Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14 Mod warning post #718

Pro. F

Robson99 wrote: »

If you cant win the midfield how do you expect to win any game. Thats why we are not scoring in the big games. We are being dominated in the middle and creating nothing from it. You dont need me to explain what two proper middle of the park players do for a team

Teams win games while losing the midfield battle all the time.

Robson99

Pro. F wrote: »

Teams win games while losing the midfield battle all the time.

By luck. Didnt see us beating Barca in either of the two ECFs while losing the midfield battle

Al Capwned

Robson99 wrote: »

By luck. Didnt see us beating Barca in either of the two ECFs while losing the midfield battle

While picking those two as examples to prove your point, it would be relatively easy to pick any number of games to disprove it..


Brilliant defensive performances can win games, as can brilliant attacking performances. Neither of which are dependant on 'winning the midfield battle'.

Danye

Pro. F wrote: »

Teams win games while losing the midfield battle all the time.

Can you highlight an example of this happening?

Pro. F

Robson99 wrote: »

In hindsight I would probably only have 3. Zabaleta would get in ahead of Rafael.

The problem is that we have nothing in the midfield in comparison to either of them.

Even if it is only 3 players. 3 players in the best 11 out of three teams is close to an even share. And you are still forgetting that doing well in a league also comes down to the depth of your squad, not just the quality of your best players.

The problem for us is a lack of quality in central midfield. The problem for Chelsea is an equal lack of quality in strikers and the problem for City is an equal lack of quality in goal. Those other positions are all at least as important as central midfield.

Backstreet Moyes

Pro. F wrote: »

Full backs =/= centre backs

lol at Hart being the second best 'keeper in the league. Seriously, there's no way you believe that.

Torres, Ba and Eto'o is as average a collection of strikers as Carrick, Fellaini, Cleverley, Jones and Giggs is for a collection of centre backs. Chelsea's strikers can get unreal service just like our midfielders can get away with delivering substandard service because we have unreal forwards.

Do you seriously think it is not an advantage having much better service even if your strikers are not as lethal. Sure they may not be as good as Rooney or RVP but they are good strikers.

I think having world class service to good strikers is far better than having world class strikers with very little service.

Your Airbag

Pro. F wrote: »

It's the people saying that the squad aren't good enough to be in the top 4 and that it needs rebuilding that I am disagreeing with.

I'd have those expectations too and feel confident we will make top four. If we do Moyes should get a chance to build a squad of his own not one handed too him so even without the top four which would be a really bad I'd still be prepared to give him another season provided he is allowed to get rid of all the deadwood and make a squad of his own.

We are still in for four trophies so my expectations for the season are as follows.

Finish in the top four
Go all out to win a Cup, Carling or FA.
Have a good UCL run.

It would help Moyes to get a legitimate piece of silverware out of the sqaud in his first season even if its the Carling cup, Charity shield doesn't count.

A bonus would be a good transfer window in January where we can get a run together and challenge for the title although maybe its gone now but lets see where we are in January and who knows, an injury free squad with some new signings in the UCL knockouts and anything is possible.

onemorechance

Danye wrote: »

Can you highlight an example of this happening?

Manchester United versus everyone! :pac:

Pro. F

Danye wrote: »

Can you highlight an example of this happening?

Any game that Barca has lost over the last 10 years would be a good place to start.

Robson99

If Moyes doesnt bring in a top class middle of the park player in Jan will people be saying that it was another f**k up by himself and Woodward??

Robson99

Pro. F wrote: »

Any game that Barca has lost over the last 10 years would be a good place to start.

Thats a lot of games

sReq | uTeK

Pro. F wrote: »

You're right, you don't fúcking know. You haven't a fúcking notion what you are talking about. And for somebody with such a poor grasp of English you have some cheek throwing around the moron tag.

Our central midfield is obviously an issue, but Fellaini, Carrick, Cleverley, Jones and Giggs are at least as good as the average standard in the league and we have completed more passes than most teams we have faced this season. So we don't have no central midfield like you stupidly claim. Combine that with the fact that our forwards, CBs and GK are light years ahead of the majority of teams in the league and you have a collection of players that are easily good enough to get into the top four. It doesn't matter if we were to lose to Arsenal, City and Chelsea home and away, we still should be beating everybody else to that fourth spot.

