Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14 Mod warning post #718

Danye

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Who had 3 summers to address things and did nothing though?

Not all Moyes fault.

But Fergie was able to make the most out of the squad and he was successful.

kryogen

Danye wrote: »

He's a reasonably respected coach from what I can remember. Think S&C would be his area of expertise.

He seems to know a fair bit about Moyes and his methods which makes you think somebody from within the squad has been talking to him? (RVP being the obvious one)

He bitched about the appointment in the first place, that would be before the likes of RVP worked with him, so I doubt that.

His complaints about Moyes have been the same since then, he has dinosaur techniques etc

Don't know how much he actually knows about his techniques and I highly doubt it has come from anyone in the current squad. Why would RVP be most likely actually? Do they know each other well? They could have a close personal relationship of course, but then again they may not

The_Kew_Tour

Danye wrote: »

But Fergie was able to make the most out of the squad and he was successful.

Its been a squad that has been crying out for players since Summer 2011.

kryogen

SirDelboy18 wrote: »

He was a coach for Holland, South Korea and Russia at various Euros and World Cups throughout the past 15 years.

Was/is a fitness consultant for many clubs including Barcelona, City and Chelsea.

Worked with (still does) Bellamy pretty closely and was pretty heavily acclaimed for helping Bellamy to the most sustained injury free run of his career. Also advises Robben, among other high profile players. Bellamy never shuts up about him really.

Was assistant manager of Wales under Speed but as noted attracted a lot of bad publicity when he claimed it was Speed's wish to see him manage Wales. I don't think that episode discredits him as Kryogen tried to make out. He has been relatively outspoken over Moyes in particular and of the England national team's training methods.

I don't need to try discredit him, he does a pretty good job of making himself look like a knob all by himself, more from his wiki page even

. They were described as "selfish" by former Wales international Iwan Roberts.[15] In January 2012, he suggested that Wales should hire a foreigner as their new manager.[16] Verheijen's contract was due to expire at the end of 2011,[17] but he remained in the position until February 2012, when he resigned.[18] In December 2012 he criticised the FAW, stating that they had "destroyed" the "legacy" of Gary Speed.[19]

Destroyed the legacy my arse

He has worked as a fitness coach with Barca, Zenit, Brisbane Roar, Chelsea, City and advised Munich as to a fitness programme for Robben, he has also publicly criticised the training set ups of City, Chelsea, Spurs, Arsenal etc

He enjoys a bit of criticism.

He enjoys running his mouth.
I am not aware of his international team links so wont comment only to say, he is a mouth piece.

Danye

kryogen wrote: »

He bitched about the appointment in the first place, that would be before the likes of RVP worked with him, so I doubt that.

His complaints about Moyes have been the same since then, he has dinosaur techniques etc

Don't know how much he actually knows about his techniques and I highly doubt it has come from anyone in the current squad. Why would RVP be most likely actually? Do they know each other well? They could have a close personal relationship of course, but then again they may not

Sorry he bitched about what appointment?

I actually don't know if they know each other but he has and I think he still does work with some of the Dutch national team. When the squad gets together I'm sure they talk and swap stories.

SirDelboy18

kryogen wrote: »

I don't need to try discredit him, he does a pretty good job of making himself look like a knob all by himself, more from his wiki page even

. They were described as "selfish" by former Wales international Iwan Roberts.[15] In January 2012, he suggested that Wales should hire a foreigner as their new manager.[16] Verheijen's contract was due to expire at the end of 2011,[17] but he remained in the position until February 2012, when he resigned.[18] In December 2012 he criticised the FAW, stating that they had "destroyed" the "legacy" of Gary Speed.[19]

He has worked as a fitness coach with Barca, Zenit, Brisbane Roar, Chelsea, City and advised Munich as to a fitness programme for Robben, he has also publicly criticised the training set ups of City, Chelsea, Spurs, Arsenal etc

He enjoys a bit of criticism.

He enjoys running his mouth.

Indeed he does like to run his mouth, and is prone to bouts of bitterness - but he is still fairly respected and is close to many Dutch players, and infact maintains close relationships with many players he coaches - given his closeness to the Dutch national team and Feyenoord (ironically where a certain United player came from originally).

He has actually praised Moyes past achievements too, just for some context.

Danye

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Its been a squad that has been crying out for players since Summer 2011.

