Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14 Mod warning post #718

DM_7

UnitedIrishman wrote: »

Yeah O'Shea had a good first season at 21 playing at LB, but then was absolutely stink for a few seasons and was wanted out by most fans before redeeming himself.

Also Brown may have made his breakthrough in 98/99 but he didn't feature regularly at all. He was in and out of the team. And whilst he had some massive performances at times (Barca at home), there were other games (remember Villa away funnily enough?) that he was extremely poor in.

We look back and say 'how important were these guys to the squad' and they were. Which is what I'm saying now about. Just because Cleverly and Welbeck aren't performing at a world class level doesn't mean they shouldn't be part of the squad. We can only really judge their true worth when they're finished.

Fletcher, going back to your post before, is the best example of a player that went from hopeless in eyes of many (me included) to the man everyone was sick for when missing from a UCL final.

Nalz

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Apparently they weren't :eek:

They were - back 4 were rubbish, CMs not that much betters.

homerjay2005 wrote: »

Liverpool being 8 points ahead of us is really worrying though, we dont look like catching them at the moment and they are our biggest threat to 4th place.

Plenty of football to be played between now and the end of the season
8 points lead and lack of European football favours Liverpool, but anything can happen.

n32

Cleverley and Welbeck are definitely not nearly good enough to be considered guaranteed first teamers but they are definitely worth having as back up. In their defence, circumstances have worked against them. Welbeck in 2011/2012 looked a good prospect but had a few injuries and in fairness when he is shunted out to the wing its a bit unfiar to expect his finishing to be clinical considering the ground that a winger has to cover during a game. Cleverley had bad luck in his first season aswell and hasnt done enough in the meantime but the likes of Anderson, Young, Ferdinand, Evra etc should definitely be ahead of him when it comes to players getting the boot.

Great to see Fletcher back today. If he is properly back this time he will be a great boost for us

The_Kew_Tour

n32 wrote: »

Great to see Fletcher back today. If he is properly back this time he will be a great boost for us

+1

Vic Vinegar

DM-ICE wrote: »

Fletcher, going back to your post before, is the best example of a player that went from hopeless in eyes of many (me included) to the man everyone was sick for when missing from a UCL final.

This, I remember some guys on here hated Fletcher being in the team, referred to as "Fergie's Lovechild" by one poster (who, I can't recall)

Nalz

Fond memories of Fletch (and Michael Owen ) on that day vs City. Best day in OT I ever had



Ledge

ShooterSF

sky88 wrote: »

Januajz really needs to bulk up very much like ronaldo in his first season gets pushed off the ball a lot

Don't remember him getting pushed off at all today, rather he bought a few free kicks when cornered and isolated by multiple players.

Mr.Crinklewood

Strange photo from today..

Pro. F

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

People comparing Welbeck and Cleverly to O Shea and Brown need to get their head out of their ass.

O Shea was our best performer in CL final. Bar 1-2 poor season was more then capable of putting in big performances against big sides.

Brown put in some wonderful performances for us against some big teams.

Both players were not world class, but they were better then average ,more times then not throughout their career at United.

Wes Brown put in a MOTM performance against Man City this season.

Long way to go before Welbeck and Cleverly do that.

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Cleverly is 24. Welbeck is 23.

John O Shea and Wes Brown were playing regularly for United by time they got to 21/22. Brown made breakthrough at 19-20 years old in the 98/99 season.

So there is still a considerable gap to make up there.

The comparison is perfectly valid.

Different players develop at different rates and, just as importantly, can have wildly different career paths. Judging players by how many starts they made for United at age x is a rubbish way of deciding whether they are good enough to be squad players.

It's easy to look back over the career of an older player and pick out the better performances while glossing over the poorer ones. That is what you are doing now with JOS and Brown. There were plenty of times where they were poor or average and there were plenty of idiots calling for them to be sold as well (I could well have been one of the idiots, I can't remember).

The truth is, over their careers as a whole, JOS and Wes Brown were average performers for United. They probably could have been more if they had gotten the rub of the green in their careers, but they didn't. The team benefited from having them in the squad, just as it benefits from having Cleverley and Welbeck in the squad.

Montroseee

Bombleswizzum wrote: »

This, I remember some guys on here hated Fletcher being in the team, referred to as "Fergie's Lovechild" by one poster (who, I can't recall)

I like Fletcher as a person and player but I think people are overestimating how good he was. He was missed so much because the alternatives were Anderson and Giggs + Carrick wasn't playing as well as he has been in the last 2 yrs. The best of a bad (as far as CL finalists CM options go) lot.

