TI Race Calendar

littlemsfickle

EC1000 wrote: »

Ah here, seriously?? You cant blame race organisers for people not showing up! Imagine if they oversold like you suggest and then everyone turns up....

Eh yeah, you can't oversubscribe a race based on the assumption that people won't turn up.....pretty sure there would be some insurance issues there.

BTH

EC1000 wrote: »

Ah here, seriously?? You cant blame race organisers for people not showing up! Imagine if they oversold like you suggest and then everyone turns up....

He'd be on here complaining about drafting :pac:

bryangiggsy

littlemsfickle wrote: »

Eh yeah, you can't oversubscribe a race based on the assumption that people won't turn up.....pretty sure there would be some insurance issues there.

Could you not insure the race for 500 knowing that 400 would turn up? Anyway just an idea to ensure fairer scoring accross NS .. We all know field size can affect pts

tunney

bryangiggsy wrote: »

Could you not insure the race for 500 knowing that 400 would turn up? Anyway just an idea to ensure fairer scoring accross NS .. We all know field size can affect pts

AFAIK there would be no problems with the over subscription approach with TIs insurance if the safety documentation covered it and had documentation to back it up.

Anyways the NS isn't really a serious thing so what harm

bryangiggsy

One other pt which people may agree or disagree with is to limit the number of one day licences per race... To 20% of entries..with the mini marathon of triathlons athlone being the exception... All other entrants must have a season licence. ...prob for another thread but related to NS and fairer distribtion of pts.

bryangiggsy

bryangiggsy wrote: »

One other pt which people may agree or disagree with is to limit the number of one day licences per race... To 20% of entries..with the mini marathon of triathlons athlone being the exception... All other entrants must have a season licence. ...prob for another thread but related to NS and fairer distribtion of pts.

20% only a guess am sure ti wud have more reliable nos

bryangiggsy

tunney wrote: »

Anyways the NS isn't really a serious thing so what harm

Judging by your performance in Blacksod Dave i can see how you would think that

mossym

littlemsfickle wrote: »

Eh yeah, you can't oversubscribe a race based on the assumption that people won't turn up.....pretty sure there would be some insurance issues there.

in fairness, it happens everywhere. airlines do it all the time. There is always a minimum no show number

i volunteered at Hotw this year wishing i could do it, it was a kick in the teeth looking at all the unclaimed race chips sitting there at the end of registration

catweazle

amphkingwest wrote: »

Requires some clarification, but I always thought that races had to apply to be considered for NS status.

Either Race Directors are not applying for NS status for their events to ease pressure in the race build up or events are falling short in the application process. I believed there was a minimum set of standards and infrastructural commitment to be made for a race to become NS.

Happy to be corrected or have anyone clarify the exact situation.

I would agree with this - I mentioned to a friend that his clubs race should be national championship let alone a national series race. He said the application was a pain in the arse and they werent interested. I think people are taking it for granted that every race in the country are queuing up to be national series which may or may not be the case.

As an aside there seems to be chopping and changing every year but Groomsport seems to get either a NS or a NC every year. With 4 or 5 good middle distance races in the country that all get more entries than this - this one always puzzles me - is it to annoy Voldemort

toomuchdetail

catweazle wrote: »

I would agree with this - I mentioned to a friend that his clubs race should be national championship let alone a national series race. He said the application was a pain in the arse and they werent interested. I think people are taking it for granted that every race in the country are queuing up to be national series which may or may not be the case.

I am involved in a orgainsing a club race and the process of application is in all fairness to TI not that difficult , if as a club you strive to put on the best possible race with a good athlethe experience you will already have ticked 95% of the boxes for a NS race so the stretch to a NS is not that far , if on the otherhand you offer a good club race and are happy to hit numbers and move on then getting to NS level will be a stretch.

tunney

bryangiggsy wrote: »

Judging by your performance in Blacksod Dave i can see how you would think that

Yes because I have taken the last few years and that race in particular seriously. Despite not training in 2013, not riding my TT bike in a year and only putting it together the night before I still held a wattage you could only dream of. Good luck with the comments and the swim as a weapon.

Anyways back to the TI Calendar - Kenmare as National champs, as it should be.

EC1000

catweazle wrote: »

With 4 or 5 good middle distance races in the country that all get more entries than this - this one always puzzles me

As previously mentioned, not all races apply for NS status. It can be an administrative pain in the a**e and is a hell of a lot more work for RDs relative to running a non-NS race.

