Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14 Mod warning post #718

DM_7

Moyes has messed up the start no question. The inconsistency between Arsenal and Leverkusen games compared to the last two highlights the issues going on.

Recruitment policy before he arrived is still worthy of criticism on its own. In midfield since 07 things have got worse and worse and a major reason for why the club has suffered now SAF is gone.

Moyes is in an awkward spot where he can't bull through the club making changes this early as he needs to keep the players onside. But I bet he is dying to do it, its one of the reasons I want to see him get time so he can do it. Even if he was sacked a new manager coming in would have to make changes and be forced to go through many of the same hurdles Moyes has.

Green Hornet

Francie Barrett wrote: »

Arsenal are humming along quite nicely for sure, but they have 3 very tough games ahead.

Yeah, they have. Giroud is vitally important to Arsenal. He brings the midfielders into play with his hold up play. He's a big strong worker too so he is a real handful for defenders. When he has an off game though, Arsenal do struggle a bit and if he gets injured then Arsenal have a problem.....

Also Mert is a really important player for Arsenal. He is fantastic at communicating, organisation and has great reading of the game. If he gets injured Arsenal will concede more goals.

So, I think the depth in key positions will determine whether Arsenal can stay the course. No matter what though, it's just great to be genuinely challenging again and hopefully able to sustain it!!

adox

I just don't buy that Utd have an average squad. They are good enough to challenge for the league, there's no question in my mind.

Now I was prepared to cut Moyes some slack and accept a level of underperformance while Moyes found his feet but the predicament the club finds itself in now is way beyond that.

It's as much the manner of the defeats asthe defeats themselves that sets the alarm bells ringing. Disjointed, slow, lack of effort, uncreative, chopped and changed teams etc. it all adds up to a mess and an unhappy squad IMO and a manager who doesn't have the team with him and the nuance to change the mess he has made of his few months in charge.

Now Utd can persevere with the expectation that, given time, Moyes will sort it out.

My opinion. He won't sort it out. He looks way in over his head. The sooner he is gone th better for the club. The damage that could be done leaving him there for a year or two could take a very long time to repair.

Even if Utd have to get someone in until the nod of the season and then look for a replacement, I see that as a better option than leaving him there.

DM_7

I find the idea that the players are beyond question very strange and I don't understand it at all.

adox

DM-ICE wrote: »

I find the idea that the players are beyond question very strange and I don't understand it at all.

To what extent? The quality that's there or their level of performance this season?

If it's the quality then I've given my opinion above.

If it's their performance level well then yes, they most certainly have to carry some of the blame.

Discodog

For those who back Moyes do you really think that he is the man to spend millions & take years to rebuild the squad?

What has he done in the past to indicate that he's up to the job?

kryogen

tigger123 wrote: »

Its kinda funny how they've been top for so long and people still don't consider them out and out favourites.

Its the squad imo, an injury here or there and they are in trouble. I still think the league is Citys to lose and have seen nothing to suggest otherwise as of yet.

For Arsenal to be considered title favourites they would have had to prove they could do it at some stage in the last 10 years or so

kryogen

Discodog wrote: »

For those who back Moyes do you really think that he is the man to spend millions & take years to rebuild the squad?

What has he done in the past to indicate that he's up to the job?

Em, your about 6-8 months late with the question

DM_7

adox wrote: »

To what extent? The quality that's there or their level of performance this season?

If it's the quality then I've given my opinion above.

If it's their performance level well then yes, they most certainly have to carry some of the blame.

Inconsistency in performance level is troubling. Manager of 26 years retires and new man comes in, they should be killing themselves to keep the club performing. But collectively they have only really turned up in one league game.

The squad outside of midfield is top notch. With Carrick and Fellaini injured pretty much all season United are left with a poor midfield. Jones is the best of what's left and he isn't even a midfielder. After that its Giggs, Cleverley, Anderson and moving Rooney back to midfield.

