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Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14 Mod warning post #718
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onemorechance wrote: »
Thats a very nice picture. If only it hadn't been forgotten by the time we were so horrid against Spurs.
Have you any opinions on the question asked?0 -
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Ok, you can put all of those into the forward category I suppose. I picked the most vertical of his passes but some of those are stretching it from the viewpoint they are very close to being horizontal and some are very short and basic.
I think the point still stands about Cleverly, he is very limited and that graph shows it.
But that is only his passing stats. I mentioned his pace, physicallity and concentration in an earlier post, they are all off that top level standard. I agree that our midfeild as a whole is poor as Carrick is not on his best form and Fellaini seems to be a shadow of his Everton self but Clev stands out amongst them
His defensive display for the equaliser was also poor. In the picture here you can see how much space he affords sandro, as does Fellaini and Welbeck but Clev is the player who must get close.
When Sandro gets the ball Clev rushes in like a headless chicken, gets turned twice and allows the player to get his shot away. His actions were rash and sloppy and he should have been tighter to the player. Sandro is a good bit taller and possibly heavier but still gets away from him with ease, its not down to Sandro's pace or muscle as they never touched its just sloppy play.
Clev is a hard worker but its not enough, he keeps it short and simple the majority of the time with his passing but offers little threat with that passing and is a liability in defense.
If we are honest would not get into the midfield of our rivals and he should not get anything else than the same treatment from us. If we had other options I don't think he would get a look in. Nice guy and a workhorse but I don't think he is UTD standard.0 -
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Your Airbag wrote: »Ok, you can put all of those into the forward category I suppose. I picked the most vertical of his passes but some of those are stretching it from the viewpoint they are very close to being horizontal and some are very short and basic.
I think the point still stands about Cleverly, he is very limited and that graph shows it.
It's the same for all the players. They all have the same types of passes included and are treated in the same way for those passing charts. You and others have claimed that Cleverley stood out yesterday as not up to the standard. Yet he had the second highest number of passes on the pitch (1 behind Jones), with the most forward and the most in the final third of any midfielder on either team.
If that chart shows that Cleverley is very limited then the other charts show that Sandro, Dembele and Paulinho are completely incapable.Your Airbag wrote: »But that is only his passing stats. I mentioned his pace, physicallity and concentration in an earlier post, they are all off that top level standard. I agree that our midfeild as a whole is poor as Carrick is not on his best form and Fellaini seems to be a shadow of his Everton self but Clev stands out amongst them
No he does not. He passes at least as well, often better, than the rest of them while also making a reasonable number of tackles, interceptions and blocks and taking up decent defensive positions.
Show me specific examples of where his pace, strength or concentration weren't up to standard. Tell me when exactly they happened in the game and I will look at them. I'm not saying that he has been playing brilliantly, far from it, but he has been playing at a similar level to the rest of our midfield this season.Your Airbag wrote: »His defensive display for the equaliser was also poor. In the picture here you can see how much space he affords sandro, as does Fellaini and Welbeck but Clev is the player who must get close.
When Sandro gets the ball Clev rushes in like a headless chicken, gets turned twice and allows the player to get his shot away. His actions were rash and sloppy and he should have been tighter to the player. Sandro is a good bit taller and possibly heavier but still gets away from him with ease, its not down to Sandro's pace or muscle as they never touched its just sloppy play.
Clev is a hard worker but its not enough, he keeps it short and simple the majority of the time with his passing but offers little threat with that passing and is a liability in defense.
If we are honest would not get into the midfield of our rivals and he should not get anything else than the same treatment from us. If we had other options I don't think he would get a look in. Nice guy and a workhorse but I don't think he is UTD standard.
Cleverley is in the correct position in that picture. He is covering behind Jones who is in line with the player with the ball and the goal. That's where he should be. Where do you want him to be?
When the ball gets played to Sandro Cleverley did not rush in like a headless chicken. The problem was after Sandro put in his turn Clev bought it too much and ended up getting turned again. It still required a screamer from Sandro out of nowhere to score. 99 times out of 100 he doesn't score that goal and the slip from the defending midfielder goes unpunished.
Playing short and simple passes is not an issue. All good CMs do it. And calling him a defensive liability is complete nonsense.0 -
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Bleating Lamb wrote: »Wasn't too impressed to read in Sunday Independent that Utd are going in for Herrera again during Christmas break....did signing one overrated midfielder in the summer not teach them anything
He was amazing against Barcelona tbf0 -
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Big post I made yesterday about Cleverley has gone missing with no explanation. I'm going to guess it was chopped because of the link to a video website. So here it is again without the link:
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The truth about yesterday is that it was the same crap as we've seen all season. Moyes' completely turgid style of play with the team able to pass the ball a lot, but unable to create properly. But Cleverley was playing so that's a chance for people to rip in to him and chat all sorts of bollocks. Despite the fact that he was no worse than any of our midfielders have been all season.