@BGiggsy, the amount of places you can have in a race is dictated by the number approved in your race safety plan. If you oversell (i.e. sell 550 for a race that has TI approval for 500) and 502 turn up, who is going to explain to the last two that turn up that.. ooops, we are full, sorry......... (because if there was an issue and insurance became relevant, it would be invalidated....) On the other hand, if you get approval for 600 and only sell 500 (as suggested above), then surely you are doing the extra 100 out of a place anyway and defeating the purpose?

peter kern

good to see that oly and half champs go to the races with the best prize money in ireland.

bryangiggsy

toomuchdetail wrote: »

I am involved in a orgainsing a club race and the process of application is in all fairness to TI not that difficult , if as a club you strive to put on the best possible race with a good athlethe experience you will already have ticked 95% of the boxes for a NS race so the stretch to a NS is not that far , if on the otherhand you offer a good club race and are happy to hit numbers and move on then getting to NS level will be a stretch.

I agree the criteria is not that difficult to hit. The biggest issue in my opinion over the past few years is the few weekends available to fit in the calendar and no of races. Allowing only 1 ns race a weekend has had a major impact on the process but i agree with that rule. For all races bound by tides then picking a date that works with TI is a major stumbling block.

bryangiggsy

EC1000 wrote: »

As previously mentioned, not all races apply for NS status. It can be an administrative pain in the a**e and is a hell of a lot more work for RDs relative to running a non-NS race.

@BGiggsy, the amount of places you can have in a race is dictated by the number approved in your race safety plan. If you oversell (i.e. sell 550 for a race that has TI approval for 500) and 502 turn up, who is going to explain to the last two that turn up that.. ooops, we are full, sorry......... (because if there was an issue and insurance became relevant, it would be invalidated....) On the other hand, if you get approval for 600 and only sell 500 (as suggested above), then surely you are doing the extra 100 out of a place anyway and defeating the purpose?

NS points are calculated on the no of ti licence finishers not the approved numbers unless u mean something else

mossym

EC1000 wrote: »

If you oversell (i.e. sell 550 for a race that has TI approval for 500) and 502 turn up, who is going to explain to the last two that turn up that.. ooops, we are full, sorry......... (because if there was an issue and insurance became relevant, it would be invalidated....)

it would be easy enough to to take the numbers from races from the past few years, and calculate to statistical significant limits the number by which you can oversell the races and still have no-one left out. For example, something like Hotw could have 100 no-shows, it would be easy enough to figure out how many extra you can take which would allow you to get that number down to 20. You can always have a buffer. (if we only we knew a mathematically minded person involved in tri, eh KG?)


The other option is that once a race sells out, take a waiting list who get a discounted enrty rate but who will travel to the race on the basis that they get to take a no show spot, or their money returned if the slots aren't there. the reward is cheaper entry to a sold out race, at the risk of travelling and not getting to race. someone from donegal isn't going to enter a race in cork on that basis, but locals would.

there are ways around it, all of them better than having 20% of the slots at a race empty

EC1000

bryangiggsy wrote: »

NS points are calculated on the no of ti licence finishers not the approved numbers unless u mean something else

Not sure what NS points have to do with this?? I'm only talking about race entry numbers

Kurt Godel

mossym wrote: »

it would be easy enough to to take the numbers from races from the past few years, and calculate to statistical significant limits the number by which you can oversell the races and still have no-one left out. For example, something like Hotw could have 100 no-shows, it would be easy enough to figure out how many extra you can take which would allow you to get that number down to 20. You can always have a buffer. (if we only we knew a mathematically minded person involved in tri, eh KG?)

The "problem" as such is people expecting NS points to be equivalent from race to race- so a race with 600 entries will have a lot of local heroes, meaning your NS points (as calculated from the 30th percentile being 100 I believe) will be higher as the 30th percentile gets diluted as Johnny O'Local and his merry bunch of GAA-shorts have-a-go's take their time finishing. Races with higher "no-shows" will (I imagine?) have a higher standard as the weaker athletes are more likely to not turn up (that's how I'm reading the issue anyway, could be wrong, nothing to base that on but a hunch).

There's nothing terrible with calculating NS points off the 30% percentile baseline per se- it lessens the impact of outliers like Gavin Noble turning up to a race for instance, and gives an approximation of the slightly-better-than-mean finishers. This works better overall when the data sets are larger, so should be less fair/accurate this year (with less races). There are more detailed points-scoring models for sure, but all will be less sophisticated than the ultimate arbiter- base your points on where you come in a race, thats what really matters. The winner of the NS should theoretically be able to win 5 races and so score as close to 5 as possible, everyone else follows +++that depending on their position. The NS as its stands calculates a degree of averageness, but thats a policy decision. Never really understood the desire to remove fast times, myself. Surely a race is defined by its winner?