Oh I agree. But I'm just saying that Fergie was successful during that period.

kryogen

Danye wrote: »

Sorry he bitched about what appointment?

I actually don't know if they know each other but he has and I think he still does work with some of the Dutch national team. When the squad gets together I'm sure they talk and swap stories.

Moyes appointment

I have a bit of an inkling that people are assuming a lot more about this guy then they actually know you know...........

Why do you think he would be so involved with the squad when he seems to be soley a consultant these days?

Listed as a consultant for the Russian, Turkish and Australian FA's

Nothing about Holland there

kryogen

SirDelboy18 wrote: »

Indeed he does like to run his mouth, and is prone to bouts of bitterness - but he is still fairly respected and is close to many Dutch players, and infact maintains close relationships with many players he coaches - given his closeness to the Dutch national team and Feyenoord (ironically where a certain United player came from originally).

He has actually praised Moyes past achievements too, just for some context.

His closeness to the Dutch national team (who to my knowledge he no longer has much to do with) and to Feyenoord (who he publicly slated then went to consult on their pre season in 2011) is debateable to be fair

What does he have to do with Feyenoord now for example? He slated their training methods a couple of years ago, then went in and advised them on their pre season in 2011. Not exactly much o a relationship?

Danye

kryogen wrote: »

Moyes appointment

I have a bit of an inkling that people are assuming a lot more about this guy then they actually know you know...........

Why do you think he would be so involved with the squad when he seems to be soley a consultant these days?

Listed as a consultant for the Russian, Turkish and Australian FA's

Nothing about Holland there

Oh right. Sorry I didn't know what you where talking about.

No I'm not saying this fella would be involved with the Dutch squad. He works with individual Dutch players. When they go on international duty the players chat and swap stories. Then the players that work with him would probably be filling him in on all the latest gossip.

SirDelboy18

kryogen wrote: »

His closeness to the Dutch national team (who to my knowledge he no longer has much to do with) and to Feyenoord (who he publicly slated then went to consult on their pre season in 2011) is debateable to be fair

What does he have to do with Feyenoord now for example? He slated their training methods a couple of years ago, then went in and advised them on their pre season in 2011. Not exactly much o a relationship?

Much of a muchness insofar as it's (his comments) not going to have an impact in the overall scheme of things, so no point in getting into debates over Raymond Verheijen's career path. I think the criticisms of the training are certainly not the ramblings of a fool but that's down to my opinion which I have informed myself of from a variety of sources.

On a side note, it's good that you have such an extensive knowledge of Wikipedia.

kryogen

SirDelboy18 wrote: »

Much of a muchness insofar as it's (his comments) not going to have an impact in the overall scheme of things, so no point in getting into debates over Raymond Verheijen's career path. I think the criticisms of the training are certainly not the ramblings of a fool but that's down to my opinion which I have informed myself of from a variety of sources.

On a side note, it's good that you have such an extensive knowledge of Wikipedia.

How can one have an extensive knowledge of Wikipedia?

You google the guys name looking for something to correlate some of the stuff being said by people on thread, which I am sceptical about, and nothing shows up anywhere. Wiki is as handy as any to debunk these claims (Also, the info about who he still consults with is not on wiki to my knowledge so I guess I must have extensive knowledge elsewhere too yippee!)

Where are your variety of sources from out of interest now that you have got me curious?

How did you first get interested in Raymond?

monkey9

Danye wrote: »

But Fergie was able to make the most out of the squad and he was successful.

Ferguson is one of the greatest managers of all time. Said it last season, the fact that he turned an average enough squad of players into champions is testament to his abilty.

But the fact is he has left the new manager with an average squad. Moyes needs time to get rid of dead wood and bring in new players.

I am finding it very funny though seeing seeing Utd fans rubbing their eyes in the glare of reality that the dynasty is over. It's a new world now. The fact that Ferguson is gone coupled with the fact that the league now consists of silicon clubs such as Chelsea and Man City means the dominance is over.

kryogen

monkey9 wrote: »

Ferguson is one of the greatest managers of all time.

