability but rather he would play his own way and not follow Moyes directions on the role. Moyes broken system is a big factor in the poor play from the midfield imo.

Things might improve if players ignore Moyes tactics :P

kippy

wonderfullife wrote: »

Look you might be proved right long term - he may prove people wrong.

But the same comments could be applied to Hodgson at Liverpool. People can still argue he may have proved them wrong. Time isn't a commodity football managers get. There are a handful of exceptions to this rule - Wenger being one. Most other coaches/managers get the bullet.

The problem with giving Moyes time (say, 2 years) is that the decline may be irreversible by then. Nobody is suggesting a Leeds scenario (yet) but if the decline is allowed to continue then it's very conceivable United are looking at 5-7 years without the title - because if you give Moyes 2 years before admitting defeat, it would probably take another 2-5 years for the next coach to come in, get his own players in, build a squad, rebuild a winning mentality etc.

Im not saying sacking Moyes is a quick fix but its all relative. As things stand with this manager i cant see a league title in at least 3 years. Which is a drought by the clubs standards.

Ps. anybody assuming or banking on a top 4 finish this year needs to open their eyes to the very real prospect the club won't be in the CL next year.

Itll take any manager that come in time to build a squad. As ive said before moyes needs 4 transfer windows before being fairly judged and in that period there will be issues.
What happens if Moyes is changed and 6 months down the line things are no better results wise? Change again?
Clubs go through bad patches. Historicilly you should know that and its part of being a fan. The key for united is cl qualificatiin. So long as that can be achieved in that transitional period things will work out.

kstand

Our 3 best players last night were our captain who it seems is set to leave in the summer, a 40 year old and an 18 year old kid.
Tom Cleverly should hold his head in shame - he was appalling last night. Why oh why is he being persisted with? The first ball Adam Johnson got, he waltzed past Cleverly, Cleverly didnt even make an effort to get back at him. I;d have subbed him there and then.
Toni is finished as well - his final ball (on the odd time he does go past someone) is poor. Time to think about pastures new for him.
As for Welbeck - is he a striker or someone who can play off the shoulder? Makes no effort to get past him man like Hernandez or RVP does. I think he's another average over-rated player with nothing to show for himself - at times he looks like a woman trapped in the body of a 14 year old boy.
I'm numb to it by now. I go to matches with a few headcases - one of them headbutted a wardrobe at home after we lost to Everton and put his fist through a partition wall on Sunday after Swansea beat us. The texts I got off him alst night kept me entertained if the football didnt. His first hit the nail on the head - what were we doing playing 1 up front away to effing Sunderland?

newballsplease

nuxxx wrote: »

Sorry but imo that is utter ****e and ignoring one of the forefront problems of the team at the minute. Cleverly receives the ball in CM and gives the most safe pass he can deliver every time. Even the balls he gives out to the wingers are to their feet and never in front of them so they can run and gain space on the opposition.

He doesn't carry the ball forward, like ever. He never plays balls over the top, its always sideways and along the ground. Once he passes it he runs forward, never into space to receive the ball but to areas where he can't receive the ball. Chamack used to do the exact same thing for Arsenal. Why? Because he's hiding from responsibility. He can't defend and he has zero goal threat. Hes a very limited player who runs alot and that's about it.

He lost the ball numerous times tonight and started throwing his hands in a strop instead of focusing on getting it back. Those were positions that he shouldn't have lost it. The guy is a fraud and is not up to any near the level Man United midfielders should be. Saying Iniesta or Xavi will look average is hilarious to me. Iniesta is capable of dribbling and bringing the ball forward, hes a goal threat and he always moves into space. Xavi has passing ranges similar to Scholes and great leadership qualities. Cleverley has none of these things, hes a one trick poney.

I hate reading stuff like the above defending some of these players, if the majority of fans and manager have the same reasoning we're gonna be stuck in mediocrity forever.

Rooneys talent and having to play cm or drop really deep to cover Cleverleys ass in games is a prime example of how poor he really is.

