Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14 Mod warning post #718

TheDoc

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Again I ask, why should I believe he has the ability to learn if given that time?

There is about two managers in world football that could walk into Old Trafford and pickup where Fergie left off, and both of them weren't available.

This isn't a short term project, I'll be disgusted if Moyes doesn't get a few seasons atleast.

I fully appreciate that it's tough to deal with the results and performances, no one is questioning that. But there has to be a chance given, there has to be some breathing room.

Sure you will ask what history has Moyes got or how do we know he will learn, look you just have to take a ****ing punt and have a bit of faith. I keep saying, it's the toughest job in football that opened up this summer. And the decision wouldn't have been taken lightly by the club to appoint someone, who they didn't feel would be able to keep the club at the pinnacle.

We have had barren spells before, we have lost titles before, and we have come back from it. As much as it would hurt, sure, I think I can accept not winning the title this year. I think I can accept struggling through.

But throughout the clubs recent history when we lose a title, the manager gets the backing to put together a title winning side. As the season wears on I think we are seeing that alot of last season was down to

• City and Chelsea being absolutely atrocious
• United having a bit extra in their teeth from the previous seasons failings
• SAF working his magic

Our squad is definitely not as good as last season made out. But at the same time, its good enough to beat a lot of teams in the league. I'm sure Moyes will make decisions in January, and end of season. Players that SAF valued, maybe Moyes doesn't and vice versa.

From the summer we KNOW that Moyes has identified he needs to strengthen the CM area, from bids that he and the club placed. This is something SAF overlooked for years.

• Settle on a front four that is fluid, works, and is devastating.
• Transition/phase out Vidic and Ferdinand, introduce Smalling/Jones alongside Evans.
• Transition Evra out for Buttner, or new left back.
• Introduce a new dynamic, combative midfield.
• Introduce more tangible formations to the squad.

I think the above are my thoughts on what needs doing to ensure this squad can mount serious challenges, and I think Moyes can do it. Feel it's a confidence thing. And in fairness, who wouldn't be intimidated and timid coming into Old Trafford following on from Sir Alex. But he just needs something to give him the belief he was picked for a reason, and to start believing in himself.

We don't need to understand or like the decisions or choices, they just need to get results. I hope he makes a big decision soon that we all go mad over, but get's a result and works. He needs something to give him confidence that he is the Man United manager, and was put there for a reason.

amber69

niallo27 wrote: »

Ah it's not that bad.

As a Liverpool fan id agree it's not that bad. But when we were looking for a manager I didn't want him. I think that says it all.

bullvine

I'd like to see this team on Sat, wont happen though

Rafael, Smaling, Vidic, Evra
Nani, Anderson, Fellani, Young,
Kagawa
Chico

DrumSteve

amber69 wrote: »

As a Liverpool fan id agree it's not that bad. But when we were looking for a manager I didn't want him. I think that says it all.

Ah It's not as bad but it reminds me of it; A manager well out of his depth making the wrong decisions and saying all the wrong things.

RasTa

Yup when everton scored I've never seen so many fans leave ot. Even from the stretford end. Atmosphere was dead thanks to the steward's telling everyone to sit down from kick off.

Also as I mentioned the real reason for the dip in pl form is zerks starting match threads

Brien

Mitch Connor wrote: »

What manager though?

We have missed the boat with Jose and Pep.

I would imagine Klopp would be top of the wanted list, but getting him would be another matter I suppose.

After those 3, I would struggle for a standout candidate.

I imagine we'd then need to be looking at up and coming managers with a style of play we want - Laudrup, Pochettino maybe? At least they want to play attacking football.

I know that real football fans love Klopp (its his gordon strachanesque interviews that do it for me) and hipsters love anything from dortmund, but are there any concerns with taking a manager with lower league experiance (Mainz) and one good run in the top league (dortmund). If he struggled to adjust to the english league(ok that doesnt apply to moyes), maybe taking a full 5 months to adjust to everything MUFC, and being maybe a full 12 points off the leaders, would everyone be calling for his head???

I would like to see Moyes getting untill this time next year, before even considering a change of manager. If Pep was available I might think differently but thats pretty much the only exception.

TheDoc

tallaghtmick wrote: »

A few posters over the last few months, I'm in work so don't have the time to go back but if you look back over the last day you should see it mentioned once or twice, Also I seen one rather annoyed poster tell another to "go support the team in Blue"

Yeah that was me. And this morning I trawled back through the threads to find that, and send an apology to that poster via PM. While I stand by alot of stuff I said last night and this morning, that was a throw away comment at the time, but was bang out of order on reflection.

It was an angry reaction to calls for Moyes to leave after last nights result, and in fairness going by the amount of thanks some of my posts have gotten, I'm not alone.

At the end of it, we all want the same thing, successful club, happy club, competitive club. I think we just have different views on how we are going to go about doing it.

In fairness there is strong arguements as to why Moyes was a wrong appointment, and I don't overly disagree, but I do strongly disagree that parting ways with him now, is anything but a kneejerk moronic decision, that will put progress back further.

There needs to be some breathing space and , not so much rebuilding, but just taking stock, now that fergie has gone. There is still a circus around him, cameras pan on him every match, his book. I'd imagine it's pretty hard for Moyes, even though Ferguson has not really made comment or got involved, it's still a looming shadow to navigate. Everything you do immediately compared to the previous manager.

I'm just advocating there is alot to take onboard and adjust to for a new manager, any manager. It's all well and good touting for Mourinho, Pep, Klopp and just about anyone, nobody knows how they will get on, they didn't get picked. Moyes did.

