Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14 Mod warning post #718

keane2097

Mitch Connor wrote: »

I'm fairly certain the issue has been he has been useless at transfer negotiations.

That seems to make more sense than the "won't spend a penny unless it's excessive" duality.

keane2097

homerjay2005 wrote: »

where is the contradiction or more to the point - how can you not see the difference?

all summer long, he penny penched putting in misery bids and pissing off clubs.

at 11.00 on deadline day, we then had to pay £27.5million on a player who could have been got earlier that summer, for less but still more than the money we offered (we bid £28million for him and Baines), release clause having been at £23.5million.

how on earth can you not see the difference here in what i am saying, it is pretty clear?

he had to overpay on the Fellaini deal, as it was f8cked up and for that, he deserves criticism unless you disagree with that????

Well my original question was just which you thought was worse?

homerjay2005

keane2097 wrote: »

That seems to make more sense than the "won't spend a penny unless it's excessive" duality.

where are you getting this from?

keane2097 wrote: »

Well my original question was just which you thought was worse?

neither - they both show his incompetence. does that answer your question now or you still going to try pick a flaw in something that actually is pretty clear. as to how anybody can fail to see this, i dont know.

keane2097

homerjay2005 wrote: »

where are you getting this from?

I think the notion of a penny pinching miser who impulsively overspends is a bit of a stretch.

homerjay2005 wrote: »

neither - they both show his incompetence. does that answer your question now or you still going to try pick a flaw in something that actually is pretty clear. as to how anybody can fail to see this, i dont know.

Pick a flaw? I just think you're probably wrong.

I have a vague notion in my head that in a company like Man United, something as major as player acquisition is less likely to be run as a wild goose chase where the bumbling chief executive runs around Europe to a Benny Hill sound track trying to cleverly low ball everyone before blowing his load on a player he didn't want, and more likely to be a series of plans and contingencies plotted out by an array of people which when viewed from the outside may appear somewhat incomprehensible.

I am however basing that on no more that you are basing your idea of a penny pincher who likes to overspend so who can say.

homerjay2005

keane2097 wrote: »

I think the notion of a penny pinching miser who impulsively overspends is a bit of a stretch.

lovely.

Montroseee

Can we ship Kagawa back to Dortmund in Jan please? Plenty of players there that would improve us hugely. He was poor yet again yesterday and tbh. the excuses are wearing thin at this stage. It's a joke at this stage, I know he has been played out of position but he still should be playing better than he has. I think even his most loyal followers would agree the move to UTD. has been an absolute disaster for both sides.

Al Capwned

Pro. F wrote: »

Have you, or anyone reading this, got a source for this? I remember hearing it in passing on the Football Weekly podcast and I went searching all over for the quotes. Couldn't find video or written quotes of him saying this anywhere. If I do ever see quotes for this then I'll know straight away that he needs to go.

Blatter wrote: »

http://m.thenational.ae/sport/football/kim-lifts-cardiff-city-to-late-draw-with-manchester-united

It's at the end of that link. It's a bit strange though as I don't think any other paper had those quotes or even reported anything about them. Either it's a misquote or Moyes has a lot of chums in the media.

Pro. F wrote: »

Thanks for that.

I'm going to work on the assumption that that paper misquoted him. First of all because, as you say, it wasn't written anywhere else. And also because I watched all the video of interviews and press conferences that I could find and didn't see him saying that last, controversial bit. And I did see him saying all the other bits in the quote.

Also found it here - didn't hear it mentioned at the time, but that's not something you want to hear the United manager saying....

"I’m disappointed," he said. "It’s similar to Southampton [a 1-1 draw at Old Trafford last month] where we had the game in our control with a minute to go and conceded from a set piece. It's cost us, ultimately. I thought we could have played better. We didn’t have a lot of rhythm in the second half, but this has been a tough place to come for teams.

"We’re on the back of international duty so I probably would have taken the result however it came today but I'd have liked it [the performance] to have been better, more fluent and it wasn’t to be."