All in imo of course

This.
Took the words out of my mouth.

ricero

kstand wrote: »

Our 3 best players last night were our captain who it seems is set to leave in the summer, a 40 year old and an 18 year old kid.
Tom Cleverly should hold his head in shame - he was appalling last night. Why oh why is he being persisted with? The first ball Adam Johnson got, he waltzed past Cleverly, Cleverly didnt even make an effort to get back at him. I;d have subbed him there and then.
Toni is finished as well - his final ball (on the odd time he does go past someone) is poor. Time to think about pastures new for him.
As for Welbeck - is he a striker or someone who can play off the shoulder? Makes no effort to get past him man like Hernandez or RVP does. I think he's another average over-rated player with nothing to show for himself - at times he looks like a woman trapped in the body of a 14 year old boy.
I'm numb to it by now. I go to matches with a few headcases - one of them headbutted a wardrobe at home after we lost to Everton and put his fist through a partition wall on Sunday after Swansea beat us. The texts I got off him alst night kept me entertained if the football didnt. His first hit the nail on the head - what were we doing playing 1 up front away to effing Sunderland?

Punching walls and headbutting wardrobes how old are they 11 ? They sound very sad

kstand

ricero wrote: »

Punching walls and headbutting wardrobes how old are they 11 ? They sound very sad

He's 50 years of age. If you knew him you might not understand but it would paint a clearer picture. He used run an old boozer in the East End called the Alfred, think its closed down since. Over the years the Alfred gathered a collection of various photos and pictures in frames at all sorts of random locations on the walls. You can draw your own conclusions as to why.

kstand

kstand wrote: »

He's 50 years of age. If you knew him you might not understand but it would paint a clearer picture. He used run an old boozer in the East End called the Alfred, think its closed down since. Over the years the Alfred gathered a collection of various photos and pictures in frames at all sorts of random locations on the walls. You can draw your own conclusions as to why.

Punching walls over a result. Jaysus!

What does he do when he actually has a proper crisis in his life?!

Lord TSC

I get the idea that there might not be a manager available to replace Moyes, but I can't help but feel that THAT in itself is a hugely damning statement about what Moyes has done at United.

When Fergie retired, I think most would have thought it was the biggest job opening in the business. I think the vast majority of managers would have been jumping at the chance to manage one of the biggest teams in the world, the champions of England with such a massive legacy. Not many job openings make 24/7 news like this one did.

Fast forward 6 months or so, and now apparently people think (probably rightly) that we're not going to be able to find a replacement of sufficient caliber.

I'd like to believe there's very, very few managers who if you offered the job to wouldn't be able to turn it down. I know Jose is gone now. And Pep isn't going to leave Bayern. We've missed the boat on them now. But just the way the defence against sacking Moyes is "Well who else realistically can we get who is better..."....it's just such a defeatist attitude from a group who are trying not to be defeatist.

Personally, at this stage, I'd welcome an interim manager, be it someone established or be it someone like Giggs. Either would have the benefit of being able to take any glory that comes our way while being able to blame failures on the position Moyes left us in. For me, the important part would be showing that as a club, we're able to acknowledge a mistake was made, rather than being too stubborn to accept it. A statement saying "Replacing someone like Sir Alex was obviously going to be a long and difficult road, and to expect to emulate it straight off the bat was foolish. As such, we now plan on spending 6 months interviewing and finding the best man for the job, based not on how long he'll stay but how good he is."

But the season is not going to be a fruitful one now, so may as well try and look like we're moving to do something about it, rather than stubborn and sticking heads into sand.

Or you know...get Klopp. :pac:

bantee

nuxxx wrote: »

Sorry but imo that is utter ****e and ignoring one of the forefront problems of the team at the minute. Cleverly receives the ball in CM and gives the most safe pass he can deliver every time. Even the balls he gives out to the wingers are to their feet and never in front of them so they can run and gain space on the opposition.

He doesn't carry the ball forward, like ever. He never plays balls over the top, its always sideways and along the ground. Once he passes it he runs forward, never into space to receive the ball but to areas where he can't receive the ball. Chamack used to do the exact same thing for Arsenal. Why? Because he's hiding from responsibility. He can't defend and he has zero goal threat. Hes a very limited player who runs alot and that's about it.

He lost the ball numerous times tonight and started throwing his hands in a strop instead of focusing on getting it back. Those were positions that he shouldn't have lost it. The guy is a fraud and is not up to any near the level Man United midfielders should be. Saying Iniesta or Xavi will look average is hilarious to me. Iniesta is capable of dribbling and bringing the ball forward, hes a goal threat and he always moves into space. Xavi has passing ranges similar to Scholes and great leadership qualities. Cleverley has none of these things, hes a one trick poney.

I hate reading stuff like the above defending some of these players, if the majority of fans and manager have the same reasoning we're gonna be stuck in mediocrity forever.

Rooneys talent and having to play cm or drop really deep to cover Cleverleys ass in games is a prime example of how poor he really is.

