Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14 Mod warning post #718

Al Capwned

Danye wrote: »

But Moyes is the manager now. It's his issue to deal with it. It wasn't up to Fergie to sort it all out before he left. Moyes has to be accountable for something.

My point is we can't be blaming Fergie for not sorting out our midfield problems. Why did Moyes not address the issue?

We can't blame Ferguson? Of course we can, and we should.

Danye

Al Capwned wrote: »

We can't blame Ferguson? Of course we can, and we should.

Why?

kona

Why are there people blaming ferguson instead of moyes?

Yea the midfield is ****e but the same team walked the league and should have knocked Real Madrid out of the champions league.

Moyes is the manager, he's responsible for this ****e nobody else. Just like the manager in your job is responsible for what goes on in your department .

The team is not achieving the results it should, this fact is moyes responsibility.

Your Airbag

Al Capwned

Danye wrote: »

Why?

Surely you don't need me to explain why the manager up until last season is responsible for the personnel currently in the squad...

Moyes is responsible only for the players he brought in (or decided to keep, you might say) since he joined. I would have liked to see more investment in the playing staff yes, but you seem to be pushing the opinion that it's Moyes' doing and not Ferguson's.
They're not mutually exclusive however, absolving Ferguson of any blame is simply wrong.

Edit - For clarity, I'm holding Ferguson partly responsible for the state of our midfield, not specifically our current form or run of results.

homerjay2005

Danye wrote: »

Why?

its very obvious that Fergie gave Moyes the wrong expectations of the squad or more to the point the first 11.

Burt Macklin

Danye wrote: »

Why?

Possibly for not buying a central midfielder since Hargreaves and Anderson in 07/08, even though it was our weakest position, as demonstrated by two whippings by Barcelona. Buying player like Jones, Young, Bebe, Buttner instead. Bringing Scholes out of retirement to fill a gap, and then not replacing him

EDIT: Forgot about Powell, but he's a youth player and doesn't really count.

Rayne Wooney

I don't get why people are now tainting Moyes' time at Everton, he did very very well there.

Dicky Pride

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

I don't get why people are now tainting Moyes' time at Everton, he did very very well there.

He did well there. Doing very very well would be winning trophies.

Doing well at Everton does not a man Utd manager make

billyhead

alot of kneejerk reactions going on here, Moyes will be here at thend of the season and we will have to judge him then on Uniteds final league standing. He wont solve this midfield crisis in January because top players don't move then especially with a World cup around the corner. We need to clear out some of the deadwood though. the likes of Anderson and Young are just not good enough, Rio no longer has the pegs and has lost a yard of space and even though I hate to say it but I think Vidic career is coming to an end (just not good enough). Next Summer massive investment is needed, It should have been sorted out last summer with a Marquee signing to build on the league win and not rest on our laurels., Instead we go out and sign an average player and waste a lot of money in doing so. Hopefully the board has learned its lesson and next summer open the purse strings early (bring in some genuine quality) and not leave it till the last day of the window

homerjay2005

we picked up 38 points from the corresponding 15 fixtures last year, 16 more than this season.

after 15 games last year, we were 17 points ahead of Liverpool, today we are 8 behind them.

we were 15 ahead of Arsenal, we will go 15 behind them if they win tomorrow.

if anybody is telling me this is down to the players, then you seriously need to get a grip. other clubs improved their squads, signed top class players and they moved on.

we stayed stuck in our own shadow and signed Fellaini for £27.5 million.

Lord TSC

You wonder how many excuses people can come up with.

It's Fergie's fault for not signing players/being in the stands/being too good at his job.
It's Woodward's fault for not wanting to spend money/spending too much money.
It's the players' fault for being out of form/injured/too old.

It feels like for some people, it's everyones fault for everything except Moyes, who apparently is absolutely faultless in our dreadful form.

