Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14 Mod warning post #718

MagicMarker

So is the game on TV tomorrow night or what?

Your Airbag

Pro. F wrote: »

The line is not supposed to be horizontal across the pitch, it's meant to be diagonal back deep with respect to the ball, except for the guy on the opposite wing (Kagawa in this case) who holds a bit higher.

If Cleverley was in front of Jones then Jones would have no cover.

The main threat is not Sandro, it's the player with the ball.

The player with the ball was covered, Sandro was not, he is the threat. Given what happened thereafter this has been proven to be true, your understanding of what happened is well off.

Given we know what happened would you not have Cleverly adjust anything in that situation?

Also if you watch that gif closely Clev is not maintaining a line. Jones has his back to him and starts from behind and goes forward before just settling where Clev happens to be, he cant see clev, who then steps back. Your giving him credit for something he doesn't even do.

kryogen

MagicMarker wrote: »

So is the game on TV tomorrow night or what?

Its not, streams or foreign neighbours are your only way of watching it

Technophobe

F.J. wrote: »

Anyone hear it mentioned that Moyes prefers Smalling to Rafael at right back?

If this is true, then not a good sign...

sea_monkey

nice lad morrison

Rayne Wooney

How many men would react the same in a similar situation, a lot I'm sure.

Your Airbag

Pro. F wrote: »

So are you changing your tack back again and now saying that he wasn't on the same level as Spurs' midfielders?

I'll make the point again, hopefully you take it onboard.

No I'm not changing, I said his defensive work was on par with them based on the tackling stats you posted. I never said his entire play was as you tired to make it out I backtracked.

Also I have said it more than once that stats collected and posted here are no comparison for watching the game (you said you agreed but continue to mention forward passing stats/arrows etc but get upset when i do) and seeing the players as lots of stuff they do isn't reflected in any stats, you want an example of this?

Sandro took on a player in MF. He got a shot off and it led to a goal. Do you post this stat? No. Lets say the shot didn't go in, its shows attacking intent and ability to get forward, Clev didn't show this at all, once.

Clev faced with Sandro would have played the ball to the wing or back to defense, another plus for his forward passing arrows or % rate, a big tick in the no box for quality in my book. Is this that hard for you to understand? This point has been made umpteen times.

Sometimes taking those risks in a match pay off and only need to once, Sandro tried and got a shot off. Good attacking play from Sandro. Clev didn't try this, not once, bad attacking showing from Clev, don't give me some Moyes system excuse, if the player has the ability to try this he will. Look at Januzaj, he would try it in a heartbeat.

When faced with this opposition attacking play what happened to Clev? He got twisted and lost, bad defensive play, where in your stats was this? Are you not seeing this limitations that Clev displayed and Sandro didn't? You think they were on a par overall?

Do you still think Clev is world class?

yabadabado

sea_monkey wrote: »

nice lad morrison

Morrison reacted because the Palace players started pushing and shoving at the final whistle ,all over a player being hit in the back with the ball.

sea_monkey

he better not get suspended for it, hes in my FF

yabadabado

sea_monkey wrote: »

he better not get suspended for it, hes in my FF

ref booked him for it.

Al Capwned

He's lucky not to see red for that to be fair.

Sure ya can't be doing that Miley.

tallaghtmick

Where do you guys get the energy to post those long ass posts :pac:

onemorechance

...
"What is important for Marouane now is to play well in a match we win and he scores a goal," Neville told the Manchester Evening News.

"He needs to experience that feeling when you are part of a team that wins.

"It is fine having that feeling when you are part of a squad but it is great to have it when you are part of a team that wins.

"He (also) needs to start scoring from midfield. There is nobody better at that than Felli.

"The United fans have not seen the best of him. When he came he wasn't fully match fit but we are getting him fitter to play for United and be that box-to-box player.

"But we have every faith in him and we are really relaxed about it."

MEN via Sky Sports

The_Kew_Tour

Fellaini needs to be given a bit of space.

The man has only been at club 3 months.

I have been as disappointed as any with his start, but he is much better then this.

