Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14 Mod warning post #718

NIMAN

I'm going to hazard a guess that Moyes won't be there come 2019.

Pro. F

SlickRic wrote: »

that's frightening.

great from my point of view, but staggeringly shocking from a Utd point of view.

what I don't understand is...

can the players not just say "fúck this" and go out and win?
have they forgotten what they used to do under Fergie at home?
has the manager sucked all of that out in 3 months or so?

it's so, so weird.

it's why Moyes is partly to blame, obviously, but the players have to take huge responsibility for what's going on. they can't have just forgotten how to play expansively. it's not possible. they're not fúcking robots.

It looks clear to me that Moyes is directing the team with strict and precise control. He is a defensive, reactionary manager. Not the type to allow players to do their own thing.

dobman88

Idbatterim wrote: »

long term?! they wont the EPL last year! that makes it sound like united were former great, descended into mediocrity and now need someone to take them back to past glories... They were at the top. Bayern recently have a new manager, won the CL and German league, do you think that they would tolerate a second rate manager or going from last years success, with the same players and saying, we have to rebuild?!

when your at the top an with united history and success, you just get another top class manager and take off from where fergie finished... Goes to show you the massive difference the manager can make, from what I see, the board are about running a profitable club, they see it as a business, surely its a hell of a lot cheaper, to do it with a great manager and good players, rather than an average manager and having to get great players in to compensate...

Your being very harsh on Moyes there imo. Fergie was the best and most successful manager in the last 25 years. Nobody could have "picked u where he left off" as you say. Guardiola is at Bayern and Mourinho at Chelsea. They are the only two with any credentials similar to Fergie. It was an impossible task for any manager. The players have to take part of the blame too, not just the manager.

jonnyfingers

Pro. F wrote: »

It looks clear to me that Moyes is directing the team with strict and precise control. He is a defensive, reactionary manager. Not the type to allow players to do their own thing.

Yeah but if you're losing in the last 10 minutes of a game and you're a top player like Rooney, Van Persie, Vidic etc. you do what you can to get that equaliser, regardless of what the manager has instructed. Also Moyes hardly told them to not bother in the last 10 minutes of the last two games, which is what they did. The players are better than that.

TheDoc

Pro. F wrote: »

It looks clear to me that Moyes is directing the team with strict and precise control. He is a defensive, reactionary manager. Not the type to allow players to do their own thing.

I think its guessing game on our parts, alot being made out about the training regime, I honestly don't know what the problem is. Was the fitness coach(s) removed aswell as other staff when Moyes came in, or same staff with new regime?

Moyes Everton sides were always fit as **** and could go until the 90th minute, same with United sides to be honest, so I'm not sure what to read into it.

Rooney looks in the best shape of his life. Nani too. A good few players look to be in great condition, but the older guys seem to be suffering.

Personally believe alot of onus needs to lie on the players here, there was been some derp individual mistakes along with careless passing and lack of movement, that I don't think is down to Moyes deploying a rigid system.

I think people look too much into how someone operated before and what they CAN do. Moyes had to operate a certain way with EVerton for a number of well documented reasons.

Agueroooo

Dont forget UTD are a p.l.c and as soon as the rumours about Fergie quitting broke they moved quickly to announce Moyes to protect the share price which started to dip in that 24hr period.

The 6yr contract would have also been a sign of stability to the markets.

Your Airbag

Pro. F wrote: »

Widely reported doesn't prove and neither does United not denying something. So I would remain unconvinced about that figure until I see something more substantial.

I've just shown how Ogden was making claims based on nothing quotes, so I don't find another unsubstantiated comment by him any more reliable.

Never claimed Ogden was any more reliable than any other journalist. I said it was widely reported and I took the two first hits as there are many to pick from on Google but used Ogden because it was mentioned on here that he is considered reliable. I guess its possible the bid was not 40m, may have been more or less. Everyone from SSN to the beeb and plenty of papers went with the 40m tag but if you can suggest it was not and supply evidence I'd happily consider it.

DeanAustin

dobman88 wrote: »

Your being very harsh on Moyes there imo. Fergie was the best and most successful manager in the last 25 years. Nobody could have "picked u where he left off" as you say. Guardiola is at Bayern and Mourinho at Chelsea. They are the only two with any credentials similar to Fergie. It was an impossible task for any manager. The players have to take part of the blame too, not just the manager.

Not really. It is a tough job but not impossible.

Most United fans I know would be happy with a top 4 finish and some will take a top 6 finish as long as they see progress and potential. The squad Fergie left had some problems but they are league champions and easily capable of top 4.

The undeniable fact is that Moyes is underperforming. It's in tough circumstances but that's his job and that's why he's well paid. If he continues to underperform as he is currently doing, he'll be sacked and rightly so.