In ways its like selecting from the ageing Keane, forward Smith, Fletcher, Miller, Kleberson, Djemba Djemba again. Last time United were this poor that was the midfield options and it can't be just a coincidence.


No doubt Moyes has not started well enough and takes a lot if the blame for the start but I don't think its down to him alone. If he was sacked whoever comes in will have the same problems IMO. What is needed is everyone to knuckle down work hard to get through this.

edgecutter

DM-ICE wrote: »

I find the idea that the players are beyond question very strange and I don't understand it at all.

These players have won us numerous championships and I think it is unfair to start the blame at some of them.

Yes, some have under performed, but why are they under performing? The finger must be pointed at the management team.

At this stage I am far more likely to keep most of the players than keep a manager who has been here 6 months

adox

DM-ICE wrote: »

Inconsistency in performance level is troubling. Manager of 26 years retires and new man comes in, they should be killing themselves to keep the club performing. But collectively they have only really turned up in one league game.

The squad outside of midfield is top notch. With Carrick and Fellaini injured pretty much all season United are left with a poor midfield. Jones is the best of what's left and he isn't even a midfielder. After that its Giggs, Cleverley, Anderson and moving Rooney back to midfield.

In ways its like selecting from the ageing Keane, forward Smith, Fletcher, Miller, Kleberson, Djemba Djemba again. Last time United were this poor that was the midfield options and it can't be just a coincidence.


No doubt Moyes has not started well enough and takes a lot if the blame for the start but I don't think its down to him alone. If he was sacked whoever comes in will have the same problems IMO. What is needed is everyone to knuckle down work hard to get through this.

I agree with a lot of that but not the second last sentence. I honestly believe that the team would perform better with a new man in charge. The players aren't performing under Moyes, at times look disinterested and they have to carry some of the blame but ultimately Moyes to me is the root cause.

DM_7

edgecutter wrote: »

These players have won us numerous championships and I think it is unfair to start the blame at some of them.

Yes, some have under performed, but why are they under performing? The finger must be pointed at the management team.

At this stage I am far more likely to keep most of the players than keep a manager who has been here 6 months

I am not asking for most of the players to leave. In fact I wouldn't be looking for many of them to leave at all. Over time I would be looking for a better choice of players in midfield. I would be looking for a left winger. Things that were not addressed before Moyes took over. But now I think the players that are there share some (not all or even most) of the blame for the lifeless performances especially at OT.

I am not intentionally trying to focus on the players over Moyes, the problems with Moyes so far are well set out already on here and I am talking about another issue rather then the main one.

Donerkebab

Alex Song.

edgecutter

DM-ICE wrote: »

I am not asking for most of the players to leave. In fact I wouldn't be looking for many of them to leave at all. Over time I would be looking for a better choice of players in midfield. I would be looking for a left winger. Things that were not addressed before Moyes took over. But now I think the players that are there share some (not all or even most) of the blame for the lifeless performances especially at OT.

I am not intentionally trying to focus on the players over Moyes, the problems with Moyes so far are well set out already on here and I am talking about another issue rather then the main one.

Moyes isn't going to get better players for us. he already wasted 27.5m on a crap midfielder and worse of all he should have known if he could fit in and also how to get the best out of him.

We have missed out on some achievable midfielders this year in pursuit of someone we're never going to get. Even if we had picked up wanyama and mccarthy, we would still have money in the bank and two better players than what Moyes has chosen for us.

Hitchens

M for Moyes

M for Mediocrity

MagicMarker

Hitchens wrote: »

M for Moyes

M for Mediocrity

Brilliant, must've taken you all night.

homerjay2005

While i admire his optimism, the fact that Moyes thinks we will be close to winning the league is bizzare. As it stands missing out on 4th place is really possible.

DM_7

edgecutter wrote: »

Moyes isn't going to get better players for us. he already wasted 27.5m on a crap midfielder and worse of all he should have known if he could fit in and also how to get the best out of him.

