Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14 Mod warning post #718

homerjay2005

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

Amazing how 2 people can see the same thing completely differently.

eh, what do you mean?

bullvine

bucketybuck wrote: »

Oh come off it, Ince was twice the player Nicky Butt was.

Its no great shame to not be on the level of Keane or Bryan Robson, but you have to give credit where it is due and Paul Ince was a far more accomplished player than Butt ever was. As I said he was a massive influence on the field for United and then went to Inter Milan at a time when Serie A was the top league in the world and acquitted himself very well.

I know in your mind a player retroactively loses a million brownie points if they ever sign for a rival after leaving United, but there is nothing strange about remembering how good Paul Ince was.

Eta: PFA team of the year 1993, '94 and '95. Not bad!

Ince was World Class in his prime!

bucketybuck

Danye wrote: »

Aren't we the same group of fans who have been calling for Paul Scholes to be acknowledged as the best British central midfield player of his generation and now because our old disgruntled captain doesn't include him in his all time XI we're saying Ince was better. Is Paul Ince now better than Scholes was? :rolleyes:

Who on earth are you responding to here? Not a single person has said that Ince was better than Scholes, are you hearing voices or something?

jambofc

Sacramento wrote: »

Less coffee for you!!

on what grounds may i ask

tallaghtmick wrote: »

Because we need to see what he does in January and the latter half of the season, I never wanted him but he needs a year at the very least, no champs league football he better get the boot but if he gets us in ill give him one more year, I pray we win the F.A cup for morale etc.

im not getting the wait and see part of all this,sometimes people/companys make mistakes imo this is one of them,i can see ABSOLUTELY nothing to suggest he is the man to lead us forward,everything about him is negative.

tallaghtmick

jambofc wrote: »

on what grounds may i ask





im not getting the wait and see part of all this,sometimes people/companys make mistakes imo this is one of them,i can see ABSOLUTELY nothing to suggest he is the man to lead us forward,everything about him is negative.

If he was gone tomorrow I'd be delighted but it wont happen, he will get 1 or 2 years nothing we can do but sit back cry and listen to his supporters scream "transitional period" from the rooftops.

Timmyctc

Hugely hypothetical scenario. But say our league form continued and we finished 8th or 9th. And our CL form continued and we won the CL. Would you be happy with Moyes 1st year?

homerjay2005

tallaghtmick wrote: »

If he was gone tomorrow I'd be delighted but it wont happen, he will get 1 or 2 years nothing we can do but sit back cry and listen to his supporters scream "transitional period" from the rooftops.

even Moyes is talking about a transitional period himself which is so frustrating.

United have known for years ferguson was going and they f8cked up the biggest appointment in the clubs history.

do you think Jose Mourinho would be talking about a transition right now? would he f*ck, he would be talking about winning the league and champions league and being the best club in the world. the man doesnt know the meaning of the word transition.

bullvine

bucketybuck wrote: »

Who on earth are you responding to here? Not a single person has said that Ince was better than Scholes, are you hearing voices or something?

Did Keane actually say Ince was better than Scholes? Maybe he just preferred him as player, I'm sure a lot would pick Rooney over Ronaldo as well if they had to, doesn't mean that hes better than him, if you get what I mean!

ericzeking

The team Keane picked has the look of a better and a more balanced team than if you put Scholes in for Ince but that does not mean Paul Ince was a better player than Paul Scholes or that that's what Roy Keane thinks.

It's really not that difficult.

It doesn't surprise me in the slightest that Roy picked a team rather than picking the best individuals.

Time and again you see ex pros name their best X1 they played with and you just know that team would get battered because they have 6 or 7 attacking players... you can say it's all a bit of fun, but that's not our Roy is it?
He's in it to win!!!

Mitch Connor

homerjay2005 wrote: »

even Moyes is talking about a transitional period himself which is so frustrating.