Much better

Timmyctc

kryogen wrote: »

How did you first get interested in Raymond?

made me laugh too much :pac:

G.K.

kryogen wrote: »

I don't need to try discredit him, he does a pretty good job of making himself look like a knob all by himself, more from his wiki page even

. They were described as "selfish" by former Wales international Iwan Roberts.[15] In January 2012, he suggested that Wales should hire a foreigner as their new manager.[16] Verheijen's contract was due to expire at the end of 2011,[17] but he remained in the position until February 2012, when he resigned.[18] In December 2012 he criticised the FAW, stating that they had "destroyed" the "legacy" of Gary Speed.[19]

Destroyed the legacy my arse

He has worked as a fitness coach with Barca, Zenit, Brisbane Roar, Chelsea, City and advised Munich as to a fitness programme for Robben, he has also publicly criticised the training set ups of City, Chelsea, Spurs, Arsenal etc

He enjoys a bit of criticism.

He enjoys running his mouth.
I am not aware of his international team links so wont comment only to say, he is a mouth piece.

Speaking as a Welsh person, while that choice of words was too much, we've gone downhill drastically under Coleman.

The_Kew_Tour

G.K. wrote: »

Speaking as a Welsh person, while that choice of words was too much, we've gone downhill drastically under Coleman.

Which is a pity.

Speed was putting ye in right track at the time.

Some super players the last 25 years. Paul Bodin penalty still haunts ye sadly.

kryogen

G.K. wrote: »

Speaking as a Welsh person, while that choice of words was too much, we've gone downhill drastically under Coleman.

Coleman is pants tbf

To be making statements like his were ridiculous though. They ruined his legacy by not giving him the job?

Mad stuff altogether Ted

No issue with Coleman bashing though Is he still tipping away into Charlotte Jackson?

dfx-

J. Marston wrote: »

This thread on Redcafe made me laugh, basically poking fun at ourselves through the medium of Christmas carols.

Some great posts in the thread, I like the 12 days of Christmas, silent night and Winter Wonderland/Fabregas snowman:pac:

The_Kew_Tour

kryogen wrote: »

Coleman is pants tbf

To be making statements like his were ridiculous though. They ruined his legacy by not giving him the job?

Mad stuff altogether Ted

No issue with Coleman bashing though Is he still tipping away into Charlotte Jackson?

Engaged.

Timmyctc

dfx- wrote: »

Some great posts in the thread, I like the 12 days of Christmas, silent night and Winter Wonderland/Fabregas snowman:pac:

Last time I posted some of the lighthearted stuff from Redcafe (Totally Eclipsed by Joe Hart ) I got ripped into by all sorts of posters because apparently I was being a **** fan by having a laugh at ourselves/ our own players. :P

The_Kew_Tour

Im just looking forward to United playing at places like Huddersfield and Doncaster next season.

Sick of sight of Stamford Bridge and the like:p

Pj!

The Class of '92 is very, very good. Excellent actually. Thoroughly enjoyable.
Highly recommended.

kryogen

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Engaged.

Sickening, more reasons to dislike him

Danger781

Quandary wrote: »

Fergie left Moyes with a bottom 10 standard midfield. A massive oversight by Ferguson.

Moyes signed Fellaini to start to address the problem but Fellaini has had a nightmare start to his Utd career.

Moyes and Woodward failed miserably to sign another badly needed midfielder.

The inevitable happened - Carrick got injured and we now find ourselves completely out of the title race and potentially in danger of missing out on top 4.

Moyes has persisted with a conservative style of football, relying on defensively sound players like Valencia and Welbeck. It will never work for this club.

The players heads' have completely dropped and the squad is badly lacking leadership. Senior players need to step up to the plate and assume some of the responsibility. Wayne Rooney can't do it all on his own.

Januzaj is the only positive I can think of at the moment.

It is a real mess at Manchester United these days

Depressing times.

^ I've read back a number of pages, and this is the most level-headed response I've seen today.

J. Marston

dfx- wrote: »

Some great posts in the thread, I like the 12 days of Christmas, silent night and Winter Wonderland/Fabregas snowman:pac:

Another one I like...

Away to the villa, what hope have we got.
coz we hired Moysie, when it should have been klopp.
The stars in our midfield, are no longer bright.
but we did buy fellaini, who is ten types of shíte.

:pac:

Giggsy11

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Who had 3 summers to address things and did nothing though?

Not all Moyes fault.

It's all moyes fault. He was handed superb squad with only CM issues to address and he did **** all.

Not sure why people are talking as if the squad is poor or average. These very same players won the league with so much ease.

There are many players who are at their peak or improved players than last year.