Whatsisname

Mr.Crinklewood wrote: »

Strange photo from today..

Rooney looks quite surprised and excited, almost saying to himself..

"OMG they're gonna do it...they're gonna do it!!"

Mr.Micro

Whatsisname wrote: »

Rooney looks quite surprised and excited, almost saying to himself..

"OMG they're gonna do it...they're gonna do it!!"

Giggs looks like he wants a piece of it as well.

The_Kew_Tour

Powell with a cracking bicycle for Wigan today

The_Kew_Tour

Pro. F wrote: »

The comparison is perfectly valid.

Different players develop at different rates and, just as importantly, can have wildly different career paths. Judging players by how many starts they made for United at age x is a rubbish way of deciding whether they are good enough to be squad players.

It's easy to look back over the career of an older player and pick out the better performances while glossing over the poorer ones. That is what you are doing now with JOS and Brown. There were plenty of times where they were poor or average and there were plenty of idiots calling for them to be sold as well (I could well have been one of the idiots, I can't remember).

The truth is, over their careers as a whole, JOS and Wes Brown were average performers for United. They probably could have been more if they had gotten the rub of the green in their careers, but they didn't. The team benefited from having them in the squad, just as it benefits from having Cleverley and Welbeck in the squad.

I was not comparing the age.

I was mealy pointing out that comparing Welbeck and Cleverly to the careers of O Shea and Brown at both stages was incorrect and stupid.

and it is.

tallaghtmick

Mr.Crinklewood wrote: »

Strange photo from today..

Evra eye gouging Welbeck!

Rayne Wooney

I think our season depends on the January signings or lack of, if we get a top player(s) in it'll not only improve our team but give everyone a confidence boost.

A lot will disagree but I don't think the current team will put us in the top 4.

Mr.Crinklewood

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Powell with a cracking bicycle for Wigan today

Vine link

PhlegmyMoses

tallaghtmick wrote: »

Evra eye gouging Welbeck!

Has Evra done a Michael Jackson on his arms?

Burt Macklin

Mr.Crinklewood wrote: »

Strange photo from today..

Come on Danny, give them some privacy, it's rude to stare! :pac:

Pro. F

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

I was not comparing the age.

I was mealy pointing out that comparing Welbeck and Cleverly to the careers of O Shea and Brown at both stages was incorrect and stupid.

and it is.

What's this if not comparing their ages and starts?

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Cleverly is 24. Welbeck is 23.

John O Shea and Wes Brown were playing regularly for United by time they got to 21/22. Brown made breakthrough at 19-20 years old in the 98/99 season.

So there is still a considerable gap to make up there.

kryogen

Bombleswizzum wrote: »

This, I remember some guys on here hated Fletcher being in the team, referred to as "Fergie's Lovechild" by one poster (who, I can't recall)

More then one poster

Who was a big fan of Fletcher back in the day when he was awful?

He worked hard and developed into a good player, a very good player in fact. I think if he hadn't had his development hampered so much in his younger days he could have been even better.

The_Kew_Tour

Pro. F wrote: »

What's this if not comparing their ages and starts?

I am pointing out the the stupid notion of comparing players like O Shea and Brown who were delivering good performances at the same stages in there careers as Welbeck and Clev. Much younger

Age is just a number.

Comparing Brown contribution especially at his time at the club and level of performances he produced compared to the 2 today would be a insult.

supersean1999

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

I think our season depends on the January signings or lack of, if we get a top player(s) in it'll not only improve our team but give everyone a confidence boost.

A lot will disagree but I don't think the current team will put us in the top 4.

The squad is good enough to finish in the top 4.without a doubt. We won't be 8 points behind lpool on Jan 1st. I can see us catching them and finishing 4 th.

Pro. F

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

I am pointing out the the stupid notion of comparing players like O Shea and Brown who were delivering good performances at the same stages in there careers as Welbeck and Clev. Much younger

Age is just a number.

Comparing Brown contribution especially at his time at the club and level of performances he produced compared to the 2 today would be a insult.

Your first paragraph doesn't make any sense.

Do you deny that different players can develop at different rates and have wildly different career paths?

Rayne Wooney

I'm not so certain.

Hopefully we won't have to find out and we will buy some players in January.

titan18

I really hope Moyes and Woodward go out and sign Guarin for us. Would be an excellent signing

The_Kew_Tour

Pro. F wrote: »

Your first paragraph doesn't make any sense.