I guess I'm just in that mindframe that there was some detailed analysis and thought put into the successor, and that it wasn't something done based on "him being scottish" or some tripe like that.

jonnyfingers

RasTa wrote: »

Yup when everton scored I've never seen so many fans leave ot. Even from the stretford end. Atmosphere was dead thanks to the steward's telling everyone to sit down from kick off.

That was an absolute disgrace. It just shows how some fans have been spoiled with our constant success over the last few decades. We lost 1-0 in a game where we could have easily won 1-0. If fans are leaving for that then they need to have a long hard look at themselves. How about getting behind the team, creating a bit of atmosphere and pushing the team on to get some good results.

TheDoc

Brien wrote: »

I know that real football fans love Klopp (its his gordon strachanesque interviews that do it for me) and hipsters love anything from dortmund, but are there any concerns with taking a manager with lower league experiance (Mainz) and one good run in the top league (dortmund). If he struggled to adjust to the english league(ok that doesnt apply to moyes), maybe taking a full 5 months to adjust to everything MUFC, and being maybe a full 12 points off the leaders, would everyone be calling for his head???

I would like to see Moyes getting untill this time next year, before even considering a change of manager. If Pep was available I might think differently but thats pretty much the only exception.

I think thats good logic. If I am honest, I wasn't sure how Pep would fare out. There was good arguements that he was being made look alot better then he was with that Barcalona team, but am more then happy to put my hands up and say no, he clearly is a top manager that can manage big teams and players.

I'd maybe extend the period slightly more. He ha slike a 5/6 year contract right? I think three seasons in charge is a good measure. Seriously...the first one is to get settled, to adjust and just deal with the step up.

Season two is to start forming the squad via transfers and training and settling into a style of play. Third season to really mount something serious. I'd imagine this can still happen next seaosn, and I'm not totally writing of this season, but it's becoming less likely as the weeks go on.

I just hope they have learned fast from the summer transfer window or how to navigate it, and that they are identifying targets on an ongoing basis, and when windows open we get the business done early. I can understand the difficulty adapting, at Everton it was a case of selling someone to buy, or waiting on a last day fax or email outlining loan chances and the likes.

Dicky Pride

bullvine wrote: »

I'd like to see this team on Sat, wont happen though

Rafael, Smaling, Vidic, Evra
Nani, Anderson, Fellani, Young,
Kagawa
Chico

Are you insane?

bullvine

Dicky Pride wrote: »

Are you insane?

Yes. I am insane.. Who would you play?

Mitch Connor

bullvine wrote: »

Yes. I am insane.. Who would you play?

A keeper for a start.... ;-D

---

De Gea
Raf--Vidic--Evans--Evra

---

Jones--Fellaini
Nani----Kagawa---Januzaj

---

Hernandez

Julez

jonnyfingers wrote: »

That was an absolute disgrace. It just shows how some fans have been spoiled with our constant success over the last few decades. We lost 1-0 in a game where we could have easily won 1-0. If fans are leaving for that then they need to have a long hard look at themselves. How about getting behind the team, creating a bit of atmosphere and pushing the team on to get some good results.

Something I'd never do is leave a game before full time, no matter what the score. I met some Irish lads on the plane a few years ago who left OT early when we were playing City and missed Michael Owens injury time winner.

Anyway with regards to Moyes and our results, I think most of us will agree it would be somewhat easier to stomach if we were playing any kind of decent football. We are just so bland and boring, we don't look like scoring often and we only create a couple of clear cut chances each game. And we always look like conceeding. Last night after 80 mins 1-0 down there didn't sem to be any kind of Manchester United desire to get back into the game, under Fergie the team always felt like they could pull a goal or two back, not now; the team and fans knew that nothing was coming.

SlickRic

DrumSteve wrote: »

I must admit, as a pool fan, watching united at the moment reminds me of when Hodgson was with us.

yup, it's not far off.

i think confidence is a big thing, and this Utd team has very little of it right now. the worrying thing for Utd fans should be, as has been pointed out, the lack of cohesion in attack. i know the loss of RVP is a big deal on that front, but i've never seen Utd play so many hopeful balls into the box in a long, long time.

also, another problem is nobody would've thought Fellaini would be so poor. slow, ponderous and negative.

bullvine

Mitch Connor wrote: »

A keeper for a start.... ;-D

---

De Gea
Raf--Vidic--Evans--Evra

---

Jones--Fellaini
Nani----Kagawa---Januzaj

---

Hernandez

I'd be happy with that, I forgot Jones was available. I think with Jones and Fellani in the middle, we need to go with two out and out wingers to get the service to Chico

tallaghtmick

jonnyfingers wrote: »

There are a few things we can see from the outside.

1. I think he has handled the Rooney situation from the summer very well and Rooney has been by far our best player.

2. He has identified areas of the squad that need improvement, but unfortunately has not been able to address that properly yet. As I've said previously I'm not sure how much blame I can put on him for that yet, lets see what happens in January.

3. He has eased Januzaj into the team, rather than either not playing him at all, or playing him every game.

4. We've gotten out of our group in the Champions League, and have look fairly comfortable.


There may me many positives behind the scenes that we can't see from the outside. We've all probably read the article about how meticulous Moyes is in analysing teams and player performance, and how he identifies transfer targets. That's a long term strategy and it's way too soon to see any benefit of that.

We can't see how training and youth development are going, but there may be some positives there.

I agree that not playing Zaha is strange, but maybe Moyes feels he's not ready yet. He has been playing Januzaj so we can't claim that Moyes doesn't trust youth, so there must be some reason.


