Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14 Mod warning post #718

adox

Kagawa was put out left after about half an hour.

Funnily enough I thought Valencia did alright today.

Evra was the poorest Utd player today IMO. Woeful defensively and offerd nothing going forward.

Any lingering hopes of title probably gone with that result.

Really poor game overall.

Giggsy11

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

What are you on about?

None of this happened in reality?

About Kagawa that is

What didn't happen? Kagawa playing centrally for most of the game? Or him doing absolute **** all whole game?

Rayne Wooney

Ordinary man wrote: »

Who is going to win it then?

We aren't that's for certain

Going by the performances so far this season and the squad we have

Liam O

I've been very vocally critical of Valencia on here but today he wasn't the problem. He did well enough given how isolated he was out there. The problems begin and end with the tactics employed. Players all over the place not knowing their roles. Difficult passes needed in areas where there should be a lot of support and an overall feeling of nervousness on the field. I'm happy to give it a season for Moyes to bring in some players and let us see what he's about but there's only so much of this that I can take. I was vocal about it being the end of Fergie's time last season and the one before because of similar issues and welcomed someone with new ideas being brought to the table but so far it's just been the same old crap. Seems Wednesday was a false dawn.

irishfeen

Other teams above us will drop points against Tottenham too so it won't be this result that will loose the league - 9 points to Arsenal with Chelsea, Man City and Liverpool all above us and in a bit of form is making this look like a big mountain to climb now.

bucketybuck

Cleverley absolutely atrocious
Valencia useless as usual
Smalling never a full back

Game after game its the same old story. Cleverly crap, Valencia offering nothing. Tune in next week for another episode of Cleverley being crap and Valencia offering not a gaddamn thing. Its ridiculous.

Hank Scorpio

n32 wrote: »

Compared to some wingers he is very disciplined defensivley and gives great protection to the full back. He works hard to win the ball back. Maybe they want to give him plenty game time to get his.form back to that of 2012

What other top wingers do you know of that slow the game up, doesn't get his head up and drills the ball low where 9/10 times it gets blocked and goes out for a throw in. When did he ever cut in from the right and score a goal for United, hes so one footed its unreal. I agree hes good defensively, maybe he should just switch to right back. How much more time does he need, hes been starting every game

Headshot

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

fyp

Na not that bad

we should get 4th

Giggsy11

Liam O wrote: »

I've been very vocally critical of Valencia on here but today he wasn't the problem. He did well enough given how isolated he was out there. The problems begin and end with the tactics employed. Players all over the place not knowing their roles. Difficult passes needed in areas where there should be a lot of support and an overall feeling of nervousness on the field. I'm happy to give it a season for Moyes to bring in some players and let us see what he's about but there's only so much of this that I can take. I was vocal about it being the end of Fergie's time last season and the one before because of similar issues and welcomed someone with new ideas being brought to the table but so far it's just been the same old crap. Seems Wednesday was a false dawn.

Valencia did well few times but he didn't get any support from Smalling at all. Yeah at least today Valencia was not the problem, it was Evra who offered almost nothing going forward and lazy tracking back and Kagawa who didn't even create a single chance.

TheDoc

Le sigh....

Alot of talk about us never loosing to Spurs in donkeys at White hart lane, but this is a different Spurs side, coming of a 6-0 hiding. It was always going to be tough.

Happy enough with 2-2. Something doesn't feel right about the team, bar the glaringly shocking midfield we have, which needs addressing. Jones out now for Everton, what the hell is going to go up against their CM's who are on fire at the moment.

We need to find a relatively good starting 11 and stick with it for a few matches, too much chopping and changing is creating disjointment. Welbeck is only back, should not have been in the mix today.

I'd be persisting with Rooney up top, Kagawa in behind, Valencia out right, Nani out left (Valencia rotating with Janners) and leave it be for a few weeks. Our front line just isn't feeling fluid, but there is glimpses where it is.

I keep saying it, Moyes eventually will stop tip toeing around and just start making some big decisions, and the first one he needs to make is picking a front four, and sticking with it. Until injury or it's clearly not working.

Too much change and rotation going on, the team just isn't blistering anymore. Which is annoying, considering it was the reason Berbatov was sold, and the direction SAF was going, a lightning quick team.

edgecutter

Moyes line up was wrong. We need the points and Spurs are on a dreadful run(so are we), but he played defensive.
Welbeck didn't look fit and should not have started. Nani on the left would have made more sense, as it would have helped are attack which just constantly seems to be down the right wing.