He's not expected to be Fergie but he is expected to get enough out of a talented squad to be in the top 4. That's not an unreasonable expectation.

NIMAN

Agueroooo wrote: »

Dont forget UTD are a p.l.c and as soon as the rumours about Fergie quitting broke they moved quickly to announce Moyes to protect the share price which started to dip in that 24hr period.

The 6yr contract would have also been a sign of stability to the markets.

.. is the share price likely to tumble if they have a 6 year period like they are having now?

tallaghtmick

It's heartbreaking watching us under Moyes, I honestly see Wenger being the last long time manager as football has changed too much in the last few years, and we are clinging onto it, A lot of you will disagree but we need to be ruthless.

Agueroooo

NIMAN wrote: »

.. is the share price likely to tumble if they have a 6 year period like they are having now?

CL money is critical to UTD and how the service the debt payments (£70mil p.a) according to their year end results, so yes, if UTD fail to qualify for CL then that will be detrimental to the share price.

But I don't think for one second that will happen on a continous basis.
No matter who is managing UTD (during this current financial model) will get the bullet if a revenue stream like the CL is under risk.

ericzeking

Mitch Connor wrote: »

You claim United never had a chance with Fabregas and were never aware of a figure to sign him - Ogden says different.

Funny that.

Is this the famous figure of 40m for Fabregas we keep hearing about on this thread?
As I said a few posts back I find it impossible to believe that we would not pay an extra 5m for Fabregas and yet had an extra 4m just lying around for Fellaini as well as all the other bids we apparently made for the likes of Bale and Khedira and the fact we are so flush with cash apparently.

I don't buy it at all at all, if Fabregas was moving money would have had nothing to do with it, playing time in WC year was his motivation if he ever had any vague notion of moving...... I'm gonna do a Homer on it

Your Airbag

SlickRic wrote: »

that's frightening.

great from my point of view, but staggeringly shocking from a Utd point of view.

what I don't understand is...

can the players not just say "fúck this" and go out and win?
have they forgotten what they used to do under Fergie at home?
has the manager sucked all of that out in 3 months or so?

it's so, so weird.

it's why Moyes is partly to blame, obviously, but the players have to take huge responsibility for what's going on. they can't have just forgotten how to play expansively. it's not possible. they're not fúcking robots.

jonnyfingers wrote: »

Yeah but if you're losing in the last 10 minutes of a game and you're a top player like Rooney, Van Persie, Vidic etc. you do what you can to get that equaliser, regardless of what the manager has instructed. Also Moyes hardly told them to not bother in the last 10 minutes of the last two games, which is what they did. The players are better than that.

Both spot on, a lot of this is on the players too and long standing problems at UTD that have become critical.

Moyes has taken on a much more difficult job than what he and the public initially thought and its certainly not as easy as guiding a title win squad to another title

The current squad and UTD are at a real tipping point. We have weak areas in the squad, many of our average players should have been gone or not brought in under Fergie, a lot of our best players are a year older (Rio, Vidic, Carrick, RVP) and some of our best may want out (Rooney, Chico, Kagawa). The club is still in debt although its dropping and we have a new manager and backroom staff plus the Spainish and German giants keep getting stronger and seem to be the lure for the games top talent.

Things could really go from bad to worse to catastrophic if this is not handled correctly. IMO Moyes has a huge Job on his hands to turn all of this around and is at risk of being made the scapegoat for all of the above if things go south. He will be partially to blame but a lot of this has been festering for years.

Indications so far from our play and some of the things Moyes has said in various interviews is that he was not quite ready for a job this big yet or he didn't know what to expect. At Everton they were the underdogs but at UTD he is expected to win every game. This does not mean he cannot learn and become a manager we are happy with but right now its an unanswered question.

The January transfer window and second half of the season really is make or brake time for Moyes. Any supporters he has left will be calling for his head if our poor form continues into the new year if he hasn't strenghtened the squad. I am willing to wait until he builds a sqaud of his own and would give him two seasons to do that but I feel I'm alone in my patience, I just think Fergie was allowed to rebuild and come back with a fighting squad so Moyes should be allowed at least one chance at this also.

Moyes has control over the team selection and training but when it comes to signing players he is up against the Madrids/Bayerns etc and their exec's, the agents of some top players and the players themselves. Its not an area of managment where you are in total control.

Carrick and RVP like I said are a year older. Both were relatively injury free under Fergie last season, I think even Fergie would have found it difficult had both those players been injured last season, although I don't think we would in the same position we are now. I remember when RVP rescued us in the early part of last season that many of us back then though we would be outside the top four was it not for him and all those comebacks.