I'd counter your argument and ask the "Moyes Out" brigade to give some reasons why changing the manager now would improve things?

The only positive I'd see is that a "big name" manager might attract better talent in the transfer window. But the chances are he'll have mostly the same squad of players, including Valencia, Giggs, Anderson et al. However the club and players would be more unsettled due to another managerial change. Anything that's going on in the background transfer related will be shook up, possibly leading to indecision. There would be another change in backroom staff.

So what would improve immediately by changing the manager now?

The 1st 2 ill give him but Adnan would have been played by Fergie anyway, we also have had a very easy champs league group, the rest of the post has too many maybe's in it so its all guess work and cant be used to defend Moyes.

ericzeking

Some of the tactical stuff is quite confusing in my opinion.

I think Moyes can see how poor we are in the middle of the park (re. actually buying Fellaini and going for Fab) so he is playin this solid looking 4411 with the emphasis on attacking on the flanks but then why is he playing 2 wingers who provide such little end product? I sigh a little every time I see Valencia on the teamsheet which is all the time-very Fergiesque btw. I think maybe he may be trying to play them into form, with them probably having the raw materials (ie pace) to play the way he wants to with the current squad, but it is costing him. Valencia in particular has been a long time trying to play himself into form!!!
Just as I read that back then I think, why then does Welbeck get licence to roam inside and shunt out Kagawa? As I said...confusing.

Then when bringing on Nani & Jan he tempered that by taking off Kag and Rafael(our best crossing outlet), now I assume Raf was running out of steam after his injury and Kagawa wasn't having a great game but he is capable of at least creating something.
At home we should have been going for the game. I was seriously disappointed with how we sat back at OT and looked like the away team for long stretches.

The squad looks so unbalanced at the moment (injuries are not helping), we have a few very good/great players intermingled with lots of underperforming or average players. Players are not on the same wavelength, attacks break down, it gives credence to the notion that you are sometimes better off with a team of 11 average players working very hard...I'm not advocating this btw.

I want to see Moyes given a fair crack of the whip with his own squad of players capable of enforcing his tactics. He needs to grab the job by the scruff of the neck and give it a go, at the moment he is between two stools. He knows we need to attack but at the same time he has this caution and apprehension that comes from being new to the role and not wanting to fock up, ironically it is focking up anyway because I think the indecision is feeding to the players, confuson and indecision are costing us goals with some of the sloppy defending...as well as our overall disjointed looking play.

He went for some exciting players in the summer but then on the other hand he prefers Valencia to Nani, Welbeck to Januzaj. If it's nothing else it's intriguing to see how it will play out.

Also.
Some free passes being granted too by fans, Vidic was absolutely destroyed by Lukaku who didn't give too rattling fooks about Serbia and "he'll murder ya" last night and threw him around like a rag doll, this hasn't been mentioned here. However, he didn't get much help from Evra on that side who was also very poor and not for the first time. The form of both this season has been very suspect.

Ok Valencia and Welbeck were not at all great and Giggs was ineffective without Jones legs alongside him but lets be fair when criticising the players. Sometimes you get the feeling lads have their post match posts written out befrore a ball is kicked.... "Valencia was sh!t, Welbeck was sh!t, Giggs is past it"..... though all 3 were indeed true of last night!!!!

A few have looked for postives, some are rashly saying there have been none, here are at least a couple,

Rooneys form.
Nani and Januzajs contracts and Januzaj being used.
DDGs increasing assuredness (though I think he could have done better for the goal last night)
Actually buying a midfielder albeit one who is taking time to settle.

jonnyfingers

Julez wrote: »

Something I'd never do is leave a game before full time, no matter what the score. I met some Irish lads on the plane a few years ago who left OT early when we were playing City and missed Michael Owens injury time winner.

Anyway with regards to Moyes and our results, I think most of us will agree it would be somewhat easier to stomach if we were playing any kind of decent football. We are just so bland and boring, we don't look like scoring often and we only create a couple of clear cut chances each game. And we always look like conceeding. Last night after 80 mins 1-0 down there didn't sem to be any kind of Manchester United desire to get back into the game, under Fergie the team always felt like they could pull a goal or two back, not now; the team and fans knew that nothing was coming.

The lack of belief after going a goal down was really disappointing. In fairness to Everton I think they really played well at the end of the game and stifled any potential attacks from us. But we just looked so tired, Giggs and Fellaini looked dead on their feet. Never seen that in a United team before.

I've said it before but we're really lacking someone like Keane, a leader on the field who could grab the team by the scruff on the neck and get them playing.

TheDoc

tallaghtmick wrote: »

The 1st 2 ill give him but Adnan would have been played by Fergie anyway, we also have had a very easy champs league group, the rest of the post has too many maybe's in it so its all guess work and cant be used to defend Moyes.

I think saying easy is a bit disingenuous to be fair. Sometimes I wonder are people thinking this is 1998, and judging teams ability of if they can name three players on the opposing team.

I'm not being smart, but Leverkusen have had a flying start to the season in Bundesliga and Sociedad are not doing too badly either.

We MADE Leverkusen look muck the other weak, they had won comfortably the game before, and after the 5-0 thumping won 3-0 in their next game.

We have looked mighty comfortable in Europe this season, bar one or two individual errors costing points, I hope Moyes is sucking it all in in Europe.