Even after we equalised, we should have gone for it, but the players out their just don't seem to have it or funny enough don't have the hunger anymore.

Remember the times we always use to go for it in the last few minutes, those days are long gone. Moyes far too defensive, we are going backwards and ironically everton are going forward.

Rayne Wooney

Giggsy11 wrote: »

What didn't happen? Kagawa playing centrally for most of the game? Or him doing absolute **** all whole game?

Moyes put him out on the left wing after Spurs scored and left him out there until he was subbed

It's all on Moyes, it should have been Welbeck off for Nani after 20 minutes if Moyes wanted to make changes not switching to 4-4-2 and sticking Kagawa out isolated on the wing and Danny fcuking Welbz up front.

Cleverley was by far our worst player today, completely out of his depth and shouldn't be near the starting 11 of United, January can't come quick enough for us.

Liam O

TheDoc wrote: »

Le sigh....

Alot of talk about us never loosing to Spurs in donkeys at White hart lane, but this is a different Spurs side, coming of a 6-0 hiding. It was always going to be tough.

Happy enough with 2-2. Something doesn't feel right about the team, bar the glaringly shocking midfield we have, which needs addressing. Jones out now for Everton, what the hell is going to go up against their CM's who are on fire at the moment.

We need to find a relatively good starting 11 and stick with it for a few matches, too much chopping and changing is creating disjointment. Welbeck is only back, should not have been in the mix today.

I'd be persisting with Rooney up top, Kagawa in behind, Valencia out right, Nani out left (Valencia rotating with Janners) and leave it be for a few weeks. Our front line just isn't feeling fluid, but there is glimpses where it is.

I keep saying it, Moyes eventually will stop tip toeing around and just start making some big decisions, and the first one he needs to make is picking a front four, and sticking with it. Until injury or it's clearly not working.

Too much change and rotation going on, the team just isn't blistering anymore. Which is annoying, considering it was the reason Berbatov was sold, and the direction SAF was going, a lightning quick team.

It's not even just picking a front 4, it's purely tactical. There's no quick passing because everyone is miles from each other which gives the other team so much time to adapt to the attack. As soon as a player gets the ball the other players around him turn and run away. No support is ever offered by anyone other than the 2 CMs most of the time. How many times did Rooney or Cleverley have to play long passes to Valencia today while in the middle? Too many. The team is too rigid and this means that one player can mark the wingers and full backs and they can then double up on the players inside leaving no space. There's just no fluidity.

J. Marston

Headshot wrote: »

sigh there goes the PL title, we are only going for a CL spot at this stage

Must be the worst defence of a league in some time.

Oregano_State

I thought kagawa played well in patches, but it was a disjointed performance overall from united and we didn't use him enough.

There was one play where kagawa took the ball tiered the centre then switched it outside, releasing Evra with a reverse pass that resulted in a dangerous cross.

Cleverly was muck.

Giggsy11

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Moyes put him out on the left wing after Spurs scored and left him out there until he was subbed

It's all on Moyes, it should have been Welbeck off for Nani after 20 minutes if Moyes wanted to make changes not switching to 4-4-2 and sticking Kagawa out isolated on the wing and Danny fcuking Welbz up front.

Cleverley was by far our worst player today, completely out of his depth and shouldn't be near the starting 11 of United, January can't come quick enough for us.

Not really. Even when we were 2-1 down Kagawa played centrally and he even had his shot blocked. Kagawa and Welbeck swapped positions few times but Kagawa spent most of the time centrally.

Kagawa played few mins out of position, Welbeck played almost entire game out of position. Welbeck was back from injury and won us penalty, Kagawa was fit and didn't create anything but still Kagawa hardly gets any stick from fans. Homer was spot on about Kagawa tbh.

Oh btw, you can check the heat map

http://espnfc.com/en/gamecast/367366/gamecast.html?soccernet=true&cc=4716

http://www.whoscored.com/Matches/720206/MatchReport/England-Premier-League-2013-2014-Tottenham-Manchester-United

PhlegmyMoses

Giggsy11 wrote: »

Not really. Even when we were 2-1 down Kagawa played centrally and he even had his shot blocked. Kagawa and Welbeck swapped positions few times but Kagawa spent most of the time centrally.

Kagawa played few mins out of position, Welbeck played almost entire game out of position. Welbeck was back from injury and won us penalty, Kagawa was fit and didn't create anything but still Kagawa hardly gets any stick from fans. Homer was spot on about Kagawa tbh.