If anybody would care to point out exactly when the awful play that Cleverley supposedly perpetrated took place yesterday I'd be very interested. Never mind the wishy washy "just not up to the standard" stuff, point out the terrible things that he did so we can all see them clearly.Your Airbag wrote: »You'll also notice in that graphic that the majority of his blue (successful) passes are almost directly to the side or backwards. His forward passes have a 50% success rate, about 4 red and 4 blue, the four blue ones are going out wide, there is nothing there directly going into the penalty area. Actually he didn't pass the ball into the box or into a central position just outside it and the majority of his passes in advanced central areas are backwards or horizontal passes. He literally never tired or could not attempt a creative or defense splitting pass.
Its a stat that gets thrown out about him a lot after he has a bad game "Yeah but look he had a better pass % than Carrick, it was in the eighties". Its not hard when most of those passes are to safe bets and short and uncreative. Its a play like this that slows everything down and takes the momentum from our play. I would like to see, just once, Rooney and RVP up top with Kagawa as the partner to Fellaini or Carrick in MF and to see how true the "he can't operate effectively there" opinion really is. It can't get much worse than Clev's display.
You are wrong. Cleverley passed the ball forward successfully 24 times, sideways 9 and backwards 20. So nearly half his passes were forwards.
link
It's fair of you to debate how many of those passes in that image you would call forwards, but to say that all but four of them were sideways is completely false. The same for the people saying that all his forward passes were short or simple.
Not enough of his passes went into the box? That is definitely true, and that has been a problem with all of our midfielders this season. Passing into the channels and forcing the overlap is clearly the main aim of Moyes' tactics this season. No positive or defence splitting passes from him? No, that is untrue. He played some lovely balls into the channels between the fullbacks and centre backs yesterday that turned the defence and put a United attacker in behind them.
Cleverley didn't pass the ball often enough yesterday, only 53/60. But he had the second most passes on the pitch after Jones (54/66) when he was passing much more adventurously than Jones (16/18 in the attacking third for TC to Jones' 6/11). In Spurs' midfield Demebele had 32/40 passes, Sandro 23/29 and Paulinho 13/18. So in the context of what went on in the game, how shít United have been playing all season under Moyes and how the (much sought after in this thread) Spurs CMs passed it, Cleverley's 53 passes weren't too bad. But yet he is painted as out of his depth on that performance by posters in this thread. It is complete bullshít.He only made 2 tackles in the centre of the park? What is ball recovery? Is that when Spurs misplace a pass and it's going no where and he gets his foot on it? Again only 2 interceptions in a big game playing in the most important position on the pitch?
Only 2 interceptions, only 2 tackles, only 1 clearance is not good enough... oh no wait, actually it is. Those are perfectly respectable numbers if you bother to compare them to the norm that you see around the top teams in the league.Rayne Wooney wrote: »Today Cleverley was so bad that it was just going from the defence to Rooney/Val in the form of a hoof. Moyes changing to 4-4-2 so early only fuelled this and I was surprised he didn't put Fellaini on instead of Hernandez for Welbeck to complete the Everton-esque style.
What you are saying is in no way related to what actually happened in the game yesterday. Cleverley and Jones were on the ball more than any other players on the pitch and Cleverley passed the ball into, or within, the final third 24 times.The_Kew_Tour wrote: »I said it last week too, but days like today prove Carricks worth to the team
Could you answer me this honestly: Was yesterday's performance or result very much different from what we have been producing all season?
As far as I can see it is the exact same as what we have been seeing consistently this season, where Carrick has played a lot. Slow and rigid build up play, plenty of passes but no incision, creating lots of opportunities for wide players who can't cross, all leading to a disappointing result.
Now please show me the games where Michael Carrick has made us play better than we did yesterday.0 -
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It's the same for all the players. They all have the same types of passes included and are treated in the same way for those passing charts. 1. You and others have claimed that Cleverley stood out yesterday as not up to the standard. Yet he had the second highest number of passes on the pitch (1 behind Jones), with the most forward and the most in the final third of any midfielder on either team.
If that chart shows that Cleverley is very limited then the other charts show that Sandro, Dembele and Paulinho are completely incapable.