Al Capwned

Yeah I agree, someone posted recently that he is a player playing poorly, rather than a poor player or words to that effect.
Spot on, imo.

GSPfan

Fellaini should cut his hair. Just sayin!

Pro. F

Your Airbag wrote: »

The player with the ball was covered, Sandro was not, he is the threat. Given what happened thereafter this has been proven to be true, your understanding of what happened is well off.

Given we know what happened would you not have Cleverly adjust anything in that situation?

Also if you watch that gif closely Clev is not maintaining a line. Jones has his back to him and starts from behind and goes forward before just settling where Clev happens to be, he cant see clev, who then steps back. Your giving him credit for something he doesn't even do.

The Spurs player with the ball was marked, the marking United players needed cover. You are confusing how the word "cover" is used in football tactics. The word "cover" is used to refer to a player getting behind his team mate who is marking the man with the ball. This cover is provided to make sure that if the marking team mate gets rounded that there will be somebody ready to meet the opposition player in possession.

The Spurs player in possession was being marked by Jones and Rooney. Jones is the player between the man with the ball and the goal - whereas Rooney was up field of the ball - so Jones is the one who needs to have cover behind him. It is the job of the next midfielder along (Cleverley in this case) to provide that cover. That Cover is provided in a diagonally retreating line, not a horizontal line across the pitch like you suggest.

That's how the zonal defensive shape works. That cover, diagonally behind the fist defending player facing the opponent with the ball, is a fundamental principle of defensive tactics in football. It is nearly always one of the first things outlined in any book or video on defensive organisation.

But you want Cleverley to have left that space (on the diagonal line back from Jones) and gone nearer to Sandro. That is man marking. That is a completely different system. Man marking systems like that are very rare in top level football these days. It is most definitely not the system United use.

At the start of the clip Cleverley stands still as Jones is stepping up into his position to mark the man with the ball. Cleverley doesn't need to move to get into the right position for that first bit. That doesn't mean that he isn't assessing where he should be, it just shows that he didn't have to move to get into the correct position at first. Jones didn't need to look at Cleverley, he wouldn't be taking his position off Cleverley. It's supposed to happen the other way around, Cleverley should take his position off Jones, which he did. Then as Jones steps back a bit, as the man with the ball advances towards the goal line a step or two, Cleverly takes a mirroring step or two back to keep the cover line.

All zonal defensive schemes (whether pure or mixed) are predicated on the idea that the man with the ball is the primary threat. The team shape is arranged to mark the man with the ball and to cover the markers while keeping an eye on the other opposition players. Cleverley was in the exact right position following those standard tactics. He was the first cover man in the first line of cover (not like Kag who was the second man, or the defenders in the next line), so his job was to provide immediate cover, not move off to get nearer to somebody else standing stationary up the field.

In answer to your question, no I would not change anything about Cleverley's position covering behind Jones when the ball was out wide.

Rayne Wooney

I think it's a given we'll sign player(s) in January but who will they be?

Jose's comments recently, saying he definitely won't be signing a striker and will persist with Ba, Torres, and Eto'o, lead me to believe that he's definitely going to be in for a big name striker, Jose is always one for the mind games. Then Arsenal are being linked with big name strikers as well and I'm sure Wenger knows if he adds to his current team next month it will probably be his best chance to win the league. City could go out and spend 100m. Liverpool looking like getting some really decent players.

If I had to say now I'm guessing there's definitely a LB coming in, maybe Baines, then I'm not sure.

No way will the club pay anywhere near Ander's pricetag so he's probably ruled out, maybe a 0.001% chance of a big signing like Pjanic or Koke.

TheDoc

Pro. F wrote: »

No, that is not what happened. He was not touted as a hero and saviour. I and some others said he had done enough to be given a chance. And then I derided you for saying something like you would need to watch him play another 30 games before you could say whether he was a good player or not.

I also seem to remember you, about half way through last season, saying that you had finally decided and that you thought he was really good player.

I don't remember specifically who said what, so don't act like I'm singuling anyone out, I'm not.

But there was plenty of people ranting and raving, and when I made comments to maybe hold of and we see what happens over the course of a season, I was shot down.