Backstreet Moyes

Something is just gone wrong somewhere. Moyes was not my first choice but he is a good manager much better than he has shown so far. I do think something must be wrong behind the scenes. The fact is some blame has to go to the players some of them have been shocking so far this season. The midfield is a huge problem but the first thing needs addressed in January is a new left back.

sky88

For all the people who say moyes should go who would replace him? Cause theres no real top class manager that would go at this time and it would mean an inexperienced manager coming in imo

Blatter

Red Crow wrote: »

This is like Ferguson took a sh1t in a toilet and locked Moyes in after him and now everyone thinks it's his sh1te.

As funny as this is, I just can't agree. Fergie had this team transitioning in attack FAR better. He had them getting more shots on target from better positions which = more goals. Defensively he had them not conceding as many dangerous shots on target which = less goals conceded.

This is a coaching issue far moreso than the players not being good enough. There is no way a squad which contains the likes of RvP, Rooney, Hernandez, Kagawa, Nani, Januzaj, Vidic, Rafael, DDG etc. should be languishing so far off the pace in the league.

Last season we averaged something like 2.2 goals per game at OT, this season it's close to 1. Sunderland have as many goals at home ffs, that's a complete joke. And you can't attribute these huge statistical differences to 'RvP bailing us out more last season', it's clearly far deeper than that.

billyhead

sky88 wrote: »

For all the people who say moyes should go who would replace him? Cause theres no real top class manager that would go at this time and it would mean an inexperienced manager coming in imo

Exactly thats why we should leave him in place until the end of the season. The aim now should be a top 4 finish and a good run in the FA cup and hopefully but doubt it in the Champions League. At the end of the season I would go all out to get Jurgen Klopp as the next manager and also sign a couple of world class players (but as we well know who would want to come to rainy, depressing Manchester)

Lord TSC

sky88 wrote: »

For all the people who say moyes should go who would replace him? Cause theres no real top class manager that would go at this time and it would mean an inexperienced manager coming in imo

I said this earlier and will again; I think it speaks volumes that people are unsure we can get a good manager. We're Man United, and apparently we can't even attract a good manager....but we're to have faith we can get star players in the transfer window?

kona

Its manchester united not crystal palace. Of course we can get a class manager along with world class players.

Its the dicking around that ****s it up. If moyes was offered ozil and turned him down he needs a p45. If a world class player becomes available to you , you buy him.

yabadabado

Just watched The Class of 92.Brilliant documentary ,really enjoyable.Only negative was that **** Tony Blair appearing in it.

Took my mind right of that shocking display today.

billyhead

kona wrote: »

Its manchester united not crystal palace. Of course we can get a class manager along with world class players.

Its the dicking around that ****s it up. If moyes was offered ozil and turned him down he needs a p45. If a world class player becomes available to you , you buy him.

London is a far better place to live then Manchester

Rayne Wooney

I think it's time the club build an airstrip in London so players can live there.

If it's really that big of an issue

bad2dabone

A major cause for the nearly 30 point swing in fortunes between Utd and Arsenal at this point between this season and last is confidence, Ozil arrives and everyone at arsenal gets a huge boost in confidence and our performances show it. Moyes arrives and United don't seem inspired in the least, shedding points at home to lesser sides, and playing without their swagger. Even last season when they were playing poorly there was a confidence that they'd get the results they needed.
The more these kind of results happen the more difficult it will be for moyes to turn this around - the players he's trying to inspire are champions. Multiple times. He's not.
United should have gone bigger with their managerial choice.

kona

billyhead wrote: »

London is a far better place to live then Manchester

So? the top two teams in england the last few years are from where? How many world class players are in both teams? I dont buy that argument, your not sentenced there for 30 years (unless your giggs;) ), maybe 8 years max. Get the money get the glory retire to wherever ya like!

niallo27

bad2dabone wrote: »

A major cause for the nearly 30 point swing in fortunes between Utd and Arsenal at this point between this season and last is confidence, Ozil arrives and everyone at arsenal gets a huge boost in confidence and our performances show it. Moyes arrives and United don't seem inspired in the least, shedding points at home to lesser sides, and playing without their swagger. Even last season when they were playing poorly there was a confidence that they'd get the results they needed.
The more these kind of results happen the more difficult it will be for moyes to turn this around - the players he's trying to inspire are champions. Multiple times. He's not.
United should have gone bigger with their managerial choice.

