TI Race Calendar

tunney

Herc wrote: »

You're missing the point Tunney - you obviously know from above post and other musings that have been voiced over the past 24-48 hours from Connacht clubs on twitter / FB etc that they are really pi$$ed - main issue Connacht clubs have is WHO the Connacht events were awarded to and the likes of Predator, Sligo and Lough Key are dead right to feel hard done by - if it's a situation that TI intend to rotate the events the following year like they have suggested, will you see a situation whereby say the 3 mentioned clubs get their event? - highly unlikely so it becomes 2-3 years that they are out of the loop - do they completely fall out of the NS loop at that point? TI have scored a MAJOR own goal in Connacht - I don't think we'll get much sympathy from you Tunney one way or the other and trust me, we can live with that, but TI, wait for a knock on the door very shortly

As I said on Twitter to another aggrieved Connacht man - as long as the selection process and criteria were adhered to then that's it. You mightn't like the result but that's it.

Clubs cannot be prioritised over non-clubs given my understanding of the guidelines. If there is a will for this to be the case then a motion should be tabled at the AGM to make it part of the guidelines.

I would think twice about suggesting bribery as a reason for the decision.

From my time as race secretary I do remember a point about being an existing race and been in existence for a number of years. If that is not the case and those are still the documented guidelines then.........
That being said its been years since TI had a dedicated race secretary.

tunney

chicofuentes wrote: »

The s&&t fit is not about 24 to 16. It's the fact that an event like lough cutra which doesn't meet the printed criteria gets selected. It's a commercial entity incorporating a series of UK events which has its own league system. The organisation of this event in the last 2 years pales in comparison to other club based events. It has nothing to do with Connaught , it's about NS selection criteria .

Can you show me the criteria and the ones not met?

Playing devils advocate here.

tunney

Podge83 wrote: »

tunney wrote: »

This is the real issue - its not an overall competition. In all honest the winner of the NS is like the "winner" of the Coca Cola cup. Great but its the FA Cup and Premiership that matter. (National Champs).
QUOTE]


Surely the biggest thing to win in a season should be a competition spread over the year (as is the "Premiership" you quote). The national champs, while great, can be lost by a puncture or some other mishap (or indeed not being able to turn up for some reason - like missing out on entry).

Then let the juniors, and the elites compete in the NS.

dited

tunney wrote: »

Can you show me the criteria and the ones not met?

Playing devils advocate here.

I was under the impression that a race had to have been run for at least three years immediately prior to its inclusion in the NS (which would exclude Lough Cutra and Belfast Titanic, I think), though I've just looked and haven't been able to find it anywhere on TI website.

Kurt Godel

tunney wrote: »

You are a mathemation. You come up with a better system. I know the people who came up with the scoring system their background is not maths.(I was one of them)



This was done. The larger the number of races then the odds of people gaming the system increase. Smaller NS race and Billy MiddleOfPacker wins and gets 100 points while Fazz comes third to thornton and dolan gets 90 points in a big races. Reducing the number of races? look at the sh1t fits being had in the west over 24-16 race



This is the real issue - its not an overall competition. In all honest the winner of the NS is like the "winner" of the Coca Cola cup. Great but its the FA Cup and Premiership that matter. (National Champs).
If the NS has a point its as an AG competition - so the scope for gaming increases. If there were five NS races in the country and everyone could get into them then absolute placing works. There are way more so it doesn't.


It's not about the overall winner.............

Best top five placings out of X NS races. So the best possible score is is the lowest cumulative total 5. Head to head to decide ties; head-to head in the NC if its still tied. Billy MiddleofPack who flukes one race win will be found out, unless he is Billy HeadofPack. Thats the "purest" scoring system in a mathematical sense. But I get why the current system wants to lessen outliers, like I said, there's nothing inherently wrong about the scoring system based +/- off 30th percentile finisher. It works well for what it is, a target for midpackers and Ag'ers looking to improve and have a bit of similar competition. If you were involved in setting it up, and you didn't have any math background, you all got it pretty much right. There's pro's and con's of any system that weighs results, and by and large anything more complicated has more scope for error.

chicofuentes

tunney wrote: »

Can you show me the criteria and the ones not met?

Playing devils advocate here.

As far as I'm aware a race has to be in existence for at least 3 years, this is just running for 2 years. TI officials oversee TI races and write reports accordingly. I don't think this race was covered by TI hence the hefty price to cover insurance in previous years.

tunney

chicofuentes wrote: »

As far as I'm aware a race has to be in existence for at least 3 years, this is just running for 2 years. TI officials oversee TI races and write reports accordingly. I don't think this race was covered by TI hence the hefty price to cover insurance in previous years.

