Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14 Mod warning post #718

Headshot

ugh bring more average players in Jan, that will help..

Mitch Connor

Headshot wrote: »

ugh bring more average players in Jan, that will help..

We have to do some business - either the squad isn't good enough or moyes can't work with them. Either way, we are fooked if we continue as is. There needs to be changes - either in the players of the staff and the players are more likely.

A few weeks back I'd have said January could be quiet. It still could be, but the reality of the situation is United need to make some serious moves or we are going to continue to struggle badly.

jaykay74

Soft Falling Rain wrote: »

What Moyes is or isn't doing is none of Ferguson's business to be honest.

Ferguson is currently a director of the club so the performance of club employees like Moyes are of some interest in fairness.

Soft Falling Rain

jaykay74 wrote: »

Ferguson is currently a director of the club so the performance of club employees like Moyes are of some interest in fairness.

No more though than any other director though. Anyway, hypothetical situation so carry on with other business. :pac:

The_Kew_Tour

Anybody here anything about Glazers coming over this week?

Headshot

Mitch Connor wrote: »

We have to do some business - either the squad isn't good enough or moyes can't work with them. Either way, we are fooked if we continue as is. There needs to be changes - either in the players of the staff and the players are more likely.

A few weeks back I'd have said January could be quiet. It still could be, but the reality of the situation is United need to make some serious moves or we are going to continue to struggle badly.

TBH Mitch who can we realistic buy in Jan that can get us to the next level. Yes we could buy another average CM that can rescue us some what but that is very short thinking.

The big players wont move because of the WC and teams wont sell

kryogen

Headshot wrote: »

TBH Mitch who can we realistic buy in Jan that can get us to the next level. Yes we could buy another average CM that can rescue us some what but that is very short thinking.

The big players wont move because of the WC and teams wont sell

Teams will sell for the right money, we will get screwed over price wise for players but teams will sell.

The big players will move, for the right money, its not as if they would have to fear warming the bench either

I don't like the club doing January transfer business in general as bargains like Vidic/Evra are few and far between. Moyes does have a decent record in that window however so I am interested to see what will happen

Too Tough To Die

kryogen wrote: »

Teams will sell for the right money, we will get screwed over price wise for players but teams will sell.

The big players will move, for the right money, its not as if they would have to fear warming the bench either

I don't like the club doing January transfer business in general as bargains like Vidic/Evra are few and far between. Moyes does have a decent record in that window however so I am interested to see what will happen

Harder to attract big players when it looks like we will be playing Europa League football next season.

Headshot

Would players move if they know they wont get CL soccer for the rest of the season, I doubt it

magnumbud

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

What are thoughts about Shaktar tomorrow then?

Typically, I'd have thought it a good game to try new tactics and give some fringe players a chance to prove themselves, but wonder if Moyes will be so scared of losing now, he'll be trying his strongest team.

i'd say we should name a team that has the weekend in mind. i mean one that shouldnt lose the game cause coming second could be a disaster but we need to get back on track in the league and make sure we are in the CL next year. namely keep rooney and RVP for the weekend. maybe play valencia and welbeck on the wings with kagawa behind chico. CM is the trouble area. giggs but not sure who i would play next to him. give rio a run out and maybe buttner and play smalling and evans maybe in the 2 remaining positions. a win would give us a much needed confidence boost but villa is more important at this point.

Kylo Ren

I was adverse to the signing of Cabaye last season but I'd take him in January.

RobertKK

United were fortunate over the weekend that Chelsea lost and Man city, southampton, Arsenal and Everton drew.

Top 4 is still a real possibility, but things need to change.

A few things they should try and do - make a serious bid for Reus and use Kagawa if necessary. Kagawa played out wide is not working, get in someone who is just class in that position.
Strengten midfield, Sneijder, Banega, Koke, someone....

If Falcao is available on loan, try and get him, RVP is not the same goal machine as last season so far and Hernandez when he gets his chances is not making enough of them. Falcao at least would qualify for CL.