Chelsea's midfield make up for their lack of quality up front and City's midfield and forwards make up for their lack of quality at CB and 'keeper. You claim that midfield issues can't be overcome in the same way, yet it has been done many times before. Plenty of times throughout history teams with the best midfields have failed to win in leagues because of weak defences or lack of goals up front, while the team with the better strikers and/or defenders went on to win it. Even if you don't agree with this it doesn't matter, the original point was not to do with competing with Chelsea, City and Arsenal, but getting into the top four. Currently there are 5 teams between us and that objective, none of which have squads as good as ours.

sitting on the bog typing on a smart phone, my English is perfectly fine thank you. I like how you choose to address grammer, no worries but gloss over half of my points.

Our defence is NOT light years ahead of the other contenders. Your defence is only as good as it's preforming and both ours and our midfield are shocking, so what if we have the best forwards in the league, which City would have something to say about this, we may have the best individual forwards but how good is this when their route to goal is nullified by absolute **** in the centre of the park passing left and right.

tallaghtmick

Robson99 wrote: »

How can you be sure Fergie would have played Adnan??? After all look what he did to Pogba when we were crying out for a midfielder

Ronaldo, Rooney to name two.

Pro. F

Robson99 wrote: »

Thats a lot of games

So?

Pro. F

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

sitting on the bog typing on a smart phone, my English is perfectly fine thank you. I like how you choose to address grammer, no worries but gloss over half of my points.

Our defence is NOT light years ahead of the other contenders. Your defence is only as good as it's preforming and both ours and our midfield are shocking, so what if we have the best forwards in the league, which City would have something to say about this, we may have the best individual forwards but how good is this when their route to goal is nullified by absolute **** in the centre of the park passing left and right.

I addressed all of the points you raised.

I did not say our defence was light years ahead of the other contenders and I did not say that we have the best forwards in the league. You need to read my post properly and reply to what I actually said.

I claim that we have a top level collection of CBs and that Moyes' poor management is failing to get the best out of them, so your statement about the defence only being "as good as it is performing" is meaningless. By that logic it wouldn't matter who the manager was, the performance would only ever be a reflection of the quality of the players and not the quality of the manager.

The "absolute ****" in the centre of the field is largely a down to Moyes and his rubbish tactics. Our midfield has been relatively weak for years, but it is still at least as good as the average standard in the league and has never performed this badly up to now. Fellaini, Carrick, Cleverely, Giggs and Jones is at least as good as the average standard of options for CM in the league. To deny that is ridiculous. The fact that they and the rest of the team, which is generally far above average in quality, are performing so badly is because of Moyes' poor management.

Any good manager should be able to get this squad into the top four without needing to overhaul or rebuild.

Pro. F

Nuts102 wrote: »

Do you seriously think it is not an advantage having much better service even if your strikers are not as lethal. Sure they may not be as good as Rooney or RVP but they are good strikers.

I think having world class service to good strikers is far better than having world class strikers with very little service.

I don't agree that central midfield is that much more important than forwards when competing in a league against all sorts of opposition. Imo, with an average midfield like we have then you can at least compete in most games and let the quality at either end of the pitch make the difference. But it is not all that important which one of us is right about that.

If you think that Chelsea are clearly better than us, fine. Same for City and Arsenal. I'm not pushed. But if you think that this squad is so poor that it shouldn't be expected to take fourth spot in this league than I think you are very very wrong.

Your Airbag wrote: »

I'd have those expectations too and feel confident we will make top four. If we do Moyes should get a chance to build a squad of his own not one handed too him so even without the top four which would be a really bad I'd still be prepared to give him another season provided he is allowed to get rid of all the deadwood and make a squad of his own.

We are still in for four trophies so my expectations for the season are as follows.

Finish in the top four
Go all out to win a Cup, Carling or FA.
Have a good UCL run.

It would help Moyes to get a legitimate piece of silverware out of the sqaud in his first season even if its the Carling cup, Charity shield doesn't count.