There is also a lot of material readily available during his appointment and after that looked into his workings and dealings during his reign at Everton, which showed a highly knowledgeable football man with a keen eye for talent, and more importantly how to nurture that young talent.

homerjay2005

flight delayed home this morning, even adds more to the depression. i cant remember being this disappointed after a result in years and ive seen a fair few big defeats in my time, even today i think i feel more dejected after the 6-1 defeat to city and the 4-1 defeat to Liverpool when looking at the overall picture of just how much in the s*it we are. 9th place for the PL champions, almost half way into the season, is just shocking - no other word can describe it.

we have dropped 13 points in the 5 games RVP has missed - i think its pretty safe to say the argument that he won us the league almost single handily last season has once and for all been put to bed now, the facts are there to be seen that we really struggle without him.

also, we have played 14 games now this season and we have won 1 game, yes, 1 f*cking game against a top 10 quality side. that in itself, says enough for me.

adox wrote: »

I think its time for Moyes to go.

im still very much in the give him time bracket, but i am starting to lose faith in him now. the real worry is who would we actually get apart from Fergie? he can turn this around, but as i have said all along, he did not deserve this job and has done nothing since to deserve this job.

i have never seen a United team limp so badly as we did last night in the closing stages of the game. hernandez came on and it was pathetic to see the service he got. there was no life in the team, we played well for about 30 minutes, but Everton dominated the rest of the game and to see them in the flesh,they were really impressive - quick, strong, organised and playing some nice ball and able to mix it up at the same time.

aint read all the posts but agreeing with those who have said its shocking to see how much they have progressed and use regressed - the common ground? mr moyes.


and i am still shocked at how at the 1000's of "fans" who just left when the goal went in - , there was still 8 minutes of football left to be played and the game was there to be drawn/even won.

fair enough if the score was 2-0 or 3-0 and people just wanted to get their kids home and avoid traffic, but would the fans have left like that if Fergie was in charge with the game still to play for? i dont think so.

The team would have responded also. last night, there was nothing, infact it was Everton who looked like adding a second.

tallaghtmick wrote: »

A few posters over the last few months, I'm in work so don't have the time to go back but if you look back over the last day you should see it mentioned once or twice, Also I seen one rather annoyed poster tell another to "go support the team in Blue"

the ironic thing here is, one of the posters who is at this s*it used to be a Leeds fans.

tallaghtmick wrote: »

Todays excuses are as follows,

Fergies fault.
Players fault.
Glaziers fault.

Cant be anyone else' fault at all.....

dont forget the fixtures, that seems to be number one excuse around here.

jonnyfingers

tallaghtmick wrote: »

The 1st 2 ill give him but Adnan would have been played by Fergie anyway, we also have had a very easy champs league group, the rest of the post has too many maybe's in it so its all guess work and cant be used to defend Moyes.

True, but reasons for sacking the manager are all maybes. Maybe a new manager will improve the team's performances. Maybe a new manager will sign some decent players. At least with Moyes we have a couple of definites thrown in with the maybes.

It's a 50-50 call if changing the manager now would benefit us, and personally I think that's too risky at the moment. If we decline further then that probability may change, but right now we just have to see how things go.

Agueroooo

I know the auto response to my point below will be 'but this is the same team that won the PL last season.

BUT

I really don't think Ferguson left you's in great shape.
It feels that Moyes is still trying to keep the Fergie factor going somewhat and hasn't really put his own stamp or played his own game yet.
It must be really fúcking hard knowing Ferguson is up in the stands and maybe, just maybe Fergie taking a break from the games might help a bit.

It is starting to feel similar to Roys time at Liverpool but the final straw for Roys time was a midweek game when the fans voted with their feet, and I think we had the lowest attendance in years and shortly after Roy was gone.
That aint gonna happen at OT with the massive following UTD have but I really cant see your fanbase putting up with many more defeats to teams you would have easily turned over not so long ago.

But I am record saying that come May and you guys are struggling for top4 then Moyes is toast no matter what the fanbase think.

UTD is a PLC with still a sizeable debt to be serviced. any risk to the main revenue streams will see the current manager steam rolled no matter who it is.

no faux concern from me before that gets rolled out.
I am just giving my point of view.

tallaghtmick

jonnyfingers wrote: »

True, but reasons for sacking the manager are all maybes. Maybe a new manager will improve the team's performances. Maybe a new manager will sign some decent players. At least with Moyes we have a couple of definites thrown in with the maybes.

It's a 50-50 call if changing the manager now would benefit us, and personally I think that's too risky at the moment. If we decline further then that probability may change, but right now we just have to see how things go.

Ah yes but I'm not saying sack him, what I'm saying is hes out of his depth and we'll see come the end of the season what the Glaziers want.

I'm very worried about where we will end up this year

mike65

SlickRic wrote: »

he said he'd have taken a draw before the game, after the game at Cardiff.

that says it all about just how much he needs to learn.

Signs of Hodgsons Disease all right, not to mention his statement about still in with a shout to win the league. All a bit Comical Ali.

I'll enjoy it while I can.

Your Airbag

Yet again people are calling for Moyes head and we are not half way through the season and still in the mix for four trophies and not miles off second.

Did those of you wanting Moyes out actually watch the game? We were very unlucky to lose. Moyes has been accused of negativity but last night he really went for it and the players blew chance after chance. People also talk about seeing progress, well Moyes hasn't got the sqaud he wants yet, he said we are short in MF and wants to add there. "He didn't do it in the transfer window. he blew it" you say, well Fergie could not add in the last 3 years either. Even he could not compete against the lure of La Liga and the wages the rich owner clubs are offering.

Moyes is trying to get get a squad he inherited to play a way Everton didn't because he doesn't have the players onboard that allows him to progress how he would like.