Thatsfootball

Saw this on Twitter so take what ye want from it. It's from Alistair Ferguson, who is normally quite good with Utd news:

Things that I've learnt today. (1) United are giving serious thoughts to moving for Pogba. (2) There will certainly be purchases in January and (3) there are rumours abound although nothing concrete of unrest with RVP. That is all. #MUFC

Twitter at twitter.com/Fergie1975

Headshot

Wouldnt surprise if if RVP was unsettled

tallaghtmick

Pogba?

Pogba!!!

Fooking Pogba!!!!!

No we cried to many tears over him we wont be taking him back into our hearts:pac:

homerjay2005

Going for Pogba would be a strange one - why would we want a player back, who clearly left on bad terms 18 months ago?

would be some kick in the hole to have to fork out for him after he leaving for free. great player, but i think that ship has sailed unfortunately.

Rayne Wooney

Kagawa only had 73% completed passes yesterday which seems poor but almost 80% of his passes were forward passes which is crazy high even for an attacking playmaker.

It's not his fault he's playing with a handicap when both Welbeck and Valencia are 2/3 of the attacking options he can pass to.

It's down to Moyes again, if he had started Nani and Jan I don't think we'd have lost.

ericzeking

Lawro had the RVP unsettled stuff on the Last Word last night which is interesting given his link with Moyes via PNE.

It was mentioned here over the summer too and when discussing The Book that SAF had signed RVP with the premise that he would be the manager.

Pro. F

keane2097 wrote: »

Can you really say the central defence is that good with Ferdinand on a very clear decline and Vidic not seeming to ever be 100% fit? If Vidic is fully fit this season then I would have to think he's on a considerable wane as well.

EDIT:

Just to add to that Evra is pretty terrible and while Rafael is good I don't think there are any other right backs at United above average, Smalling being the best of them.

Basically I think the United defence is pretty badly overrated this year in particular. Without Vidic at his peak the rest falls apart, and I think Vidic has been way off the pace this season.

I agree that Rio is regressing quickly, but I don't agree that there is any problem with Vidic aside from the fact that there is far too much rotation at the moment. I remember people were writing him off in the early part of last season, but when he came back from his injury around half way through the season (I can't remember when it was exactly), and was part of a settled defence, he was back to his imposing self. I still see all the signs that he is a strong, brave and intelligent CB.

I also think that if Smalling or Jones played regularly in a settled defence that they would quickly be recognised as among the best centre backs in the league. And I think Evans is a good back up (others think he is more than that).

So this does come down to how much you trust Vidic, Smalling and Jones. I think the evidence of what each have shown, considering the rotation that they've faced over the last two seasons, is that they are all top drawer.

Evra is a weakness, that's true. But there are a lot of clubs in the league that have one dodgy fullback, even some top clubs. There isn't much back up for Rafael in terms of attacking from that position, but defensively Jones and Smalling are fine to fill in there imo.

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

We need real world class LB, LW, and CM

You list City, Chelsea as being weak in CB and not United as being weak in that area and yet they had a better defensive record last season and currently this season than us?

Well then what is your unlaughable level for the current players considering we're 9th in the league at the moment?

We don't need a world class left back or left wing. There's no reason why any team has to have a world class left back. And for the left wing we have Januzaj, he's quite good already.

Defensive records involve an awful lot more than just the quality of the centre backs.

How we are performing this season is what I am criticising. I'm saying the players are more than good enough to be in the top four and that the manager is the problem, and you are saying "yeah but we're in ninth place." That doesn't prove anything one way or the other.

Your Airbag wrote: »

Actually let me revise when I agreed with the MF, not sure what I was thinking. Good enough for top four you said? Actually when I look at City and Chelseas and Arsenal I'm not so sure.

Our MF is not UTD standard and equipped to title challange and is miles behind top european team, but top four, maybe maybe not. I'm not having a go here or meaning to drag up the whole Clev thing again but just sit back and look at them individually.

Yo say "but Fellaini, Carrick, Cleverley and Giggs is enough to cobble something together" I think the word cobble is pretty telling

Lets look at them keeping in mind the Yaya's, Carzola's, Ramseys, Silva's, Lampards etc is there the ability in the UTD do they compliment each other also

Giggs has good passing ability but is 40 and doesn't have the legs for it.