Thats another thing going against Moyes. He has taken over a title winning sqaud and he will judged on the basis of whether they retain the title or not but we have seen some average players fail to improve, some good players turn average and some of our best players now a year older hit with injuries. The squad is still good enough for top four but with the way other clubs around us have strenghted and our own unaddressed issues have weakened us.

Again just look at how we depended on RVP last season, it was said he won us 27 points and while thats a good thing for him its bad for squad strenght on the whole. There is and was a squad imbalance that was left unaddressed for a few seasons now.

Idbatterim

exactly, what will the cost of competing for nothing or only the mickey mouse trophies be. Thats what I meant, the united directors are hoping to make returns on their investment, its not a hobby for them, like it is with Abramovich, he who pays the piper, calls the tune. Id be furious if I were a united fan, if things didnt turn around quickly, champions consistently for years, down to mid table mediocrity in several months?!

say for example, this seasons finished, the next one gets off to a similar bad start, how long do you wait before you do something, because at this stage, the EPL will be gone...

Pro. F

jonnyfingers wrote: »

Yeah but if you're losing in the last 10 minutes of a game and you're a top player like Rooney, Van Persie, Vidic etc. you do what you can to get that equaliser, regardless of what the manager has instructed. Also Moyes hardly told them to not bother in the last 10 minutes of the last two games, which is what they did. The players are better than that.

The style doesn't lend itself to last ten minute come backs. The players are mostly spent by then.

Plus if you have been following a game plan all game - one which was worked on all week in training and is in the mold of the strategy that you have been following all season - then a decision to change things from a few senior players in the last ten minutes isn't going to be very effective at altering how the play is going.

The idea that players would ignore manager instructions is not realistic anyway. Some managers sure, but not all managers. I don't see any evidence that Moyes would be the type of manager who would allow players to ignore his instructions.

TheDoc wrote: »

Moyes Everton sides were always fit as **** and could go until the 90th minute, same with United sides to be honest, so I'm not sure what to read into it.

Fit yes, but going strong until the 90th minute? Not true from what I saw at Everton. They tended to play the same tempo all game and hold nothing in reserve so the fatigue showed late in games. The opposite of what United used to do under Fergie, playing with the specific aim of finishing strong.

TheDoc wrote: »

Personally believe alot of onus needs to lie on the players here, there was been some derp individual mistakes along with careless passing and lack of movement, that I don't think is down to Moyes deploying a rigid system.

I think people look too much into how someone operated before and what they CAN do. Moyes had to operate a certain way with EVerton for a number of well documented reasons.

Moyes definitely has the team playing in that rigid style. They're obviously following a script, otherwise the patterns of passing wouldn't be so consistently the same all the time. Same patterns of passing that we saw at Everton too.

I agree that we can only guess at what is going on behind the scenes for a lot of it. But they can be educated guesses based on what Moyes has expressed about his management ideas up to now. And we can analyse the end result on the pitch.

Agueroooo

January transfer window is going to really interesting for UTD.

Would you guys be OK with Moyes getting a massive budget to spend, and if the board look to be holding off with releasing funds would that be a good gauge on confidence between the directors and the first team manager?

Lord TSC

Two sentences jump out at me there...

I am willing to wait until he builds a sqaud of his own and would give him two seasons to do that but I feel I'm alone in my patience

Honestly, I just don't trust him to build a title challenging squad. I've seen nothing that doesn't make me think he'll just buy a squad of negative players. I've no reason he's capable of rebuilding the squad that United demands, and worse, I fear he'll ship out a lot of our great players in the process.

He has taken over a title winning sqaud and he will judged on the basis of whether they retain the title or not

Disagree. He'll be judged on if he can mount a challange or at least keep us top 4. I think the majority of fans knew that a title challange would be a dream this year, but most lowered their expectations before he started. Fergie even helped with that with the speech of "Stick behind him".

But even with these lowered expectations, he's still preforming well below par....

tallaghtmick

Agueroooo wrote: »

January transfer window is going to really interesting for UTD.

Would you guys be OK with Moyes getting a massive budget to spend, and if the board look to be holding off with releasing funds would that be a good gauge on confidence between the directors and the first team manager?

I'm still trying to forget the summer window!

Pro. F

Your Airbag wrote: »

Never claimed Ogden was any more reliable than any other journalist. I said it was widely reported and I took the two first hits as there are many to pick from on Google but used Ogden because it was mentioned on here that he is considered reliable. I guess its possible the bid was not 40m, may have been more or less. Everyone from SSN to the beeb and plenty of papers went with the 40m tag but if you can suggest it was not and supply evidence I'd happily consider it.

I am not making any claim to know what the bid was.