United need people who can score goals and lots of them. Yes I know what I posted is easier said than done.

KH25

Keno wrote: »

I was adverse to the signing of Cabaye last season but I'd take him in January.

Could see us going for him but IMO not good enough.

GSPfan

Any truth in the rumour that Valencia has been match fixing for the last two years?

I've only just made it up now but it sure would explain a lot.

kryogen

Headshot wrote: »

Would players move if they know they wont get CL soccer for the rest of the season, I doubt it

What if their team is already out though? Or has no realistic chance of progressing? Or if they put aside short term plans for a longer career at the top with United?

Where I see he major stumbling block is Moyes ability to convince them that this is just a temporary slump and the team will realistically be competing at the very top again very soon.

Hopefully he can do that

bucketybuck

Headshot wrote: »

Yes we could buy another average CM that can rescue us some what but that is very short thinking.

I'm not saying this is something that sits well with me but lets be honest here, perhaps we do need something short term.

If its a choice between playing the rest of the season with a midfield of Cleverley, Jones and Giggs, or instead getting a short term, competent midfielder in to plug the gap until the summer, well then perhaps we should look at getting somebody in. Once we are secure we can then start thinking long term.

Lets face it, if Moyes has to play the rest of the season with just Cleverley and Jones then he might not even make it to the summer.

KH25

What about Arturo Vidal? Any chance we could get him from Juve?

kryogen

KH25 wrote: »

What about Arturo Vidal? Any chance we could get him from Juve?

Nope

Pro. F

KH25 wrote: »

What about Arturo Vidal? Any chance we could get him from Juve?

No.

The_Kew_Tour

Koke is our best chance of decent name I say

KH25

kryogen wrote: »

Nope

Pro. F wrote: »

No.

Worth a shot. :P

magnumbud

KH25 wrote: »

What about Arturo Vidal? Any chance we could get him from Juve?

is he not pretty key for them? i mean being realistic no club at that level is going to sell a key player in january. best hope is a player who is out of favour at his club or buying someone from a team that united is a step up.

IMO realistic players we could target that could give us the spark we need are:

sneijder, gundongan(didnt the president/CEO say he can go for the right price?), cabaye, di maria, koke, herreria.

not saying all of them (1 or 2) and not saying all of them well step up up to the level of City, real, barca or bayerns midfield but an improvement for sure. was said a number of times last year we would be in trouble if carrick got injured and low and behold hes out the same period that we go 4 games without a win(of course RvP missing 3 and not looking ready for the 4th is also key).

at the moment or midfield is muck and has been for too long. its unfortunate fellaini is taking so long to settle and im sure he will improve but beyond that carrick is great and im not too bad on cleverley as a squad player but giggs is too old to be relied on and jones is not a CM and anderson just has never lived up to his first season or 2. dont get me wrong jones was one of our best players on saturday but should be only choosen in there in a injury crisis and atm an injury crisis is 1 cm getting injured and thats not good enough.

if we came out of january with carrick back fit, fellaini, say cabaye and cleverley it would stand us far better for the battle that we have after christmas to get to the top 4. even if we fail to do that and say came 5th then i dont think it should be impossible to still convince players to come as long as we show a much bigger improvement in the second half of the season.

i would say if we could snap up someone like di maria who could excite the players and fans alike it could give the whole place a much needed confidence boost that could push us through the second half of the season.

LuckyLloyd

Aston Villa away
League Cup
West Ham home
Hull City away
Norwich away
Spurs home
FA Cup

Interested to hear what people's squeal point would be for the coming run of fixtures. Typically, this is the type of slate that Utd sides of old would plough through efficiently (League Cup tie aside) setting themselves up for the New Year.

Obviously some of you have lost patience and would already be willing to move, but for those of you still behind Moyes or on the fence, what type of points total from the next 15 available would have you calling for a change?