Oh btw, you can check the heat map

http://espnfc.com/en/gamecast/367366/gamecast.html?soccernet=true&cc=4716

http://www.whoscored.com/Matches/720206/MatchReport/England-Premier-League-2013-2014-Tottenham-Manchester-United

He wasn't great today. Give him a run of games behind the striker. Let's see what he can do. Nobody is right about Kagawa playing there until he actually gets a run of 20/30 games in a season playing in his best position. Moyes has stuck with Valencia despite him offering very little as an attacking winger in a year and a half. Let's do the same with Kagawa.

Giggsy11

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

He wasn't great today. Give him a run of games behind the striker. Let's see what he can do. Nobody is right about Kagawa playing there until he actually gets a run of 20/30 games in a season playing in his best position. Moyes has stuck with Valencia despite him offering very little as an attacking winger in a year and a half. Let's do the same with Kagawa.

Except it's really hard to give him run of games there. Rooney and RVP are proven world class players so it's hard for Kagawa to get many games there.

I'm not against Kagawa or anything like that, just that players returning from injury playing out of position gets so much **** but not a word about player who was fully fit and had poor game.

Your Airbag

Kagawa made no impact today. Valencia cannot beat a man anymore. Rooney saved us again.

Of all the players out there Cleverly stuck out like a sore thumb. He was very poor. Physically, mentally and for pace he looked out of his depth. He seems to get caught in possession from behind a lot and he passes the ball the second he gets it, there is no looking up to see the play ahead of him or desire to beat a man, there is so little to his game and I honestly don't know how he is on the UTD books.

supersean1999

The biggest problem today was the fact Jones and clev playing together cannot dictate à game. Clev is a typical squad player utd have had over the years . O shea etc. But he is simply not good enough to be a regular starter. As for welbeck i really think he missed his chosen sport as a cross country runner. Im looking forward to next summer for moyes to weed à few players out. Young and evra will be first to go. Along with Ferdinand and a couple more.

Liam O

Jones fades too much in 2nd halves for my liking, seems to burn himself out early on.

Pudsy33

I think its unfair to criticise any player in a forward role having to play in front of that excuse of a midfield.

Giggsy11

Liam O wrote: »

Jones fades too much in 2nd halves for my liking, seems to burn himself out early on.

Cleverley was worse. He could barely stand in the last 10 mins of the game but still was kept on even though we had Anderson and Fellaini on the bench.

Young sub was such a waste of time and spot.

Devil08

edgecutter wrote: »

9 points behind arse, I think we are done for the title this year.

We have won many titles with bigger gaps, pull yourself together

Nalz

Your Airbag wrote: »

Valencia cannot beat a man anymore.

He did 2 or 3 times today

Nalz

bucketybuck wrote: »

Cleverley absolutely atrocious
Valencia useless as usual
Smalling never a full back

Game after game its the same old story. Cleverly crap, Valencia offering nothing. Tune in next week for another episode of Cleverley being crap and Valencia offering not a gaddamn thing. Its ridiculous.

Clev was below par
Valencia showed slight improvement but still not good enough
Kagawa faded in the second half
Jones looked tired the last 20 minutes

I don't think we'll win the league but if we pull it together over the Christmas and get OT back to a fortress we have a chance. Slight chance.

Some of it will go down to what goes on in January window too.

Headshot

When is Clev ever above par?

Robson99

Biggest problem today was that on Wednesday Giggs was able to link up play with Kagawa, Valencia, Nani and Rooney, play the pass at the right time and get forward and support the front men, Cleverly done none of that today. Its unfair to be blaming Welbeck, Valencia and Kagawa as they had to come deeper and deeper to link up with the midfield.

Another problem is that when Rafa is out we have no natural right back. Smalling is a top class centre half but is not a composed fulback attacking wise. We would be better with Valencia right back and Nani/ Adnan ahead of him.And Evra was s**te today

Your Airbag

Trilla wrote: »

He did 2 or 3 times today

With the amount of ball he had that is shocking. When a defender is containing him he just can't get past and his cross from behind the defender usually hit the defender. He must be getting picked for his defensive workrate.

Rayne Wooney

Yep

It's needs to be

Defence-->Midfield--->Kagawa--->Striker

which we saw a lot of midweek, albeit against a midfield that didn't put on any pressure.

Today Cleverley was so bad that it was just going from the defence to Rooney/Val in the form of a hoof. Moyes changing to 4-4-2 so early only fuelled this and I was surprised he didn't put Fellaini on instead of Hernandez for Welbeck to complete the Everton-esque style.