And I don't think I made that judgement on Cleverly, I've been in the "unconvinced"camp from the start, possibly some flashes that have made me think and hope for something different, but I see him as a terrier in the middle, nothing more, nothing less.

TheDoc

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

I think it's a given we'll sign player(s) in January but who will they be?

Jose's comments recently, saying he definitely won't be signing a striker and will persist with Ba, Torres, and Eto'o, lead me to believe that he's definitely going to be in for a big name striker, Jose is always one for the mind games. Then Arsenal are being linked with big name strikers as well and I'm sure Wenger knows if he adds to his current team next month it will probably be his best chance to win the league. City could go out and spend 100m. Liverpool looking like getting some really decent players.

If I had to say now I'm guessing there's definitely a LB coming in, maybe Baines, then I'm not sure.

No way will the club pay anywhere near Ander's pricetag so he's probably ruled out, maybe a 0.001% chance of a big signing like Pjanic or Koke.

I'd imagine there will be some activity, not sure on a signing. I think the guys learned during the summer business needs to be conducted well, and just because we spunk big bucks on a player doesn't mean it will go down well.

I'd imagine we will test some peoples resolve with bids, but hopefully land something of note.

I've been reading some really interesting stuff about Moyes this week, and his fondness of wingbacks. I'd hope that we maybe give Buttner a chance. I love his physicality and attitude, he has good feet and good pace. Failing that, I'd rather we went in for Contrao then Baines. He would be cheaper, and in another lifetime would be one of the finest left wingers in Europe... in my humble opinion

Pro. F

Your Airbag wrote: »

I'll make the point again, hopefully you take it onboard.

No I'm not changing, I said his defensive work was on par with them based on the tackling stats you posted. I never said his entire play was as you tired to make it out I backtracked.

Also I have said it more than once that stats collected and posted here are no comparison for watching the game (you said you agreed but continue to mention forward passing stats/arrows etc but get upset when i do) and seeing the players as lots of stuff they do isn't reflected in any stats, you want an example of this?

Sandro took on a player in MF. He got a shot off and it led to a goal. Do you post this stat? No. Lets say the shot didn't go in, its shows attacking intent and ability to get forward, Clev didn't show this at all, once.

Clev faced with Sandro would have played the ball to the wing or back to defense, another plus for his forward passing arrows or % rate, a big tick in the no box for quality in my book. Is this that hard for you to understand? This point has been made umpteen times.

Sometimes taking those risks in a match pay off and only need to once, Sandro tried and got a shot off. Good attacking play from Sandro. Clev didn't try this, not once, bad attacking showing from Clev, don't give me some Moyes system excuse, if the player has the ability to try this he will. Look at Januzaj, he would try it in a heartbeat.

When faced with this opposition attacking play what happened to Clev? He got twisted and lost, bad defensive play, where in your stats was this? Are you not seeing this limitations that Clev displayed and Sandro didn't? You think they were on a par overall?

I am not "getting upset" when you mention stats, I am calling you out on repeatedly ignoring the number of forward passes and passes in the attacking third stats. Even though I have brought them up many times you ignore them constantly, talk about how stats can't show everything and then go on with your argument, referring to stats that you think prove your point.

Yes Sandro, with his willingness to carry the ball forward and shoot, was more incisive than Cleverley yesterday in that particular bit of play. Cleverley did not match that bit of play with anything similar himself. As I've said before, that cutting edge is the bit of Cleverley's game that is currently most lacking. But, on the flip side of that, Cleverley was much more involved in his team's possession of the ball than Sandro was.

Cleverley kept the ball moving and linked up most of what United did when in possession. Whereas Sandro was fairly anonymous when Spurs were in possession and actually got on the ball very little. Yes Sandro had one excellent bit of play, but overall he was fairly anonymous when Spurs were in possession.

Januzaj is a much more attacking player who plays a different position. No point comparing them.

Your Airbag wrote: »

Do you still think Clev is world class?

I used to think he was world class for his age. I don't now, but I do still have hope for him to become a decent level of creative central midfielder.