GK: De Gea

Defenders: Rafael, Jones, Smalling, Evans, Vidic, Fabio

Midfielders: Nani, Valencia, Carrick, Cleverley, Kagawa, Januzaj

Strikers: Rooney, RVP, Hernandez, Welbeck.

Last season we missed Vidic for half a season, Nani almost out whole season and Rooney had stop start season. All these players are at their peak or improved from last year.

Only Rio and to an extent Evra are worse players, so how can the team who won league so easily are struggling at 9th or 10th place? How can team that attacked so easily last season are struggling to even score a goal from open play.

Point is Moyes lack balls. He is afraid to attack. We never attack with more than 3-4 players and when full back or wingers cross the ball we don't have more than 2 players in the box. It's near impossible to even find the target.

It's ****ing disgrace to lose 2 home games in a row without even scoring a goal, that too against Everton and Newcastle. We didn't even create clear cut chances at all apart from hitting post from set pieces.

Giggsy11

Danger781 wrote: »

^ I've read back a number of pages, and this is the most level-headed response I've seen today.

Absolute bs. The same midfield that won the league last season and he was given 4 months to sign players of his choice and it's his mistake that he didn't.

He was given a superb squad with only CM to address. If he can't even do that then he should not be managing at top level. SAF left behind a very good squad. De Gea, Rafael, Vidic, Evans, Smalling, Jones, Fabio, Carrick, Nani, Kagawa, RVP, Rooney, Hernandez are all very good players. All he needed was a CM and he ****ed it up so badly.

tigger123

Giggsy11 wrote: »

Absolute bs. The same midfield that won the league last season and he was given 4 months to sign players of his choice and it's his mistake that he didn't.

He was given a superb squad with only CM to address. If he can't even do that then he should not be managing at top level. SAF left behind a very good squad. De Gea, Rafael, Vidic, Evans, Smalling, Jones, Fabio, Carrick, Nani, Kagawa, RVP, Rooney, Hernandez are all very good players. All he needed was a CM and he ****ed it up so badly.

Utds squad is decidedly average. The difference between this season and last season is last season they had a once in a lifetime manager in the shape of SAF, whereas this season they only have a decent manager. Utds performance so far this season underlines what an incredible manager SAF was.

Also,.without Rooney Utd woule be in SERIOUS trouble this season, here's hoping his Chelsea dreams come true! :-P

Hangballlouie

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Engaged.

Manchester United and Celebrity Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14

kryogen

tigger123 wrote: »

Utds squad is decidedly average. The difference between this season and last season is last season they had a once in a lifetime manager in the shape of SAF, whereas this season they only have a decent manager. Utds performance so far this season underlines what an incredible manager SAF was.

Also,.without Rooney Utd woule be in SERIOUS trouble this season, here's hoping his Chelsea dreams come true! :-P

Na, the squad is decidedly well above average tbh

Look at it for depth

De Gea, Lindegaard, Amos

Rafael, Smalling, Vidic, Ferdinand, Evans, Jones, Evra, Fabio, Buttner

Nani. Young, Valencia, Carrick, Cleverley, Ando, Fellaini, Giggs, Zaha, Kagawa, Januzaj, (Fletcher)

RVP, Rooney, Welbeck, Hernandez

That's just the first team squad leaving out the likes of Henriquez, Powell etc

The talent and potential in that squad rivals any, it is let down by a gaping hole in the middle of the field, as it has been for a few seasons now.

The first XI is not as strong as the cream of the crop in Europe, but the squad is certainly up there. Big difference.

You could of course just take this seasons start as proof of the squad being average, but then you would have to forget that it walked the league last season, when it was weaker and would have been a 4 in a row squad but for a last second Aguero goal.

Most managers in the league would kill for the squad Moyes has to work with. There's only 2/3 above you in the league that could boast a better one

tigger123

kryogen wrote: »

Na, the squad is decidedly well above average tbh

Look at it for depth

De Gea, Lindegaard, Amos

Rafael, Smalling, Vidic, Ferdinand, Evans, Jones, Evra, Fabio, Buttner

Nani. Young, Valencia, Carrick, Cleverley, Ando, Fellaini, Giggs, Zaha, Kagawa, Januzaj, (Fletcher)

RVP, Rooney, Welbeck, Hernandez

That's just the first team squad leaving out the likes of Henriquez, Powell etc

The talent and potential in that squad rivals any, it is let down by a gaping hole in the middle of the field, as it has been for a few seasons now.