A bonus would be a good transfer window in January where we can get a run together and challenge for the title although maybe its gone now but lets see where we are in January and who knows, an injury free squad with some new signings in the UCL knockouts and anything is possible.

There is just no way that falling outside the top four with this squad is acceptable.

bucketybuck

Just seen the clip of Roy Keane and Viera in the tunnel at Highbury 2005 again.

Its an amazing scene. Forget everything else, the sheer character and leadership that people like Roy Keane brought to their teams was invaluable and sadly its really lacking in this team at the minute. Can you ever see Tom Cleverley getting in somebodies face in the tunnel? Like **** he would.

kippy

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

:rolleyes:

No. I'm going to use the public forum board available to me to discuss his position at the club and to vent my frustrations. I'm not deluded, and I know individually I don't have power, but I don't see how that is relevant to the situation at hand.

As for faith, belief and hope....there's a difference between faith and blind faith. It's why I've continually asked for people to put forward arguments as to why Moyes shouldn't be sacked because of something specific to Moyes himself. I support the club, but right now, the manager does not particularly have my support...

Blind faith is dangerous. It leads clubs and fans down dangerous paths, and could leave us believing "Nah, this year is totally going to be our year!" without anything to back it up.

I have faith in the club to rectify mistakes. I have belief and hope that the club might realise it's made a booboo, and that no one mad or idea is bigger than the club. But my faith is in the club, not the manager right now, and I've seen nothing to suggest my faith should be in Moyes.

Why Moyes shouldn't be sacked? Surely that is blatantly obvious? (They would be the same reasons he got the job in the first place, less than 6 months ago - nothing has changed in that respect.)


You dont appear to have any faith in the club itself by the looks of it because if you did you'd back the club in the decision the club has made to give Moyes the job.

Clubs like Chelsea and Man City have pi$$ed through "world class" managers over the years and fans turn against them when results don't go well over a short period of time so I don't know how replacing Moyes with a manager like Hiddink (or an other) would change the attitudes of fans such as yourself.
Ye've little patience, little idea of anything outside a sphere of a few months and absolutely no appreciation for the ins and out of the running of a club such as United. It's all about success NOW, zero patience in building something more sustainable and long lasting and frankly it's disgusting to see it.

And again, finally, the season is a long long way from being over.

keane2097

I think the difference in chance conversion rates between the elite i.e. RVP and the so-so i.e. Torres/Eto'o is pretty small and more than made up for by the greater number of chances created by the vastly more creative midfield Chelsea have.

AFAIK RVP's conversion rate last year was ~18%, I doubt Eto'o's will finish up being too far below 15% this year.

Headshot

Never knew rvp played rugby too

keane2097

Headshot wrote: »

Never knew rvp played rugby too

Do you want me to make a video with lego men explaining it?

Headshot

keane2097 wrote: »

Do you want me to make a video with lego men explaining it?

You have to much time

keane2097

Headshot wrote: »

You have to much time

I'll be in Angola all of next week so you better make up your mind fast!

Headshot

keane2097 wrote: »

I'll be in Angola all of next week so you better make up your mind fast!

Better not bring that spider back with ya

keane2097

Headshot wrote: »

Better not bring that spider back with ya

ugh stop I actually have pretty bad arachnophobia and the first thing that came up when I googled the place was that picture and I almost had a panic attack!

UnitedIrishman

bucketybuck wrote: »

Just seen the clip of Roy Keane and Viera in the tunnel at Highbury 2005 again.

Its an amazing scene. Forget everything else, the sheer character and leadership that people like Roy Keane brought to their teams was invaluable and sadly its really lacking in this team at the minute. Can you ever see Tom Cleverley getting in somebodies face in the tunnel? Like **** he would.

Unfortunately, that has gone out of the game now. The change in the game from 1996 to present day is nuts. Emotion is no longer seen as a driving force but rather as something that clouds judgement. It's a pity but it's the way the higher powers would prefer the game be played - if they had their way, every side would play tiki taka football with no tackling and beautiful goals. Those games with Arsenal from 98-05 were the best battles.

