Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14 Mod warning post #718

magnumbud

scudzilla wrote: »

errrrrrr....................Moyes out????

no no ................... joyce out :P

Headshot wrote: »

I could fit in to utds midfield

youtube clips or get out

Mitch Connor

Bombleswizzum wrote: »

Full Story

24 years old, never played for Brazil. I've never seen him play so can't comment on his talents, but can't see how he could get a work permit. Wouldn't qualify automatically and can't see how we could get it on appeal either, he could hardly be argued as a special talent.

Mitch Connor

Headshot wrote: »

I could fit in to utds midfield

in an anderson shaped gap maybe....:p

The_Kew_Tour

1-1. 5 minutes left!

have to win to qualify!

J. Marston

Headshot wrote: »

I could fit in to utds midfield

Can you pass it backwards and hide behind opposition players when your teammates need someone to pass to? If so, you can take Cleverley's place.

Timmyctc

Pthetic diving from Shaktar player there. pathetic

Your Airbag

CSF wrote: »

Posts like this I really can't get behind. Moyes is 100% responsible for the performances of the players. That is his responsibility. We'll give him the credit when United's players do good things that win games, and the same has to apply for things that go wrong.

No no no. So many of our players have been responsible for so much. Evra for the late Cardiff equaliser. Welbeck missing an open goal against Everton. The late headed equaliser against Southampton. Rio doing an impression of a statue for West Broms winner.

Moyes is hardly instructing them to switch off for set pieces and to blow decent chances.

CSF

Timmyctc wrote: »

Posts like this I cant get behind. Whats he meant to do ffs? Go out and actually play the game for them? He can't make a player be good. (That being said I think Moyes has been faarrrrrrr below par so far)

Create enough chances over the course of the season and you'll get the results, alternatively there may be an issue with the finishing coaching. At this stage of the season, the league table rarely lies. I mean you'd swear every other team in the league didn't miss chances. Moyes is 100% responsible for the end product of the players performances (the result). If performances aren't acceptable, find an 11 that works, or a system that makes the current 11 work (although this should have happened long before now).

The_Kew_Tour

Finished 1-1.

United are out. Better side but not good enough.

Sign of the times:(

Blatter

wonderfullife wrote: »

Looks quality.

Not sure if it's been posted but both players had to name their Best-Of sides they played with in their era.

Keane named his 11 as:

Schmeichel
Parker
Pallister
Stam
Irwin
Beckham
Ince
Keane
Ronaldo
Cantona
Van Nistleroy


Left out Giggsy, Scholes and Neville.

In the case of Scholes he said it was solely down to the fact the producers said he had to include himself thus no space for Scholes.

Interestingly in the case of Giggs he had a pop saying "having a great career does not make you a great player".

Lots of controversy ahead.

Worrying that the assistant manager of Ireland can judge Ince to be a better player than Scholes. I mean it's not even ****ing close.

CSF

Your Airbag wrote: »

No no no. So many of our players have been responsible for so much. Evra for the late Cardiff equaliser. Welbeck missing an open goal against Everton. The late headed equaliser against Southampton. Rio doing an impression of a statue for West Broms winner.

Moyes is hardly instructing them to switch off for set pieces and to blow decent chances.

There isn't a failing team that you couldn't do this for. If you went through Fulham's season, you could pinpoint the individual errors that led to the results that led to the side being where they were. Should Jol have stayed as a result of those individual errors not being perpetrated directly by him?

titan18

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Finished 1-1.

United are out. Better side but not good enough.

Sign of the times:(

Really missed someone like Januzaj to provide that extra bit attacking, Wilson is a decent player, but other than Pereira, don't think the midfielders are that great.

Pro. F

CSF wrote: »

There isn't a failing team that you couldn't do this for. If you went through Fulham's season, you could pinpoint the individual errors that led to the results that led to the side being where they were. Should Jol have stayed as a result of those individual errors not being perpetrated directly by him?

Exactly.

It's the difference between not blaming the manager for particular individual mistakes by players and the buck stopping with the manager when the team are consistently under performing for a prolonged spell. We are deep into the territory of the latter now.

Not that I'd be calling for Moyes' head just yet. Unless Hiddink is interested I can't think of many good enough options out there at the moment.