Its not been good enough so far but calling for his head so early? When you hear opposition fans call us fickle and spoilt you find it hard to argue against it.

Moyes is replacing the greatest football manager of all time, if anyone was expecting a perfect handover of the reigns they need a reality check. Fergie had UTD dominate the EPL because he was the greatest. We will never see that domination again and NO manager could replicate Fergies success. We will never see another manager do what Fergie did.

Sure we could have got Jose but he was a stop gap and when he got bored what then? A cycle of foreign managers who want to try the English league and lifestyle for a few years? We end constantly changing managers, new players are brought in to suit that managers taste, there is no stability, forget the like of Giggs, Scholes and co being mainstays, we end constantly shifting styles and staff. Its not foolproof either and going to mean we win trophies. The EPL is a different beast than La Liga or the German leauge, one of the reasons we have stayed at the top is stability of staff.

Moyes will be here next season whether we finish top four or not, make no mistake. He will be allowed to spend and do it his way with the players he picked for at least one full season.

The Moyes thing may or may not workout in the long run but nobody knows. We could still have a good season and lets see who he can bring in and what it does to our football.

He needs time to do that, he was not going to take over from the greatest manager ever, build his own squad and impose his own style over one transfer summer or season. If and only if he can't do it after being given adequate time and money then he should be replaced, not this early when he has barely walked in the door.

jonnyfingers

tallaghtmick wrote: »

Ah yes but I'm not saying sack him, what I'm saying is hes out of his depth and we'll see come the end of the season what the Glaziers want.

I'm very worried about where we will end up this year

That's fair enough. I'm worried too, but I set a goal of top 4 this season as I felt it the most realistic positive outcome.

If we don't get that I hope the club have a good look at Moyes performance, especially the stuff behind the scenes that we can't see, before making a decision on whether to stick or twist. Look at Arsenal, they went though a tough season last year, losing their best player, signing some new ones and plenty of calls for the manager's head. However this season they're flying.

So if we finish outside of the top four but the club sees signs that things might be different next season then I'd like to see them keep Moyes. However if there are no signs of improvement and they decide to replace Moyes then I'd have to agree. I'd feel very sorry for Moyes as this is a horrible job to take over from Ferguson, and I really want him to succeed, but if he just can't do it then we need to move on.

Either way I feel our long period of dominance has come to an end, and to be fair we've been on top for longer than anyone could have imagined. Football is all about taking the bad times with the good.

I for one am enjoying the season so far, obviously wishing we were further up the table. But I'm excited for every match. I'm excited to see Moyes and the team come good. I'm excited to see the likes of Januzaj turn into potentially the next big thing. I'm excited to see if we sign someone amazing in January. We can't win all the time, all we can do is try to enjoy the ride.

homerjay2005

ericzeking wrote: »

Some of the tactical stuff is quite confusing in my opinion.

Martinez wiped the floor with moyes last night. they pretty much played a formation that say Oviedo and Pienar double up as rotating fullbacks and wingers and then swarmed the midfield, with Coleman parading the other flank. one up top then and what do we do?

go two up front and play Danny Welbeck for 80 minutes. taking off rafael was a poor/baffling move as he was the only person actually crossing the ball properly, Valencia should have been straight off.

and low and behold then - valencia goes missing for the goal.

Agueroooo wrote: »

I really don't think Ferguson left you's in great shape.

this was blatantly obvious, but for some reason Moyes ignored this. he "tried" to sign players, but trying is not good enough excuse.

its amazing to see the amount of posters on here complain about our squad now, but were happy all summer to ridicule those who suggested we needed major investment and we were an embarrassment at the way we went about it.

SirDelboy18

Your Airbag wrote: »

We end constantly changing managers, new players are brought in to suit that managers taste, there is no stability, forget the like of Giggs, Scholes and co being mainstays, we end constantly shifting styles and staff.

Agree with a lot said here but this part is complete rubbish. How many managers have Chelsea gone through with Terry and Lampard being "mainstays". How many managers have Liverpool gone through with Gerrard and Carragher being "mainstays". If the players are good enough they'll play.

KH25

I can't be the only one who wants Valencia dropped, and not just for one game. He has turned into an absolute joke. He can't even cross the ball anymore. He just smashes it low and hits the first defender.

SirDelboy18

KH25 wrote: »

I can't be the only one who wants Valencia dropped, and not just for one game. He has turned into an absolute joke. He can't even cross the ball anymore. He just smashes it low and hits the first defender.

People were saying he was threatening against Tottenham, all I saw was him doing decently against his man and then never delivering a decent cross.

People think that because he doesn't turn, swivel and backpass 99 percent of the time like he used to (which he still does quite a lot), that he is getting his form back. Bullshít.

Lord TSC

homerjay2005 wrote: »

its amazing to see the amount of posters on here complain about our squad now, but were happy all summer to ridicule those who suggested we needed major investment and we were an embarrassment at the way we went about it.

Listen, I'm right beside you right now, but do me a favour and stop misrepresenting the arguements put to you over the summer. NO ONE ridiculed anyone for suggesting we needed major investment. Everyone knew that. Where you were ridiculed was for calling "embarrassment" after a few days of the window opening, where others wanted to wait and give him the whole window.

Everyone obviously has tipping points as to how long they are happy to give Moyes. Yours went very quickly. Mine is gone now, and I think a lot of people are getting there as well. And a few are still in the wait and see boat. But no one denied that we needed investments of a serious nature.

KH25

SirDelboy18 wrote: »

People were saying he was threatening against Tottenham, all I saw was him doing decently against his man and then never delivering a decent cross.