United have known for years ferguson was going and they f8cked up the biggest appointment in the clubs history.

do you think Jose Mourinho would be talking about a transition right now? would he f*ck, he would be talking about winning the league and champions league and being the best club in the world. the man doesnt know the meaning of the word transition.

I'd have no problem with Moyes talking about us being in transition, if there were some signs on the pitch that we were transitioning to something.

What new style of football are we transitioning to?
What new players are we transitioning to?
What new philosophy are we transitioning to?

I don't see anything.

The only differences between last year and this year is that we are playing far more long balls and playing a whole lot worse.

IvySlayer

Timmyctc wrote: »

Hugely hypothetical scenario. But say our league form continued and we finished 8th or 9th. And our CL form continued and we won the CL. Would you be happy with Moyes 1st year?

We'd qualify for the Champions League automatically then wouldn't we? CL qualification is the bear minimum so yeah he'd deserve another year. Would be an amazing achievement considering the quality of Barcelona, Madrid, Bayern, Dortmund, Juventus

Mitch Connor

ericzeking wrote: »

The team Keane picked has the look of a better and a more balanced team than if you put Scholes in for Ince but that does not mean Paul Ince was a better player than Paul Scholes or that that's what Roy Keane thinks.

It's really not that difficult.

It doesn't surprise me in the slightest that Roy picked a team rather than picking the best individuals.

Time and again you see ex pros name their best X1 they played with and you just know that team would get battered because they have 6 or 7 attacking players... you can say it's all a bit of fun, but that's not our Roy is it?
He's in it to win!!!

Seemingly Roy wanted Scholes and Ince in his midfield, but the producers told him he had to include himself.

ericzeking

Mitch Connor wrote: »

I'd have no problem with Moyes talking about us being in transition, if there were some signs on the pitch that we were transitioning to something.

What new style of football are we transitioning to?
What new players are we transitioning to?
What new philosophy are we transitioning to?

I don't see anything.

The only differences between last year and this year is that we are playing far more long balls and playing a whole lot worse.

I don't know the stats (maybe someone who's on the pulse with such things could pull them out) but off the top of my head, it seems like we are having more possession this season than last, now we are doing nothing with it but it feels like we are keeping the ball better, it's just all very lateral with our typically 2 sitting midfielders and involving the centre halves too much. The, perhaps, increased long passes come then from the distance between the wingers/attackers and our deep lying midfield.
We need to push up the defence, push up the CM and get a midfielder turning with the ball and carrying and passing forward. Between here and January.... Giggs has done this but needs Jones legs alongside, Anderson looked like he could offer us something last Saturday, Rooney could do it but would be unhappy deployed at CM.

I could be completely wrong here but that's just the way it feels watching the games.

ArmaniJeanss

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Seemingly Roy wanted Scholes and Ince in his midfield, but the producers told him he had to include himself.

Disappointing really that he didn't tell them to fcuk off and that if he wanted to drop himself to the bench no ponytailed tv executive ponce with a degree in arts and journalism was going to tell him otherwise.

ericzeking

Following on from this discussion... in our current plight....you can have one of these players from the past in their prime...Scholes, Keane, Ince?

Pick one (Eddie Jordan voice!)

Scholes is the best player but it's a Keane character that would get us going and drag this current bunch along....

Keane for me

bullvine

ericzeking wrote: »

Following on from this discussion... in our current plight....you can have one of these players from the past in their prime...Scholes, Keane, Ince?

Pick one (Eddie Jordan voice!)

Scholes is the best player but it's a Keane character that would get us going and drag this current bunch along....

Keane for me

From 1996 to 2003, Roy Keane was the best most important footballer in the premiership, from 99 till 01, hes was arguably the best player on the planet but never got the true recognition he deserved.

I have a match of the day magazine from 1997 before the injury were they voted who the top 100 players in the league were at the time and Keane was number 1 in it, I must dig it out for Nostalgic reasons.