Pro. F

TheDoc wrote: »

I don't remember specifically who said what, so don't act like I'm singuling anyone out, I'm not.

But there was plenty of people ranting and raving, and when I made comments to maybe hold of and we see what happens over the course of a season, I was shot down.

And I don't think I made that judgement on Cleverly, I've been in the "unconvinced"camp from the start, possibly some flashes that have made me think and hope for something different, but I see him as a terrier in the middle, nothing more, nothing less.

I didn't think you were singling me out.

Here's some things that you said about Cleverley in the middle of last season. I remember noticing them, because I remember that you wouldn't commit either way at first and then eventually did.

But lads, all I'm going to see. is Tom Cleverly, is making me believe.

I believe in Tom Cleverly, not only is his energy freeing up Carrick to play sensational balls, his interplay and his distribution is quality.

Both himself and Kagawa constantly come TOWARDS a team mate to receive the ball, and some of the play today was fantastic.

Bit ropey the last 15-20 minutes, but a good win.... and its turned me into a Cleverly fan

link

*And I'd like to publicly acknowledge I'm fully behind Cleverly now. Doubts at the start of the season were over how he would fair this year. And I wasn't convinced by the fact he couldn't start the first half of the campaign. But it might well have been SAF holding him for the business end. His industry, willingness to come receive the ball and he downright tenacity have me a firm favourite now. His celebrations for goals ( you spot him in the background) also shows how much the club means to him.

link

I don't think you can honestly describe that as being in the "unconvinced camp".

Nalz

GSPfan wrote: »

Fellaini should cut his hair. Just sayin!

No he should not, just sayin!!

kippy

Pro. F wrote: »

I didn't think you were singling me out.

Here's some things that you said about Cleverley in the middle of last season. I remember noticing them, because I remember that you wouldn't commit either way at first and then eventually did.


link


link

I don't think you can honestly describe that as being in the "unconvinced camp".

Ive often wondered if one were to go back over the history of a posters posts would there be any consistency whatsoever. You'll generally find there's not. I change my opinions on players an items of interest all the time as generally things change over time.
Fans are fickle by nature. In todays world of constant sports coverage and discussion opinions can be moulded and changed depending on your reading off all that coverage.
There are a lot of people on here,myself included, who have flip floped in our opinions on players over the years. I could name possibly the whole united squad as examples.....carrick....rooney...nani....even ronaldo....
Ultimately there are people with far more experience, access to these players, and getting paid significent sums of money who makes the ongoing calls on the merits of playing certain players in certain situations. They have to be trusted.......

bullvine

GSPfan wrote: »

Fellaini should cut his hair. Just sayin!

I actually agree with this.. Remember the Argie manager didnt bring Redondo to WC cause he wouldnt cut his hair

homerjay2005

One problem for Cleverlys is he is as light as a feather. he stood beside me in the away end on day and there is nothing to him. he needs to bulk up and toughen up.

he is a good footballer and i dont mind seeing him in the team, i think our football is better when he plays. we still need to sign two top class players though!

newballsplease

Heading to the match tonight. Cant wait!

IamtheWalrus

homerjay2005 wrote: »

he stood beside me in the away end on day

Thinly veiled I stood next to Clevs post.

Cantona's Collars

Feck the begrudgers who said I jinxed us with Sunday's match thread,I put up one for tonight's game.

Corvo

newballsplease wrote: »

Heading to the match tonight. Cant wait!

Same. In airport now. Who's having a beer?

Cantona's Collars

Corvo wrote: »

Same. In airport now. Who's having a beer?

The pilot.

sReq | uTeK

Pro. F wrote: »

The line is not supposed to be horizontal across the pitch, it's meant to be diagonal back deep with respect to the ball, except for the guy on the opposite wing (Kagawa in this case) who holds a bit higher.

If Cleverley was in front of Jones then Jones would have no cover.

The main threat is not Sandro, it's the player with the ball.

Haha, you're ****ting me right ? the player with the ball out on the touchline with 3 untied players around him is the threat ? as apposed to the player sitting 30 yard from goal with a direct route unmarked is not the threat? ROFL.