Shouldnt they start playing like champions themselves as well, its too easy for players to hide behind the manager these days. Chelsea players did it last year with rafa and it was similar with a lot of players under hodgson although he was well out of his dept.

The_Kew_Tour

niallo27 wrote: »

Shouldnt they start playing like champions themselves as well, its too easy for players to hide behind the manager these days. Chelsea players did it last year with rafa and it was similar with a lot of players under hodgson although he was well out of his dept.

I actually agree with you here.

Rio for example pissed me right off this week.

"Oh im on 100 grand a week, but ill go on twitter telling the world why my performances have been pish because i cant get myself focused for game"

Bollocks.

Rayne Wooney

Can we all just agree that it's not just Moyes' fault, not just Fergie's fault, not just the players' fault but a combination of all 3?

It's stupid to believe one factor had us from winning the league to being mid-table.

Yes things need to change, Carrick coming back, RVP being fully fit, some new players coming in in January and we can hopefully compete for 4th/3rd place.

bad2dabone

niallo27 wrote: »

Shouldnt they start playing like champions themselves as well, its too easy for players to hide behind the manager these days. Chelsea players did it last year with rafa and it was similar with a lot of players under hodgson although he was well out of his dept.

absolutely. You're absolutely right. but they are hiding behind him now, its plain to see that some of the players are not playing the way man u players should be playing, and they bear some of the responsibility.
I feel a bit sorry for moyes, as he's not a clown or anything like that. But it seems to me that he'll either have to be given the time to build his own Manchester United side, or the pressure on him will become to much and the board will pull the trigger. It was going to be an impossible job to follow Ferguson. However if say someone like a Mourinho was given the task I don't think the fans would be on his back as much.

The_Kew_Tour

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Can we all just agree that it's not just Moyes' fault, not just Fergie's fault, not just the players' fault but a combination of all 3?

This.

niallo27

bad2dabone wrote: »

absolutely. You're absolutely right. but they are hiding behind him now, its plain to see that some of the players are not playing the way man u players should be playing, and they bear some of the responsibility.
I feel a bit sorry for moyes, as he's not a clown or anything like that. But it seems to me that he'll either have to be given the time to build his own Manchester United side, or the pressure on him will become to much and the board will pull the trigger. It was going to be an impossible job to follow Ferguson. However if say someone like a Mourinho was given the task I don't think the fans would be on his back as much.

They cant sack him though can they before the end of the season, it will look bad for everyone at the club including ferguson.

bad2dabone

niallo27 wrote: »

They cant sack him though can they before the end of the season, it will look bad for everyone at the club including ferguson.

Agreed, he won't be sacked, not a chance. But he's going to be in for a hell of an annual review come the end of the season!

Blatter

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Can we all just agree that it's not just Moyes' fault, not just Fergie's fault, not just the players' fault but a combination of all 3?

It's stupid to believe one factor had us from winning the league to being mid-table.

Yes things need to change, Carrick coming back, RVP being fully fit, some new players coming in in January and we can hopefully compete for 4th/3rd place.

It may be a combination to a certain extent but Moyes' tactics and how he has the team transitioning is by far the biggest factor as to where the team is now.

homerjay2005

Your Airbag wrote: »

On the plus side we are actually talking about what happened and not some Woodward shi1te although it didn't stop one poster bringing his name up at every given opportunity.

funny enough that you should bring your buddy up. i was looking through some old posts and i seen this gem from you before the window closed -

Your Airbag wrote:

Woody and Moyes won't be perfect or hero's by any means. They didn't cover themselves in glory at times and made some errors

If we get Fellaini and Herrera i would mark them 7.5/10

Fellaini only 4/10

so funny enough you jump up like a salmon everytime i slag off Woodie, but the transfer window you keep defending him over, is only a 4 out of 10 from you. well now, thats certainly embarassing for you aint it? i think its very strange that you get so wound up about Woodie, when you ranked his performance as very poor.

also, on multiple occasions youve had a go a me and others over our claim that we turned down Ozil and you called me on it, saying id nothing to back it up and i heard it from my "mates".....funningly enough, one of the first people to bring it up, was yourself.