Do you deny that different players can develop at different rates and have wildly different career paths?

Of course players can develop better at a younger or older stage.

That might come about for Welbeck and Cleverly.

Nobody will be more happy to see Welbeck and Cleverly turn into United superstars then me. Personally they both come across as decent guys, especially Welbeck. I heard lot of nice things about him and he is meant be good off the field.

But when people have to go back to a game in February of this year to tell you the last time a player had a good game it kinda tells its own story.

Their careers have stalled somewhat over past couple of seasons. Welbeck has not improved a jot since the 11/12 season. He really hasnt.

homerjay2005

supersean1999 wrote: »

The squad is good enough to finish in the top 4.without a doubt. We won't be 8 points behind lpool on Jan 1st. I can see us catching them and finishing 4 th.

just looking at their fixtures there, they still have Chelsea and city to play 4 times and away to us.

i would hope we are within 3 points come the first of January anyway though
they have a very handy run of games in January & February.

one thing at a time though, we still have to start winning games before we can start thinking about catching them.

IamtheWalrus

I was at Villa Park today.

The_Kew_Tour

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

I was at Villa Park today.

Were you there before?

Great ground for away trip isnt it?

PhlegmyMoses

I'm always wary of criticising the likes of Cleverley when I see how good Fletcher became. He was around 24 when he started to really come into his own. Around 07/08.

Jimmy Iovine

BBC One now.

Fergie is getting an award.

edgecutter

I hope I'm wrong, but Welbeck, Valencia and Cleverly always have a decent game once in a while, I don't think their form is going to dramatically change.

kryogen

titan18 wrote: »

I really hope Moyes and Woodward go out and sign Guarin for us. Would be an excellent signing

Would be a band aid, would prefer a proper solution to the midfield problem. He would be alright, but we already have enough squad players

LiamoSail

I would have done anything to see Roy Keane appear on that screen instead of ronaldo :pac:

IvySlayer

Imagine Fergie sent Mike Phelan to do the acceptance speech :P

Jimmy Iovine

The usual from Fergie. Nothing new.

Interesting to hear Ronaldo saying that he originally wanted number 28. Imagine if he had been allowed :pac:.

J. Marston

Mr.Crinklewood wrote: »

Strange photo from today..

Phil is a strange young fella.

IamtheWalrus

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Were you there before?

Great ground for away trip isnt it?

I had walked around it before but this was my first actual game there. I loath Birmingham but Villa Park is pleasant.

kryogen

LiamoSail wrote: »

I would have done anything to see Roy Keane appear on that screen instead of ronaldo :pac:

What was the award for this time?

On a side note, who do you support?

kryogen

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

I had walked around it before but this was my first actual game there. I loath Birmingham but Villa Park is pleasant.

Ah Birmingham is alright once you know your way around

Bit of a **** hole of course, but plenty of fun to be had there

The_Kew_Tour

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

I had walked around it before but this was my first actual game there. I loath Birmingham but Villa Park is pleasant.

I like Birmingham nightlife, but not fond of place during day. Would not live there lets say. Great ground for away day.

It was better when we had the whole end behind our Goals to our selfs.

LiamoSail

kryogen wrote: »

What was the award for this time?

On a side note, who do you support?

It was a lifetime achievement award at the BBC sports personality of the year ceremony, and I'm a Liverpool fan

kryogen

LiamoSail wrote: »

It was a lifetime achievement award at the BBC sports personality of the year ceremony, and I'm a Liverpool fan

Did he not get a life time achievement award from them already? Ah maybe it was someone else, I hope you don't take offence to the question either, none intended at all.

MANUTD99

titan18 wrote: »

I really hope Moyes and Woodward go out and sign Guarin for us. Would be an excellent signing

I think he is a pretty bad player. I've watched inter a few times on BT/ESPN/Setanta and he in a country where you get a lot of time on the ball he makes some dreadful passes. The intensity of the PL would be a disaster for him

Lord TSC

Jimmy Iovine wrote: »

BBC One now.

Fergie is getting an award.

Ugh, that's going to make life harder for Moyes


:pac::pac::pac::pac:

RasTa

I would like Blatter to continue on PL threads, Zerks can continue on CL

Nice shin from Powell today

The_Kew_Tour

What time is CL draw on tomorrow?

bennyx_o

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

What time is CL draw on tomorrow?

Coverage starts at 10am on SSN. Draw starts at 11am Irish time

Rayne Wooney

It starts at 1