Irishcrx

Funny that Martinez has Everton playing better football than Moyes ever did. Yes his two loan signings are helping a lot but still...

Utd are terrible to watch at the moment I don't know what else to say. I'm still on the fenceabout Moyes and willing to give him time, but the squad need to pick it up and we need to try something differant because the current tactics are failing.

aperture_nuig

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Aston Villa away
League Cup
West Ham home
Hull City away
Norwich away
Spurs home
FA Cup

Interested to hear what people's squeal point would be for the coming run of fixtures. Typically, this is the type of slate that Utd sides of old would plough through efficiently (League Cup tie aside) setting themselves up for the New Year.

Obviously some of you have lost patience and would already be willing to move, but for those of you still behind Moyes or on the fence, what type of points total from the next 15 available would have you calling for a change?

I'm not so sure about points totals, but if we're out of both cups at the end of that, as well as another poor loss in the league, we're in big trouble. Honestly, we simply have to be looking at max points from those fixtures.

KH25

A cup victory would be nice. Been too long since we won the FA cup.

jaykay74

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Interested to hear what people's squeal point would be for the coming run of fixtures. Typically, this is the type of slate that Utd sides of old would plough through efficiently (League Cup tie aside) setting themselves up for the New Year.

Obviously some of you have lost patience and would already be willing to move, but for those of you still behind Moyes or on the fence, what type of points total from the next 15 available would have you calling for a change?

I'm not all that interested in the week by week fixtures and penciling in a certain defined total as a line in the sand. My patience stretches as far as achieving 4th spot as a bare minimum. If along the way it becomes apparent that 4th spot is not achievable or is a long long shot then thats me gone. At the moment we are (at least yesterday) a 6/4 shot for top 4.

kryogen

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Aston Villa away
League Cup
West Ham home
Hull City away
Norwich away
Spurs home
FA Cup

Interested to hear what people's squeal point would be for the coming run of fixtures. Typically, this is the type of slate that Utd sides of old would plough through efficiently (League Cup tie aside) setting themselves up for the New Year.

Obviously some of you have lost patience and would already be willing to move, but for those of you still behind Moyes or on the fence, what type of points total from the next 15 available would have you calling for a change?

If we lose the next 6 games in all competitions I think it would get very uncomfortable. Im prepared to ride out the storm though other then that, 8 losses in a row would be tough to take however.

If you have stuck with Moyes till now, and most have, the next 3 league games are not going to be make or break, at this stage it is him or who knows who till the end of the season at least.

Its a supporters job to support. Especially in the bad times. There will be plenty of time for examination and consequences at the end of the season if it is to be a disaster. I have very little faith in Moyes, I never wanted him in the first place but he is there now. He must be given the time, its a huge step up for him and he will take time to adapt, I feel it would have been made easier for him if he kept some of the old backroom team about to guide him a little but that's not the case.

If he isn't the man for the job, so be it, he can go at the end of the season. If he can be the man for the job it would be a shame to lose him while he is still settling in to his new position.

Replacing Fergie was always going to be ridiculous. Even if Moyes only serves to make that task easier for the next guy coming in I could stomach a poor season.

Morzadec

If I were a United fan I would be on the fence but leaning towards making a change.

My opinion would be:

Over 12 points - he's bought himself some time
10-12 points - I'm not quite calling for his head but I'm still leaning on that fence
Under 10 points - he has to go.

This is just an outsider looking in, but that's the way I see it. Being reasonably patient but also recognising that if things are going so badly wrong they need to make a change

yabadabado

If Gundongan and Di Maria were signed in January it would be the a huge boost but there is little chance of either happening imo.total cost for both would be 70m+ .be 2 great additions and would make an immediate impact and be a vast improvement on the current players in midfield and wing .

kryogen

jaykay74 wrote: »

I'm not all that interested in the week by week fixtures. My patience stretches as far as achieving 4th spot as a bare minimum. If along the way it becomes apparent that 4th spot is not achievable or is a long long shot then thats me gone. At the moment we are (at least yesterday) a 6/4 shot for top 4.