Clev isn't creative enough and does a basic job but is limited compared to those other MF's.

Carrick is our best MF but even saying that he is getting on and I said before he is the best of what we have but not the best MF out there or UTD standard of old.

Fellaini has ability but we haven't seen it yet. He may or may not work out. Its the risk when you make a transfer and a lot us wanted him but so far its hasn't been a good signing, yes some of this is down to how Moyes deploys him.

Ando is a lost cause.


When you sit back and look at it that a poor state of affairs for our MF to be in and most games are controlled and won and lost in the centre, our forward play is suffering because of it. We could easily do with four new bodies in their to repalce what we have.

If you just look at the CM in isolation then yes, we are behind all the other top teams. And you and I can agree a general impression, regardless of the details if each individual. But it's the same as if you just look at Chelsea's centre forward options in isolation or City's goal keeper and central defensive issues in isolation. That's my point, taken as a whole our squad is at a very similar level to those two. And I would say it's beyond doubt that the squad is at a level good enough to be ahead of Spurs, Liverpool, Everton, Southampton et al.

Montroseee

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Kagawa only had 73% completed passes yesterday which seems poor but almost 80% of his passes were forward passes which is crazy high even for an attacking playmaker.

It's not his fault he's playing with a handicap when both Welbeck and Valencia are 2/3 of the attacking options he can pass to.

It's down to Moyes again, if he had started Nani and Jan I don't think we'd have lost.

Sick of excuses when it comes to Kagawa, he was poor again last night which has been too often the case.

Cantona's Collars

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Kagawa only had 73% completed passes yesterday which seems poor but almost 80% of his passes were forward passes which is crazy high even for an attacking playmaker.

It's not his fault he's playing with a handicap when both Welbeck and Valencia are 2/3 of the attacking options he can pass to.

It's down to Moyes again, if he had started Nani and Jan I don't think we'd have lost.

You'd have to feel sorry for the poor fella,looking to his left and seeing a dose of shite then turning to his right to be greeted with an even worse one.Maybe that's why Carrick rarely ventures too far forward,he's sick to the teeth of passing the ball forward to the wide position then suddenly it ends up behind him with the full back.

Agueroooo

I can see Klopp coming back in and asking about Kagawa (again) in the summer if not Jan.

keane2097

Just to finish off my random musings on deranged chief executives, the possibility that Fellaini was a player United didn't want to sign if their other plans fell into place occurs to me.

Following along from that crazy notion is the idea that the decision was taken that, when weighing up the choice between signing a player who they may ultimately not want for 24M or signing a player they knew they did want for 27M later on they may have decided they didn't give a **** about the 3M difference.

It makes less sense than planless penny-pinching miser decided to spunk off 27M out of nowhere at the last minute admittedly, but it's just about possible.

Burt Macklin

There's no point playing Kagawa in the hole if the midfield behind him is Fellaini and Giggs. It'll be a long season if Moyes doesn't buy a midfielder in January.

Cantona's Collars

I played like Valencia one Sunday morning...........in fairness,I was still drunk from the night before having only got home 2 hours before kick-off.All I could do was get the ball & pass it to the fullback or square to the midfield.I lasted 30 mins before I was hauled off.He gets thousands to play like that every week at the biggest club in the world,go figure.

Lord TSC

I've been desperately trying not to think about RVP and accept the reasons for his absence at face value. Because for all people go on about wanting a clearout, I do worry that such a clear out would not see the deadwood go, but actually see the likes of RVP, Kagawa and Hernandez go with midtable replacements brought in. I also worry now that Rooney will leave for little or nothing, and wonder how long we'll keep the likes of De Gea if Real or Barca start sniffing round as expected and we're floundering.

Mr.Micro

ericzeking wrote: »

Lawro had the RVP unsettled stuff on the Last Word last night which is interesting given his link with Moyes via PNE.

It was mentioned here over the summer too and when discussing The Book that SAF had signed RVP with the premise that he would be the manager.

Poor van Persie, he can't have it all.

