Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14 Mod warning post #718

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Corvo wrote: »

I can't believe some people have this attitude, honestly.

Fair play to both of them today,but they are not United players..doubt the top european clubs are keeping tabs on Danny and Tom.

sky88

Januajz really needs to bulk up very much like ronaldo in his first season gets pushed off the ball a lot

Corvo

Layla Kind Ship wrote: »

Fair play to both of them today,but they are not United players..doubt the top european clubs are keeping tabs on Danny and Tom.

They are both more United players than Van Persie etc. will ever be.

No top clubs kept tabs on Wes Brown either but his performance at CB that night in the Champions League semi final certainly had Barcelona frustrated.

Good players, good attitude, hard workers and key elements of a squad that actually retains a character unlike the Chelsea's and Manchester City's of this world.

Welbeck turns up today when called upon and pops in two good goals. Clev has certainly found it tough, but he always struck me as a player that would thrive with two midfielders beside him. Any player that age and size would find it tough to do a physical job in there.

PhlegmyMoses

Corvo wrote: »

They are both more United players than Van Persie etc. will ever be.

No top clubs kept tabs on Wes Brown either but his performance at CB that night in the Champions League semi final certainly had Barcelona frustrated.

Good players, good attitude, hard workers and key elements of a squad that actually retains a character unlike the Chelsea's and Manchester City's of this world.

Welbeck turns up today when called upon and pops in two good goals. Clev has certainly found it tough, but he always struck me as a player that would thrive with two midfielders beside him. Any player that age and size would find it tough to do a physical job in there.

Brown played RB in that semi, no?

Corvo

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Brown played RB in that semi, no?

No I'm sure Nemanja was out. Could be wrong!

MANUTD99

sky88 wrote: »

Januajz really needs to bulk up very much like ronaldo in his first season gets pushed off the ball a lot

He's 18

Headshot

MANUTD99 wrote: »

He's 18

Dont like the rolling stones

MagicIRL

Suarez scares me. So talented.

ElChe32

MagicIRL wrote: »

Suarez scares me. So talented.

I'd be more scared of his teeth. He'll be off in the summer anyway to Madrid.

Vic Vinegar

MagicIRL wrote: »

Suarez scares me. So talented.

Scares me too with them chompers.

Pro. F

MANUTD99 wrote: »

So do you think Cleverely and Welbeck deserve to start the big games for Man United . Do you honestly think these 2 players will push us over the line when we need it most?

Why are you changing the subject all of a sudden? The question of whether they deserve to start in big games is completely different from the question of whether they deserve to be at the club. You could at least acknowledge my response to you before changing the conversation to something else.

To answer your question here, the way they have performed overall this season neither of them are good enough for United in the big games just now. The same is true of Vidic, Evans, Smalling, Jones, Rio, Evra, Carrick, Fellaini, Giggs, Nani, Valencia, Young, RvP, Kagawa and Hernandez.

The problem has not been that all these players are not good enough, but rather that Moyes' management skills have not been good enough. He may yet turn it around, he may not.

If the manager had the team playing well and Cleverley was given the opportunity of regular starts beside a suitable CM partner then I think he would have a decent chance of pushing on to being good enough for first choice at United long term. Welbeck I have less faith in, because I think he was given a very good opportunity for the 11/12 season and he maybe failed to score enough.

Plenty will disagree with my assessment of Cleverley, I wouldn't criticise anybody just now for thinking he'll only ever be good enough for back up at the club. But people calling for the pair of them to be sold I've got no time for.

Jimmy Iovine

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Brown played RB in that semi, no?

Absolutely not. The best defensive display I've seen from a player in a United shirt. He was on a different level.

Pro. F

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Brown played RB in that semi, no?

CB beside Rio in both legs. He was imperious in the home (second) leg from what I remember.

Rayne Wooney

Liverpool humiliating Spurs

Your Airbag

Oh boy, we needed that.

Moyes comments about having a clear out seemed to work on Welbeck, Clev and Valencia.

Val was good today, Welbeck was good too and Clev did his usual work load but weighed in with a goal. Its was nice to see.

Having Fletch back is great, he got stuck in immediately and looked like he has never been away. Hopefully he is going to be a first team regular for the rest of the season.

Fletcher: "Today was my re-debut, something I've waited for. I replaced my 1st idol (Becks) back then, I replaced my other idol (Giggs) now"

https://twitter.com/InsideManUtd/status/412247330662801408

Lord TSC

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Liverpool humiliating Spurs

Be interesting to see if they drop AVB from our point of view, given Spurs would have had lower expectations and are ahead of us in the table.

nullzero

MagicIRL wrote: »

Suarez scares me. So talented.