*Edit*

bryangiggsy wrote: »

NS points are calculated on the no of ti licence finishers not the approved numbers unless u mean something else

Good point, that blows my local hero hunch to pieces...

mossym

Kurt Godel wrote: »

The "problem" as such is people expecting NS points to be equivalent from race to race- so a race with 600 entries will have a lot of local heroes, meaning your NS points (as calculated from the 30th percentile being 100 I believe) will be higher as the 30th percentile gets diluted as Johnny O'Local and his merry bunch of GAA-shorts have-a-go's take their time finishing. Races with higher "no-shows" will (I imagine?) have a higher standard as the weaker athletes are more likely to not turn up (that's how I'm reading the issue anyway, could be wrong, nothing to base that on but a hunch).

There's nothing terrible with calculating NS points off the 30% percentile baseline per se- it lessens the impact of outliers like Gavin Noble turning up to a race for instance, and gives an approximation of the slightly-better-than-mean finishers. This works better overall when the data sets are larger, so should be less fair/accurate this year (with less races). There are more detailed points-scoring models for sure, but all will be less sophisticated than the ultimate arbiter- base your points on where you come in a race, thats what really matters. The winner of the NS should theoretically be able to win 5 races and so score as close to 5 as possible, everyone else follows +++that depending on their position. The NS as its stands calculates a degree of averageness, but thats a policy decision. Never really understood the desire to remove fast times, myself. Surely a race is defined by its winner?

thanks for the explanation, i was missing the significance of the full field to the NS points

Kurt Godel

mossym wrote: »

thanks for the explanation, i was missing the significance of the full field to the NS points

Like I said, its only a hunch, I might well be wrong on that. Tunney's right when he says the NS is just a bit of fun (but no harm in having a bit of fun, eh;)). Basing everything off the 30th percentile finisher is as good or as bad as basing everything off the 1st or 33rd or 50th or 70th percentile. Its just an arbitrary standard to have a bit of numbers fun. I reckon once you're aiming for higher points this year you're doing it right- I know I got 495 points last year and am raging I didn't get over 500:)

adamski8

Huff n Puff wrote: »

6 races out of 16 I will be avoiding next year due to personal stances on issues / reviews / course types. Still plenty of choice left.

Which ones would you avoid?

Podge83

Now that I've pencilled in next years races :- one quick question:

Do fully paid up TI members get any preference over ODI's for NS races when entry is opened. (I'm pretty sure the answer is no).

EC1000

Podge83 wrote: »

Now that I've pencilled in next years races :- one quick question:

Do fully paid up TI members get any preference over ODI's for NS races when entry is opened. (I'm pretty sure the answer is no).

You are right, no they dont!

P2C

Meanwhile over on the Preadator tri Club facebook page.They areright to be very disapointed. Imagine allthe work that club have done to develop juniors and TI hand the NS to a private English company a couple of miles away. I wonder was there any brown envelobes. I though a event has to be runningfor 3 years before reaching NS status. That would rule out Belfast & Lough Cultra. Moving the goalposts again. Shocking

Hi all,
The Triathlon Ireland calendar for 2014 has just been announced which includes all TI sanctioned events for next years racing season. Our beloved club race is set for Sunday 3rd August and as always should prove to be a fantastic event. After seven years of putting on this event we achieved National Series status in 2013. This is a big deal for our club in that it proves the quality of the event and in many ways recognises all the hard work and dedication of our members.
Unfortunately Triathlon Ireland have this year reduced the amount of National Series events from 24 to 16 and as a result we have lost our status, next years race will NOT be a National Series race.
There will now be only one National Series event in the whole of Connacht making it next to impossible for our members to compete in the National Series without travelling the length and breath of the country. We would like to appeal to our members to respond with their reaction to this news so that we can coordinate a response on behalf of the club. We welcome all your comments or suggestions, please take a few moments to let us know what you think.
You can comment on this post by e-mail to predatorseniorsecretary@gmail.com

bryangiggsy

Lough cutra should be given a wide birth by all at that price...

tunney

Kurt Godel wrote: »

The "problem" as such is people expecting NS points to be equivalent from race to race- so a race with 600 entries will have a lot of local heroes, meaning your NS points (as calculated from the 30th percentile being 100 I believe) will be higher as the 30th percentile gets diluted as Johnny O'Local and his merry bunch of GAA-shorts have-a-go's take their time finishing. Races with higher "no-shows" will (I imagine?) have a higher standard as the weaker athletes are more likely to not turn up (that's how I'm reading the issue anyway, could be wrong, nothing to base that on but a hunch).