Pro. F

keane2097 wrote: »

I think the difference in chance conversion rates between the elite i.e. RVP and the so-so i.e. Torres/Eto'o is pretty small and more than made up for by the greater number of chances created by the vastly more creative midfield Chelsea have.

AFAIK RVP's conversion rate last year was ~18%, I doubt Eto'o's will finish up being too far below 15% this year.

The variation in quality of what is counted as a chance must be enormous, so I wouldn't think chance conversion rates tell the whole story of the quality of strikers.

Your Airbag

RobertKK

Rumour is Gundogan will join Real Madrid... http://www.marca.com/2013/12/05/en/football/real_madrid/1386270037.html

Johnny Giles thinks United will sign Sneijder.

keane2097

Pro. F wrote: »

The variation in quality of what is counted as a chance must be enormous, so I wouldn't think chance conversion rates tell the whole story of the quality of strikers.

I imagine it ought to average out over a decent sample

IvySlayer

Headshot wrote: »

Better not bring that spider back with ya

I cannot sleep now

homerjay2005

some lad claims to have been on the piss with moyes last night.

http://www.101greatgoals.com/blog/david-moyes-drowned-his-sorrows-after-everton-defeat-called-former-fans-a-fing-disgrace/

he has since deleted his twitter account.

Your Airbag

homerjay2005 wrote: »

some lad claims to have been on the piss with moyes last night.

http://www.101greatgoals.com/blog/david-moyes-drowned-his-sorrows-after-everton-defeat-called-former-fans-a-fing-disgrace/

he has since deleted his twitter account.

Of all the things that ever happened. This happened the most.

2moreMinutes

RobertKK wrote: »

Johnny Giles thinks United will sign Sneijder.

Johnny Giles knows as much about Sneijder or any other European based player as I do about Tom Brady, i.e, an incey wincey little bit of irrelevant info that's gathered from watching Sky Sports but which I repeat with great authority in the hope that people think I know what I'm on about.

2moreMinutes

homerjay2005 wrote: »

some lad claims to have been on the piss with moyes last night.

http://www.101greatgoals.com/blog/david-moyes-drowned-his-sorrows-after-everton-defeat-called-former-fans-a-fing-disgrace/

he has since deleted his twitter account.

Theres something about Moyes that I reckon would make him a great drinking partner after work on a Wednesday. Theres a cheeky twinkle in his eye or something.

kryogen

Just got to watch the full 90 there now

A couple of instant initial thoughts

We weren't terrible, a little unlucky not be leading, maybe comfortably by the time they scored

Which brings me nicely on to, surely its time to put Valencia out to pasture now? He isn't a winger, and his demonstration of how to let your man stroll in to score at the back post would indicate he isn't a right back

Devil08

2moreMinutes wrote: »

Johnny Giles knows as much about Sneijder or any other European based player as I do about Tom Brady, i.e, an incey wincey little bit of irrelevant info that's gathered from watching Sky Sports but which I repeat with great authority in the hope that people think I know what I'm on about.

Bill: so john, what do you think of Utds opposition tonight and also who do you think they main threat will be

John (sitting looking straight ahead confused with neck buried in shoulders) : well to be honest bill I havnt seen much of them so I can't really answer that one

Okie doke well leave it there folks

BMMachine

the frailties that people pointed out over the past 2 seasons are coming home to roost i feel really proved how good ferguson really was by winning so comfortably last season, even though I feel that was down to city, chelsea and arsenal kept slipping up.
the midfield needs to change. smalling isnt the guy. good squad player, but not the guy you want starting. fellani needs a little time to settle. once he finds his feet he will be outstanding for you, imo. utd need another top class attacker that can compliment rooney and rvp. if you look at chelsea, city and to an extent arsenal they have reams of players for those front positions and i really feel utd lost out a lot in the transfer market. not sure why, they have the money. a guy like willian was bought pretty swiftly by chelsea and i have to wonder why utd let so many go by in the market. not sure moyes is entirely to blame on that front.

I still think they will pick up but finishing outside the top 4 is now a distinct possibility whereas that opinion would have been (somewhat rightfully) laughed at in the summer

DM_7

United midfield problem needs to be expanded to include the wide players.