If he was up there with the Messi's and Ronaldo's of this world he would have gotten to that level much younger. If he's still banging in goals in this way in four or five years time I'd be hugely surprised. Bit of the Diego Milito's about him.

homerjay2005

nice to get back to winning ways, Villa were awful though. need 5 more wins now until the window opens to keep us in the running for 4th place.

Liverpool being 8 points ahead of us is really worrying though, we dont look like catching them at the moment and they are our biggest threat to 4th place.

Rayne Wooney

homerjay2005 wrote: »

nice to get back to winning ways, Villa were awful though. need 5 more wins now until the window opens to keep us in the running for 4th place.

Liverpool being 8 points ahead of us is really worrying though, we dont look like catching them at the moment and they are our biggest threat to 4th place at the moment.

Apparently they weren't :eek:

homerjay2005

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Apparently they weren't :eek:

worst team ive seen this season.

as to how Lambard made no changes or switches on their left hand side for 60+ minutes, ill never know. shocking from him, it was blatantly obvious that we were killing them down that side.

Corvo

homerjay2005 wrote: »

worst team ive seen this season.

as to how Lambard made no changes or switches on their left hand side for 60+ minutes, ill never know. shocking from him, it was blatantly obvious that we were killing them down that side.

Poor Luna. He got torn to shreds. Not too often you will say that about our wingers this season.

DM_7

Confidence is a big factor and no surprise that going a way from OT would see it easier to find some. When confidence is low its easier to play away on the counter than it is at home when you have to take the game to the visitors.

Glad to see Cleverley admit during the week he wasn't happy with his own performances this season and that he followed it up with a goal today.

Welbeck is a good footballer. Not consistent enough in his finishing, that itself comes from confidence as well. He needs to play up front for that to happen, Andy Cole was similar in his career (as in confidence impacted his finishing dramatically).

beno619

A lot of people seem to forget Welbeck's performances in both legs against Madrid last year.
Surely our best player in both ties ?
He needs to work on his finishing but he's head and shoulders above Cleverley in terms of ability and worthy of being a United player

Rayne Wooney

homerjay2005 wrote: »

worst team ive seen this season.

as to how Lambard made no changes or switches on their left hand side for 60+ minutes, ill never know. shocking from him, it was blatantly obvious that we were killing them down that side.

Exactly the point I was making earlier, a better lb/lw combination and I think we would have struggled desperately to create anything like in other games this season.

beno619

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Exactly the point I was making earlier, a better lb/lw combination and I think we would have struggled desperately to create anything like in other games this season.

No guarantees, Val and Rafa were on fire today.

Rayne Wooney

beno619 wrote: »

No guarantees, Val and Rafa were on fire today.

That's why I said "I think"

Pro. F

Laverkusen in the second game were the worst team we've played this season imo. Villa today were much better organised than that, but still very poor.

beno619

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

That's why I said "I think"

My mistake

aperture_nuig

That Liverpool result and the City result against Spurs I think demonstrates how far off the pace at the top united are, when you compare how hard united had to work for a point at WHL.

..Still, a good enough win today, a big christmas period for us together with some of the right results for other teams at the top and we could be up to the dizzying heights of 4th in the league. Given our run of the last month or so, that would be great progress.

Corvo

I think we can look at further than fourth. No reason that we shouldn't be picking up 9 points in the next three games before we get Spurs again, and depending on results, we could be right up there again.

MANUTD99

Pro. F wrote: »

Why are you changing the subject all of a sudden? The question of whether they deserve to start in big games is completely different from the question of whether they deserve to be at the club. You could at least acknowledge my response to you before changing the conversation to something else.

To answer your question here, the way they have performed overall this season neither of them are good enough for United in the big games just now. The same is true of Vidic, Evans, Smalling, Jones, Rio, Evra, Carrick, Fellaini, Giggs, Nani, Valencia, Young, RvP, Kagawa and Hernandez.

The problem has not been that all these players are not good enough, but rather that Moyes' management skills have not been good enough. He may yet turn it around, he may not.

If the manager had the team playing well and Cleverley was given the opportunity of regular starts beside a suitable CM partner then I think he would have a decent chance of pushing on to being good enough for first choice at United long term. Welbeck I have less faith in, because I think he was given a very good opportunity for the 11/12 season and he maybe failed to score enough.

Plenty will disagree with my assessment of Cleverley, I wouldn't criticise anybody just now for thinking he'll only ever be good enough for back up at the club. But people calling for the pair of them to be sold I've got no time for.

I disagree with your assessment of Cleverley. I think he is one of the most average midfielders in recent memory to play for us. I don't think he would get into any of our rivals starting 11. I don't disagree he tries hard and trains hard but not good enough to be in our team. I don't think he can dictate a game, defend well, play killer balls, score lots of goals. I think he is un-creative with the ball and always looks for the easiest pass. Thats my opinion and I'm entitled to it. If we were loosing 1 nil to Barcalona in Champions League and we brought him on I wouldn't be thinking to myself that he was gonna to push on and win us the game

Somebody mentioned before that we had Phil Neville and John O Shea who were average but they could play in a few positions and cover different roles.

mike65

nullzero wrote: »

If he was up there with the Messi's and Ronaldo's of this world he would have gotten to that level much younger. If he's still banging in goals in this way in four or five years time I'd be hugely surprised. Bit of the Diego Milito's about him.