People think that because he doesn't turn, swivel and backpass 99 percent of the time like he used to (which he still does quite a lot), that he is getting his form back. Bullshít.

Exactly. He has been one of our worst players for about 2 years now, yet both Fergie and Moyes persist with him? Scoring the odd goal doesn't help him. At any other top club he would have been benched long ago. The only threat from the right wing these days is Rafael.

jonnyfingers

homerjay2005 wrote: »

Martinez wiped the floor with moyes last night. they pretty much played a formation that say Oviedo and Pienar double up as rotating fullbacks and wingers and then swarmed the midfield, with Coleman parading the other flank. one up top then and what do we do?

go two up front and play Danny Welbeck for 80 minutes. taking off rafael was a poor/baffling move as he was the only person actually crossing the ball properly, Valencia should have been straight off.

and low and behold then - valencia goes missing for the goal.



this was blatantly obvious, but for some reason Moyes ignored this. he "tried" to sign players, but trying is not good enough excuse.

its amazing to see the amount of posters on here complain about our squad now, but were happy all summer to ridicule those who suggested we needed major investment and we were an embarrassment at the way we went about it.

I'd have to agree that tactically Moyes has not set the world on fire, but then again neither did Ferguson and he was successful.

Also, regarding the squad, if the players played as good as they have at times in the past we'd be doing a lot better. My position is that some of the players have gone into, and have stayed, in decline, even since the summer. I was modestly optimistic that the squad had enough quality to get us top 4 this year without the Fergie factor, however many of the players just aren't performing this year. It could well be down to Moyes' training methods, tactics or motivational skills, however I've seen him get much better performances from his Everton players than his United ones so I'm placing a good bit of blame on the players themselves.

I do hope we sign a star in January just to shake things up. Fellaini has been a massive disappointment as I honestly believed he'd at least bring a bit of steel to our midfield, but he just hasn't been great. I do think that with one decent midfielder and the likes of Nani, Kagawa, Rooney and RVP playing well together we'll do well.

homerjay2005

Your Airbag wrote: »

Did those of you wanting Moyes out actually watch the game? We were very unlucky to lose.

lol, you really are the most biased United fan i have ever met and certainly one with the lowest standards i have ever seen when it comes to the team. the general consensus from any journalist and neutral fan that i read/spoke to this morning, was that Everton deserved their win. in fact you are the only person i have seen that is putting a positive spin on last night.

you talk about all these chances we supposidly had - we created zero chances in the last 15-20 minutes and started poorly....dont forget Everton actually scored a goal, they also hit the post before they scored and that lad with the name i wont even try to spell, missed a sitter before they scored. we had about 4 shots from distance that howard saved, they were no better than the shots that de gea saved, then there was the fantastic block from Smalling and also that fact that in terms of possession, it was pretty much even.

we had a deflected shot hit the post and Evra/Welbeck double chance that came from a corner. anything else we had was as a result of a long distance shot (all comforable for howard) and punt after punt into the ground.

inside the ground, everybody could feel a goal was coming for everton, it was one of the most negative atmospheres ive ever experienced. 1000s of people left, as they all knew the team was not going to get back into the game as we were so dead.

considering we were the home team, the onus is on us to attack and dominate the game, we can have no complaints about last night, the better team won.

Morzadec

Perhaps calling for his head right now is a bit reactive, but I can understand fans doing so and I don't think they should be called out as having ridiculous opinions.

Someone made the Hodgson at Liverpool comparision and I can see it.

Yes he's new to the job and yes he needs time, but the minimum expectation for a team that was Champions last year, got 89 points the year before and are basically always winning or challenging for the title would be 75 points and 4th place. Absolute minimum, and even that would be a disappointing league campaign that not a single United fan would have accepted before the start of the season.

At the moment they are quite far off that target.

United have a nice little run coming up, the types of games they have been ruthless in in the past.

Lets see how they do and if Moyes can turn it around.

But if this run of form continues past the halfway stage of the season I can absolutely understand fans calling for his head.

Not qualifying for the CL would be a disaster and is not an option for United, and if a manager change can help them pick up the form they need then I don't see it as at all ridiculous to brave the decision.

In this case this would not be a Manicini-esque or Chelsea style sacking. It would be completely understandable.

At the moment I would say Moyes is in the 'Slightly insecure´territory (to borrow a Football manager phrase). He still has matches and time to turn it around.

However, if this form is maintained over the next 10 league games or so he will be under considerable pressure and if I was a United fan I would probably be calling for his head at this hypothetical stage.

bullvine

The title was never on the cards once Moyes came in, I accepted that but is third still a realistic place?

homerjay2005

Morzadec wrote: »

Perhaps calling for his head right now is a bit reactive, but I can understand fans doing so and I don't think they should be called out as having ridiculous opinions.

genuine question here for those who slagging off the "Moyes Out" brigade, how long are you happy to see this go on, before you want him gone? if for example we only pick up 22 points, from the next 14 games, would that be time enough for him to be sacked?

i think he will turn this around and i still expect us to finish in top 4, but its getting to a stage now where its brown underpants stuff.

mike65

Utd are lucky that Newcastle away aside the run is pretty much perfect for racking up some points in succession. Villa, WHU, Hull, Norwich. Then it gets trickier again.

Of course the worry for Moyes (and everyone else at Utd) is a stumble before the January games.

Mitch Connor

I was thinking we might not do any real business in January cause it could be a tough month to sign players.

While that is still the case, I don't think United or Moyes can afford to not push clubs and players to the limit in an attempt to get them in as soon as possible.