Being awkward again but.... you don't have any hard and fast evidence of criteria not being met? Correct?

http://www.triathlonireland.com/index.php?id=107&nid=1266
TI event for two years already.....

dited

chicofuentes wrote: »

I don't think this race was covered by TI hence the hefty price to cover insurance in previous years.

I think it was TI sanctioned alright.

The event is sanctioned by the governing body for triathlons in Ireland, Triathlon Ireland ensuring the highest possible organisational and safety standards.

The high price was more to cover profit margins rather than insurance, IMO.

tunney

I am being a little bit of a pr1ck deliberately on the awarding. Mainly because in the absence of breached guidelines nothing was done wrong.

In "the good old days" we proposed a maximum cost that races that were NS races could charge. Safe to say at GBP85 Lough Cultra would have failed that one.

Reasoning for that limit was that race organisers had a captive audience so if they wanted could charge what they liked. Looks like that limit is no longer considered.

For me the commercial status of the organising entity is not a issue.
However at 85 pounds it should have been immediately discounted as an NS candidate.

tunney

Thinking about this more :

* Do I think that there should be more than 7% of the NS races in Connaught?
NO
* Do I think that club races should be more likely to be NS races than commercial ones?
NO
* Would I have for one second considered a race that charged 85 pounds to be in the NS?
Not a fvcking chance, for this I think TI should be hung, draw and quartered.

Kurt Godel

toomuchdetail wrote: »

For me the commercial status of the organising entity is not a issue.
However at 85 pounds it should have been immediately discounted as an NS candidate.

I entered the Oly a couple of days ago for €53, that's the current price. Seems favourable compared to most other Oly's?

sconhome

Kurt Godel wrote: »

I entered the Oly a couple of days ago for €53, that's the current price. Seems favourable compared to most other Oly's?

There's a massive 33% discount for 'local' athletes. Each year there is a big push through the clubs to support the race and a discount circulated to facilitate signing up.

On Twitter recently that early bird 33% discount was passed around.

elvis jones

tunney wrote: »

I am being a little bit of a pr1ck deliberately on the awarding. Mainly because in the absence of breached guidelines nothing was done wrong.

In "the good old days" we proposed a maximum cost that races that were NS races could charge. Safe to say at GBP85 Lough Cultra would have failed that one.

Reasoning for that limit was that race organisers had a captive audience so if they wanted could charge what they liked. Looks like that limit is no longer considered.

For me the commercial status of the organising entity is not a issue.
However at 85 pounds it should have been immediately discounted as an NS candidate.

:eek:

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Kurt Godel wrote: »

I entered the Oly a couple of days ago for €53, that's the current price. Seems favourable compared to most other Oly's?

Thats the price i also seen and was willing to pay it for an OLY, any higher and its off my list of races to do.

dited

Final price will be £85 according to this. Think it'll be discounted at varying rates till April though.

Kurt Godel

amphkingwest wrote: »

There's a massive 33% discount for 'local' athletes. Each year there is a big push through the clubs to support the race and a discount circulated to facilitate signing up.

On Twitter recently that early bird 33% discount was passed around.

It appears to be available for €53 to anyone right now without any need for codes or discounts- fair enough that might be an "early bird" price, but its a far cry from the GBP85 (=€101) being suggested.

Just wanted to correct that sterling figure being discussed; if there's a debate about the pro's and con's of a club race vs. a commercial one, may as well keep the facts straight.

*Edit*- it's currently available for much cheaper than the advertised early bird pricing...

kchsligo

Just seen that Sligo Olympic is on the same day as Hell of the West. Very bad timing considering that a lot of athletes in Sligo have travelled to Kilkee for the last few years

On a personal note I'm gonna have a lot of trouble convincing the wife that I should travel to Clare rather then popping over to Rosses Point :-(

sconhome

Correction its 30% and is off automatically for the next while.

kchsligo

Just seen that Sligo Olympic is on the same day as Hell of the West. Very bad timing considering that a lot of athletes in Sligo have travelled to Kilkee for the last few years

On a personal note I'm gonna have a lot of trouble convincing the wife that I should travel to Clare rather then popping over to Rosses Point :-(

BTH

Tunney, you deleted one of your posts, which you should have left to stand as I believe it sums this issue up well.

I don't think anyone in Connaught has any problem with the number of races in the province. Mullaghmore, Blacksod and Lough Cultra, they probably have too many given the population, with Athlone, CK and Lanesboro also on their doorstep. Overall I think the Geographical spread is very good, with only the far north west without anything on their doorstep, and the midlands being well utilised to please as many as possible.