Your Airbag

CSF wrote: »

There isn't a failing team that you couldn't do this for. If you went through Fulham's season, you could pinpoint the individual errors that led to the results that led to the side being where they were. Should Jol have stayed as a result of those individual errors not being perpetrated directly by him?

Yes you could find a relationship between a team failing and their players making individual point dropping errors.

CSF

Your Airbag wrote: »

Yes you could find a relationship between a team failing and their players making individual point dropping errors.

Obviously. No other manager seems to get a free pass on results because he can't physically control the actions of his players on the pitch though, why Moyes?

Moyes is 100% responsible for the accumulated product of his team's performance (the result).

Timmyctc

CSF wrote: »

Obviously. No other manager seems to get a free pass on results because he can't physically control the actions of his players on the pitch though, why Moyes?

Moyes is 100% responsible for the accumulated product of his team's performance (the result).

No manager is 100% Responsible. Like. Moyes couldn't have MADE Danny Welbeck Miss/not miss the open net? Or Rooney miscue his efforts. Or Made Tony V have **** concentration. I guarantee in Training Moyes et al teach the importance of staying alert. But that was Tony v's fault. The best manager in the world can't account for mistakes tbh. I don't rate the Everton loss as Moyes fault hugely. The Newcastle and Cardiff results I do. As with WBA and Liverpool.

Mitch Connor

There are some issues that Moyes shouldn;t be blamed for - against Everton we should have won for example.

However, Moyes does have to take the blame for the overall shocking performances we have seen so far and our inability to attack and create.

The Newcastle game, a prime example as a game Moyes takes the blame for. We created nothing and looked utterly abject for 90minutes. It wasn't a one off, it was systematic of our performances this season. We have, at no point, domestically at least, looked dangerous going forward.

We have a goal differnece of +3 in the league and have scored a total of 8 goals at home. That is Moyes' fault - the approach he is setting the team up with, the attitude we go out with - that is on him. And it isn't close to being good enough.

CSF

Timmyctc wrote: »

No manager is 100% Responsible. Like. Moyes couldn't have MADE Danny Welbeck Miss/not miss the open net? Or Rooney miscue his efforts. Or Made Tony V have **** concentration. I guarantee in Training Moyes et al teach the importance of staying alert. But that was Tony v's fault. The best manager in the world can't account for mistakes tbh. I don't rate the Everton loss as Moyes fault hugely. The Newcastle and Cardiff results I do. As with WBA and Liverpool.

Matches are played over the course of 90 minutes, you can't use one moment to define the whole game, even if some of those minutes are significant.

Moyes has 90 minutes (and all the training sessions before) to determine the result and all of them minutes are opportunities. Luck goes the way it goes. It doesn't even always even itself out, but league positions are not decided on luck, as every team has 3420 minutes to determine their fate, focusing on 1 or 2 of those minutes that didn't go your way is just excuse making, had United pushed on and got a second against Southampton or Cardiff the late goals would have been a mere consolation.

Your Airbag

CSF wrote: »

Moyes is 100% responsible for the accumulated product of his team's performance (the result).

I think your mixing responsible with held accountable by the press/fans etc

CSF

Your Airbag wrote: »

I think your mixing responsible with held accountable by the press/fans etc

No. Moyes is there to get results. He has to find the way to get the result even if Welbeck fluffs a shot or Rio makes an error at the back. That is his job, his entire objective, his responsibility. That is what he is paid to do.

We could be talking about how defensive errors led to Everton losing to Arsenal yesterday, but we're not.

Rayne Wooney

The next 4 league games are so incredibly important.

If we do badly top 4 will look completely out of reach.

On the other hand, if we do well it could kickstart our season with reinforcements coming in January.

Your Airbag

CSF wrote: »

No. Moyes is there to get results. He has to find the way to get the result even if Welbeck fluffs a shot or Rio makes an error at the back. That is his job, his entire objective, his responsibility. That is what he is paid to do.

We could be talking about how defensive errors led to Everton losing to Arsenal yesterday, but we're not.

What? If Evra doesn't switch off or Rooney fluff his pass to Welbeck we beat Cardiff. If Welbeck doesn't head an open goal off the bar or Val switch off and leave his man creep in we beat Everton. Its Moyes job to put out a team that can create and defend these incidents, its up to the players to take those chances. Moyes has to find another way after finding a way that the players blew? Nonsense.

Moyes has not been perfect but was it not for individual errors we could at a minimum have 6 points more right now.