The way Valencia is playing, the way young is playing, Welbeck, how Kagawa and Nani have no form and rarely play 90 minutes is a bigger problem than the central midfield issues right now.

Considering how much of the play goes through them it is vital they play well. Very little happening from those players and is undermining a lot of good play.

Whoever is in charge of 'Crossing The Ball Into The Box 101' at the training sessions, can someone please wake that fúcker up?

Seriously, I have to assume that there are hours upon hours of footage of the team's most recent performances reviewed and analysed each week by various staff/coaching members. When is it going to finally hit home that our wingers/FBs for the most part can't deliver a precision-aimed pass into the box? Not even IF the opposing team suddenly fell to the ground, still conscious but motionless like in that fúcked-up Radiohead video...

Why are you all lying on the ground? Is it because you can't tell us?

No, we just have a bet going with Big Sam that you can't cross your legs.

Somebody said in an earlier post that it is like Moyes is trying to play the players into form, that wasn't a bad point. If this is the case though I yearn for a different approach to be taken with Antonio Valencia. The thread is alight with an underlying theme of how long David Moyes should be given. So I'm going to apply that thought to the players, or one in this case. I can honestly say now that I am completely over that season Tony V had for us. The man was once referred to as 'beast' and 'puma' around these parts and beyond, he used to deliver those precision-aimed crosses high and low to Rooney for fun most weeks in the EPL.

Now that his bad run has long exceeded his good run in both time and games, it is unfortunate for me that I feel this way and think 'ah fúck it anyway' when I see his name in the starting line-up. Not an Ashley Young kinda sick and frustrated, but still dread. While Nani and Januzaj are advertising cars for Chevrolet on the bench, Valencia is making the opposition's game all the easier, and surely the time has come where he needs a run in the dugout from where our most creative attacking players can be freed.

As for where I am on Moyes. There are far too many individual player issues and negative echoes from the glory days of Sir Alex still lingering around for me to be calling for DM's head just right now. Yes this is absolutely shít to watch most weeks and all the more frustrating because we seemed to be on somewhat of an upward curve and keeping with the frontrunners only 3 weeks ago. But, the CM situation is absolutely abysmal and always (i.e for the best part of 5 years!) has been.

How long am I willing to give the new manager? Outside of a bottom to mid-table finish this season, I would like to see the man go through 2 more transfer windows to get the squad and first 11 that he himself wants. So by that reckoning, I guess that I would know this time next year, probably a bit earlier.

In saying that it would take a mid-table to lower placed finish this season for me to call for a change, that means I would be willing to look at something like "7. Manchester United" come May 11th next and still be okay to see DM survive the summer. There would have to be unprecedented expenditure for the club in that case. Actually there is that need in any case.

There is a hefty investment needed in our squad and so much dead wood and failed potential to be addressed, and any manager in the game would have to deal with it on arrival at this point. I want to see Moyes do what he can without being rash in January, but seriously sort/clean and replenish the house next summer whether we finish 1st this season or 6th. While I understand that CL money is important to the club's dealings, we did survive and thrive another day after those times we got fúcked out in the group stages, where the money received wouldn't be enough to sign a world-beater anyway.

If David Moyes is not the man to lead this club for the next 6 years (as per his contract) and continue the glory of the last 20 years, I would like to know because we'd have given the man who was hand-picked to be Fergie's successor at least a season at the club before we rushed for the next fix.

Alex Ferguson, the game's greatest manager, and Robin Van Persie, the league's greatest striker at the time, won us the title last year. Any manager will need time to deal with the team's inadequacies. David Moyes didn't make Wayne Rooney let the ball go between his legs 3 yards in front of an open goal last night, or any of the other countless momentary offensive/defensive lapses which cost us points so far. Yes Moye's must be questioned, but the players themselves have their own share of the blame for the club's current league standing.

tallaghtmick

http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/12040/9058310/martinez-upgrade

Good read there about Moyes.