Your Airbag wrote:

The independent are saying we were offered Ozil for 40m and refused to take him. They also say we have pulled out of the race for Willian.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/f...l-8772356.html

indeed, youve also had multiple goes at me over Thiago also, saying the deal was never on and i am wrong saying Moyes pulled out of it....funningly enough, i came accross this post from one of your best buddies in mid June, claiming (like practically every other outlet in europe) that the deal was done.

On Twitter, tweets are saying it has been announced on Spanish radio stations that the deal is pretty much done. I really don't want to believe any of this after Wesley, Hazard, Lucas etc.

But my God, it gets the mouth watering.

I actually find Twitter quite quick and accurate for footy stories tbh. By tracing the source, you can quickly establish it's authenticity.

days later, moyes said about Thiago "he is not a priority"......

i suggest you stop trying to have cheap digs at people and from now on, start concentrating on yourself.

kryogen

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

I actually agree with you here.

Rio for example pissed me right off this week.

"Oh im on 100 grand a week, but ill go on twitter telling the world why my performances have been pish because i cant get myself focused for game"

Bollocks.

Is that what he said on Twitter? Because its not what he said on camera, what he said on camera was pretty understandable and he did not say anything inflammatory, just said that all managers do things differently and players just have to get on with it.

Danye

Al Capwned wrote: »

Surely you don't need me to explain why the manager up until last season is responsible for the personnel currently in the squad...

Moyes is responsible only for the players he brought in (or decided to keep, you might say) since he joined. I would have liked to see more investment in the playing staff yes, but you seem to be pushing the opinion that it's Moyes' doing and not Ferguson's.
They're not mutually exclusive however, absolving Ferguson of any blame is simply wrong.

Edit - For clarity, I'm holding Ferguson partly responsible for the state of our midfield, not specifically our current form or run of results.

But it's the same personal that won the league last year.

Moyes is responsible for the players he also didn't bring in. He came into the squad, didn't strengthen the midfield apart from MF. Our midfield is now performing poorly and it's being shown up for what it is and it's Fergie's fault?

DM_7

Lots of issues at the club can't argue with many of the issues raised. One of the biggest is the way the team is set up by Moyes. Instead of a style that gets the best from the players available its a set up to play safe and play percentages. I wasn't expecting it at all. He has made too many mistakes so far.

The level of effort and intensity against Arsenal compared to the last two home games and West Brom with similar set ups is a big worry as well, for me the players have to share some of the blame for that.

If Moyes is going to survive then a strong response is needed before xmas, players included.

The_Kew_Tour

kryogen wrote: »

Is that what he said on Twitter? Because its not what he said on camera, what he said on camera was pretty understandable and he did not say anything inflammatory, just said that all managers do things differently and players just have to get on with it.

Does not sound like he justs wants to get on with it here

"This manager's a bit different in that he doesn't name the team beforehand. You don't really get to know the team,"

"The old manager used to give you a little bit of an idea if you'd be playing and stuff.
"When you know you're playing, the intensity goes up a little bit more on match day. That's what you need to try to make sure you're doing, even if you don't know you'll be playing – to try to get to that intensity you'd be at when you know you're playing.
"It's hard. It's hard to do that mentally because you spend a lot of nervous energy thinking: 'Am I playing' or 'Am I not playing?' and you're just going round in circles in your head and turning into a madman."

J. Marston

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Neville just gave his reasoning of why Moyes should be given time


@GNev2: “@BobsyYdwI: @GNev2 Why though? Changing managers hasnt done Chelsea any harm”

Morals / principals/ philosophy and history!!!

Oh shut up, Neville.

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Can we all just agree that it's not just Moyes' fault, not just Fergie's fault, not just the players' fault but a combination of all 3?