All in imo of course

Sums up Cleverley's game perfectly. He is such a mediocre player in fairness. So frustrating to watch.
At this stage, I'd prefer to see Ando start ahead of him, even though he's supposedly on his way out. At least he'll try to thread a decent pass and move forward with the play most of the time.

Fishyfreak

If I can use an analogy but Man United are like an episode of "Air Crash Investigation" at the moment, it's never just one thing that brings the plane down but a series of blunders all happening at once.

- failure to get business done in the Summer.
- Ferguson not strenghtening when obvious flaws existed (which we can only assume is due to a lack of funds)
- Moyes clearing out a backroom staff of people familiar with the club, the tactics, mentality, experience of winning things etc
- Horrendous injury list at the moment
- Squad players playing regularly who in previous seasons wouldn't get a sniff
- Negative tactics
- Poor performances from experienced players

Football is a fickle game though, who know's how we will be shaping up in a months time. Hopefully not any worse

_Kaiser_

Moyes insists he's not in Fergie's shadow:

Beleaguered Manchester United boss David Moyes insists Alex Ferguson’s shadow is not looming over him as he attempts to revive the club’s season.
Moyes’ predecessor sat alongside Sir Bobby Charlton and Bryan Robson in the stands at the Stadium of Light on Tuesday night as relegation-threatened Sunderland condemned his side to a third successive defeat, the latest coming in the first leg of their Capital One Cup semi-final, for the first time in almost 13 years.
However, the Scot is adamant that the trio are a great help rather than a hindrance as he attempts to stamp his authority on the club.
Asked if their presence was an added pressure, he said: “Not at all.
“Alex is a great sounding-board for me. He is there to help, so is Sir Bobby. He is terrific. Bryan Robson is at the training ground regularly, I speak to him regularly.
“I find the three of them terrific.”

Now personally I have no stake in this save that I would rather a strong competitive United for the sake of the league and the game, and I don't see him going anywhere till the end of the season anyway at which point maybe the board/owners will re-evaluate but (taking these articles with a pinch of salt anyway for context etc) making statements like that does sound a little desperate IMO

sawfish

Bridge93 wrote: »

But then you suggest Giggs... A man who has never managed. Right ok.
Surely if Moyes isn't qualified Giggs is even less/not at all.

I was only talking sh!te, like a lot of people on here.

Moyes will get two full seasons at least, unless fighting relegation. Discussion over:)

Lovely Bloke

People punching walls and actually causing damage to property is just a tiny step away from what them African lads do be at after losses.

Weird behaviour really.

Irishcrx

I'm not usually one to get involved in player bashing but I have to agree with the comments on Cleverly, I really wanted him to work out and become a good player for Utd , he came from the academy and has been given a lot of support by the fans and has had the game time required to become a good player but it's time to call it a day with him. He'd be decent at a mid level club but he has no more business in a Utd shirt.

Shy Cleverly is what I call him , he shy's away from responsibility in CM and from the ball and he does this very obviously, when he receives it there is no dynamics to his play , his long range passing is poor and its always simple passes that are not contributing to our attacks, he hides in between players in awkward positions never gets into good space or aliviates pressure on his team mates to receive the ball, he mis-times his tackles and throws strops constantly. He is not a Utd player, Nick Powell would benefit more from getting his game time because you can see with Powell that he has the qualities a Utd player needs and if this season is going to continue as it is, one in which we are in transition then bring him back and let him ride out the season as a squad player getting ready for a 1st team role next season.

It really is hard to watch at the minute for the fans, many of us are just unsure what is happening, there is a lot of uncertanty about what direction we are heading. The older Utd fans of course will stick by their team, it doesn't matter if we end up mid table, or dogging it out for a few seasons should the worst happen we will be there but the younger generation may not, you see a lot of new 'Man City' fans popping up 'Chelsea' a few years ago. My younger brother decided at Xmas (He's 8) that he's supporting Liverpool now and went out and bought the shirt. If Utd are not up and fighting at the top the younger crowd won't come in and that will affect revnue over the next few years, I know it's a long way off but that is what happens. Look at Everton in the 80's , loads of Everon fans in their 40's/50's around, not many younger one's. (Leeds Utd) another one.

Fishyfreak

Irishcrx wrote: »

Nick Powell would benefit more from getting his game time because you can see with Powell that he has the qualities a Utd player needs and if this season is going to continue as it is, one in which we are in transition then bring him back and let him ride out the season as a squad player getting ready for a 1st team role next season.