Obviously you can talk about different leagues and how hard or easy it is to score in them but you will find Suarez has been banging them in since his teens

http://int.soccerway.com/players/luis-suarez/2290/

J. Marston

Corvo wrote: »

I think we can look at further than fourth. No reason that we shouldn't be picking up 9 points in the next three games before we get Spurs again, and depending on results, we could be right up there again.

Can't have that mentality after what we did on our previous run of easy games. Take each one as it comes and see what happens.

Rayne Wooney

I think he's easily 3rd best player in the world right now but any comparisons with Messi and Ronaldo is just a discredit to their ability.

They are just worlds apart from him.

RobertKK

Great to see Fletcher back, a good win but Villa were poor, United need to improve from here on in.

Pro. F

MANUTD99 wrote: »

I disagree with your assessment of Cleverley. I think he is one of the most average midfielders in recent memory to play for us. I don't think he would get into any of our rivals starting 11. I don't disagree he tries hard and trains hard but not good enough to be in our team. I don't think he can dictate a game, defend well, play killer balls, score lots of goals. I think he is un-creative with the ball and always looks for the easiest pass. Thats my opinion and I'm entitled to it. If we were loosing 1 nil to Barcalona in Champions League and we brought him on I wouldn't be thinking to myself that he was gonna to push on and win us the game

Somebody mentioned before that we had Phil Neville and John O Shea who were average but they could play in a few positions and cover different roles.

You asked me why I think the people who were calling for Cleverley and Welbeck to be sold are gobshítes. I answered you, but now you are takling about whether Cleverley would start for our rivals or win us a game when we are 1-0 down to Barcelona. You aren't very good at sticking to a topic are you?

RasTa

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

I think he's easily 3rd best player in the world right now but any comparisons with Messi and Ronaldo is just a discredit to their ability.

They are just worlds apart from him.

Not this season, a lot better players around Ronaldo and Messi too.

Blatter

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

I think he's easily 3rd best player in the world right now but any comparisons with Messi and Ronaldo is just a discredit to their ability.

They are just worlds apart from him.

Not at all.

He has 1.54 goals per 90 mins this season over a decent sample size. That is just extraordinary. He obviously needs to keep up this sort of form for a while longer for him to be truly compared with Messi and Ronaldo but there is nothing wrong with claiming he's on their level at the minute.

UnitedIrishman

Pro. F wrote: »

Yes reward for hard work. They both work hard every time they play and they both obviously love the club and are doing their best to improve themselves and help their team.

So what if Cleverley has criticised his own performances? To say his performances have been of an average standard this season is completely fair. The whole squad except for Rooney, DDG and maybe RvP have been the exact same - average. Nothing wrong with Cleverley pointing out that he needs to improve his own performance.

And the average performances don't mean the pair of them haven't been working hard on the pitch. They have.

The reason the people who want the pair sold are gobshítes is because we have seen countless examples of how the players who the fans think are "only average" are important at United when they are committed and professional, just like these two are.

This. I was one of the ones who defended Welbeck after the first game at Swansea and I'll be the first to admit his performances haven't been good enough this year so far. But he's been in and out of the side and being played wide which doesn't suit him. He's also only 23 and been a bit part player. Just because Adnan is performing well at 18 doesn't mean that every other player should have been showing the same.

Players like Welbeck and Cleverly are important, even if they aren't starting all the time. They're brought up in the United way and the ethos of the club. Just like the likes of Neville, O'Shea, Brown and Fletcher before them. The amount of abuse those four players alone got through the years and the vital roles they ended up playing at times - just shows how they're needed. It's important to bring through players and I read somewhere that bar Evra and Valencia that all the team had been bought before the age of 21 or were developed at the club. That's what separates United from a lot of clubs. It's important that they care about the club and don't just see it as a stepping stone.

Look at Spurs and see how much of a warning that is to sides who sign millions and millions worth of players who genuinely don't look as if they care about the club and will be happy enough to pick up their wage at the end of the week after a 5-0 drubbing.

The_Kew_Tour

People comparing Welbeck and Cleverly to O Shea and Brown need to get their head out of their ass.

O Shea was our best performer in CL final. Bar 1-2 poor season was more then capable of putting in big performances against big sides.

Brown put in some wonderful performances for us against some big teams.

Both players were not world class, but they were better then average ,more times then not throughout their career at United.

Wes Brown put in a MOTM performance against Man City this season.