*DISCLAIMER* I did not write this :P

Obviously some wont agree.

brinty

RobertKK wrote: »

Rumour is Gundogan will join Real Madrid... http://www.marca.com/2013/12/05/en/football/real_madrid/1386270037.html

Johnny Giles thinks United will sign Sneijder.

Bloody hell, quoting Marca, sure its the real madrid daily new don't ye know, the number of players they've supposedly agreed deals with that never happen, although i can see Gundogan going there..

If he does could we try and plunder Madrid for a couple of players in january

Alonso/Kheidera/modric...surely one of these will lose out if Gundogan comes in, solid player in midfield who can play at the base in a 2 or a 3
Di maria....wide player, assist machine...playing less since the arrival of Bale and Isco, surely worth a bid
Coentrao....if we could get him in August and just failed on paper work surely he's still available, younger and better and cheaoer (due to the United taxes on transfer form english clubs) than Baines

Lord TSC

kippy wrote: »

Why Moyes shouldn't be sacked? Surely that is blatantly obvious? (They would be the same reasons he got the job in the first place, less than 6 months ago - nothing has changed in that respect.)

A lot of people will argue, and easily with the benefit of hindsight, he shouldn't have got the job six months ago in the first place.

You dont appear to have any faith in the club itself by the looks of it because if you did you'd back the club in the decision the club has made to give Moyes the job.

Clubs like Chelsea and Man City have pi$$ed through "world class" managers over the years and fans turn against them when results don't go well over a short period of time so I don't know how replacing Moyes with a manager like Hiddink (or an other) would change the attitudes of fans such as yourself.
Ye've little patience, little idea of anything outside a sphere of a few months and absolutely no appreciation for the ins and out of the running of a club such as United. It's all about success NOW, zero patience in building something more sustainable and long lasting and frankly it's disgusting to see it.

And again, finally, the season is a long long way from being over.

See, back to the same old, same old arguments. "We're not Chelsea or City!". "We HAVE to give him time and you have no choice over it". Only now, you're attempting to throw in a bit of "You're not a real fan" malarkey with it as well, attempting blatant misrepresentation of the arguments you're facing.

Oranage2

None of uniteds forwards are renowned for heading so why put in high crosses?

More arm chair fans are so clueless

magnumbud

Oranage2 wrote: »

None of uniteds forwards are renowned for heading so why put in high crosses?

More arm chair fans are so clueless

lol are you serious? RVP and Hernandez are deadly in the air. rooney aint too shabby either.

Renn

brinty wrote: »

Di maria....wide player, assist machine...playing less since the arrival of Bale and Isco, surely worth a bid

10 starts this season and 3 sub appearances.

22 starts last season and 10 sub appearances.

Mitch Connor

2moreMinutes wrote: »

Theres something about Moyes that I reckon would make him a great drinking partner after work on a Wednesday. Theres a cheeky twinkle in his eye or something.

My dad was in the same jotel the everton team used for the FA Cup final in 2009. He met Moyes in the bar that night - and says Moyes was brilliant.

My dad is a chel;sea fan so ribbed him a little, but says that Moyes was ribbing him back, and generally just being very good to the fans in the hotel, despite being down after losing the cup final.

Oranage2

Mitch Connor wrote: »

My dad was in the same jotel the everton team used for the FA Cup final in 2009. He met Moyes in the bar that night - and says Moyes was brilliant.

My dad is a chel;sea fan so ribbed him a little, but says that Moyes was ribbing him back, and generally just being very good to the fans in the hotel, despite being down after losing the cup final.

I wouldn't imagine Ferguson cracking jokes after losing a final, says a lot about Moyes mentality!

Pro. F

keane2097 wrote: »

I imagine it ought to average out over a decent sample

It might average out over the course of a season, or the sample size needed might be much more than that. Neither of us know I suppose.

Either way, if the conclusion from looking at chance conversion rate is that Rooney, RvP and Hernandez aren't much better at scoring goals than Eto'o, Torres and Ba then I think that particular stat should be regarded as misleading.

Pro. F

Oranage2 wrote: »

None of uniteds forwards are renowned for heading so why put in high crosses?

More arm chair fans are so clueless

Rooney and Hernandez are excellent in the air.