IamtheWalrus

Headshot wrote: »

I could fit in to utds midfield

Oooooooh matron!

tallaghtmick

Timmyctc wrote: »

Hugely hypothetical scenario. But say our league form continued and we finished 8th or 9th. And our CL form continued and we won the CL. Would you be happy with Moyes 1st year?

Stop reading my mind Timmy!! It would be a weird one but I would def want him to stay, obviously just to see could he replicate that in the prem.

IamtheWalrus

homerjay2005 wrote: »

eh, what do you mean?

I cringed when watching those two celebrate.

Best I could find

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGYBiTdaXgk

Dont be at yourself

From Simon Kuper, Dutch-based journalist:

Odd that Man U still seem interested in Wesley Sneijder, who is physically past it and has relationship of mutual loathing with Van Persie

Didn't know about any animosity between the two...

magnumbud

Timmyctc wrote: »

Hugely hypothetical scenario. But say our league form continued and we finished 8th or 9th. And our CL form continued and we won the CL. Would you be happy with Moyes 1st year?

surely you couldn't sack a manager that delivered a CL that season........ unless your roman . it would require a lot of luck and the team would have to improve a great deal but with rooney and RVP both in form its not impossible to think if the other 8 outfield players sat in our own half and stopped the likes of bayern or barca playing. its the CL after all. like if you put the chelsea or liverpool team that won the CL on paper you wouldnt give them a chance of it.

i was actually thinking this and would say yeah give him another season then and the summer would require a near complete rebuild of midfield(which should start in january) and im not just talking CM i mean wingers included. would say there is very few midfielders that could consider themselves safe from being sold on current form.

tbh i think moyes needs to be brutal with some of the lads. take welbeck for an example simply put his goal scoring tally for a striker is pathetic and should try to light a fire under him by saying start scoring more or your out. if he reacts badly to that he doesnt have the drive to be a top class striker. similar should and could be done with nani, young, anderson(both days could be numbered already) and valencia.

Headshot

We have more of a chance signing Messi, Ronaldo and going back in time to get Pele and Maradona than winning the CL

master-t

I would revamp the entire midfield alright.

Midfielders:

Carrick - The only 1 who I would consider safe and still able to operate at the top level
Januzaj - Been our shining light so far this season as a lot of us predicted having seen him play. Delighted he signed a new deal, but now to find out how to utilize him the best.
Anderson - His time is up
Cleverly - A squad player, but not good enough to start regular PL or CL matches
Kagawa - Clearly can't play LW for United, wants to operate in the 10, but Rooney has it sewn up. Needs to become adaptable or Moyes needs to rotate Rooney to the LW and Kags into the 10 role throughout matches.
Nani - 5 year deal? I can only assume it was so he doesn't leave on a free. A squad player at best. Nowhere near good enough to be a regular starter.
Valencia - Can't beat a man, can't cross the ball with any consistency and doesn't score enough goals. We all remember when he was great, and that clouds people' judgements of Valencia today. Wouldn't be mised.
Young - It think we all agree he can leave at any time
Fellaini - Needs to be given time. He on his own can't shore up our midfield issues, yet he is taking the blame. A creative Mid beside him, will allow him to play better I feel.
Giggs - He will retire at the end of this season - Surely?
Fletcher - What's the point.
Zaha - Needs game time
Bebe - Remember him? It's a travesty and a farce that this player is still officially on the books at Man Utd. The smell of corruption off this joke of a purchase still stings the eyes.


So basically, I think Carrick, Januzaj, Fellaini and Zaha are the only midfielders who I wouldn't replace right now. The rest, are certainly replaceable. There are not that many teams that pose such a problem in vast amounts of dead wood.


People can say player X is a squad player, which I would agree with to a degree, but replaceable? They most definitely are.

TheDoc

Dont be at yourself wrote: »

From Simon Kuper, Dutch-based journalist:



Didn't know about any animosity between the two...

