Congratulations Enda

Floppybits

Today is a very important anniversary for our dear leader Enda, today marks the 38 year anniverary of when Enda was first elected to the Dail as a 24 year old.

Im still trying to Figure out what he has done in all those years in the Dail? I reckon most people would not have heard from him until he took over the reigns on the Fine Gael party.

spank_inferno

Is he still getting his teaching salary?

bmaxi

Floppybits wrote: »

Today is a very important anniversary for our dear leader Enda, today marks the 38 year anniverary of when Enda was first elected to the Dail as a 24 year old.

Im still trying to Figure out what he has done in all those years in the Dail? I reckon most people would not have heard from him until he took over the reigns on the Fine Gael party.

When you figure that out, try and figure out what he has done in the interest of the common good since becoming Taoiseach. That should occupy your mind for the foreseeable future, don't book any holidays.

touts

Floppybits wrote: »

Today is a very important anniversary for our dear leader Enda, today marks the 38 year anniverary of when Enda was first elected to the Dail as a 24 year old.

Im still trying to Figure out what he has done in all those years in the Dail? I reckon most people would not have heard from him until he took over the reigns on the Fine Gael party.

38 years in the Dail. Elected as a 24 year old. It's no wonder he hasn't a clue about the lives of ordinary people struggling to survive. He's been on the gravy train all his life. How flawed is our democracy when guys like this are elected to "represent" people.

Sand

True - most of our political representatives live in a bubble. They do not come from "ordinary" families. They have never worked "ordinary" jobs in any real sense - maybe just to kill time whilst waiting for the call.

The idea that Kenny has simply sat around on a teachers and TDs salary since 24...he was elected as a pawn of older party bosses, useful only for his family name and I cant recall him doing anything of note since other than stumbling to an election win against what can only be described as the most unpopular and toxic Irish political brand since the Black and Tans.

grainnewhale

touts wrote: »

38 years in the Dail. Elected as a 24 year old. It's no wonder he hasn't a clue about the lives of ordinary people struggling to survive. He's been on the gravy train all his life. How flawed is our democracy when guys like this are elected to "represent" people.

Pretty much the same as our highly esteemed president.

Scofflaw

touts wrote: »

38 years in the Dail. Elected as a 24 year old. It's no wonder he hasn't a clue about the lives of ordinary people struggling to survive. He's been on the gravy train all his life. How flawed is our democracy when guys like this are elected to "represent" people.

Not sure what the flaw is supposed to be there. He's the head of Fine Gael, the electorate voted Fine Gael sufficient seats at the last election to form the government, he's Taoiseach - pretty straightforward, democracy functioning as it's supposed to, surely?

He's a career politician - sure, but then politics is a full-time job. If we were hiring a plumber, would we want someone with 38 years on the job, or would we want someone who did it a bit, part time? Do people suppose there is no special skill set to being a politician? Is it supposed to be a job for amateurs?

That said, sure, there's a tendency for politicians to live in a bubble, surrounded by people who are also in politics. The same is true of most walks of life - by the time someone is senior in, say, science, or academia, or banking, the chances are that most of the people they know are also reasonably senior in science, or academia, or banking, and most of the people they interact with outside their personal life are in the same field as them. And that does have a tendency to work out badly, but it's hard to avoid, and not really a fundamental flaw of democracy - I don't think it's quite as bad in Ireland as elsewhere, for politicians at least.

So, what exactly is the flaw? That the public continues to elect politicians to political office? That's back to "the electorate are the problem", which they can't really be in a democracy.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Sand

@Scofflaw

He's a career politician - sure, but then politics is a full-time job. If we were hiring a plumber, would we want someone with 38 years on the job, or would we want someone who did it a bit, part time? Do people suppose there is no special skill set to being a politician? Is it supposed to be a job for amateurs?