Whatever Fergie was able to do with the squad, Moyes clearly cannot, so we need high quality reinforments as soon as possible - if we don't sign at least a CM and a Winger (both of very high quality) we are fooked for 4th imo. A left back would also be on my shopping list.

homerjay2005

mike65 wrote: »

Utd are lucky that Newcastle away aside the run is pretty much perfect for racking up some points in succession. Villa, WHU, Hull, Norwich. Then it gets trickier again.

Of course the worry for Moyes (and everyone else at Utd) is a stumble before the January games.

we were supposed to have "easy" fixtures against West Brom, Southampton, Cardiff etc etc, but dropped points. we struggled big time against Stoke, Sunderland and Palace.

at this point in time, i dont feel confident of us beating anybody, but at the same time, anything is possible such as the Arsenal and Leverkusen wins, so that gives some hope.

it really is a mess right now...not sure where the inspiration is going to come from, but hopefully it starts on Saturday.

v3ttel

Nani, Kagawa and Januzaj need to start against Newcastle. There are 3 of our most exciting attacking players.

We need to replace the 40 year old we're currently relying on for creativity in center midfield with a world class CM.

Fellaini needs to be given confidence. He has not become a bad player overnight. His first half was actually quite ok. He won the ball back high up the pitch and kept us on the front foot numerous times. However his second half was disastrous, but he wasn't helped by Giggs, and our inability to retain possession.

Welbeck is a good player for a fourth choice striker. He should never, ever, under any circumstances, be considered for a spot on the wing. He is truly woeful there. He should be behind RVP, Rooney & Chico in the pecking order.

Too often our deliver into the box has been very poor for quite some time now. Valencia, Nani, Young in particular (along with anyone who will regularly play at RB or LB) should be brought out on the training pitch every day and made to practice crossing the ball for hours on end, with various types of deliveries (floated, driven, curled, high, low, etc, etc). Valencia, especially, his delivery is woeful. He constantly drills it low off the nearest defender.

We need a good clear out of players, Rio has been terrible this season. Buttner is not United quality. Anderson has not delivered on his potential and is too injury prone. Giggs needs to be replaced so he can retire and focus on influencing the younger players. Young needs to start showing some form, using his pace to take players rather than being afraid to do so (he also has been warned about diving, the club need to start taking more serious action).

Most of all, the crowd need to be behind the team no matter what. No board of directors with Sir Bobby and Sir Alex is going to sack a manager prematurely. The only option is to get behind him rather than creating a toxic atmosphere.

jonnyfingers

Morzadec wrote: »

At the moment I would say Moyes is in the 'Slightly insecure´territory (to borrow a Football manager phrase). He still has matches and time to turn it around.

However, if this form is maintained over the next 10 league games or so he will be under considerable pressure and if I was a United fan I would probably be calling for his head at this hypothetical stage.

You're correct. The main problem with consistently poor results is the erosion of confidence. You could see the beginnings of it last night when we conceded and didn't really try to get a goal back. Ferguson had bad runs in his time, but typically the team would turn it around within three or four games and the building lack of confidence would turn into belief and we'd tend to go on a good run.

Under Moyes we've had some bad runs but luckily turned it around quite quickly with a few wins. The difference is we haven't turned that into a good run of games. I thought the wins at Stoke, Fulham and then Arsenal would drive us on to a good run, but it got stopped in its tracks by the draw at Cardiff. The manner of that draw, with the last minute equaliser, was difficult to take too. The win in the Champions League brought back some belief but the draw with Spurs further eroded that and last night's loss has truly removed any momentum we were trying to build up.

The key is to ideally win the rest of the games in December and get a run going into the new year. All these games are winnable so we should be aiming for it. If we do win the vast majority of them we'll move up the table into a decent position and I'd be positive going into January that we could build that that.

The problem for Moyes is that if we can't break this run of poor results the confidence of the team may be beyond saving. Usually the only way to get over that is to change the manager.

So I think the rest of this month is really a crucial time for Moyes. If we can't go on a good run I fear we'll have no option but to change manager, if nothing but to inject some belief into the team.

Your Airbag

homerjay2005 wrote: »

Martinez wiped the floor with moyes last night. they pretty much played a formation that say Oviedo and Pienar double up as rotating fullbacks and wingers and then swarmed the midfield, with Coleman parading the other flank. one up top then and what do we do?

go two up front and play Danny Welbeck for 80 minutes. taking off rafael was a poor/baffling move as he was the only person actually crossing the ball properly, Valencia should have been straight off.

and low and behold then - valencia goes missing for the goal.



this was blatantly obvious, but for some reason Moyes ignored this. he "tried" to sign players, but trying is not good enough excuse.

its amazing to see the amount of posters on here complain about our squad now, but were happy all summer to ridicule those who suggested we needed major investment and we were an embarrassment at the way we went about it.

Better tactically maybe but not better overall. Everton were on the ropes more than once and only for our players blowing easy chances we would have won it. How they survived I don't know. The Raf sub was an odd one but the subs were really bold and maybe Moyes knew Raf didn't have 90 mins in him, right after the subs we had Everton pinned down for 20 mins, again I don't know how they survived.

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Listen, I'm right beside you right now, but do me a favour and stop misrepresenting the arguements put to you over the summer. NO ONE ridiculed anyone for suggesting we needed major investment. Everyone knew that. Where you were ridiculed was for calling "embarrassment" after a few days of the window opening, where others wanted to wait and give him the whole window.

Everyone obviously has tipping points as to how long they are happy to give Moyes. Yours went very quickly. Mine is gone now, and I think a lot of people are getting there as well. And a few are still in the wait and see boat. But no one denied that we needed investments of a serious nature.