You were challenged to provide a reliable source for the €40m bid claim. You failed. Just because they were the first two hits you found on google and you didn't bother looking for anything better doesn't make it any different.

Your only evidence that the bid was €40m is that it was widely reported. That is extremely flimsy evidence.

titan18

Agueroooo wrote: »

January transfer window is going to really interesting for UTD.

Would you guys be OK with Moyes getting a massive budget to spend, and if the board look to be holding off with releasing funds would that be a good gauge on confidence between the directors and the first team manager?

I'd rather loaning in players was looked at rather than giving Moyes and Woodward a big budget to play with.

adox

Agueroooo wrote: »

January transfer window is going to really interesting for UTD.

Would you guys be OK with Moyes getting a massive budget to spend, and if the board look to be holding off with releasing funds would that be a good gauge on confidence between the directors and the first team manager?

The boards need to decide before January to do one of two things:

Get rid of Moyes and get someone else in, be it til the end of the season or longer term or

Give Moyes a big budget to go out and spend.

Neither will happen.

Your Airbag

Pro. F wrote: »

Moyes definitely has the team playing in that rigid style.

This is Moyes biggest flaw so far. The amount of room between our DMF player and the rest at times is shocking.

You can see it here

http://i.imgur.com/Hg2I8eG.png


This can lead to a lack of MF support when we are attacking. Kagawa, Val and Welbz in the box with Rooney on the ball but there is no sign of United’s midfielders offering support to the attack and we are outnumbered defensively. Its too cautious and 7 Everton players against 4 utd



Everton had an extra man in attack and they positioned themselves outside the area in case the initial attack broke down, both defensively and offensively sound.



When our fullbacks are not getting forward the MF is not doing enough and our wingbacks don't get into the box obviously and sometimes our wingers are in there too early and when it breaks down its allowing them opposition to get to our box to quickly

miralize

Outsider looking in here, and to be honest I think most of you will consider this bullsh1t but on Moyes tactical decisions I think its obvious what he's done (wrong).

This may sound daft but I think Moyes bought into the idea of United having a poor midfield when arriving a bit too much. It was a common topic of discussion among the media and most united fans themselves. Yes you have perhaps one solid player there in Carrick but you also have a semi decent number of squad players who can play in midfield beside him. Moyes probably didnt/doesn't see it that way.

This is pure speculation on my part but I think Moyes sought to combat this in two ways. One was initially when starting out training the team in preseason, he placed an over emphasis on aggressive wing play from both the wingers and the wing backs, long cross-field diagonal balls from the central of defence, effectively to compensate for the poor midfield everyone had talked about.

Secondly he also looked to purchase in CM, but we all know how that went. Buying Fellaini was on paper a good idea, but I'll get to why I think Fellaini isnt working out in a second. His tactics were already being engrained in the players before he bought Fellaini, and I guess he thought it was working, with the wins agains swansea & wigan. By the time Fellaini came in, Moyes was set on crossing for being the primary source of goals. Fellaini does have an engine FFS, he can ball carry effectively.

But, you cant just ignore the centre of midfield, which is what United have done so far. I don't think Moyes has trust in the midfield to do any sort of job, and so he piles on the pressure onto the wingers and wing backs for chance creation. Evra has looked poor defensively, but it's as clear as day as to why. He's knackered. The overlapping wing play is good when you have players who can cross the ball. Valencia has had huge pressure on him to perform after a poor last season.

Fellaini is left wandering in midfield, no clear objectives, besides pass to the wingers. Same with anyone in the centre for you for that matter. Your strikers have no service because your wingers have no crossing ability, your wingers have no support in midfield for passing options, your midfield was neglected not just by not buying the right players, but also by not giving them something to do offensively, and so your full backs push up, and your centre backs are left isolated.

Its all just a bit archaic imo.

Your Airbag

Pro. F wrote: »

I am not making any claim to know what the bid was.

You were challenged to provide a reliable source for the €40m bid claim. You failed. Just because they were the first two hits you found on google and you didn't bother looking for anything better doesn't make it any different.

Your only evidence that the bid was €40m is that it was widely reported. That is extremely flimsy evidence.

I have also said its possible it was not 40m. I still stand by the its more likely it is 40m than not basis given what we can find and given I have listed more than one source and mentioned others such as SSN, BBC and others as well as you mentioning Spanish radio station Cadena Cope. I will await you to prove or discredit them but its obvious your more interested in starting a row than anything else.


Seeming as I failed when you "challenged me" to prove evidence on something I have said may not be possible I guess you "failed when challenged" I mean asked to provide sources on the price being different whilst also claiming not knowing what it was.