The only issues anyone has is with the number of races and the actual races awarded.

The reduced number of races was done to ensure the top athletes race each other more often. That will now happen but it will make getting an entry more difficult to get. The obvious way around this is a two tier system, with a larger series for the majority, similar to that which existed, and a much much smaller super series where the top guys and gals race either other 4/5 times with a final at the end. I think we'll eventually get to that point.

Everyone is confused about Lough Cutra getting a NS race. Whether you don't agree with it based on the entry price, the races non-existent history, the organisers, or the number of more deserving races in the area, its a difficult one to understand. Are all international brand races in this country doomed for failure as athletes prefer to support their locally organised race? This race has certainly struggled for numbers previously, and I'd imagine there was some pressure put on TI by the organisers.

tunney

BTH wrote: »

Tunney, you deleted one of your posts, which you should have left to stand as I believe it sums this issue up well.

I don't think anyone in Connaught has any problem with the number of races in the province. Mullaghmore, Blacksod and Lough Cultra, they probably have too many given the population, with Athlone, CK and Lanesboro also on their doorstep. Overall I think the Geographical spread is very good, with only the far north west without anything on their doorstep, and the midlands being well utilised to please as many as possible.

The only issues anyone has is with the number of races and the actual races awarded.

The reduced number of races was done to ensure the top athletes race each other more often. That will now happen but it will make getting an entry more difficult to get. The obvious way around this is a two tier system, with a larger series for the majority, similar to that which existed, and a much much smaller super series where the top guys and gals race either other 4/5 times with a final at the end. I think we'll eventually get to that point.

Everyone is confused about Lough Cutra getting a NS race. Whether you don't agree with it based on the entry price, the races non-existent history, the organisers, or the number of more deserving races in the area, its a difficult one to understand. Are all international brand races in this country doomed for failure as athletes prefer to support their locally organised race? This race has certainly struggled for numbers previously, and I'd imagine there was some pressure put on TI by the organisers.

Which one did I delete?

BTH

tunney wrote: »

Which one did I delete?

You asked yourself three questions, then talked about getting hung, drawn and quartered. Unfortunately for most, you weren't to be on the receiving end :P

Mods see everything......... :pac:

tunney

BTH wrote: »

You asked yourself three questions, then talked about getting hung, drawn and quartered. Unfortunately for most, you weren't to be on the receiving end :P

Mods see everything......... :pac:

I deleted it because I thought I got the price wrong, turns out I didn't.

If you PM me the text I will repost.

Who do I report MODS to for personal abuse?

BTH

tunney wrote: »

I deleted it because I thought I got the price wrong, turns out I didn't.

If you PM me the text I will repost.

Who do I report MODS to for personal abuse?

I've just re-instated it for you.

You would need to report me to the internet itself :cool:

P2C

Rosses Point - STC have not agreed to the dates on the TI calender our event dates had been changed to suit NS events. I think we were advised by the TO last year to move our Olympic race into June or the consequences of cold water/sea swim would mean almost certain cancellation. The club moved to the 14th of June to avoid a clash with Mullagmore (Normally 21st of June).

I wonder how Lough Cultra will get over the lake been the correct temperature for an Olympic race.

Triathlon Ireland have now moved the Rosses Point Olympic race to the 28th of June or clashing with the Hell of the West NS/NC. I think the club will almost certain cancel our Olympic race. It beggars belief.

Even more annoying to the club is that we have been running a sprint on the Bank Holiday weekend since 2009 and have been asked to move to the 16th of August. Omagh have been moved to the BH weekend and Loughrea moved last year and the Shawdowman setup.

Its all very hard to take but maybe the club are being punished for raising concerns about the 2012 calender when we were excluded from the NS for not paying an invoice that in fact we had already paid. You could not make this stuff up if you tried.

I have no issue with losing the NS. I have no issue with the geographical spread (I would if I was from Leterkenny) I have an issue specifically that another sport club who are fundraising using a triathlon are receiving NS status. I would really question why this event seems to take precedence over the local triathlon clubs. It wont be long before the GAA start running triathlons. I have no issues with any of these companies running or other sports running triathlons as long as they contribute. But should they get the premier event status.

The event except for location in my opinion does not deserve NS status. It's a draft fest, unsafe entry/exit, crap prizes, poorly marshaled event that raises money to buy dinghies yearly.