Have to agree about Powell. While i'm not suggesting he is the answer to our midfield problems but he's got potential. I was disgusted to see him loaned out.

IamtheWalrus

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

When Fergie retired, I think most would have thought it was the biggest job opening in the business. I think the vast majority of managers would have been jumping at the chance to manage one of the biggest teams in the world

The Utd manager's job is still one of the most coveted in football. To say otherwise and blame Moyes is harsh.

TimeToShine

Not a United fan but I really find it nothing short of baffling how Ferguson decided to let Pogba go while deciding that Cleverley was talented enough to fill the CM role.

wonderfullife

The easy way to assess Cleverley is in asking this:

Would any rival club want to sign him? What rival sides would he get into?

He wouldn't get into Arsenals midfield. Defo not into Citys. Couldn't see him getting in Chelseas. Couldn't even see him getting in Liverpools with Henderson playing like a man who has discovered he's actually rather good at this football craic. He might get into Spurs midfield right now given Sherwood might not rate Capoue/Paulinho. Can't see him getting ahead of Gareth Barry at Everton either.

So he MIGHT get in maybe 1 rival team.

2nd question: If he was transfer listed, who would come in for him and for how much?

Given he's an England international, there is a premium on the transfer fee. All english players have hyper-inflated fees.

That being said i would suggest the bidders would be the likes of: Aston Villa, Hull, Newcastle, West Ham. He doesn't score goals and he isn't a prolific assist maker so you'd have to put his value at £9-£12m.

That says it all. A player worth the low end of the 10m's who wouldn't get into any rival side yet seems to be 1st choice at Manchester United.

IamtheWalrus

TimeToShine wrote: »

Not a United fan but I really find it nothing short of baffling how Ferguson decided to let Pogba go while deciding that Cleverley was talented enough to fill the CM role.

nullzero

Vidic looking to leave now? Exodus beginning...

GSPfan

So if Sunderland knock us out of the League Cup at Old Trafford we basically lose all hope of a trophy this year. That's depressing for January.

Soft Falling Rain

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

People punching walls and actually causing damage to property is just a tiny step away from what them African lads do be at after losses.

Weird behaviour really.

Er, actually wagering your gaf and mobs descending on you to throw you out would slightly trump punching the wall for me.

bullvine

At this stage I'd take Robbo till the end of the season, thats how bad it is..

slingerz

A lot of knee jerking going on. I think Moyes needs to be given time though to put his slant on things and to rebuild the team in his image. After Ferguson's tenure it was never going to be easy to get the same from the players and a number of them have a lot of miles on the clock.

Fergie benefitted from the class of '92, dont know if you could possibly put a value on what they would cost now if Moyes was to recruit a similar bunch. United need to avoid flip flopping between managers know trying to secure an easy fix.

Knex*

kryogen wrote: »

I understand that Jan is positive, but by **** is he wasteful.

I assume the misquoted ****e from Vidic agent has already passed into the realms of fact by now and people will be coninved he is on his bike?

Bound to happen for a youth player. He has bags and bags of ability though and is a real positive for United right now.

From yer perspective thought, its such a shame that others aren't stepping up to the plate and taking some of the creative onus off him. Not fair at all, and you could well see him burn out as the season wears on.

Personally, I don't think Moyes is setting up in a way that's conducive to getting the most out of his best players, right now.

Mitch Connor

slingerz wrote: »

A lot of knee jerking going on. I think Moyes needs to be given time though to put his slant on things and to rebuild the team in his image. After Ferguson's tenure it was never going to be easy to get the same from the players and a number of them have a lot of miles on the clock.

Fergie benefitted from the class of '92, dont know if you could possibly put a value on what they would cost now if Moyes was to recruit a similar bunch. United need to avoid flip flopping between managers know trying to secure an easy fix.

indeed.

So failure to do any squad overhaul in the summer, and a refusal to do it now, is moronically stupid.

His failure to implement any sort of style of play is also gauling.

No pace or tempo to our play. No incisiveness. No pressing of the opposition. No pressure on them. No ideas what to do.

Moyes, so far, has been an absolute disaster on every level imo. Playing Januzaj and rejecting Chelsea's bids for Rooney are not even close to convincing the man has any idea how to tackle the task at hand.

Doesn't want to bring in the players he can, doesn't have a clue what to do with the ones he has.

GSPfan

bullvine wrote: »

At this stage I'd take Robbo till the end of the season, thats how bad it is..

Never thought of that. Thats more a possibility than Fergie or Giggs actually.