Pro. F

Your Airbag wrote: »

I have also said its possible it was not 40m. I still stand by the its more likely it is 40m than not basis given what we can find and given I have listed more than one source and mentioned others such as SSN, BBC and others as well as you mentioning Spanish radio station Cadena Cope. I will await you to prove or discredit them but its obvious your more interested in starting a row than anything else.


Seeming as I failed when you "challenged me" to prove evidence on something I have said may not be possible I guess you "failed when challenged" I mean asked to provide sources on the price being different whilst also claiming not knowing what it was.

You're the one who made the claim, so it's you with the onus to prove it. Your proof is that it was widely reported.

Danger781

miralize wrote: »

Outsider looking in here, and to be honest I think most of you will consider this bullsh1t but on Moyes tactical decisions I think its obvious what he's done (wrong).

This may sound daft but I think Moyes bought into the idea of United having a poor midfield when arriving a bit too much. It was a common topic of discussion among the media and most united fans themselves. Yes you have perhaps one solid player there in Carrick but you also have a semi decent number of squad players who can play in midfield beside him. Moyes probably didnt/doesn't see it that way.

This is pure speculation on my part but I think Moyes sought to combat this in two ways. One was initially when starting out training the team in preseason, he placed an over emphasis on aggressive wing play from both the wingers and the wing backs, long cross-field diagonal balls from the central of defence, effectively to compensate for the poor midfield everyone had talked about.

Secondly he also looked to purchase in CM, but we all know how that went. Buying Fellaini was on paper a good idea, but I'll get to why I think Fellaini isnt working out in a second. His tactics were already being engrained in the players before he bought Fellaini, and I guess he thought it was working, with the wins agains swansea & wigan. By the time Fellaini came in, Moyes was set on crossing for being the primary source of goals. Fellaini does have an engine FFS, he can ball carry effectively.

But, you cant just ignore the centre of midfield, which is what United have done so far. I don't think Moyes has trust in the midfield to do any sort of job, and so he piles on the pressure onto the wingers and wing backs for chance creation. Evra has looked poor defensively, but it's as clear as day as to why. He's knackered. The overlapping wing play is good when you have players who can cross the ball. Valencia has had huge pressure on him to perform after a poor last season.

Fellaini is left wandering in midfield, no clear objectives, besides pass to the wingers. Same with anyone in the centre for you for that matter. Your strikers have no service because your wingers have no crossing ability, your wingers have no support in midfield for passing options, your midfield was neglected not just by not buying the right players, but also by not giving them something to do offensively, and so your full backs push up, and your centre backs are left isolated.

Its all just a bit archaic imo.

I did notice a lot of wing play against Newcastle.

I was okay with this though as I don't think a Cleverly / Jones partnership could have done anything anyway.

v3ttel

Idbatterim wrote: »

they won the EPL last year! .

With a squad that had many problems, especially in the CM and on both wings. Most games were very closely contested, hanging on against Liverpool, Southampton, West Ham, etc at Old Trafford. The level of performance is not too dissimilar to last year in many regards.

The center midfield was desperately reliant on Carrick (currently injured), and the brilliant of Van Persie (stop/start season so far) to scrape results.

Idbatterim wrote: »

when your at the top an with united history and success, you just get another top class manager and take off from where fergie finished...

Show me another club that has had a manager for 26 years, who has won every trophy over his tenure, and lets see how they got on in replacing him? This is a unique situation.

When Ferguson announced his retirement in 2002, the teams form suffered with 6 defeats in the first half of the season. Even the prospect of him not being there was a shock. He was the most important and most influential person at the club. You don't flick a switch and all wash away all of that anyway.

There is scarcely a manager in world football (bar Mourinho, who comes with enormous baggage) who could step in and wash away the influence of 26 years with the click of a finger.

The expectations you have are completely unrealistic in that regard.

Idbatterim wrote: »

Uniteds fan and the board, surely wont accept this for much longer?

If you think that any board that has Sir Bobby Charlton and Sir Alex Ferguson sitting on it, is going to sack a manager after 15 games, then you couldn't possibly be more wrong.

Most reasonable fans acknowledge that United's squad is lacking quality in certain areas. Of course you are going to have the "OMG, we're not winning every game, sack the manager" brigade, but that's complete dross in my opinion.

If Moyes has 2 seasons, shaped the squad, imposed his philosophy, and United are not competing for the Premier league, then perhaps it's time for a change. That is definitely not the case in early December of his first season.

United have played 15 games in the Premier league. The manager has made one signing. He is largely inheriting a squad with wingers who are desperately out of form, and a center midfield relying on a 40 year old and a center back. His one signing has not hit the ground running as can happen when any manager makes a signing.