You are a mathemation. You come up with a better system. I know the people who came up with the scoring system their background is not maths.(I was one of them)

Kurt Godel wrote: »

There's nothing terrible with calculating NS points off the 30% percentile baseline per se- it lessens the impact of outliers like Gavin Noble turning up to a race for instance, and gives an approximation of the slightly-better-than-mean finishers. This works better overall when the data sets are larger, so should be less fair/accurate this year (with less races). There are more detailed points-scoring models for sure, but all will be less sophisticated than the ultimate arbiter- base your points on where you come in a race, thats what really matters.

This was done. The larger the number of races then the odds of people gaming the system increase. Smaller NS race and Billy MiddleOfPacker wins and gets 100 points while Fazz comes third to thornton and dolan gets 90 points in a big races. Reducing the number of races? look at the sh1t fits being had in the west over 24-16 race

Kurt Godel wrote: »

The winner of the NS should theoretically be able to win 5 races and so score as close to 5 as possible, everyone else follows +++that depending on their position.

This is the real issue - its not an overall competition. In all honest the winner of the NS is like the "winner" of the Coca Cola cup. Great but its the FA Cup and Premiership that matter. (National Champs).
If the NS has a point its as an AG competition - so the scope for gaming increases. If there were five NS races in the country and everyone could get into them then absolute placing works. There are way more so it doesn't.

Kurt Godel wrote: »

The NS as its stands calculates a degree of averageness, but thats a policy decision. Never really understood the desire to remove fast times, myself. Surely a race is defined by its winner?

It's not about the overall winner.............

tunney

P2C wrote: »

Meanwhile over on the Preadator tri Club facebook page.They areright to be very disapointed. Imagine allthe work that club have done to develop juniors and TI hand the NS to a private English company a couple of miles away. I wonder was there any brown envelobes. I though a event has to be runningfor 3 years before reaching NS status. That would rule out Belfast & Lough Cultra. Moving the goalposts again. Shocking

Hi all,
The Triathlon Ireland calendar for 2014 has just been announced which includes all TI sanctioned events for next years racing season. Our beloved club race is set for Sunday 3rd August and as always should prove to be a fantastic event. After seven years of putting on this event we achieved National Series status in 2013. This is a big deal for our club in that it proves the quality of the event and in many ways recognises all the hard work and dedication of our members.
Unfortunately Triathlon Ireland have this year reduced the amount of National Series events from 24 to 16 and as a result we have lost our status, next years race will NOT be a National Series race.
There will now be only one National Series event in the whole of Connacht making it next to impossible for our members to compete in the National Series without travelling the length and breath of the country. We would like to appeal to our members to respond with their reaction to this news so that we can coordinate a response on behalf of the club. We welcome all your comments or suggestions, please take a few moments to let us know what you think.
You can comment on this post by e-mail to predatorseniorsecretary@gmail.com

Connaught has roughly 7% of the population of the island of Ireland. Guess what 7% of 16 (number of NS races) is roughly??? Wow - its ONE.

Wow wee - guess what, live in a sparsely populated region then don't expect the same level of services and events as a densely populated one........

Herc

You're missing the point Tunney - you obviously know from above post and other musings that have been voiced over the past 24-48 hours from Connacht clubs on twitter / FB etc that they are really pi$$ed - main issue Connacht clubs have is WHO the Connacht events were awarded to and the likes of Predator, Sligo and Lough Key are dead right to feel hard done by - if it's a situation that TI intend to rotate the events the following year like they have suggested, will you see a situation whereby say the 3 mentioned clubs get their event? - highly unlikely so it becomes 2-3 years that they are out of the loop - do they completely fall out of the NS loop at that point? TI have scored a MAJOR own goal in Connacht - I don't think we'll get much sympathy from you Tunney one way or the other and trust me, we can live with that, but TI, wait for a knock on the door very shortly

Podge83

tunney wrote: »

This is the real issue - its not an overall competition. In all honest the winner of the NS is like the "winner" of the Coca Cola cup. Great but its the FA Cup and Premiership that matter. (National Champs).
QUOTE]


Surely the biggest thing to win in a season should be a competition spread over the year (as is the "Premiership" you quote). The national champs, while great, can be lost by a puncture or some other mishap (or indeed not being able to turn up for some reason - like missing out on entry).

chicofuentes

The s&&t fit is not about 24 to 16. It's the fact that an event like lough cutra which doesn't meet the printed criteria gets selected. It's a commercial entity incorporating a series of UK events which has its own league system. The organisation of this event in the last 2 years pales in comparison to other club based events. It has nothing to do with Connaught , it's about NS selection criteria .