Moyes' style of play so far is dreadful and I can only pray that it's so because of the lack of quality personnel, because if this is the United of the future we can kiss Europe goodbye.

Nalz

Headshot wrote: »

When is Clev ever above par?

True, I get what you're saying. It was more a nothing\meh performance from him whereby he did all the simple things and tried without any force or drive to dictate (for want of a better word) the play and the pace of the game in front of spurs, moving into easy positions to receive the ball, playing the simple pass etc.

His delivery and forward movement was poor to non existent. He didn't get involved in to many 50-50s or crunching tackles. Just did the simple easy things without making a big impact.

He'll have one great game in like 10-15 appearances. Ironically the last time I saw him live having a great game was vs Spurs a few years back when Utd won 3-0 at OT.

I thought he'd come to more and his forward play\getting into the box would have improved and be a fantastic assist to us. Hasn't happened. He's just not at the top level as most people can see.

bucketybuck

How Tom Cleverley completed that game today is a fcuking mystery to me?

Just what the hell is happening with Felliani that David Moyes could sit on the sideline and allow that to happen without making a change?

Nalz

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

It's all on Moyes, it should have been Welbeck off for Nani after 20 minutes if Moyes wanted to make changes not switching to 4-4-2 and sticking Kagawa out isolated on the wing and Danny fcuking Welbz up front.

I agree.

Welbeck did improve second half a little and Valencia slightly improved overall but neither of their performance were up to the standard we require. That says a lot for how bad they were before this. Honest lads and very likeable but they are just not cutting it.

Nani should have came on earlier and Kagawa should have been left be, he could do nothing in the second half and was wasted.

Poor chico had next to no delivery too, and not a lot of time. I said it in the match thread at halftime when someone called for him on saying he'd easily nick a goal for us. I just didn't see how as we rarely threatened their goal.

Thatsfootball

Didn't see any of the game so can't comment about it. But what is clear is that Rooney proved what an influence he is on the team.

In terms of fixtures, Utd have played City, Liverpool, Spurs away which are 3 of last seasons top 7 teams.
Even 9 pts behind isn't all that bad, After Wednesday, Arsenal play Everton, City and Chelsea in consecutive games. This leaves plenty of room for dropped points from all teams around the top.

While it's a big gap to make up, it's better having a 9 point gap after 13 games, than with just 13 left. Still 25 games to go.

Against Everton I think most expect Giggs to start, with Jones now out (injured?).

Normally a draw away to Spurs isn't that bad of a result.

IvySlayer

Jones is suspended for Wednesday

Headshot

Man I feel alot better now and can crack a smile or 2 lol

Mitch Connor

Didn't have a problem with personal performances today from most of the players - thought Jones and Cleverley did well considering, Cleverley faded, but Moyes should have subbed him. THought positionally he was good and got stuck in. Lost the ball a few times, but mostly down to being passed to at the wrong time or in a poor position.

Thought Valencia should have come off a lot sooner - basically offered nothing, just kept drilling the ball in a general direction, never tries to pick someone out.

Welbeck/Kagawa left Evra too isolated, and he had a poor one defensively.

user2011

Love when ex reds hear our call too screw over Liverpool :pac:

Now for Swansea and Southampton 2 draws please or Swansea win if I'm being greedy.

ROCKMAN

Is the everton game on weds been shown on TV

J. Marston

Meh, it's not the same poking fun when you're behind them in the table.

Jimmy Iovine

Trilla wrote: »

He did 2 or 3 times today

He couldn't do anything when he got past them. His crosses have now become low drives towards goal. Invariably, they just hit the first man and are useless.

Cantona's Collars

Chelsea 1 down after 15 seconds.

RasTa

zerks wrote: »

Chelsea 1 down after 15 seconds.

Do not start Wednesdays match thread

The_Kew_Tour

Ya its all zerks fault cleverly cant pass for **** and welbeck cant score for **** :~}

Cantona's Collars

RasTa wrote: »

Do not start Wednesdays match thread

The one the other night didn't turn out so bad.

The game Wednesday isn't on Sky/BT so it's streams only or talk nice to the Polish neighbours.

RasTa

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Ya its all zerks fault cleverly cant pass for **** and welbeck cant score for **** :~}

Don't mock the gods

IvySlayer

Jol sacked, looks like Rene might be the new manager

RasTa

Powell scored for Wigan

tallaghtmick

Suppose we can be happy we're still unbeaten in what 11-12 games :pac:

IvySlayer

Luke Shaw would be perfect.