Cleverly ran in like a headless chicken, got the wrong side of Sandro and got turned twice, he should have jockeyed Sandro, there was no need to dive in and he should have shown him onto his left side to come back out left where united had an abundance of players over that side of the pitch.

It's closing down 101, Cleverly had a GREAT starting point however everything that happened after he took that initial step was ****ing horrible, how you can't see that is beyond me and I think that's the point people are trying to get across.

Tom Cleverly is not the worst player in the world, he retains possession and is generally good under pressure it's his inability to open up a defence that people get frustrated with, that added with the fact he's not the best defensibly nor is he physically demanding and what do you have? an Okay player who will keep it with no ultimate end product. When a 40 year old veteran comes on the pitch for 15 minutes and has more creation in that time than cleverly has all season that really tells it's tale. Cleverly would be a good player in a 3 man midfield where one is is a DM and the other a Creative presence, in a 2 man midfield he offers very very little.


He's a good squad player but my god there is better 1st team players out there that would do his Job and 100 times more.

kryogen

Going to a gig tonight in the Olympia so will miss the match regardless but does anyone know any pubs in that area (Temple Bar) that might have the coverage? Or will there be highlights on Sky?

PaddyCar

MOTD is on tonight at 10.30

kryogen

PaddyCar wrote: »

MOTD is on tonight at 10.30

Is Match choice on sky though? I assume it is, I can get the missus to tape that for me at least if it is

Corvo

zerks wrote: »

The pilot.

Denzel?

homerjay2005

Corvo wrote: »

Same. In airport now. Who's having a beer?

im not flying until 18.00, theres a few others from here on that flight also.

means we can work away normally, head to the airport and should be ground about 7.40 all going well. back in the morning for 9.

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

Thinly veiled I stood next to Clevs post.

he stood next to me

Mitch Connor

homerjay2005 wrote: »

he stood next to me

did he pass you the ball?

homerjay2005

Mitch Connor wrote: »

did he pass you the ball?

now and then, but he liked to pass to the lads who were in the rows behind us a bit more....

DM_7

homerjay2005 wrote: »

One problem for Cleverlys is he is as light as a feather. he stood beside me in the away end on day and there is nothing to him. he needs to bulk up and toughen up.

he is a good footballer and i dont mind seeing him in the team, i think our football is better when he plays. we still need to sign two top class players though!

I agree his power is an issue and he needs to be stronger. On the plus side he has improved his stamina since last season. He was an important player last season and I think some people are overlooking that.

It would be good to see him more expansive in his play but I think that is a tactical issue rather than a problem with the player.

When he gets used to the new system and doesn't have to think about as much I think he will start to do things he sees rather than only robot like following of instructions from the coaches.

He is not the only player that has the same issue there when it come to United's play and can be seen in the chalk cheese nature of performances.

Backstreet Moyes

I don't know whether he is slow on the ball or his awareness his awful but he puts himself under pressure so much. On Sunday he recieved the ball a good few times dwelled on it and had to rush away the ball at the last second because a player was putting him under pressure from behind. He will be no more than an average squad player but i hate seeing him in the starting 11. He offers very little going forward and is not great defensively either. He is honest and hard working and does the simple things ok but is a lower premier player standard. I thought he could become a good player and be a late developer but it hasn't happened. He has regressed if anything. I have no problem keeping him around but he is not United quality even considering how poor the midfield is.

Also on somebody saying Carrick is not creative needs to think back a few years. Fergie signed him because of his performances playing further forward for Spurs where he was performing well. Fergie moulded him into the player he currently is which he is even better at and has become such an important player. He is given a role now to break play up keep things simple and stay back. Carrick both going forward and defensively is streets ahead of Cleverley and a far superior player.

magnumbud

not sure if people have seen it or not but setanta sports pack is only a euro for december for those of ye who do not have it. seems united have a couple of games on it too for that time

Devil08

magnumbud wrote: »

not sure if people have seen it or not but setanta sports pack is only a euro for december for those of ye who do not have it. seems united have a couple of games on it too for that time

Sky customers only

Pro. F

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

Haha, you're ****ting me right ? the player with the ball out on the touchline with 3 untied players around him is the threat ? as apposed to the player sitting 30 yard from goal with a direct route unmarked is not the threat? ROFL.