RasTa

Valencia has turned into a stronger version of Aaron Lennon

keane2097

Pro. F wrote: »

I agree that Rio is regressing quickly, but I don't agree that there is any problem with Vidic aside from the fact that there is far too much rotation at the moment. I remember people were writing him off in the early part of last season, but when he came back from his injury around half way through the season (I can't remember when it was exactly), and was part of a settled defence, he was back to his imposing self. I still see all the signs that he is a strong, brave and intelligent CB.

I also think that if Smalling or Jones played regularly in a settled defence that they would quickly be recognised as among the best centre backs in the league. And I think Evans is a good back up (others think he is more than that).

So this does come down to how much you trust Vidic, Smalling and Jones. I think the evidence of what each have shown, considering the rotation that they've faced over the last two seasons, is that they are all top drawer.

Evra is a weakness, that's true. But there are a lot of clubs in the league that have one dodgy fullback, even some top clubs. There isn't much back up for Rafael in terms of attacking from that position, but defensively Jones and Smalling are fine to fill in there imo.

You could be right about Vidic still being ok but I think the problem with him at the moment is that his fitness is so all over the shop that he's part of the problem re:settled defence himself.

It's possible - if you rate Smalling and Jones that highly - that you would be better off leaving him out for the most part and letting those other two get on with settling in together rather than playing different combinations as and when Vidic is all systems go.

I do think he's off the pace this season either way.

Pro. F

keane2097 wrote: »

Just to finish off my random musings on deranged chief executives, the possibility that Fellaini was a player United didn't want to sign if their other plans fell into place occurs to me.

Following along from that crazy notion is the idea that the decision was taken that, when weighing up the choice between signing a player who they may ultimately not want for 24M or signing a player they knew they did want for 27M later on they may have decided they didn't give a **** about the 3M difference.

It makes less sense than planless penny-pinching miser decided to spunk off 27M out of nowhere at the last minute admittedly, but it's just about possible.

The claim that we bought Fellaini for more than his buy out clause is not actually that well supported.

The press were claiming that his buyout clause was 24m and was due to expire in the middle of August. Then it turned out that his buyout clause had expired on 31st of July and everybody just accepted that the press had been wrong about that bit. But for some reason few questioned if the press had also been wrong about the value of the clause.

All through the summer there was a twitter account (reported on here by Blatter) that was supposedly very reliable for Everton news that had been saying that the buyout clause was more than reported in the press and was set to expire at the end of July.

So yeah, in short, we don't know if the United suits did actually pay more for Fellaini than they needed to.

homerjay2005

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Poor van Persie, he can't have it all.

well maybe Fergie told him a lie or two when he signed, who knows?

Though at the same time, maybe Fergie didnt think about retiring in August 2012. the comments in the book about having to apologise to RVP, can be taken many ways, depending on how people want to view them.

keane2097

Pro. F wrote: »

The claim that we bought Fellaini for more than his buy out clause is not actually that well supported.

The press were claiming that his buyout clause was 24m and was due to expire in the middle of August. Then it turned out that his buyout clause had expired on 31st of July and everybody just accepted that the press had been wrong about that bit. But for some reason few questioned if the press had also been wrong about the value of the clause.

All through the summer there was a twitter account (reported on here by Blatter) that was supposedly very reliable for Everton news that had been saying that the buyout clause was more than reported in the press and was set to expire at the end of July.

So yeah, in short, we don't know if the United suits did actually pay more for Fellaini than they needed to.

That's something I was actually aware of, but rather than get into the spiral of doom that is google around for old news reports I decided to take the boogyman version of the story that's commonly held and just refute it with logic

Pro. F

Al Capwned wrote: »

Also found it here - didn't hear it mentioned at the time, but that's not something you want to hear the United manager saying....

Ah I'm going to have to wait for better than goal.com too. I don't want it to seem like I'm being overly trusting of Moyes, but just thenational.ae and goal.com isn't enough to make me believe he said that.

jonnyfingers

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Poor van Persie, he can't have it all.