Two of the most influential players (Carrick, RVP), have had stop/start seasons. Moyes has clearly not got every bit of performance out of the players he has at his disposal. That is not to say he is a bad manager. It goes to show how brilliant Ferguson is and how much importance he had at the club.

Jose Mourinho wrote:

If it was another club I'd tell you it's impossible, but with Manchester United I don't say that

The reasons are because of the potential of the team, what the club represents and the culture of the club. It's not a club in panic. It's not a club where you feel the end of the world is arriving.

They are calm, they go the same way and support the manager. Nobody touches the manager.

They have a project. If they don't win this season they believe they will win next season.

It's a very, very stable situation and an example to many others. Because of that they are still a contender.

They will stick together, they will fight and try to get 12 to 15 points in a row.

miralize

Danger781 wrote: »

I did notice a lot of wing play against Newcastle.

I was okay with this though as I don't think a Cleverly / Jones partnership could have done anything anyway.

I'm in the minority here, but Cleverley is a very tidy passer. Play him a bit higher up, put less pressure on him to tackle, let him pass, and he will split defences. He needs 2 extra defensive midfielders beside him though. He isnt a box to box sort of player.

Rayne Wooney

The question isn't whether Fabregas wanted to leave or not, the question is are Barca so cash strapped that they would sell a player who will probably be a sub more often than not in the next season or two to fund a move for the CB they so badly need.

I believe yes they would have, but that 25m offer for him was fcuking embarrassing.

Is it down to the Glazers? For the past few years I get the impression that we've been sitting at the table with Madrid/Barca/Bayern, and while the rest have been drinking expensive wine, we've been having Ribena and pretending it's wine. We're meant to be one of the biggest clubs in the world and yet seem so reluctant to spend money even when it's obvious to everyone that we badly need to spend.

If Ryanair did football clubs I'd imagine they'd handle the transfers similarly to us.

Your Airbag

Pro. F wrote: »

You're the one who made the claim, so it's you with the onus to prove it. Your proof is that it was widely reported.

Yes and you mentioned this is not good enough for you, I get it. Kedhira confirming the bid and it being reported that is 40m and neither player or either club involved denying any of this is better than anything to the contrary.

You also claimed this evidence was not enough, flimsy etc and I "failed". I said I was open to any substantial proof that said otherwise and "challenged" your claim to show me otherwise. I'll be right here on the edge of my seat waiting for you to "succeed" in your claim (you went all pistols at ten paces on me there for a minute)

I'm glad we didn't get Sami anyway, he's not what we need.

CSF

I think It is more of a sign that United fans are too used to a successful United team that their attempts at patience with someone who isn't Ferguson have gone way over the top, and are unable to distinguish a bedding in period from a complete unacceptable mess of a season. 3 points above a Villa side who aren't even overperforming.

jonnyfingers

miralize wrote: »

Outsider looking in here, and to be honest I think most of you will consider this bullsh1t but on Moyes tactical decisions I think its obvious what he's done (wrong).

This may sound daft but I think Moyes bought into the idea of United having a poor midfield when arriving a bit too much. It was a common topic of discussion among the media and most united fans themselves. Yes you have perhaps one solid player there in Carrick but you also have a semi decent number of squad players who can play in midfield beside him. Moyes probably didnt/doesn't see it that way.

This is pure speculation on my part but I think Moyes sought to combat this in two ways. One was initially when starting out training the team in preseason, he placed an over emphasis on aggressive wing play from both the wingers and the wing backs, long cross-field diagonal balls from the central of defence, effectively to compensate for the poor midfield everyone had talked about.

Secondly he also looked to purchase in CM, but we all know how that went. Buying Fellaini was on paper a good idea, but I'll get to why I think Fellaini isnt working out in a second. His tactics were already being engrained in the players before he bought Fellaini, and I guess he thought it was working, with the wins agains swansea & wigan. By the time Fellaini came in, Moyes was set on crossing for being the primary source of goals. Fellaini does have an engine FFS, he can ball carry effectively.

But, you cant just ignore the centre of midfield, which is what United have done so far. I don't think Moyes has trust in the midfield to do any sort of job, and so he piles on the pressure onto the wingers and wing backs for chance creation. Evra has looked poor defensively, but it's as clear as day as to why. He's knackered. The overlapping wing play is good when you have players who can cross the ball. Valencia has had huge pressure on him to perform after a poor last season.

Fellaini is left wandering in midfield, no clear objectives, besides pass to the wingers. Same with anyone in the centre for you for that matter. Your strikers have no service because your wingers have no crossing ability, your wingers have no support in midfield for passing options, your midfield was neglected not just by not buying the right players, but also by not giving them something to do offensively, and so your full backs push up, and your centre backs are left isolated.