Long way to go before Welbeck and Cleverly do that.

Blatter

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

People comparing Welbeck and Cleverly to O Shea and Brown need to get their head out of their ass.

O Shea was our best performer in CL final. Bar 1-2 poor season was more then capable of putting in big performances against big sides.

Brown put in some wonderful performances for us against some big teams.

Both players were not world class, but they were better then average ,more times then not throughout their career at United.

Wes Brown put in a MOTM performance against Man City this season.

Long way to go before Welbeck and Cleverly do that.

As mentioned already, Welbeck was probably our best player over both legs against Madrid.

But I wouldn't think looking at how many great games a player has had against big clubs is a particularly useful way to determine whether that player is good enough for United.

bucketybuck

Why on earth are people lumping Wes Brown in with the supposed "squad players only" like O'Shea or Cleverley? Wes Brown was always a fantastic talent and one of the big young prospects for United at one stage, its only the fact that he was injured more often than not that stopped him developing into a top centre half for the club.

He had the talent though, no question about it.

UnitedIrishman

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

People comparing Welbeck and Cleverly to O Shea and Brown need to get their head out of their ass.

O Shea was our best performer in CL final. Bar 1-2 poor season was more then capable of putting in big performances against big sides.

Brown put in some wonderful performances for us against some big teams.

Both players were not world class, but they were better then average ,more times then not throughout their career at United.

Wes Brown put in a MOTM performance against Man City this season.

Long way to go before Welbeck and Cleverly do that.

Yeah Cleverly and Welbeck do have a long way to go.. because they have a whole career ahead of them. It's easy to look back on O'Shea and more so Fletcher now and say they were good squad players etc.. but at the time they were 22-23, there were fans demanding for them to be shipped out - that they were useless etc.

Hindsight is one thing.

Oh and I wasn't comparing performances between the two groups, I was mostly stating their importance as part of the squad.

Blatter

bucketybuck wrote: »

Why on earth are people lumping Wes Brown in with the supposed "squad players only" like O'Shea or Cleverley? Wes Brown was always a fantastic talent and one of the big young prospects for United at one stage, its only the fact that he was injured more often than not that stopped him developing into a top centre half for the club.

He had the talent though, no question about it.

Because that's essentially what he became. He could have been more but for injuries, but he wasn't. He was a squad player.

The_Kew_Tour

UnitedIrishman wrote: »

Yeah Cleverly and Welbeck do have a long way to go.. because they have a whole career ahead of them. It's easy to look back on O'Shea and more so Fletcher now and say they were good squad players etc.. but at the time they were 22-23, there were fans demanding for them to be shipped out - that they were useless etc.

Hindsight is one thing.

Oh and I wasn't comparing performances between the two groups, I was mostly stating their importance as part of the squad.

Cleverly is 24. Welbeck is 23.

John O Shea and Wes Brown were playing regularly for United by time they got to 21/22. Brown made breakthrough at 19-20 years old in the 98/99 season.

So there is still a considerable gap to make up there.

Cantona's Collars

Amazing how certain players put in a performance today after Moyes stating that he'd be getting rid of a few,shows how complacent some of them had become,you'd swear they had nothing to prove.

IrishIrish

zerks wrote: »

Amazing how certain players put in a performance today after Moyes stating that he'd be getting rid of a few,shows how complacent some of them had become,you'd swear they had nothing to prove.

Orr maybe it had nothing at all to do with it?

Will I Amnt

zerks wrote: »

Amazing how certain players put in a performance today after Moyes stating that he'd be getting rid of a few,shows how complacent some of them had become,you'd swear they had nothing to prove.

I doubt it was anybody that started today tbh.
Can't see him giving anybody he wants to get rid of a starting place in the team unless it's absolutely necessary through injuries or whatever.

Pro. F

zerks wrote: »

Amazing how certain players put in a performance today after Moyes stating that he'd be getting rid of a few,shows how complacent some of them had become,you'd swear they had nothing to prove.

Which players exactly are you talking about?

UnitedIrishman

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Cleverly is 24. Welbeck is 23.

John O Shea and Wes Brown were playing regularly for United by time they got to 21/22. Brown made breakthrough at 19-20 years old in the 98/99 season.

So there is still a considerable gap to make up there.

Yeah O'Shea had a good first season at 21 playing at LB, but then was absolutely stink for a few seasons and was wanted out by most fans before redeeming himself.

Also Brown may have made his breakthrough in 98/99 but he didn't feature regularly at all. He was in and out of the team. And whilst he had some massive performances at times (Barca at home), there were other games (remember Villa away funnily enough?) that he was extremely poor in.

We look back and say 'how important were these guys to the squad' and they were. Which is what I'm saying now about. Just because Cleverly and Welbeck aren't performing at a world class level doesn't mean they shouldn't be part of the squad. We can only really judge their true worth when they're finished.