Pen.Island

Everton Ribeiro looks good, but he's 24 and hasn't been near the Brazil squad I don't think. Left footed, good feet but the league he's in doesn't look high quality.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v94dHD-lXOA

Technique

I know he's not with us anymore, but there's never a wrong time to watch a bit of Berbs magic

https://vine.co/v/hQHp160WgFU

:cool:

CSF

Your Airbag wrote: »

What? If Evra doesn't switch off or Rooney fluff his pass to Welbeck we beat Cardiff. If Welbeck doesn't head an open goal off the bar or Val switch off and leave his man creep in we beat Everton. Its Moyes job to put out a team that can create and defend these incidents, its up to the players to take those chances. Moyes has to find another way after finding a way that the players blew? Nonsense.

Moyes has not been perfect but was it not for individual errors we could at a minimum have 6 points more right now.

The point is that those 1 or 2 incidents don't actually define the game. They do because United made nothing else happen, but if United created more chances, and didn't concede the earlier goal, they probably win the game too. Those incidents you're referring to are only 1 or 2 of a multitude of incidents through the game. Man City and Liverpool have been making regular defensive errors lately, for the most part they haven't been very costly though...

Oregano_State

Pen.Island wrote: »

Everton Ribeiro looks good, but he's 24 and hasn't been near the Brazil squad I don't think. Left footed, good feet but the league he's in doesn't look high quality.

He's in the Brasilian 1st division.

Hitchens

David Moyes says defeat to Newcastle United at Old Trafford 'raised my spirits'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/manchester-united/10506100/Manchester-United-manager-David-Moyes-says-defeat-to-Newcastle-United-at-Old-Trafford-raised-my-spirits.htmlgo

go away David, .......just .......go

homerjay2005

Headshot wrote: »

I could fit in to utds midfield

considering you are about 6ft 10,id say youd brush Cleverly and Fletcher aside with your baby finger.

DM_7

How can we judge a player without actually watching him play? Not playing for Brazil is hardly something to hold against a player either.

Mitch Connor

CSF wrote: »

The point is that those 1 or 2 incidents don't actually define the game. They do because United made nothing else happen, but if United created more chances, and didn't concede the earlier goal, they probably win the game too. Those incidents you're referring to are only 1 or 2 of a multitude of incidents through the game. Man City and Liverpool have been making regular defensive errors lately, for the most part they haven't been very costly though...

plus - even without the defensive or offensive errors which have cost us points, the performances have still be absolutely rubbish.

The performances are what worries me - the performances and the set up of the side that puts in those performance are the problem.

If United generally deserved better than we have got, and were genuinely unlucky - I could forgive the performances as at least there would be encouraging signs from the team itself. As it is, the team is regressing under moyes imo.

CSF

Hitchens wrote: »

David Moyes says defeat to Newcastle United at Old Trafford 'raised my spirits'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/manchester-united/10506100/Manchester-United-manager-David-Moyes-says-defeat-to-Newcastle-United-at-Old-Trafford-raised-my-spirits.htmlgo

go away David, .......just .......go

I don't mean to sound overly bad here, but the man has always come across a bit simple whenever I hear him speak. Doesn't carry himself well in interviews at all.

Mitch Connor

Hitchens wrote: »

David Moyes says defeat to Newcastle United at Old Trafford 'raised my spirits'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/manchester-united/10506100/Manchester-United-manager-David-Moyes-says-defeat-to-Newcastle-United-at-Old-Trafford-raised-my-spirits.htmlgo

go away David, .......just .......go

I've got to think he used the wrong phrase here - and ment it has raised his determination or something like that.

He can't possibly have actually meant what he said. I refuse to believe it, so I'm not going to bash him over it.

Headshot

homerjay2005 wrote: »

considering you are about 6ft 10,id say youd brush Cleverly and Fletcher aside with your baby finger.

lol im not that tall :P

Its a good guess but its no carling

Pen.Island

Technique wrote: »

I know he's not with us anymore, but there's never a wrong time to watch a bit of Berbs magic

https://vine.co/v/hQHp160WgFU

:cool:

Am I the only one who thought it was pretty average? Under no pressure either.

Didn't show the part where he gave it away either..

The_Kew_Tour

6ft 10ins?

jeez thats good going

Pen.Island

DM-ICE wrote: »

How can we judge a player without actually watching him play? Not playing for Brazil is hardly something to hold against a player either.