Is it? Or has is it simply become one as a result of politicians being increasingly salaried and pensioned like civil servants throughout the 19th and 20th centuries? Id think that the very concept of a "career politician" has diminished democracy. It has created a class of representatives that are so divorced from the people they claim to represent that they need focus groups, pollsters and spin doctors to communicate with them. Simultaneously these career politicians have a crushing financial superiority that stamps out the potential of "ordinary" people from trying to cross the line into the political world other than trying to play the voting lottery every couple of years. Its actually a mirror of earlier centuries when politics was purely a rich mans game - a similar divide exists today with a similar disenchantment with politics and politicians.

If politics does have a special skillset required, can you point out what special skill it was a 24 year old Enda Kenny possessed that say, anyone else did not?

Phoebas

spank_inferno wrote: »

Is he still getting his teaching salary?

touts wrote: »

38 years in the Dail. Elected as a 24 year old. It's no wonder he hasn't a clue about the lives of ordinary people struggling to survive. He's been on the gravy train all his life.

Enda just can't win.
He's either described as a teacher, unqualified to run a country or a career politician out of touch with the people.

People need to make their minds up! Scratch that. They have. Time and time again.

touts wrote: »

How flawed is our democracy when guys like this are elected to "represent" people.

Flawed? He got elected time and time again. How do you think democracy is supposed to work?

wexie

Phoebas wrote: »

He's either described as a teacher, unqualified to run a country or a career politician out of touch with the people.

I didn't think they were mutually exclusive?

Gloomtastic!

Scofflaw wrote: »

Not sure what the flaw is supposed to be there. He's the head of Fine Gael, the electorate voted Fine Gael sufficient seats at the last election to form the government, he's Taoiseach - pretty straightforward, democracy functioning as it's supposed to, surely?

He's a career politician - sure, but then politics is a full-time job. If we were hiring a plumber, would we want someone with 38 years on the job, or would we want someone who did it a bit, part time? Do people suppose there is no special skill set to being a politician? Is it supposed to be a job for amateurs?

That said, sure, there's a tendency for politicians to live in a bubble, surrounded by people who are also in politics. The same is true of most walks of life - by the time someone is senior in, say, science, or academia, or banking, the chances are that most of the people they know are also reasonably senior in science, or academia, or banking, and most of the people they interact with outside their personal life are in the same field as them. And that does have a tendency to work out badly, but it's hard to avoid, and not really a fundamental flaw of democracy - I don't think it's quite as bad in Ireland as elsewhere, for politicians at least.

So, what exactly is the flaw? That the public continues to elect politicians to political office? That's back to "the electorate are the problem", which they can't really be in a democracy.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Listened to him on the radio this morning announcing our great achievement of leaving the bail-out - while how many billions are still waiting to be written off on loans and mortgages?

Reading verbatim from a sheet of paper, pausing to try and catch a breath every now and then. Not an ounce of oratory skill, no charisma whatsoever. To say this is our great leader, who is going to save us from the depths of hell, is one of the biggest jokes in Europe.

Phoebas

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

Reading verbatim from a sheet of paper, pausing to try and catch a breath every now and then. Not an ounce of oratory skill, no charisma whatsoever. To say this is our great leader, who is going to save us from the depths of hell, is one of the biggest jokes in Europe.

We tried charismatic, style over substance, leaders in the past and they didn't work out.
A fairly dull, but competent administrator is probably just what we need at the moment.

eigrod

touts wrote: »

How flawed is our democracy when guys like this are elected to "represent" people.

Enda Kenny would be a long way down the pecking order if I was looking for people to prove your point above.

I'd be thinking 2 prominent FF leaders in North Dublin who continued to get elected for the best part of 30 years each while the stink of corruption was all round them, rather than Enda Kenny to prove your point.

Gloomtastic!

Phoebas wrote: »

We tried charismatic, style over substance, leaders in the past and they didn't work out.
A fairly dull, but competent administrator is probably just what we need at the moment.

No it's not.