Well piecing together the various rumours I've heard about Van Persie being unhappy it seems:

1. he signed for United on the assumption that Sir Alex would not be retiring in the near future
   
2. he didn't like that Rene Meulensteen was no longer a first team coach as he really like working with him
   
3. he is not impressed with the amount of fitness training David Moyes has employed

Now I think all three of them could be very valid, especially the training changes. If you think about it RVP was hardly injured last season. Moyes comes in and the players talk about how their fitness training has increased under Moyes. Now players like RVP are getting injured, and I've noticed some tired legs towards the end of games recently, especially last night against Everton.

So sadly I could well believe that RVP isn't happy. I really hope it's not the case.

homerjay2005

from the guardian, normally seen as a very good source.

As the £23.5m clause for Everton's Fellaini ended on 31 July, United faced the ignominy of having to pay more than this after Moyes and Ed Woodward, the executive vice-chairman, decided to allow it to expire in the hope the midfielder could be bought for less.

i know you lot seem to think 4 million is nothing, but thats 4 million that could be spent elsewhere. we backed out of the hazard deal due to agent fees for instance, but then due to panic we were willing to waste it on fellaini.

jonnyfingers wrote: »

Now players like RVP are getting injured, and I've noticed some tired legs towards the end of games recently, especially last night against Everton.

this is something that we commented on last night, the last 12 or 13 mins, plus the added 4 mins, the team was completely flat and we barely got into the Everton half - as i said earlier, the entire stadium could sense what was coming, they had 2 great chances before hand to go 1-0 up.

added in the Southampton and Cardiff goals and poor finish to games like West Brom and Liverpool, i think we need to start looking here as a starting point as to why our performances are slacking towards the end of the game.

you could argue that we have not scored any late wins (Stoke at a stretch) and have 5 points dropped due to late goals already and that is not united style.

aperture_nuig

I wonder will the chance that Moyes' head may be on the chopping block in the summer if we finish below top 4 encourage him to really spend and make the serious changes we need in January, or will he just play it safe...



...who am I kidding

keane2097

homerjay2005 wrote: »

from the guardian, normally seen as a very good source.



i know you lot seem to think 4 million is nothing, but thats 4 million that could be spent elsewhere. we backed out of the hazard deal due to agent fees for instance, but then due to panic* we were willing to waste it on fellaini.

*Citation needed

Pro. F

homerjay2005 wrote: »

from the guardian, normally seen as a very good source.



i know you lot seem to think 4 million is nothing, but thats 4 million that could be spent elsewhere. we backed out of the hazard deal due to agent fees for instance, but then due to panic we were willing to waste it on fellaini.

The Guardian are definitely not above working on incomplete evidence and sloppy logic to get an angle for a story. They were proven wrong about when the clause expired yet they never bothered to doubt whether they were also wrong about the amount of the clause.

Your Airbag

keane2097 wrote: »

That's something I was actually aware of, but rather than get into the spiral of doom that is google around for old news reports I decided to take the boogyman version of the story that's commonly held and just refute it with logic

I thought that was my job? :pac:

Glad to have someone else to lighten the load

brinty

aperture_nuig wrote: »

I wonder will the chance that Moyes' head may be on the chopping block in the summer if we finish below top 4 encourage him to really spend and make the serious changes we need in January, or will he just play it safe...



...who am I kidding

If this is a possibility do you real think the board would give him massive money to invest knowing they might have to sack him and not have a budget for a new manager to invest in the playershe'd want..

homerjay2005

aperture_nuig wrote: »

I wonder will the chance that Moyes' head may be on the chopping block in the summer if we finish below top 4 encourage him to really spend and make the serious changes we need in January, or will he just play it safe...



...who am I kidding

honest question, do people have confidence in Moyes to buy the right players?

he got good players for Everton, but already have plenty of them type of players at United.

brinty wrote: »

If this is a possibility do you real think the board would give him massive money to invest knowing they might have to sack him and not have a budget for a new manager to invest in the playershe'd want..

ive come to the realisation that as long as Fergie is involved, Moyes will not be sacked, so i think we are stuck with him for a long long time. the chances of Moyes being sacked, are slim to be honest.

i would think the current thinking is that we pick up close to maximum points before january and then sign 2 or 3 players in the window, which will give us the push towards 3rd, 2nd and hopefully top. it looks unlikely, but there is a remote chance it could still happen.

keane2097

Your Airbag wrote: »

It thought that was my job? :pac:

Glad to have someone else to lighten the load

I was out of line that other time, apologies.