People only come out with the "You can't judge him without watching him" whenever you say something bad about a player.

I'm merely saying that if he was as good as we need, than surely he'd have been capped.

n32

CSF wrote: »

I don't mean to sound overly bad here, but the man has always come across a bit simple whenever I hear him speak. Doesn't carry himself well in interviews at all.

He has come across so badly in interviews since he got the job its unreal. When he was Everton I used to think he was like another version of Ferguson; tough , uncompromising, didnt suffer fools etc but he has had a serious bout of foot in mouth since he came to united. What he said on saturday about worrying about what people would say if he took off RVP like he had planned after 60 mins was ridiculous. He shouldnt give a **** what anyone says about him. I feel sorry for him because aside from his mistakes the players have made some clangers this season that have gone somewhat unnoticed.

homerjay2005

n32 wrote: »

He has come across so badly in interviews since he got the job its unreal. When he was Everton I used to think he was like another version of Ferguson; tough , uncompromising, didnt suffer fools etc but he has had a serious bout of foot in mouth since he came to united. What he said on saturday about worrying about what people would say if he took off RVP like he had planned after 60 mins was ridiculous. He shouldnt give a **** what anyone says about him. I feel sorry for him because aside from his mistakes the players have made some clangers this season that have gone somewhat unnoticed.

you heading over tomorrow night?

is anybody for that matter?seems to be very few, if nobody heading to it, but im expecting it to be a top class atmosphere. hopefully this is the game that kick starts our season, though i think ive asked for that about 5 times already this year

Your Airbag

CSF wrote: »

The point is that those 1 or 2 incidents don't actually define the game. They do because United made nothing else happen, but if United created more chances, and didn't concede the earlier goal, they probably win the game too. Those incidents you're referring to are only 1 or 2 of a multitude of incidents through the game. Man City and Liverpool have been making regular defensive errors lately, for the most part they haven't been very costly though...

Of course if we had created more we would have won, but had the players not made their errors and enough to win had already been done. It was a late equaliser that cost us a goal and a simple lay off in extra time done wrong costing us the lead., thats the definition of game defining.

Pen.Island

n32 wrote: »

He has come across so badly in interviews since he got the job its unreal. When he was Everton I used to think he was like another version of Ferguson; tough , uncompromising, didnt suffer fools etc but he has had a serious bout of foot in mouth since he came to united. What he said on saturday about worrying about what people would say if he took off RVP like he had planned after 60 mins was ridiculous. He shouldnt give a **** what anyone says about him. I feel sorry for him because aside from his mistakes the players have made some clangers this season that have gone somewhat unnoticed.

I think he phrased it badly. I think he couldn't take RVP off when they needed a goal, and he was right in what he said anyways. Fans would be saying what's he at!

n32

homerjay2005 wrote: »

you heading over tomorrow night?

is anybody for that matter?seems to be very few, if nobody heading to it, but im expecting it to be a top class atmosphere. hopefully this is the game that kick starts our season, though i think ive asked for that about 5 times already this year

staying at home tomorrow night.

homerjay2005

apologies if already brought up, but that supposed wonderkid Bruno Gomes who was supposedly all set to join us, has now chosen another club in stead of us...

strange one.

Mitch Connor

Pen.Island wrote: »

I think he phrased it badly. I think he couldn't take RVP off when they needed a goal, and he was right in what he said anyways. Fans would be saying what's he at!

agree - again I think/hope he didn't mean exactly what hesaid. I think his comment about what people would have thought was an attempt at a joke. The plan was likely to take him off after 70 or so, but as things were we just couldn't afford to.

SantryRed

Your Airbag wrote: »

Of course if we had created more we would have won, but had the players not made their errors and enough to win had already been done. It was a late equaliser that cost us a goal and a simple lay off in extra time done wrong costing us the lead., thats the definition of game defining.

Your post right there is what is wrong with United this season, and what seems to be their mentality under Moyes to date.

Playing away to Cardiff, it shouldn't come down to one mistake defining winning or losing the game.
Playing at home to Newcastle, it shouldn't come down to one miss meaning you don't go 1-0 up and go on to lose 1-0.
Playing at home to WBA, again it shouldn't be one mistake, United should be coasting against them like teams have, such as Liverpool when they put them to the sword.