The first XI is not as strong as the cream of the crop in Europe, but the squad is certainly up there. Big difference.

You could of course just take this seasons start as proof of the squad being average, but then you would have to forget that it walked the league last season, when it was weaker and would have been a 4 in a row squad but for a last second Aguero goal.

It would have been four in a row but for the fact that Utd lost the league. No team looses a 38 match league through bad luck, its because not enough games were won.

Second Captains on the Irish Times summed it best when they said, and I'm paraphrasing here, that when you look at the individual performances of utds players this season, there's not one (apart from Rooney and RVP) that stands out as a player that should be at a top 4 club. How many of utds players would get into Barca, Bayern, Real, Chelsea, City ... I'm not looking for an answer, just making a point.

I also think utd should give Moyes a few seasons. If they go down the road of sacking managers every season they'll be truly up ****s creek. Stability is very important. (This coming from a CFC fan).

DeanAustin

I find it amazing that people are having a pop at Fergie here as if he left Moyes an impossible job.

The squad had issues but won the league and has been competing for it every season over the last few seasons. Moyes didn't inherit a bunch of no hopers. He inherited the league champions.

With that in mind, being 9th in the table is massive underachievement. Anyone who denies that or wants to lay the blame at Fergie's door is being silly. Anyone who thinks Moyes is not underachieving is being silly.

It's also incorrect to say the players are to blame. The buck stops somewhere and that's with the manager. Trying to spread the blame is letting the man responsible off the hook. If one or two players are underperforming, that's down to those players. If half of your team is underperforming, that's down to the manager.

Moyes is out of his depth. He seems a decent person, capable manager but he is not at the level United need. All that said, if the world was a fair place, he would probably get a chance to build his team and prove people like me wrong. However, underachievement on this scale, if it continues, will mean he doesn't get that chance.

Francie Barrett

Only 15 games into the season and Manchester United are just 12 points behind the Arsenal, a team who have been known to crumble.

Moyes needs to clear out the deadweight (Cleverley, Young, Ferdinand) and be allowed to bring fresh new players in.

tigger123

DeanAustin wrote: »

I find it amazing that people are having a pop at Fergie here as if he left Moyes an impossible job.

The squad had issues but won the league and has been competing for it every season over the last few seasons. Moyes didn't inherit a bunch of no hopers. He inherited the league champions.

With that in mind, being 9th in the table is massive underachievement. Anyone who denies that or wants to lay the blame at Fergie's door is being silly. Anyone who thinks Moyes is not underachieving is being silly.

It's also incorrect to say the players are to blame. The buck stops somewhere and that's with the manager. Trying to spread the blame is letting the man responsible off the hook. If one or two players are underperforming, that's down to those players. If half of your team is underperforming, that's down to the manager.

Moyes is out of his depth. He seems a decent person, capable manager but he is not at the level United need. All that said, if the world was a fair place, he would probably get a chance to build his team and prove people like me wrong. However, underachievement on this scale, if it continues, will mean he doesn't get that chance.

SAF isn't making things easy for Moyes either. He shouldn't have released his autobiography during the season, and he shouldn't be hanging around Old Trafford either. It undermines Moyes' authority.

Did i read somewhere that he travelled to an away Champions League game?!

sundula

Saw the last two united games and I thought yee had created enough chances to win both so the team/squad is not as bad as some people say. Prehaps getting rid of so many of the backroom staff was his biggest error. United do also seem to be doing alot of diving which suggests the players are concerned about there results.

DeanAustin

tigger123 wrote: »

SAF isn't making things easy for Moyes either. He shouldn't have released his autobiography during the season, and he shouldn't be hanging around Old Trafford either. It undermines Moyes' authority.

Did i read somewhere that he travelled to an away Champions League game?!

Agree wholeheartedly on that score to be fair. The book was amazingly ill timed. Someone should have a word. Still doesn't excuse Moyes though.

Green Hornet

Arsenal have actually been a second half of the season team for the last few years. Nov/Dec has been their 'crumble time' for a good few years now. In fact, they've been written off from being top 4 around the Christmas time for a few years but come back very strong in the second half.

I think this team is tougher mentally and better technically than any Arsenal team since the Invincibles. Not sure the depth is there to sustain it through the entire season but I don't believe they will 'crumble'.....