We need someone who can stand up to the vested interests that are ruining this country - the unions, the pensioners, the professional bodies. We've got someone who hides behind his spin doctors who is incapable of holding even the most simple debate, with anyone, on any one of the numerous problems we have, without resorting to slagging them off.

I don't understand, and maybe someone here can enlighten me, what all that nonsense was last week about Enda being chosen for some big role in Europe due to the fantastic job he did during our term presiding over the EU last year.

Gmol

Not a fan of the guy but he inherited possibly the worst economic crisis ever seen. We have a long way to go and they have shied away from some difficult decisions and taken some tough unpopular decisions. Give this they have done ok. However I expect ff to get back in as they will embark on another spending spree.

eigrod

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

No it's not.

We need someone who can stand up to the vested interests that are ruining this country - the unions, the pensioners, the professional bodies.

That's so wrong. He was the first leader in the history of the state to stand up the Catholic Church - the biggest vested interest of all.

Maybe we should bring Michael Woods back, huh ?

bmaxi

Scofflaw wrote: »

He's a career politician - sure, but then politics is a full-time job. If we were hiring a plumber, would we want someone with 38 years on the job, or would we want someone who did it a bit, part time? Do people suppose there is no special skill set to being a politician? Is it supposed to be a job for amateurs?


cordially,
Scofflaw

Hardly a reasonable analogy. A plumber would need to prove himself on the job from day one, nobody is going to continue to employ a plumber ad infinitum without without proof of performance. The same can't be said of politicians who just need to belong to the right party.
I'm not saying Kenny is bad at what he does although he doesn't inspire confidence and has yet to prove himself. His remark that people would just have to "suck it up" after the latest round of cuts , while it may be factual, does show all the arrogance of the cossetted rich and won't endear him to many. Noblesse Oblige and all that.

Gloomtastic!

eigrod wrote: »

That's so wrong. He was the first leader in the history of the state to stand up the Catholic Church - the biggest vested interest of all.

Maybe we should bring Michael Woods back, huh ?

That's right. He managed to get all the money they owed from the redress scheme. Exposing them as bigoted Neanderthals, totally out of kilter with the modern world, is easy compared to seperating them from their cash. But to hell with us taxpayers, we get screwed for everything!

eigrod

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

That's right. He managed to get all the money they owed from the redress scheme. Exposing them as bigoted Neanderthals, totally out of kilter with the modern world, is easy compared to seperating them from their cash. But to hell with us taxpayers, we get screwed for everything!

The damage regarding their money was done long before Kenny came to power (thank you Dr. Woods).

He showed balls that no previous leader showed following the publication of the Cloyne report, during the abortion debate and the gay marriage debate. As I said earlier, they are (were) the most powerful lobby group in the history of the state.

Manach

eigrod wrote: »

The damage regarding their money was done long before Kenny came to power (thank you Dr. Woods).

He showed balls that no previous leader showed following the publication of the Cloyne report, during the abortion debate and the gay marriage debate. As I said earlier, they are (were) the most powerful lobby group in the history of the state.

Nonsense. Which again shows how wrong the liberal group think. Even a cursory glance at the history of the human rights abuses carried out by this state since its foundation against prisoners, youth and those with mentally incapacity which were not related to the Church. Kenny is a weathervane yielding to which ever wind is blowing, and the anti-Church crowd are the most flatulent.

eigrod

Manach wrote: »

Which again shows how wrong the liberal group think. Even a cursory glance at the history of the human rights abuses carried out by this state since its foundation against prisoners, youth and those with mentally incapacity which were not related to the Church. .

What has any of that got to do with Gloomtastic's and my posts ?

Busted Flat.

Scofflaw wrote: »

Not sure what the flaw is supposed to be there. He's the head of Fine Gael, the electorate voted Fine Gael sufficient seats at the last election to form the government, he's Taoiseach - pretty straightforward, democracy functioning as it's supposed to, surely?

He's a career politician - sure, but then politics is a full-time job. If we were hiring a plumber, would we want someone with 38 years on the job, or would we want someone who did it a bit, part time? Do people suppose there is no special skill set to being a politician? Is it supposed to be a job for amateurs?