We are not 6/4 (we should not be at least,, taking into account our competition and our history)

That is a poor price, take into consideration Liverpools inability to perform consistently for a whole season, Spurs troubles and all the new players they have that have not gelled yet, they have yet to prove they can sustain a CL push, even with Bale they fell short last season, next season they will be serious contenders, if the stick with AVB, but this season is still unlikely, who else? Everton? Not a hope they will sustain a challenge for 4th over the season. They are enjoying a purple patch right now, so were Southampton recently, in the end they will fall away as they always do.

Any other realistic contenders for 4th?

United are playing as poorly as they possibly can right now and are missing big players yet are still 7 points from 4th, 6 behind Everton and 8 behind Liverpool. Its all in Uniteds hands, at some stage the team has got to either click in the way Moyes wants them to play and do it effectively, Moyes can alter his game plans since they are not working or the players can actually say, you know what, **** this, we can beat these guys lets just do it

When Carrick comes back the midfield will look a lot more solid, and will also make us more solid defensively, the defence needs to be settled, this is obvious, there is too much rotation there and up front RVP has been missing and now needs to get fit and the goals will start flowing again.

The lack of creativity is down to poor performance and poor tactics, this cant last for a whole season! Something will change..

6/4 is a very generous price, if still available today I would advise it as a good investment

KH25

yabadabado wrote: »

If Gundongan and Di Maria were signed in January it would be the a huge boost but there is little chance of either happening imo.total cost for both would be 70m+ .be 2 great additions and would make an immediate impact and be a vast improvement on the current players in midfield and wing .

Cost shouldn't be an issue. Top players cost big money and there's no changing that at least for the time being. However, I can't see Woodward making that big of an outlay on players. I can easily see us overpaying for someone from the PL like Lambert though. :rolleyes:

yabadabado

KH25 wrote: »

Cost shouldn't be an issue. Top players cost big money and there's no changing that at least for the time being. However, I can't see Woodward making that big of an outlay on players. I can easily see us overpaying for someone from the PL like Lambert though. :rolleyes:

Cost always seems to be an issue with United.They should have just offered Barca 45M for Fabregas in the summer and a lot of problems would have been solved if he joined.

DeanAustin

KH25 wrote: »

Cost shouldn't be an issue. Top players cost big money and there's no changing that at least for the time being. However, I can't see Woodward making that big of an outlay on players. I can easily see us overpaying for someone from the PL like Lambert though. :rolleyes:

Of course cost will be an issue. Clubs will try and have your pants down in January because they'll know you're desperate. Do you really want to overpay for players?

It becomes more relevant if the tangible cost of missing out on the CL is less than the cost of the players that you think might get you there. I know there are other considerations (damage to the "brand", will players come in the summer etc.) but at the end of the day, like it or not, the Glazers are running a business and they aren't going to overpay for players particularly when there is no guarantee that you'll get CL football even by spending big.

Lord TSC

kryogen wrote: »

United are playing as poorly as they possibly can right now and are missing big players yet are still 7 points from 4th, 6 behind Everton and 8 behind Liverpool.

This logic annoys me. We're also 9 points from the relegation zone, yet if I tried to use that as a reason to sack Moyes, I'd (rightly) be lambasted.

When Carrick comes back the midfield will look a lot more solid

It's not like we were doing well when Carrick wasn't out hurt. But this seems to be the newest excuse as well; blaming the lack of Carrick for our poor run, when ironically I think we've looked better in the last handful of games than the ones before. The ones Carrick was, funny enough, involved in.

The lack of creativity is down to poor performance and poor tactics, this cant last for a whole season! Something will change..

If we keep saying that, maybe it'll become truth.

kryogen

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

This logic annoys me. We're also 9 points from the relegation zone, yet if I tried to use that as a reason to sack Moyes, I'd (rightly) be lambasted.