Burt Macklin

Few pointers for Moyesie
1. Sell Young and Anderson In January. Consider ditching Welbeck and Cleverley in the summer too.
2. Start playing Zaha/Janusaj if you must play a winger.
3. Sign a midfielder (or two) in January
4. Get RVP and Carrick back as soon as possible
5. Reduce rotation. Evans is better than Vidic on current form
6. Retire Giggs

jonnyfingers

homerjay2005 wrote: »

this is something that we commented on last night, the last 12 or 13 mins, plus the added 4 mins, the team was completely flat and we barely got into the Everton half - as i said earlier, the entire stadium could sense what was coming, they had 2 great chances before hand to go 1-0 up.

added in the Southampton and Cardiff goals and poor finish to games like West Brom and Liverpool, i think we need to start looking here as a starting point as to why our performances are slacking towards the end of the game.

you could argue that we have not scored any late wins (Stoke at a stretch) and have 5 points dropped due to late goals already and that is not united style.

I think our performance towards the end of games, or lack thereof, has a lot to do with the supposed increase in fitness training. I think it will benefit some of the players, Rooney for example and the younger players. However the likes of RVP, Vidic and Carrick don't really need extra fitness training in my opinion, yet they seem to have suffered from more injuries this season than they have before. Now it might purely be coincidence but surely if training is contributing towards it Moyes and his fitness team must realise it and make changes accordingly.

It will be interesting to see if this extra fitness training pays off in the second half of the season. But I've seen nothing so far to show it's having any sort of positive effect.

Burt Macklin

homerjay2005 wrote: »

from the guardian, normally seen as a very good source.

Anyone else here remember the big #GuardianExclusive about Bale to Inter a while back?

Your Airbag

Pro. F wrote: »

The Guardian are definitely not above working on incomplete evidence and sloppy logic to get an angle for a story. They were proven wrong about when the clause expired yet they never bothered to doubt whether they were also wrong about the amount of the clause.

The Guardian at times is a tabloid masqureading as a broadsheet.

Woodward seems to be damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. His failing to offer enough, his inability to put together a deal is mentioned time and time again despite Everton, Barca, Madrid and Bilbao all going on record saying they did not want to sell the players we were in for and multiple sources provided.

As time goes on the voices repeating the Woody is a fool angle become less and less and it seems to be originating from very few posters.

bucketybuck

Liam O wrote: »

5th-10th is a joke of a statement.

Pro. F wrote: »

To claim that 10th-5th is the correct level for this collection of players is laughable.

And yet here we are, 9th in the table and looking worse every time we play.

keane2097

bucketybuck wrote: »

And yet here we are, 9th in the table and looking worse every time we play.

Do you really think they looked worse last night than previously?

onemorechance

NiallMH93 wrote: »

Few pointers for Moyesie
1. Sell Young and Anderson In January. Consider ditching Welbeck and Cleverley in the summer too.
2. Start playing Zaha/Janusaj if you must play a winger.
3. Sign a midfielder (or two) in January
4. Get RVP and Carrick back as soon as possible
5. Reduce rotation. Evans is better than Vidic on current form
6. Retire Giggs

. . . 4 5 6! :pac:

tallaghtmick

I actually love how some of you posters have arch enemies on here

Who wants to be mine?

bullvine

tallaghtmick wrote: »

I actually love how some of you posters have arch enemies on here

Who wants to be mine?

Me! Tallaght SCUM!:D

ronjo

tallaghtmick wrote: »

I actually love how some of you posters have arch enemies on here

Who wants to be mine?

I hate Tallaght almost as much as I hate people called Mick !

Lord TSC

tallaghtmick wrote: »

I actually love how some of you posters have arch enemies on here

Who wants to be mine?

Oh, oh! Pick me, pick me!

It's been years since I had a nemesis...

Headshot

tallaghtmick wrote: »

I actually love how some of you posters have arch enemies on here

Who wants to be mine?

****er you never realised you have one?

bullvine

I just realized I know a Mick from Tallaght who is a United fan!