That said, sure, there's a tendency for politicians to live in a bubble, surrounded by people who are also in politics. The same is true of most walks of life - by the time someone is senior in, say, science, or academia, or banking, the chances are that most of the people they know are also reasonably senior in science, or academia, or banking, and most of the people they interact with outside their personal life are in the same field as them. And that does have a tendency to work out badly, but it's hard to avoid, and not really a fundamental flaw of democracy - I don't think it's quite as bad in Ireland as elsewhere, for politicians at least.

So, what exactly is the flaw? That the public continues to elect politicians to political office? That's back to "the electorate are the problem", which they can't really be in a democracy.

cordially,
Scofflaw

A lot of people put ashtrays on their motorbikes.

Scofflaw

bmaxi wrote: »

Hardly a reasonable analogy. A plumber would need to prove himself on the job from day one, nobody is going to continue to employ a plumber ad infinitum without without proof of performance. The same can't be said of politicians who just need to belong to the right party.
I'm not saying Kenny is bad at what he does although he doesn't inspire confidence and has yet to prove himself. His remark that people would just have to "suck it up" after the latest round of cuts , while it may be factual, does show all the arrogance of the cossetted rich and won't endear him to many. Noblesse Oblige and all that.

Actually, I would say there that the problem is that you know quite quickly whether a plumber is any good, but judging the performance of governance is much more difficult.

There are people who will always say that Enda is doing terribly, those who will always say he's doing well, those who think that someone else could do better and know who they're thinking of, those who think that someone else should be able to do better but can't think of who that might be, those who think he's doing OK with the bad hand he was dealt - and so on.

The problem with governing a country is that we only have the one to govern, and no test country to test things on and see how they might have gone better. Whereas bad plumbing tends to be obvious.

cordially,
Scofflaw

K-9

bmaxi wrote: »

Hardly a reasonable analogy. A plumber would need to prove himself on the job from day one, nobody is going to continue to employ a plumber ad infinitum without without proof of performance. The same can't be said of politicians who just need to belong to the right party.
I'm not saying Kenny is bad at what he does although he doesn't inspire confidence and has yet to prove himself. His remark that people would just have to "suck it up" after the latest round of cuts , while it may be factual, does show all the arrogance of the cossetted rich and won't endear him to many. Noblesse Oblige and all that.

Which goes back to the point that the people elect the politicians they deserve. Everybody on the internet and in real life has a good whinge about the quality of the politicians on offer, it's apparently glaringly obvious how self serving and useless they are, but nobody seems to have the balls to do anything about it. We've yet to see a meaningful new party founded in a time that is rich pickings for one.

Cookie_Monster

Scofflaw wrote: »

He's a career politician - sure, but then politics is a full-time job. If we were hiring a plumber, would we want someone with 38 years on the job, or would we want someone who did it a bit, part time?

I don't hire a plumber to rewire my house though, same way I'm not particularly impressed by a teacher / politician running the dept of finance instead of someone with a finance background, or a lawyer running the dept of health or similar setups. Politics is an industry rather the a career and as an industry needs a range of specialist qualifications within it to properly function.

Do people suppose there is no special skill set to being a politician?

there doesn't appear to be, there are no education level barriers to entry so anyone, regardless of education or qualification, can get in the job. There is no continuous professional development that I can see. There would be very few companies who would hire high level executives to manage them on such a basis. Of course I suppose it is not the politicians fault but rather that the electorate never hold them to such high standards to begin with.

grainnewhale

eigrod wrote: »

What has any of that got to do with Gloomtastic's and my posts ?

Simply that Enda was not being brave, he was merely stating what the majority believe, looking for populist support.

grainnewhale

K-9 wrote: »

Which goes back to the point that the people elect the politicians they deserve. Everybody on the internet and in real life has a good whinge about the quality of the politicians on offer, it's apparently glaringly obvious how self serving and useless they are, but nobody seems to have the balls to do anything about it. We've yet to see a meaningful new party founded in a time that is rich pickings for one.