We have missed out on some achievable midfielders this year in pursuit of someone we're never going to get. Even if we had picked up wanyama and mccarthy, we would still have money in the bank and two better players than what Moyes has chosen for us.

Of course Moyes can get better players in, it's silly to think he can't get better than the midfield players available now, especially after he has had a chance to work with them and see exactly what is missing. Let's not act like he knew the players well enough to discard them before playing a single game. The recruitment in the summer wasn't good enough but McCarthy of Wanyama were not the level of player we should be looking back at and wishing we got in.

Outside of the players performance level, Moyes said after yesterday's game that United need to pass better, make more chances and take more chances. He is right, now he needs to prove he can do something about it.

DM_7

Hitchens wrote: »

M for Moyes

M for Mediocrity

F for Ferguson

F for Failure

Am I doing it right?

kryogen

homerjay2005 wrote: »

While i admire his optimism, the fact that Moyes thinks we will be close to winning the league is bizzare. As it stands missing out on 4th place is really possible.

A league win is highly unlikely, but we can go close alright, as long as the team has an amazing run of form in the near future and the teams like City and Arsenal hit some very poor form, Chelsea have been inconsistent so they would need to remain so, Pool and Spurs are not title contenders.

Its really as simple as that, if we improve greatly, which the players are capable of doing and the teams in front falter big time we could go close. That's about it though

Its up to Moyes to play a system that gets the best out of what he has, and its up to the players to find their best form and show they deserve to wear the jersey. That's all they can control right now.

They need to start showing something different, and quick.

jaykay74

As things stand PP are offering 6/4 on a top 4 finish for Utd, so less than a 50/50 chance of that result. Think thats probably about right. I won't be backing it though.

kryogen

jaykay74 wrote: »

As things stand PP are offering 6/4 on a top 4 finish for Utd, so less than a 50/50 chance of that result. Think thats probably about right. I won't be backing it though.

Do they have a max bet on that do you know?

Great price. When Carrick is back the team will look a whole lot better and since when do bookies odds (particularly PP) serve as a good barometer for the likely outcome of something?

Im gonna back that when I get home!

Edit: is the PP one an in store special?

No firm is giving odds on it according to oddschecker other then bwin @7/5 to be top 4

kryogen

Had a spare 103.75 euro in the bwin account I didn't even know about so threw that on it

Thanks for the heads up

jaykay74

kryogen wrote: »

Do they have a max bet on that do you know?

Great price. When Carrick is back the team will look a whole lot better and since when do bookies odds (particularly PP) serve as a good barometer for the likely outcome of something?

Im gonna back that when I get home!

Thats the price, its not some special so back away.

In terms of the price not reflecting the likely outcome its up to the punter I guess to spot value and take advantage of it. 33/1 for the league if you feeling as confident as Moyes is about a title run!

http://www.paddypower.com/football/uk-football/premier-league?ev_oc_grp_ids=111188

kryogen

jaykay74 wrote: »

Thats the price, its not some special so back away.

In terms of the price not reflecting the likely outcome its up to the punter I guess to spot value and take advantage of it. 33/1 for the league if you feeling as confident as Moyes is about a title run!

Nope, not a hope Id back us for the league, top 4 is a totally different prospect however, money went where my mouth is anyway

As I said, I checked oddschecker and the only one had it was bwin

kryogen

Just in case I want to pull this out at a later date I will post a bit of proof I guess

jaykay74

kryogen wrote: »

Nope, not a hope Id back us for the league, top 4 is a totally different prospect however, money went where my mouth is anyway

As I said, I checked oddschecker and the only one had it was bwin

http://www.oddschecker.com/football/english/premier-league/top-4-finish

Good luck with it. Hope you clean up obviously

kryogen

jaykay74 wrote: »

http://www.oddschecker.com/football/english/premier-league/top-4-finish

Really weird, when I googled it it only returned the bwin one to me, all the one I guess anyway

kryogen

kryogen wrote: »

Just in case I want to pull this out at a later date I will post a bit of proof I guess

Is that image visible? For whatever reason my browser doesnt automatically show it.... Computer giving me some jip today

markc91

Just got it on Marathon Bet @ 6/4 if any of yis have an account there

jaykay74

kryogen wrote: »

Is that image visible? For whatever reason my browser doesnt automatically show it.... Computer giving me some jip today

No, can't see the image but I believe you!