Its all just a bit archaic imo.

Moyes out. miralize in!

You're saying what a lot of us have been saying. Over emphasis on the wings and full back positions, with wingers that are poor! And that the team seems to be very tired.

Now I do wonder what would have happened if we had have signed Baines and Rafael didn't get injured. We would have had two very good attacking full backs and possibly Valencia wouldn't have played as much with more of an emphasis in midfield.

But I think you're right, the team lacks balance at the moment and the necessary players to provide that balance. I only hope Moyes can sort it out before it's too late.

Pro. F

Your Airbag wrote: »

Yes and you mentioned this is not good enough for you, I get it. Kedhira confirming the bid and it being reported that is 40m and neither player or either club involved denying any of this is better than anything to the contrary.

You also claimed this evidence was not enough, flimsy etc and I "failed". I said I was open to any substantial proof that said otherwise and "challenged" your claim to show me otherwise. I'll be right here on the edge of my seat waiting for you to "succeed" in your claim (you went all pistols at ten paces on me there for a minute)

I'm glad we didn't get Sami anyway, he's not what we need.

The evidence you are basing your claim on is flimsy. More fool you for believing it.

eyescreamcone

In season 2012/2013 Man U won the league. They won 16 games by a single goal. Van Persie was on fire for the early part of the season digging the team out of the sh!t on numerous occassions. Also, all the other contenders did not turn up.

This season ALL the other contenders are making a go of it. Van Persie is not as proficient/lucky as he was last year and the "grind 'em out victories" have turned into draws or 1-nil losses. For instance the penalty not given on saturday would have turned the game in United's favour.

It's small things that are making big differences. And of course the players have an easy out when things go wrong. It's not our fault (we're great) - it's the new manager's fault (he's crap)

LiamoSail

Agueroooo wrote: »

CL money is critical to UTD and how the service the debt payments (£70mil p.a) according to their year end results, so yes, if UTD fail to qualify for CL then that will be detrimental to the share price.

But I don't think for one second that will happen on a continous basis.
No matter who is managing UTD (during this current financial model) will get the bullet if a revenue stream like the CL is under risk.

Last seasons champions league participation was worth £30m to united. Their turnover for the year was £363m. While champions league is of course important, I wouldn't describe 10% of their revenue stream as being vital. Champions league or not, the brand will hold its value with sponsors, Liverpool being the example of this

DM_7

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

The question isn't whether Fabregas wanted to leave or not, the question is are Barca so cash strapped that they would sell a player who will probably be a sub more often than not in the next season or two to fund a move for the CB they so badly need.

I believe yes they would have, but that 25m offer for him was fcuking embarrassing.

Is it down to the Glazers? For the past few years I get the impression that we've been sitting at the table with Madrid/Barca/Bayern, and while the rest have been drinking expensive wine, we've been having Ribena and pretending it's wine. We're meant to be one of the biggest clubs in the world and yet seem so reluctant to spend money even when it's obvious to everyone that we badly need to spend.

If Ryanair did football clubs I'd imagine they'd handle the transfers similarly to us.

July 19th was the key to it. That was the day Tito left.

It changed everything as he had a new manager and a new opportunity at the club he wanted to play for. If Tito was still there Cesc might have actually pushed Barca in the direction of letting him go.

Also no way the board would dare sell a player like Cesc after hiring a new manager.

United messed up by not moving on quicker rather than the low bids.

Your Airbag

Pro. F wrote: »

The evidence you are basing your claim on is flimsy. More fool you for believing it.

Yeah just glaze over the part where you were asked to backup your claim but instead add foolish to failed as ways to describe someone who has done more of what your name calling for.

Liam O

eyescreamcone wrote: »

In season 2012/2013 Man U won the league. They won 16 games by a single goal. Van Persie was on fire for the early part of the season digging the team out of the sh!t on numerous occassions. Also, all the other contenders did not turn up.

This season ALL the other contenders are making a go of it. Van Persie is not as proficient/lucky as he was last year and the "grind 'em out victories" have turned into draws or 1-nil losses. For instance the penalty not given on saturday would have turned the game in United's favour.

It's small things that are making big differences. And of course the players have an easy out when things go wrong. It's not our fault (we're great) - it's the new manager's fault (he's crap)

I would agree somewhat with this other than the fact that bar Arsenal the other top teams haven't really stepped their games up too much and Arsenal were at a similar level for a lot of last season so it's not much of a surprise. City have hit some big scorelines but bar Aguero who's found his form they aren't setting the world alight week in, week out. Chelsea haven't been great either. The big difference is the improving personnel and tactics of the lower-mid table teams. A lot of them have 3 or 4 difference makers where before they'd be lucky to have 1 or 2.