It's stupid to believe one factor had us from winning the league to being mid-table.

Yes things need to change, Carrick coming back, RVP being fully fit, some new players coming in in January and we can hopefully compete for 4th/3rd place.

That's just not going to happen this year. 3 of the top 4 is already decided (Arsenal, Chelsea, City) and Liverpool, Everton and Spurs are all much better than us this season.

There's no good outcome to this, in my opinion. A part of me wants United to finish 7th or 8th which will guarantee Moyes sacking and avoids the Europa League and gives us something of a fresh start with a new manager but that will also result in losing most of our quality players.

niallo27

J. Marston wrote: »

Oh shut up, Neville.



That's just not going to happen this year. 3 of the top 4 is already decided (Arsenal, Chelsea, City) and Liverpool, Everton and Spurs are all much better than us this season.

There's no good outcome to this, in my opinion. A part of me wants United to finish 7th or 8th which will guarantee Moyes sacking and avoids the Europa League and gives us something of a fresh start with a new manager but that will also result in losing most of our quality players.

Chelsea lost again today, they dont look anything special so far this season. There is a reason they are behind liverpool in the table and well of arsenal, they havent been that good.

Lord TSC

niallo27 wrote: »

Chelsea lost again today, they dont look anything special so far this season. There is a reason they are behind liverpool in the table and well of arsenal, they havent been that good.

Sums it up that Jose is having a rocky start to his tenure at Chelsea, and still has them third....

kryogen

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Does not sound like he justs wants to get on with it here

Did you actually watch the thing on tv?

newballsplease

Looked at Tom Cleverleys mentions on twitter....
Such abuse he gets!

The_Kew_Tour

kryogen wrote: »

Did you actually watch the thing on tv?

No. What did he say on tv that was different to the quotes?

bad2dabone

J. Marston wrote: »

will also result in losing most of our quality players.

If that scenario occurs I don't see you losing many players, who would you lose? maybe Rooney - but he's wanted out before. Maybe RVP - but he'll be 31, and I doubt he'll be going anywhere.
I don't really see you losing anyone you can't replace. For most of the players you have Man Utd will be the pinnacle of their careers - the only step above man U is Barca/Real/Bayern and those teams don't have need of any of your players. (maybe Barca would be after DeGea but probably not)

kryogen

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

No. What did he say on tv that was different to the quotes?

You get no sense of tone from the quotes

There was also much more to it then just those isolated quotes.

All I can say is, watching it I thought Rio sounded disappointed to be not playing as much as he would like (understandably) but he certainly towed the party line. He wasn't criticising the manager.

The_Kew_Tour

kryogen wrote: »

You get no sense of tone from the quotes

There was also much more to it then just those isolated quotes.

All I can say is, watching it I thought Rio sounded disappointed to be not playing as much as he would like (understandably) but he certainly towed the party line. He wasn't criticising the manager.

Should not have brought up what a previous manger had done though.

Only giving the media the story they want.

kryogen

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Should not have brought up what a previous manger had done though.

Only giving the media the story they want.

It was part of the whole thing though. To contrast the new regime with the old, he also mentioned how its nothing new to him to have different ideas with different managers having played for several over the course of his career

ericzeking

Can't believe posters and there have been a few, who want us to do even worse to try and force through a manager change....it really is poor form and makes such little sense.

Lord TSC

Yeah, I want Moyes gone but I certainly don't want us losing games.

That said, I can understand the mindset; I've come to accept he's the wrong man for the job now, but a win at Villa will only drag out something that is becoming more and more inevitable now.

Wonder when we'll see the "United are reaching out to managers" stories will start to pop up...

Mocha Joe

ericzeking wrote: »

Can't believe posters and there have been a few, who want us to do even worse to try and force through a manager change....it really is poor form and makes such little sense.

Makes it very very hard to read about football on the internet with idiots like that around.

Jimmy Iovine

billyhead wrote: »

London is a far better place to live then Manchester

None of the players live in Manchester. They live about 10 miles away in possibly the most affluent area in the country - Wilmslow and Hale.