The problem with a meaningful new party, is that everybody's idea of meaningful would be different.

grainnewhale

Scofflaw wrote: »

Not sure what the flaw is supposed to be there. He's the head of Fine Gael, the electorate voted Fine Gael sufficient seats at the last election to form the government, he's Taoiseach - pretty straightforward, democracy functioning as it's supposed to, surely?

He's a career politician - sure, but then politics is a full-time job. If we were hiring a plumber, would we want someone with 38 years on the job, or would we want someone who did it a bit, part time? Do people suppose there is no special skill set to being a politician? Is it supposed to be a job for amateurs?

That said, sure, there's a tendency for politicians to live in a bubble, surrounded by people who are also in politics. The same is true of most walks of life - by the time someone is senior in, say, science, or academia, or banking, the chances are that most of the people they know are also reasonably senior in science, or academia, or banking, and most of the people they interact with outside their personal life are in the same field as them. And that does have a tendency to work out badly, but it's hard to avoid, and not really a fundamental flaw of democracy - I don't think it's quite as bad in Ireland as elsewhere, for politicians at least.

So, what exactly is the flaw? That the public continues to elect politicians to political office? That's back to "the electorate are the problem", which they can't really be in a democracy.

cordially,
Scofflaw

The only skill required is to be able to talk confidently and assuredly on a subject you know nothing about. Unfortunately Enda doesn't even have this.

Fr Tod Umptious

grainnewhale wrote: »

The only skill required is to be able to talk confidently and assuredly on a subject you know nothing about. Unfortunately Enda doesn't even have this.

So he has to be a waffaler then ?

As the other poster said Enda just can't win

bmaxi

Scofflaw wrote: »

Actually, I would say there that the problem is that you know quite quickly whether a plumber is any good, but judging the performance of governance is much more difficult.

There are people who will always say that Enda is doing terribly, those who will always say he's doing well, those who think that someone else could do better and know who they're thinking of, those who think that someone else should be able to do better but can't think of who that might be, those who think he's doing OK with the bad hand he was dealt - and so on.

The problem with governing a country is that we only have the one to govern, and no test country to test things on and see how they might have gone better. Whereas bad plumbing tends to be obvious.

cordially,
Scofflaw

The problem, as I see it, is not with Enda Kenny in particular but with the political system in general, including the Civil and Public Services. There is no accountability, from the Taoiseach, through the Judiciary, the Garda Commissioner and the legal system to the lowliest road sweeper the buck is constantly in motion. That would not be the case with the plumber or any other tradesman, somebody would have to face the consequences.
I agree with a later poster about the apathy abroad among the electorate and the inexplicable decisions made at every G.E. to support one party or another but the evidence is, based on the popularity of independents at the moment, that at least that compulsion is not as strong today. The truth is though, until we can persuade the 30 to 40 per cent of the electorate who routinely don't vote, to do so, we are destined to stay in the rut.
On the issue of politicians living in a bubble. Evidence from the courts the other day to suggest they are not alone. The wife of a developer, who is in hock to the taxpayer for millions, was awarded almost €10,000 euro a month living expenses, in order, as the Judge put it, so she could continue to live in the manner to which she was accustomed. Now the point I'm making here is not concerning the legality of the situation, the fund from which she is to be paid this is in dispute, but that the Judge, firstly should consider €10,000 a month a reasonable sum even though it is more than the annual sum thought sufficient for an unemployed person, but that he considered she had the right to continue living in this manner. What more right has she than anybody who had a good job and lived well in the Celtic Tiger era and why should it be necessary for her to continue living on Shrewsbury Road, when Priory Hall was considered good enough for the people who financed her fortune? If the case goes against her, the money in the fund will be forfeit to the taxpayer, so, in that event, the taxpayer is actually footing her bill.