It's not like we were doing well when Carrick wasn't out hurt. But this seems to be the newest excuse as well; blaming the lack of Carrick for our poor run, when ironically I think we've looked better in the last handful of games than the ones before. The ones Carrick was, funny enough, involved in.



If we keep saying that, maybe it'll become truth.

We are 9 points from the relegation zone, playing as poorly as we can, so we are still pretty safe? Maybe you misunderstood the point of what I said, we cannot get any worse and we are still a couple of results away from top 4.

The whole team is playing poorly, when the spine of the team comes back and plays together it will improve, this is obvious. Who blames having no Carrick for our poor run? Is this just the latest nonsensical argument to be levelled at people? Hang on, you actually think we looked better against Newcastle then against some of the teams we played earlier in the season? Jesus Christ

Lastly, you think nothing will change at all over the season? Nothing, the players will continue to play poorly, Moyes will never be able to either impose his philosophy on the team in a winning manner or adapt his tactics when it has become pretty clear they are not working?

There is delusion there alright

Tl;dr

You missed the point

Carrick is our best midfielder, when he plays well the team will play better

Nothing ever stays the same

beno619

yabadabado wrote: »

Cost always seems to be an issue with United.They should have just offered Barca 45M for Fabregas in the summer and a lot of problems would have been solved if he joined.

True, Cesc was open to moving but we tried to low ball Barca for a world class player.

Its a sellers market, right now saving 15M and missing out on Fabregas has cost us big, apart from Arsenal the big four have not shown up this year.

Mars Bar

I don't remember once seeing anything from Fabregas that gave the impression that he wanted to move.

kryogen

Mars Bar wrote: »

I don't remember once seeing anything from Fabregas that gave the impression that he wanted to move.

I don't think he wanted a move, but I think he would have moved if Barca told him he could go, if you know what I mean

beno619

Mars Bar wrote: »

I don't remember once seeing anything from Fabregas that gave the impression that he wanted to move.

The fact that he kept quite until it was apparent that Woodward was a joker and we wouldn't offer barca the market price for a world class player.

Similar to how Rooney kept quiet as Chelsea didn't offer the silly money that might make us consider selling him.

KH25

DeanAustin wrote: »

Of course cost will be an issue. Clubs will try and have your pants down in January because they'll know you're desperate. Do you really want to overpay for players?

It becomes more relevant if the tangible cost of missing out on the CL is less than the cost of the players that you think might get you there. I know there are other considerations (damage to the "brand", will players come in the summer etc.) but at the end of the day, like it or not, the Glazers are running a business and they aren't going to overpay for players particularly when there is no guarantee that you'll get CL football even by spending big.

Of course I don't want to overpay for players. What Im saying is that to get top players you have to pay top dollar, within reason. You can't try and low ball a club for a top talent as the Fabregas thing showed.

Lord TSC

kryogen wrote: »

We are 9 points from the relegation zone, playing as poorly as we can, so we are still pretty safe? Maybe you misunderstood the point of what I said, we cannot get any worse and we are still a couple of results away from top 4.

I think to say "Well things can't get any worse" is a defeatist attitude, and one which leads teams to bad places. Since when is it ok to settle for "things can't get worse"?

The whole team is playing poorly, when the spine of the team comes back and plays together it will improve, this is obvious. Who blames having no Carrick for our poor run? Is this just the latest nonsensical argument to be levelled at people? Hang on, you actually think we looked better against Newcastle then against some of the teams we played earlier in the season? Jesus Christ

The idea that Carrick's return will herald a change in fortune has been tossed around a few times in the last few days, and seems to ignore that when he was playing, he was quite out of form as well. The idea that his return will somehow allow Moyes to become a master tactician again is the one I'm debating against. I, personally, don't think his return will do anything to change bad team selections, unmotivated players or the host of other problems that exist under Moyes.