Rayne Wooney

Some are just posting complete bollòx, it's not like Moyes didn't try and fix the midfield. Multiple bids for Fabregas, enquiries about Herrera, a bid for Khedira if you believe the tabloids, and when all else failed he bought Fellaini.

January is vital now, he should be working now to get pre deals in place, 2 players and we should be back in the running.

The_Kew_Tour

kryogen wrote: »

Is that image visible? For whatever reason my browser doesnt automatically show it.... Computer giving me some jip today

No, but a realible poster like you dont need to prove it.

You proved it in past you dont BS.

That bet has the bookies giving us 40% chance of getting CL football. That means bookies true calculation is around 36-37% going by layers.

Lord TSC

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Some are just posting complete bollòx, it's not like Moyes didn't try and fix the midfield. Multiple bids for Fabregas, enquiries about Herrera, a bid for Khedira if you believe the tabloids, and when all else failed he bought Fellaini.

Key word there.

homerjay2005

looking at previous years such as last season and Arsenal, they were 15 points off the top at this stage of the season and managed to secure 4th on the final day, so it is possible. we did it ourselves in 2002.

However, Moyes is no Wenger and he certainly is no Fergie and we are playing so poorly, that at this point in time its hard to see us doing it.

5 wins before the window reopens is a must now, no excuses. we need to be in the top 4 by the time we start negotiating for world class players, but right now i cant see very many wanting to sign for us.

kona

4th is well achievable, Liverpool have to capitulate because that's what they do. Spurs are not great either.

Need to win max points between now and January.

Danger781

I remember now why I stopped keeping up with this thread to begin with.. It's nothing but ranting, bitching, and moaning..

newballsplease

Think Moyes not keeping Utds old coaching staff is now a huge mistake.

Rayne Wooney

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Key word there.

What would you have done differently?

Moyes did indeed inherit the midfield that won the league and he added Fellaini to that and tried to get Fabregas. Now in hindsight we now know that Fellaini wasn't enough but nobody could have foreseen back then that we'd be 9th in the table. I'm not going back to check but I'm pretty sure the general consensus was that the midfield would keep us in the top 4.

Moyes needs to get it right in January now though, there's no way we will make top 4 if we don't sign players.

DM_7

Danger781 wrote: »

I remember now why I stopped keeping up with this thread to begin with.. It's nothing but ranting, bitching, and moaning..

Not that you would be complaining or anything!

Mocha Joe

newballsplease wrote: »

Think Moyes not keeping Utds old coaching staff is now a huge mistake.

Nonsense. Everything can be called a mistake when things aren't going well.

homerjay2005

Mark Ogden has got this, absolutely spot on -

http://www.independent.ie/sport/six-reasons-for-the-crisis-at-old-trafford-under-moyes-29819713.html

the real sad thing, is most of this could have been prevented and should not have happened at a club like United.

DM_7

Ogden is not really worth paying any attention too. No real insight what so ever*






* It was all posted here long ago

Oregano_State

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Moyes needs to get it right in January now though, there's no way we will make top 4 if we don't sign players.

I don't think that's true. Yes we could do with more players, but I think it's false to say that the current players are not capable of getting top 4 from here.

The squad just needs to regain some belief.

In the past few bad results, there have been moments where things could have turned out differently.

We conceded a late goal against Cardiff to deny us the win.

Against Everton we created a number of scoreable chances but didn't convert; Rooney skying a volley, and Welbeck hitting the crossbar with an open goal in front of him.