Burt Macklin

DM-ICE wrote: »

July 19th was the key to it. That was the day Tito left.

It changed everything as he had a new manager and a new opportunity at the club he wanted to play for. If Tito was still there Cesc might have actually pushed Barca in the direction of letting him go.

Also no way the board would dare sell a player like Cesc after hiring a new manager.

United messed up by not moving on quicker rather than the low bids.

TBH I don't think he would have signed for us anyway. He never made any indication he wanted to leave, much less play for United, and he may have been wary that Ferguson had just retired. Besides, he was keen to prove that he could cut it at his dream club that he pushed so hard to join in the first place. The fact that he is a former Arsenal captain wouldn't help matters much either.

Pro. F

Your Airbag wrote: »

Yeah just glaze over the part where you were asked to backup your claim but instead add foolish to failed as ways to describe someone who has done more of what your name calling for.

What claim did I make?

Past30Now

Pro. F wrote: »

You're the one who made the claim, so it's you with the onus to prove it. Your proof is that it was widely reported.

Guys, you're killing me here. I read (lurk) this board every day with a view to hearing good honest opinions on my team, but every time I open it up recently, it's a bunch of the regulars, who normally offer good sane opinions, lighting up on this guy.

This was and will again be a great discussion board, once the regulars here get over (ignore if necessary) the contributions from Your Airbag. It's not as if he's a troll who just offers contrarian opinions. Most of his offerings are well thought out. He seems as obsessed by United as most of the rest of you.

Give him a break.

Your Airbag

Pro. F wrote: »

What claim did I make?

It was explained already and clear to see if you read back. You have no interest in this though but only having a go so for the good of the thread I'll not pain anyones eyes by indulging you further.

OwaynOTT

LiamoSail wrote: »

Last seasons champions league participation was worth £30m to united. Their turnover for the year was £363m. While champions league is of course important, I wouldn't describe 10% of their revenue stream as being vital. Champions league or not, the brand will hold its value with sponsors, Liverpool being the example of this

It a slippery slope losing out in it, as Liverpool can attest too but I would agree with you that one season out shouldn't have all that much of an impact in Untied. Two seasons out and it would be time to start worrying as it will start to become hard to attract the necessary talent.
I think it should be noted that Moyes' Everton were often slow to start so it could turn around soon and a few wins and poor results for the other clubs ahead and the table will change.
Having said that it makes a bloody change

Pro. F

Your Airbag wrote: »

It was explained already and clear to see if you read back. You have no interest in this though but only having a go so for the good of the thread I'll not pain anyones eyes by indulging you further.

I made no claim about how much the bid for Khedira was. So I have no need to prove anything.

RayCon

dobman88 wrote: »

I'm a United fan (for my sins it would seem)

Oh FFS ... "for your sins" - - - - you've enjoyed the majority of league wins in the past 20yrs ... and now you're having a rough 15 game period ... boo bleedin hoo. :rolleyes:

Pro. F

eyescreamcone wrote: »

In season 2012/2013 Man U won the league. They won 16 games by a single goal. Van Persie was on fire for the early part of the season digging the team out of the sh!t on numerous occassions. Also, all the other contenders did not turn up.

This season ALL the other contenders are making a go of it. Van Persie is not as proficient/lucky as he was last year and the "grind 'em out victories" have turned into draws or 1-nil losses. For instance the penalty not given on saturday would have turned the game in United's favour.

It's small things that are making big differences. And of course the players have an easy out when things go wrong. It's not our fault (we're great) - it's the new manager's fault (he's crap)

After 15 games this year:
Arsenal 35 pts
Liverpool 30 pts
Chelsea 30 pts
City 29 pts
(United 22 pts)

After 15 games last year (Link):
United 36 pts
City 33 pts
Chelsea 26 pts
Spurs 26 pts

So the second placed team had more points at this stage last year; third and fourth placed, fewer points. Overall not much of a difference as to the others turning up I would say.

I think RvP last year had scored more goals than Rooney by this time, but the team were playing better so that wasn't just down to good fortune for Fergie. I would say Moyes has been, at least, just as fortunate this year to have Rooney bailing us out so often.

Timmyctc

lol hav 2 admi itz funny

sea_monkey

Can we get a separate thread for Pro.F and Your_Airbag please?

mike65

If Utd should end up out of the CL places with players agitating to leave (though if they are Young, Nani, Welbeck etc it may be a good thing!) and top level names not willing to sign then it all gets a bit horrid and then share price will start to fall away.

Timmyctc

sea_monkey wrote: »

Can we get a separate thread for Pro.F and Your_Airbag please?

inb4theban