Lastly, you think nothing will change at all over the season? Nothing, the players will continue to play poorly, Moyes will never be able to either impose his philosophy on the team in a winning manner or adapt his tactics when it has become pretty clear they are not working?

For one, I don't think Moyes has a philosophy that can be "winning" at all, so no, I don't think a change will come there. Moyes is overly negative on a consistent basis, and I don't think time will change what he thinks is an ok way to instruct the team to play.

I think with every game, the players become less and less confident in Moyes and have given up. That will only get worse as time goes on. Personally, I think Moyes has found his level right now; able to beat the teams in the bottom half of the table, but consistently bad against the top teams, and that's not good enough for me. He's shown nothing so far that convinces me that time will let him impose a winning philosophy at all. If anything, I think the more time Moyes gets, the more damage he'll cause at the club.

Dont be at yourself

kryogen wrote: »

We are not 6/4 (we should not be at least,, taking into account our competition and our history)

That is a poor price, take into consideration Liverpools inability to perform consistently for a whole season, Spurs troubles and all the new players they have that have not gelled yet, they have yet to prove they can sustain a CL push, even with Bale they fell short last season, next season they will be serious contenders, if the stick with AVB, but this season is still unlikely, who else? Everton? Not a hope they will sustain a challenge for 4th over the season. They are enjoying a purple patch right now, so were Southampton recently, in the end they will fall away as they always do.

Any other realistic contenders for 4th?

United are playing as poorly as they possibly can right now and are missing big players yet are still 7 points from 4th, 6 behind Everton and 8 behind Liverpool. Its all in Uniteds hands, at some stage the team has got to either click in the way Moyes wants them to play and do it effectively, Moyes can alter his game plans since they are not working or the players can actually say, you know what, **** this, we can beat these guys lets just do it

When Carrick comes back the midfield will look a lot more solid, and will also make us more solid defensively, the defence needs to be settled, this is obvious, there is too much rotation there and up front RVP has been missing and now needs to get fit and the goals will start flowing again.

The lack of creativity is down to poor performance and poor tactics, this cant last for a whole season! Something will change..

6/4 is a very generous price, if still available today I would advise it as a good investment

What an amazing head-in-the-sand post.

Taking into account your competition and history? What do Cleverely, Phil Jones, Ashley Young etc know about winning a dog-fight for 4th? It's a whole different ball-game playing in a team cantering to the title to one that's under huge pressure from other clubs, the media and, increasingly, the fans. Indeed, what does David Moyes know about winning such contests?

As for the teams around you; that's exactly why you should be worried. Liverpool - historically out of the league by October - are second. Man City, Spurs, Chelsea have all had terrible starts by their standards (City can't win away, Spurs can't score, Mourinho has less points than AVB did at the same time), and yet they're still ahead of you. As are a very good Everton side, and Newcastle (taken points from Liverpool, Chelsea and United) and Southampton. All can reasonably fancy themselves for a shot at 4th. To get 4th, you don't just need to match these teams result-for-result, you need to better their results. And very little over the last 15 games - a significant sample size - suggests your capable of that.

United are missing their big players, absolutely. Is that just by chance, though? Or is their merit to the argument of not over-training ageing injury-prone players. Certainly the likes of Van Persie, Carrick, Rio, Vidic, Evra can't put in a decent 90 minute performance, let alone a run of games. Is that just a co-incidence, or to do with their preparation? I don't mean to overstate it, but these are the players who won the league at a canter last year.

A bigger worry is the lack of effort and grumblings of discontent from the players. We've seen it with Rafa, Hodgson, AVB and others in recent years. Once results are bad, the players find it very easy to hide, and let the manager take the criticism. Even if the players are in the wrong here, there's only one man who will get the bullet.

The poor fitness, poor attitude and poor tactics can last for a whole season. Nothing in the last 4 months, or the last 10 years' of David Moyes's career, suggest otherwise.