I have to say I havn't been foaming at the mouth over Sneijder. I think his previous snub was enough to indicate he was more interested in the payday then bringing the club success.

I think both the money and wage packet could be best spent elsewhere. Would be a bit of a short term solution which I wouldn't be in total objection off, I just think there is better out that, that can probably offer more longterm.

master-t

Also, I would seriously consider recalling Nick Powell from Wigan if we arent going to sign midfielders in January. I would offer us something that we lack in the middle.

larchielads

Headshot wrote: »

We have more of a chance signing Messi, Ronaldo and going back in time to get Pele and Maradona than winning the CL

sorry just had to.....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMRrNY0pxfM

paulbok

Dont be at yourself wrote: »

From Simon Kuper, Dutch-based journalist:



Didn't know about any animosity between the two...

2 Dutch players that don't get along? Well I never.:D

newballsplease

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Seemingly Roy wanted Scholes and Ince in his midfield, but the producers told him he had to include himself.

I cant get my head around this point. So you include Scholes instead of Ince....
A complete No brainer.

Burt Macklin

I don't think Sneijder would be the answer anyway. Aside from his age (29), and possible problems with van Persie, his best position is as a number 10, and as another poster pointed out we're already rotating Rooney and Kags in that role. Ideally we need someone who can really dominate in the middle of the park, protect the defence and manage to actually pass the ball forward (which Cleverley seems incapable of). Finding someone like that is bound to be tricky, especially in January, and will probably be very expensive too.

Mitch Connor

newballsplease wrote: »

I cant get my head around this point. So you include Scholes instead of Ince....
A complete No brainer.

Keane and Ince were a great partnership, maybe Keane rates that partnership higher.

Pudsy33

I keep hearing from pundits that we need to sign a "creative midfielder". Surely that's one position that doesnt need investment? I'd much rather someone who would slot in beside Carrick.

bucketybuck

It is kind of amusing though. I mean, I rate Scholes ahead of Ince too, but if the guy who actually played with the both of them wants to pick Ince in his best XI then more power to him.

Vic Vinegar

Pudsy33 wrote: »

I keep hearing from pundits that we need to sign a "creative midfielder". Surely that's one position that doesnt need investment? I'd much rather someone who would slot in beside Carrick.

We have no creativity whatsoever from midfield, so yeah, we do need to invest in that, urgently.

jonnyfingers

Re: Keane and his supposed best United XI he's played with. Please remember that he is most likely just trying to get back at Ferguson for what he says about Keane in his book. Don't assume it's what Keane actually believes to be the best United XI he has played with, he even mentions selecting the players because they challenged Ferguson in some way.

In the interview he's also asked who's the best manager he's ever played for and he answers "Brian Clough" straight away without so much of a mention of Ferguson. He also says that Ferguson's biggest flaw is loyalty. So still not love lost between them.

And for what its worth I think with Cantona, Van Nistelrooy and Ronaldo in the team I think Ince, Keane and Beckham would be a fantastic midfield. Remember that for a long time Scholes was an attacking midfielder so might not balance that particular midfield as good as Ince. He'd be some sub to have though! I remember when Ince was sold to Inter I thought that was the end of it for United. Really liked him as a player.

Mitch Connor

Bombleswizzum wrote: »

We have no creativity whatsoever from midfield, so yeah, we do need to invest in that, urgently.

without a change of tactics/formation it would be very difficult to get on.

If we continue to play 442, then the 2 central midfielders need to be able to stick the foot in and do the defensive work, covering for the strikers/wingers/full backs. I can't think of many creative players that can play that central role in a 442. Best you will be get are box to box players or deep lying players like Carrick.

DM_7

I can see Moyes using three in midfield more often in the future. Already used it in Europe. But couldn't do it regularly as not enough options exist with injuries at different times.

Fellaini and Cleverley were injured around the time of that Donetsk game. Since then Carrick was also injured. Slim pickings in that area of the field means you couldn't play three in there and not overplay people.

keane2097

Keane always spoke of Brian Clough as though he was more impressed by him than Ferguson even when things were good between the two of them in my memory.