This. People love to label you pro Moyes if you call it as you see it, now we are getting "we thought the squad was fine" I though the UTD team that won the title last year was average and RVP's goals at the start of the season papered up so many cracks it was funny. We would have been in a dire situation was it not for RVP individually winning us about 12 points. I don't recall one person thinking the sqaud didn't need additions. How homer can say this was a opinion is beyond me, literally nobody thought the sqaud was fine as it was. I said we needed 5-6 players last season.

homerjay2005 wrote: »

lol, you really are the most biased United fan i have ever met and certainly one with the lowest standards i have ever seen when it comes to the team. the general consensus from any journalist and neutral fan that i read/spoke to this morning, was that Everton deserved their win. in fact you are the only person i have seen that is putting a positive spin on last night.

you talk about all these chances we supposidly had - we created zero chances in the last 15-20 minutes and started poorly....dont forget Everton actually scored a goal, they also hit the post before they scored and that lad with the name i wont even try to spell, missed a sitter before they scored. we had about 4 shots from distance that howard saved, they were no better than the shots that de gea saved, then there was the fantastic block from Smalling and also that fact that in terms of possession, it was pretty much even.

we had a deflected shot hit the post and Evra/Welbeck double chance that came from a corner. anything else we had was as a result of a long distance shot (all comforable for howard) and punt after punt into the ground.

inside the ground, everybody could feel a goal was coming for everton, it was one of the most negative atmospheres ive ever experienced. 1000s of people left, as they all knew the team was not going to get back into the game as we were so dead.

considering we were the home team, the onus is on us to attack and dominate the game, we can have no complaints about last night, the better team won.

Bull. Low standards? what are you actually saying? We had Everton on the ropes but the players blew chances, we hit the post and cross bar. Welbeck missed and open goal and Rooney missed a great chance by volleying the ball rather than taking it down and hitting the target. I watched the full 90 mins and the fact Everton didn't concede was miraculous. Anything else is a complete mis representation on what happened.

Yes Everton were good too and they are a good team but you make it sound like they dominated us at home. You on the other hand are overly negative and reactionary. The commentators were saying it was a miracle Everton didn't let in a goal, I watched the match with a pool fan and he had no idea where the Everton deserved it talk came from.

We had more possession, shots and shots on target than Everton. The onus was on us to attack and we did in buckets.

homerjay2005

this man really is a utter clueless ****. he has not got one iota about football, all he cares about is money.

as to how he got this job, ill never know. some of ye lads on here have more cop on than him. these are his comments about our current problems on the pitch.

However, Woodward remains relaxed about that prospect, insisting United were strong enough to ride out such short-term financial strife.

"If you fight hard and just fail, people will still watch you on television, still turn up and buy shirts," he said.

"There's still a lot of affinity with the club and interest. The reality is that you can't always win.

"Take Liverpool. They still sell an incredible number of shirts and have the second biggest shirt deal in the Premier League.

"They have one of the biggest technical partner deals - and they haven't won the league since 1990. And you can put the last bit underlined and in capitals.

"If we have a bad year we have the financial strength to change the team. We have so much deeper financial strength that instead of selling three players and buying three, we can do five."

so if we have the money, why didnt he f*cking spend it?

mike65

I've always said shirt sales are where its really at!

Your Airbag

homerjay2005 wrote: »

this man really is a utter clueless ****. he has not got one iota about football, all he cares about is money.

as to how he got this job, ill never know. some of ye lads on here have more cop on than him. these are his comments about our current problems on the pitch.



so if we have the money, why didnt he f*cking spend it?

He is a business man and everything he said there makes business sense. Your looking everywhere for something wrong and scraping the bottom of the barrell.

Why didn't he spend it? He did, you know this but still ask. He tried to spend much more than we did in the end. Some clubs didn't want to sell to us.

Why are you bringing Woodward up this morn.........actually forget it. You lose your sh1t when things don't go our way

MagicIRL

homerjay2005 wrote: »

this man really is a utter clueless ****. he has not got one iota about football, all he cares about is money.

as to how he got this job, ill never know. some of ye lads on here have more cop on than him. these are his comments about our current problems on the pitch.



so if we have the money, why didnt he f*cking spend it?

BECAUSE THE MAN IS A COCK.

homerjay2005

Your Airbag wrote: »

Why didn't he spend it? He did, you know this but still ask.

he did??? last i checked, he kept it in his bank account all summer like a penny penching **** and then panicked bought at 11.00 as the window closed. Unless of course you know more than i do about him...did he buy a new house/car...that round the world dash must have cost a fair few quid i guess....

"like a drunk, embarrassing Uncle at a wedding" was one quote that was written to describe him and it couldnt be more apt.

Your Airbag wrote: »

H
Why are you bringing Woodward up this morn.........actually forget it.

because this is an interview that is in the media this morning. your so obsessed with defending your buddy, its fantastic entertainment for us all.

23 minutes to reply though, you are slipping....normally you reply much quicker when i post about him. do keep up.

Agueroooo

mike65 wrote: »

I've always said shirt sales are where its really at!

Gonna take a shed load of shirt sales to service £70mil+ of debt payments this year

Lord TSC

Over the summer, there was reports (if we are to believe them) of 30m bids for Fabregas, 40m for Khedira, 100m bid for Bale, as well as bids for Herrera, Baines, Snedijer....

It strikes me the problem was never implied to be we didn't have money or didn't want to spend it; it was that our targets, ultimately, not realistically obtainable.