Cleverly ran in like a headless chicken, got the wrong side of Sandro and got turned twice, he should have jockeyed Sandro, there was no need to dive in and he should have shown him onto his left side to come back out left where united had an abundance of players over that side of the pitch.

It's closing down 101, Cleverly had a GREAT starting point however everything that happened after he took that initial step was ****ing horrible, how you can't see that is beyond me and I think that's the point people are trying to get across.

If you think that Cleverley's starting position was GREAT then you agree that the player with the ball was the main threat. The primary purpose of Cleverley's starting position, the way zonal defensive shape works, is to make the player with the ball be facing the most number of opponents, because they are the main threat.

Clev did not rush in like a headless chicken. You can see in the gif that he slows down as he gets closer. The problem was after that he was too casual and got turned, then Jones wasn't in position to cover and Sandro did his thing.

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

Tom Cleverly is not the worst player in the world, he retains possession and is generally good under pressure it's his inability to open up a defence that people get frustrated with, that added with the fact he's not the best defensibly nor is he physically demanding and what do you have? an Okay player who will keep it with no ultimate end product. When a 40 year old veteran comes on the pitch for 15 minutes and has more creation in that time than cleverly has all season that really tells it's tale. Cleverly would be a good player in a 3 man midfield where one is is a DM and the other a Creative presence, in a 2 man midfield he offers very very little.


He's a good squad player but my god there is better 1st team players out there that would do his Job and 100 times more.

If people were saying the same as you, that Cleverley is an okay player, or a good squad player with limitations, then I wouldn't be bothered. I agree that his lack of cutting edge is a problem, he needs to fix that and I have said as much. I think he can be more than just an okay player if things go right for him, but I wouldn't start a debate with someone just now if they thought he wouldn't ever be more than just a good squad player.

The reason I am arguing with people about Cleverley on here is only because I am defending him against absurd and unfair abuse. People are saying things like: Cleverley only made 4 forward passes on Sunday; that 2 tackles, 2 interceptions and a clearance is not good enough for a CM; that he wasn't involved in the possession at all and that the defence hoofed it to the forwards all day; that he was the one player who stood out on Sunday as being out of his depth; that his defensive positioning was wrong before Sandro received the ball for the goal. Nonsense like that is not the same as saying he is a good squad player but lacks cutting edge. It's group hysteria and venting of frustration at an arbitrary target.

Mars Bar

newballsplease wrote: »

Heading to the match tonight. Cant wait!

Me too

brinty

We still going on about Cleverley - yawn......

Been done to death this....

Anyways Matchday lads, c'mon lets be upbeat...are we gonna stick it too the Toffee's???

Lord TSC

Am dreading tonight tbh. Just feel the headlines write themselves....

Nalz

Has anyone got a link to a better similar but better site than www.livesportontv.com ?

brinty wrote: »

We still going on about Cleverley - yawn......

What's worse is the one scenario (Sandro's goal) is gone into serious overkill mode. Ridiculous to single it out, dissect it to death frame by frame and step by step.

KH25

Iwant to look at the team tonight and see an attacking lineup. Im tired of seeing the team line up to be hard to beat or to neutralize players of the other team. With the players we have we should be more than capable of defending well and comprehensively winning the game.

No offence at all to Everton, they are a good team, but when your team has the likes of Kagawa, RVP, Rooney and Nani in it, you should be able to win the game and kill it off.

bullvine

KH25 wrote: »

Iwant to look at the team tonight and see an attacking lineup. Im tired of seeing the team line up to be hard to beat or to neutralize players of the other team. With the players we have we should be more than capable of defending well and comprehensively winning the game.

No offence at all to Everton, they are a good team, but when your team has the likes of Kagawa, RVP, Rooney and Nani in it, you should be able to win the game and kill it off.

If Welbeck plays any part in this game, United wont get 3 points.