I certainly remember being taken aback by the fact that he seemed to think Clough was the better manager of the two when I read the book Dunphy ghosted.

Shane St.

Is it goal difference or head to head that decides top spot in the group? If it's goal difference then surely we're assured top spot already?

kryogen

Shane St. wrote: »

Is it goal difference or head to head that decides top spot in the group? If it's goal difference then surely we're assured top spot already?

Head to head Im fairly sure

MD1990

Pudsy33 wrote: »

I keep hearing from pundits that we need to sign a "creative midfielder". Surely that's one position that doesnt need investment? I'd much rather someone who would slot in beside Carrick.

do u actually watch the games
considering Man U are creating nothing from open play i think they need a creative midfielder lol

Mitch Connor

Shane St. wrote: »

Is it goal difference or head to head that decides top spot in the group? If it's goal difference then surely we're assured top spot already?

Head to head.

Mitch Connor

MD1990 wrote: »

do u actually watch the games
considering Man U are creating nothing from open play i think they need a creative midfielder lol

But if you play your typical creative midfielder in a central 2, with 2 wingers and two strikers you are going to be horribly open defensively.

Vic Vinegar

Mitch Connor wrote: »

But if you play your typical creative midfielder in a central 2, with 2 wingers and two strikers you are going to be horribly open defensively.

Creative can also be sound defensively... they are not anathema.

Mitch Connor

Bombleswizzum wrote: »

Creative can also be sound defensively... they are not anathema.

If they are, they are very hard to come by.

Very few creative players are all that comfortable in a central 2.

They do exist, but they are generally long range passers and deep lying players like Carrick, Scholes, Xavi and Pirlo. not many around these days.

Lucas Hood

Shane St. wrote: »

Is it goal difference or head to head that decides top spot in the group? If it's goal difference then surely we're assured top spot already?

Head to Head . Shaktar need to beat us to go top the group. We just need a point to top the group.

Mitch Connor

United are 14 points, 15 goals, 1,522 passes, 38 shots & 6% average possession worse off than after 15 games last season.

Well in Moyes, you managerial genius.

Deise_2012

Mitch Connor wrote: »

United are 14 points, 15 goals, 1,522 passes, 38 shots & 6% average possession worse off than after 15 games last season.

Well in Moyes, you managerial genius.

Ah cmon that's very harsh. I think Moyes has been very unlucky, Fellaini is not playing as well as he can, he needs to be given time just like Moyes, but with Carrick out injured people are complaining because our 27.5m signing is not showing his ability as a player. Van persie's form is very different to last year because of injuries another thing Moyes cannot do anything about. The last minute goals at Southampton, Cardiff. The chances we missed v Everton last wednesday before Oviedo scored. Ferguson was smart leaving at the end of last season, he knew it would take another 2/3 years to build a championship winning side, City and Chelsea were never going to be as bad as last year when United walked to the title with a very average side. That was never going to happen this season with Mourinho returning and Pellegrini getting the best of Aguero.
Give Moyes another year, where he can get rid of Anderson, Young, Evra and sign the player he thinks will benefit the side. People have to realise in January he won't be able to sign Baines/Barkley/Reus/Gundogen, there's no way Everton or Dortmund will sell in the middle of the season

Shane St.

What are we thinking the line up will be tonight? I was thinking maybe Moyes might rest a few but with the back to back league defeats I really feel Moyes needs a win here 2night

Cantona's Collars

Match thread http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=87935732#post87935732

I didn't do the last one 'cos a few said I was jinxing the team,that put that argument to rest.

RasTa

zerks wrote: »

Match thread http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=87935732#post87935732

I didn't do the last one 'cos a few said I was jinxing the team,that put that argument to rest.

The stats don't lie! You've started every match thread bar Newcastle I think, although I wonder why it's always the same person