I really wonder will these not club events run the junior clubs, run 5 swim sessions per week, run coached bike sessions, run sessions etc because without funds from races we will struggle to do same. I think its a kick in the teeth to local clubs and after volunteering countless hours over the years to the sport it would make you question why bother.

The criteria has now disappeared from TI website but my understanding was that an event had to be 3 years in existence before it could reach NS status. The criteria is so wide and diverse it essentially means that TI can chose what events they want.

elvis jones

tunney wrote: »

I deleted it because I thought I got the price wrong, turns out I didn't.

If you PM me the text I will repost.

Who do I report MODS to for personal abuse?

Eh i wouldn't bother, nothing will be done:rolleyes:;)

Podge83

I’m fairly new to Triathlon and enjoyed my first year. Due to injury I didn’t get going till late in the season though and completed only 4 NS Races.

Many triathletes that I have talked to say that the National Series means a lot to them. They put a decent effort into training in an effort to score well. This sometimes is in the award places and sometimes below. I'd call these fellas and ladies "serious triathletes" who want to develop and improve.

Something is wrong with the changes made for next year. More races than ever yes, but a reduced NS does hurt most in the bracket of a serious triathlete (not elite).

The reason for reducing the quantity of NS races is to give better competition at the top end. It has been suggested above to introduce a type of “Super Series” within the NS – surely this makes sense. The NS would work for the “serious triathlete” and competition at the top end would be improved by the “Super Series”.

These elite races could be run before or after the standard race giving the serious triathlete the chance to look on. If the organisers cry just run it as part of the same race.

The choice of race also raises questions (all as set out above) regarding Club v “Business” races. Surely clubs should be chosen for their developmental policies/ sport promotion youth development etc??!!

The distribution of race type in the NS also raises a question – some will argue that there’s a natural progression from short to long races throughout the season, but no sprint after July and no half distance before the middle of August?

The geographical distribution completely shags me as I live in the extreme SE. However, living in the corner what else can I expect so no complaints there?

On a personal note, for more than a few reasons I’m sorry that Beast of the East is off the list. However they messed up the run distance this year – does that sort of thing get considered by TI? As Hook or by Crook survived obviously not (although I’m glad that it has)

However, it’s what were stuck with now so we’ll have to make it work!!

Kurt Godel

(I totally understand and respect why some would choose to boycott a commercial event that has been given priority over a club one), but for anyone complaining about how the truncated NS will make places harder to come by- isn't the early bird pricing structure of Lough Cutra a good thing? In that, if you are interested in the NS, you will be aware of the calendar at this early stage, and take advantage of the low (by NS standards) early bird price? Anyone interested gets to book their spot at an acceptable price, and good luck to the organizers afterwards if they want to jack up the remaining spaces to what the market will bear. Other NS races will open on a set date with first-come-first-served waiting with CC by their keyboards on a set date? The Lough Cutra model seems fairer to me (fairer for those who want to race the NS).

toomuchdetail

tunney wrote: »

Connaught has roughly 7% of the population of the island of Ireland. Guess what 7% of 16 (number of NS races) is roughly??? Wow - its ONE.

Wow wee - guess what, live in a sparsely populated region then don't expect the same level of services and events as a densely populated one........

Not sure how relevant the point is here - TI has 49 clubs on its site and 11 of these are in the Connacht , been creative and you add in Clare and Donegal and you have 15 clubs in the West .
Been in a sparcely populated area doesnt stop 2,500+ turning up for Gaelforece, 1,500+ for Sea2Summit and another 2,000 between Rough Diamond , Race2Glory ,Achill Roar etc ..

bryangiggsy

Kurt Godel wrote: »

(I totally understand and respect why some would choose to boycott a commercial event that has been given priority over a club one), but for anyone complaining about how the truncated NS will make places harder to come by- isn't the early bird pricing structure of Lough Cutra a good thing? In that, if you are interested in the NS, you will be aware of the calendar at this early stage, and take advantage of the low (by NS standards) early bird price? Anyone interested gets to book their spot at an acceptable price, and good luck to the organizers afterwards if they want to jack up the remaining spaces to what the market will bear. Other NS races will open on a set date with first-come-first-served waiting with CC by their keyboards on a set date? The Lough Cutra model seems fairer to me (fairer for those who want to race the NS).

An early bird price of 53 euro is not a good thing. Its a rip off for a new race and an insult to the tri community here. I cant see any good reason as to why TI would go down this road other than money in their own pockets. Other than kilkee ( the best race in irl imo) and lost sheep (also there ) i dont know any other races were u cant get a slot the day it opens .

On another point is there no NS race the august bank holiday weekend or have i missed it? Loughrea might still have a chance ?