No he does not. He passes at least as well, often better, than the rest of them 2. while also making a reasonable number of tackles, interceptions and blocks and taking up decent defensive positions.
Show me specific examples of where his pace, strength or concentration weren't up to standard. Tell me when exactly they happened in the game and I will look at them. I'm not saying that he has been playing brilliantly, far from it, but he has been playing at a similar level to the rest of our midfield this season.
Cleverley is in the correct position in that picture. He is covering behind Jones who is in line with the player with the ball and the goal. That's where he should be. 3. Where do you want him to be?
When the ball gets played to Sandro Cleverley did not rush in like a headless chicken. The problem was after Sandro put in his turn Clev bought it too much and ended up getting turned again. It still required a screamer from Sandro out of nowhere to score. 99 times out of 100 he doesn't score that goal and the slip from the defending midfielder goes unpunished.
Playing short and simple passes is not an issue. All good CMs do it. And calling him a defensive liability is complete nonsense.
1. I agree that he has been on par with our other midfielders this season in terms of passing stats but that is not the only criteria they need to be judged on, also Carrick & Fellaini are not in great form. Cleverly always has a high % of completed passes per match. On Avg after 10 matches this season his pass completion rate is 88% compared to Carricks 86% and Fellaini's 87% (after 7 matches) so he is on par for one stat.
But a pass completion stat does not tell the whole story for a MF player. He had the most forward passes in the final third you say. With the ball in the final third he created zero chances for the team. This is the problem with Clev, he works hard and grafts and is careful with his passes but is a player who gets the ball to someone who can create rather than do it himself. Carrick would cause more damage with his 86%.
2. I don't know where you are getting this stat from, he made two tackles, two interceptions, one clearance and he took on players twice and was successful once.
If you view Cleverly as a player to simply give the ball to someone who can create for us then I guess he is fine but I would also say its a low expectation to have of our midfield. We used to have Scholes, Keane and Veron in there. Carrick and Hargreaves have a good creative side also and could mix it with that company, Clev not so much.
I'm not just focusing on yesterdays match, its important to have a bigger sample size. If we compare him to Carrick this season, because they have both played 10 matches for us thus far, over the 10 game period Carrick on avg has created 12 chances compared to Clev's 6, Carrick avg's 7 defensive actions to Clev's 2.
3. He should have been closer, there is no case to make here for Clev. He rushes in because he let his man have too much space. You say Sandro turned him because Clev bought the turn, as someone who has played a decent amount of football in his youth the easiest player to turn is the one rushing at you rather then the one trying to contain you. Clev should have been closer and held a line until Sandro made his move and would not have been turned. Clev rushed in and had to halt and restart his momentum in the opposite direction giving Sandro a headstart because of this he needs to rush after Sandro a second time and when Sandro turns again Clev must halt his momentum and go in a different direction a second time, he almost slips because of it and was playing catch up in that exchange from the start because he let Sandro have too much space. Al Sandro's momentum is in the same direction, Clev has to shift and adjust his twice because of poor positioning.
Yes 99 times out of hundred it might not fly into the top corner but its not an excuse to make for a player. "Its not too bad he lets his man beat him twice and get a shot off its ok because from that range they don't generally go in." They will go close or be pushed out by the keeper and are open for rebounds. This was that one time out of 99 and a key moment.
How many other times has he let players away? It was poor decision making, strenght and concentration. I see Vidic and other players rush in only to halt their run correctly the closer to the target they get and they don't buy the turn as easily.
You have asked for other examples, I don't have a list of examples or times in a match they happened but I see Clev scampering after players that have turned him quite a bit. There is a reason why I and others have said this about him, its because it happens when he is out there and all these pre match passing stats don't reflect how off the pace he can be at times.
Looking at all three of our MF's over a larger period of time its Clev who still sticks out for me. As a whole he is below Carrick who offers more defensively and creatively. Fellaini is not doing it for us right now but has done in the past. With Clev I have never seen a consistent level of quality near Carricks overall level. I was excited for him when he burst onto the scene but I haven't see enough quality in his game to want him in the squad. He keeps it basic and can be defensively slack and has had trouble seeing out 90 mins before, this imo is from him getting turned or not being close enough to where he should be during a game and having to cover more ground.
This is the impression I have of him after watching almost all of his matches, yes he works hard and can play better than yesterday but overall he doesn't cut the mustard. I don't have stats for this so you can take my word or not but a lot of fans don't rate him highly for a reason.0 -
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fh6ZDBcWtSk
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