The mentality in Moyes is all wrong for being a top 4 manager and he will not last as United's manager if he doesn't change it. If United are 1-0 up against anyone with 20 mins to go, he doesn't look to kill the game off with another goal, he looks to solidify and hold on, this tactic has already bitten United on the arse several times this season, and will continue to do so until he fixes it. At United, you do not give the initiative to teams poorer than you, and that is what he does when he tries to sit on 1 goal leads.

kryogen

Oregano_State wrote: »

He's in the Brasilian 1st division.

Which is a fairly poor league

kryogen

homerjay2005 wrote: »

apologies if already brought up, but that supposed wonderkid Bruno Gomes who was supposedly all set to join us, has now chosen another club in stead of us...

strange one.

Has he?

Thought that deal was done and dusted, shame to lose him, looks like a real prospect

Regarding Ribeiro, from my watching of him I am unsure why we would be that interested, he is decent, left footed, but he would be another player to pad the squad imho rather then take us to the next level in terms of a first team player.

I cant remember much about him that stood out anyway, maybe he is developing later as I haven't got to watch much SA football the last few months but he wasn't anything special when I did watch him.

Not out of the realms of possibility he would be having a break out season at 24 either I suppose, Ill tune in again soon and keep an eye for him

CSF

Your Airbag wrote: »

Of course if we had created more we would have won, but had the players not made their errors and enough to win had already been done. It was a late equaliser that cost us a goal and a simple lay off in extra time done wrong costing us the lead., thats the definition of game defining.

I agree completely, had United not made the error late in the game, they would have won the game, but that is an overly simplified summary of football and only tells a small part of the story. Hundreds of things happen throughout a game where if someone does something differently the outcome shifts. Which is why I keep coming back to the fact that it is the sum of the performance that defines the result.

If Moyes gets enough of the performance right, United win games, not every game, you have to allow for luck to an extent, but in the end throughout the season you always make your own.

Pen.Island

I just wish we'd stop crossing it in so much. I don't know if I have perceived it wrong but Evra seems to be the worst for it. Surely if that's a tactic then Rafa/Smalling would be putting in similar amounts of crosses and Nani has barely crossed it in whenever he has been on the left either.

Valencia is at it a lot but hard to know if it's a tactic as he has no other choice because he can't go past a man or cut inside. We just badly need someone with pace who can go past a man with a quick change of speed or touch.

Januzaj can do it but can't be expected to be the main man.

Your Airbag

SantryRed wrote: »

Your post right there is what is wrong with United this season, and what seems to be their mentality under Moyes to date.

Playing away to Cardiff, it shouldn't come down to one mistake defining winning or losing the game.
P

CSF wrote: »

I agree completely, had United not made the error late in the game, they would have won the game, but that is an overly simplified summary of football and only tells a small part of the story. Hundreds of things happen throughout a game where if someone does something differently the outcome shifts. Which is why I keep coming back to the fact that it is the sum of the performance that defines the result.

If Moyes gets enough of the performance right, United win games, not every game, you have to allow for luck to an extent, but in the end throughout the season you always make your own.

I agree that Moyes was negative in that match and our preformances under him lack luster but one more than one occasion we have dropped points based on games where it was more than one incident involving our players that cost us.

Your right about those incidents only telling a small story of the overall game, absolutley right but in both games other incidents worked against us. Welbeck blew a chance against Cardiff, Smalling should have run the Cardiff player into the corner rather than foul him that led to the free kick. Against Everton Rooney hit the post, scuffed another couple of chances and Giggs had a header creep wide. There was enough done to win both.

I'm not happy with how we play under Moyes either but some of the players have let us, him and themselves down. They are not blameless.

Moyes insisting on us being so wide when we are so poor there is a big issue but we have no creativity in the centre so what option does he have. Januzaj and Nani were playing against Everton so we had different wide options and we were very unlucky not to score. The Everton game was lost by the forwards and Val imo.

KH25

Your Airbag wrote: »

Doesn't he operate higher up the field in the Rooney/Kagawa zone? Can't see us going for him if that is the case.

I could be wrong but I thought he was more of a left sided player.

bucketybuck wrote: »

Yep, you have to admire a manager who goes to a new club and immediately makes a few signings to improve an area of the team that needed some work...:pac:

I have no idea how what you quoted there came up as something I said.