Jimmy Iovine

tigger123 wrote: »

Did i read somewhere that he travelled to an away Champions League game?!

Yes, the Bayer one. He went into the dressing room after it as well to congratulate the players.

tigger123

DeanAustin wrote: »

Agree wholeheartedly on that score to be fair. The book was amazingly ill timed. Someone should have a word. Still doesn't excuse Moyes though.

I've massive respect for Ferguson but have been kinda disappointed in him since he "retired". I never thought he'd be chasing glory in this manner.

kryogen

tigger123 wrote: »

SAF isn't making things easy for Moyes either. He shouldn't have released his autobiography during the season, and he shouldn't be hanging around Old Trafford either. It undermines Moyes' authority.

Did i read somewhere that he travelled to an away Champions League game?!

He is a director and ambassador of the club

I know you weren't looking for an answer in your previous post regarding the second captains thing, but do you not see how flawed an argument it is? Besides specifically separating the first XI from the squad which you seem unable to do (asking how many players based on this season would get in x,y,z team?) its irrelevant!

The other pretty glaring error in it is it is simply based on form rather then class. Which is stupid.

tigger123

Jimmy Iovine wrote: »

Yes, the Bayer one. He went into the dressing room after it as well to congratulate the players.

That's a serious problem. How is Moyes supposed to assert his authority when SAF is calling into the dressing room? Put it this way, do you think Ferguson would have tolerated a former manager being around his squad like that?

kryogen

sundula wrote: »

Saw the last two united games and I thought yee had created enough chances to win both so the team/squad is not as bad as some people say. Prehaps getting rid of so many of the backroom staff was his biggest error. United do also seem to be doing alot of diving which suggests the players are concerned about there results.

The Everton game I thought we were pretty unlucky and had the result gone our way I don't think anyone could have complained, but against Newcastle there was nothing, nothing to give any confidence in the team. Played well for about 5 minutes

When we went a goal down there was no response, that is the most worrying aspect, there was never really any sign of us getting back into the match after going behind. Very unusual

kryogen

tigger123 wrote: »

That's a serious problem. How is Moyes supposed to assert his authority when SAF is calling into the dressing room? Put it this way, do you think Ferguson would have tolerated a former manager being around his squad like that?

He did

tigger123

kryogen wrote: »

He did

I stand corrected! Who was the manager?

Francie Barrett

Green Hornet wrote: »

Arsenal have actually been a second half of the season team for the last few years. Nov/Dec has been their 'crumble time' for a good few years now. In fact, they've been written off from being top 4 around the Christmas time for a few years but come back very strong in the second half.

I think this team is tougher mentally and better technically than any Arsenal team since the Invincibles. Not sure the depth is there to sustain it through the entire season but I don't believe they will 'crumble'.....

Arsenal are humming along quite nicely for sure, but they have 3 very tough games ahead.

gosplan

Francie Barrett wrote: »

Only 15 games into the season and Manchester United are just 12 points behind the Arsenal, a team who have been known to crumble.

Moyes needs to clear out the deadweight (Cleverley, Young, Ferdinand) and be allowed to bring fresh new players in.

This is different.

It would have come after the loss to utd as Arsenal would have wobbled and Utd began to rack up the wins.

Instead in the 4 games since, Arsenal haven't conceded and Utd have picked up 2 points.

tigger123

Green Hornet wrote: »

Arsenal have actually been a second half of the season team for the last few years. Nov/Dec has been their 'crumble time' for a good few years now. In fact, they've been written off from being top 4 around the Christmas time for a few years but come back very strong in the second half.

I think this team is tougher mentally and better technically than any Arsenal team since the Invincibles. Not sure the depth is there to sustain it through the entire season but I don't believe they will 'crumble'.....

Its kinda funny how they've been top for so long and people still don't consider them out and out favourites.

Ordinary man

The worrying thing for me is that moyes doesn't seem to be trying to change much in terms of formations even though the current set up isn't working. Everyone agrees that midfield is the main weakness but still they set up with wingers out wide to stretch the play. But this relies on 2 good cm's controlling the middle which they don't have. I'd rather see him pack the centre and leave the fb's to give the width. The play atm is all based around wing play and is becoming too easy for opponents to defend against. Moyes has to change things to suit the personnel he has