Yesterday we had a ball cleared off the line by a handball, and RVP was narrowly offside for the goal he headed in.

There are small margins at play. Belief is a big factor. I just hope Moyes still has the faith of the players.

Lord TSC

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

What would you have done differently?

Moyes did indeed inherit the midfield that won the league and he added Fellaini to that and tried to get Fabregas. Now in hindsight we now know that Fellaini wasn't enough but nobody could have foreseen back then that we'd be 9th in the table. I'm not going back to check but I'm pretty sure the general consensus was that the midfield would keep us in the top 4.

Moyes needs to get it right in January now though, there's no way we will make top 4 if we don't sign players.

What would I have done differently? Probably sought out more realistic targets tbh. I'm of the belief that Fabregas was never available, but hoped that while the media were busy focusing on that, we were looking at other targets as well.

Moyes came in and identified straight away that the midfield needed strengthening. So yes, it was good to target top players like Fabregas and Khedira and the likes. But so too should he have been looking at the likes of Wanyama, Strootman or that level of player as well; players who might not have been world class but still would have been vast improvements on the options available. The level of player United tends to sign.

Instead, we put all our eggs into an unrealistic basket.

I also find it weird....it's like you're defending Moyes, but then also pointing out how bad a job he's doing in the same post.

homerjay2005

Mocha Joe wrote: »

Nonsense. Everything can be called a mistake when things aren't going well.

true, but i recall several posters on here and fans in general, saying this was a mistake at the time. call it common sense really.

bucketybuck

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

What would you have done differently?

I said it in the summer, multiple times. Moyes was spending all his time chasing unattainable targets when he should have been consolidating with achieveable targets that may not have been Fabregas, but would have been better than what we had.

Anybody with half a brain could see that Tom Cleverley, Anderson et al were simply not good enough for Manchester United, a fcuking child could see that. Moyes needed to bring in 2 or 3 solid, competent midfielders to give him a solid base on which to move forward. Wanyama, Cabaye, Strootman, all achievable and all better than what we have now. Then over the next few years he could make more realistic attempts to get truly world class players in.

Instead Moyes and Woodward wasted their whole fcuking summer chasing players like Fabregas who were never, ever, going to sign for him. Now he finds himself dead in the water because what do you know, it turns out Tom Cleverley isn't good enough to compete against any midfield worth a damn. Gee, who could have forseen that...

ETA: Beaten!

Lennonist

edgecutter wrote: »

Moyes isn't going to get better players for us. he already wasted 27.5m on a crap midfielder and worse of all he should have known if he could fit in and also how to get the best out of him.

We have missed out on some achievable midfielders this year in pursuit of someone we're never going to get. Even if we had picked up wanyama and mccarthy, we would still have money in the bank and two better players than what Moyes has chosen for us.

I wonder what age a lot of the United fans are on this site? A lot of them don't seem to have memory of Ferguson's inauspicious start at United where he could easily have been sacked. They also don't seem to remember more recent events like Ferguson spending 28 million on Juan Veron back in 2001 who flopped.

I think Ferguson's continuing and obvious presence at United is undermining Moyes, they shouldn't have given Moyes the job if they weren't going to back him with funds and give him complete control. Ferguson chose him for the job so I'm sure he wants him to succeed, the first thing he can do to help him is to make himself less conspicuous around the place. If Man U back Moyes properly and give him a couple of seasons I'd say he'll eventually do well them. If they sack him prematurely, another club will get a good manager and Man U will be back to square one.

PhlegmyMoses

homerjay2005 wrote: »

true, but i recall several posters on here and fans in general, saying this was a mistake at the time. call it common sense really.

It's confirmation bias at the moment. It's a worrying time but I'm still firmly of the belief that we'll work this out. That squad is better than it's playing.

Paul Tergat

Any muppet who mentions Fergie Time in what they want to be a legit article should be laughed at.