DeanAustin

KH25 wrote: »

Of course I don't want to overpay for players. What Im saying is that to get top players you have to pay top dollar, within reason. You can't try and low ball a club for a top talent as the Fabregas thing showed.

You can, clubs have been doing it for years.

Is there any indication that Fabregas would have left?

Ed The Equalizer

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

If anything, I think the more time Moyes gets, the more damage he'll cause at the club.

I agree... the only thing damaged by getting rid of Moyes asap would be himself and Fergie's egos, assuming of course he's replaced with someone who knows what success is.

But leave it too long and there could be serious long-term damage.

Cantona's Collars

Squaka have the graphs & stats that show how we were dominated in midfield by Newcastle.

http://www.squawka.com/news/2013/12/09/tiote-and-cabaye-represent-a-dream-midfield-for-manchester-united-at-this-point/2013120941989

Your Airbag

beno619 wrote: »

The fact that he kept quite until it was apparent that Woodward was a joker and we wouldn't offer barca the market price for a world class player.

Similar to how Rooney kept quiet as Chelsea didn't offer the silly money that might make us consider selling him.

UTD offered 40m for Khedira late in the window so I'm certain if Barca had a figure that UTD would have paid up. Neither Barca or the player wanted the move.

kryogen

Dont be at yourself wrote: »

What an amazing head-in-the-sand post.

Taking into account your competition and history? What do Cleverely, Phil Jones, Ashley Young etc know about winning a dog-fight for 4th? It's a whole different ball-game playing in a team cantering to the title to one that's under huge pressure from other clubs, the media and, increasingly, the fans. Indeed, what does David Moyes know about winning such contests?

As for the teams around you; that's exactly why you should be worried. Liverpool - historically out of the league by October - are second. Man City, Spurs, Chelsea have all had terrible starts by their standards (City can't win away, Spurs can't score, Mourinho has less points than AVB did at the same time), and yet they're still ahead of you. As are a very good Everton side, and Newcastle (taken points from Liverpool, Chelsea and United) and Southampton. All can reasonably fancy themselves for a shot at 4th. To get 4th, you don't just need to match these teams result-for-result, you need to better their results. And very little over the last 15 games - a significant sample size - suggests your capable of that.

United are missing their big players, absolutely. Is that just by chance, though? Or is their merit to the argument of not over-training ageing injury-prone players. Certainly the likes of Van Persie, Carrick, Rio, Vidic, Evra can't put in a decent 90 minute performance, let alone a run of games. Is that just a co-incidence, or to do with their preparation? I don't mean to overstate it, but these are the players who won the league at a canter last year.

A bigger worry is the lack of effort and grumblings of discontent from the players. We've seen it with Rafa, Hodgson, AVB and others in recent years. Once results are bad, the players find it very easy to hide, and let the manager take the criticism. Even if the players are in the wrong here, there's only one man who will get the bullet.

The poor fitness, poor attitude and poor tactics can last for a whole season. Nothing in the last 4 months, or the last 10 years' of David Moyes's career, suggest otherwise.

Getting into a drawn out debate today is not something time will allow, so I will bookmark this and if I forget to respond to you at least I will be able to pull it out at the end of the season while doing a victory dance

The first few lines, you think the pressure of going for a league title, needing to win every week is less then battling for 4th spot in the league says it all really, and this misguided opinion that the team has only ever cantered to league titles, league titles are not cantered toward from the start of the season, they are earned through consistently beating your opposition.

That's all I have time for

kryogen

Your Airbag wrote: »

UTD offered 40m for Khedira late in the window so I'm certain if Barca had a figure that UTD would have paid up. Neither Barca or the player wanted the move.

The 40 million been confirmed?

KH25

DeanAustin wrote: »

You can, clubs have been doing it for years.

Is there any indication that Fabregas would have left?

You cannot offer 25million for a player like Fabregas. Its ridiculous. It doesn't matter if he wanted to go or not. Even if he did and was pushing for the move Barca would never have accepted 25m.