TI Race Calendar

mossym

BTH wrote: »

I would imagine this is a major factor. Athlone & Athy can accommodate very large numbers, which other races can't, and with the reduced number of races perhaps Lough Cutra have committed to be able to host 500/600 or more. Not many club races are going to be willing to take on such numbers while commercial races will just at the opportunity to boost numbers as its pure profit which is all they want in the first place. The more I think about it the more I think this is a major factor in Lough Cutra getting the nod.

lot of sense in this. while people may not like the commercial races, they do have an ability to expand to a level most clubs would struggle to.

Oryx

Anyone know why there is no Tri Grand Prix next year?

MD1983

Oryx wrote: »

Anyone know why there is no Tri Grand Prix next year?

sh*te - i liked the kilkenny course, one of the best bike courses in the country i thought in terms of outright TT, pretty flat and decent road surface, nice place for a transition zone too and local to me....!

MD1983

peter kern wrote: »

huff n puff I would mostly agree with what you write but at the same time thats one of the advantages of capitalism over komunisim you have choices ;-) and people can chose what they want to do. there is a reason why people pay the big money for an ironman they want the razz matas. I guess thats why so many do Athy and Athlone( my personal view is that both are not good races but people want to do them), and i am not sure if we have the right to tell them they cant do what they want to do.
I guess I write a bit like this this way as i have totally given up that the nat series as something valuable (in terms of performace the way you and I see it) and totally agree with BTH,s point of view. keep nat series as fun series, as it is really good for that (even expand it form last years races i would say ) and from the more profit that could generated by ti start a super series that also includes drafting races for juniors.
As for Ns include private races, club races and good races like nenagh and let people chose what race they want to do like we let them buy the bikes they want to buy. ( this where i get a bit lost we spend thaousand euors in gear ( sold by for profit companies) and then when we talk about races they should all be run for no profit.
Give people the choice and the options to do what they want to do

I am more worried that at the moment athetes dont have a chocie to do a nat sereis sprint race in August (?) and september and i think thats problematic for the people that have injuries or want to do an early half Ironman etc etc.

the truth is all average triathletes i talk to love the nat sereis and most of those people are now concered that the scramble to enter race will get worse.( and i cant see how they can be wrong with that point of view)

i dont get the hating on triathy from some people. what i want most from a race is that the course is good and athy is, good swim and bike and ok run.

who really cares about the goodybag or the extra €10 to enter and doesnt enjoy a race just because of that single element to it. i could care less for a good goodybag or t-shirt

MD1983

Huff n Puff wrote: »

I agree with the sentiment, but plenty of clubs try to rip people off too. I would however be far more inclined to support rip-off club races, than commercial events. At least you know your entry fees are staying in the sport. I doubt you will be seeing me or many from our club at these commercial events. We certainly wouldn't help promote them.

Profit should be kept to a minimum in my opinion. Each club should feel a duty to put on the best race possible for their triathletes, at as competitive a price as possible. If prices are high then make sure the experience/prizes/goodie bag are excellent. If there are profits at the end of it then great, if not then that's no big deal.

I dont agree - if club puts on a race it is entitled to make a profit, it takes a risk by putting one on and should insulate itself against that risk by taking profit. if a club made a loss and asked the racer for more money afterwards to make up that loss who would actually contribute?

littlemsfickle

While I would prefer that the money goes to a local club, my main reason for disliking the big commercial races is a bit more selfish....with huge numbers it means you have to be there ages before your race start, have bigger queues for registration, have to park miles away from the venue and invariably they don't provide enough toilets. Those sort of things make a big difference to my enjoyment of the day.

griffin100

MD1983 wrote: »

i dont get the hating on triathy from some people. what i want most from a race is that the course is good and athy is, good swim and bike and ok run.

who really cares about the goodybag or the extra €10 to enter and doesnt enjoy a race just because of that single element to it. i could care less for a good goodybag or t-shirt

I hate Athy - crap swim that changes year to year with multiple wave starts meaning you could be waiting hours for your wave; packed transition with little room to move; no bike security; crap boring short bike route with massive amounts of drafting; **** run course over rough ground and too narrow pathways with lots of traffic; over priced. Still done it twice though as it's close to home.

Podge83

griffin100 wrote: »

I hate Athy - crap swim that changes year to year with multiple wave starts meaning you could be waiting hours for your wave; packed transition with little room to move; no bike security; crap boring short bike route with massive amounts of drafting; **** run course over rough ground and too narrow pathways with lots of traffic; over priced. Still done it twice though as it's close to home.

A river swim with big numbers has to have waves. I don't like river swims - there's no escape from the washing machine!!! (man up he says!).

Agree with everything (although I thought the security wasn't too bad last year) - add that there's stretches of the cycle (OLY) that are dangerous too (narrow with lots of traffic both ways). The drafting in Athy is unavoidable for similar reasons. The run is a blister inducing dodge fest too - absolutely against you if you are strong runner - overtaking is challenging due to narrow course with traffic again going both ways.

That said it's on the list because of its location - one of the few that doesnt require n overniter for me.

tunney

MD1983 wrote: »

sh*te - i liked the kilkenny course, one of the best bike courses in the country i thought in terms of outright TT, pretty flat and decent road surface, nice place for a transition zone too and local to me....!

I thought it was a terrible course. Transition was too long, insecure, the bike was boring and didn't like the dead turns. The run course was rife for cheating. (And people did)

MD1983 wrote: »

i dont get the hating on triathy from some people. what i want most from a race is that the course is good and athy is, good swim and bike and ok run.

who really cares about the goodybag or the extra €10 to enter and doesnt enjoy a race just because of that single element to it. i could care less for a good goodybag or t-shirt

I've done athy, I enjoyed it. I know the organisers. But I do understand some of the hate. The run course can get congested and the waiting around for your wave/race can be painful. 10am registration for a 5pm race and what not.

That being said I'd happily go back to the double olympic any year.

MD1983

griffin100 wrote: »

I hate Athy - crap swim that changes year to year with multiple wave starts meaning you could be waiting hours for your wave; packed transition with little room to move; no bike security; crap boring short bike route with massive amounts of drafting; **** run course over rough ground and too narrow pathways with lots of traffic; over priced. Still done it twice though as it's close to home.

the turn-around point for the olympic and double olympic have been the same for the last four years - what changes? same exit point each year and start point is more or less the same every year except for the double

transition is big but i dont think it more packed than other big races

agreed, bike security could be better

the bike route for sprint is exactly 20k, olympic exactly 40k and double is 80k, i have done the routes countless times in training - what is short about it? bike course is one of the best in the country IMO, are you looking at the scenery or something or why are you bored?

drafting - every race has this

run could be better

different variations of your problems arise at most races. people have an absolute love in for HOTW but if you wanted you could find faults if you were in that mode:

swim that changes every year, why cant this be the same every year?? cant believe they cant put down permanent markers in the sea to fix this??
long boring bike, why cant they have it exactly 40k and could they not lay on some entertainment on the bike course so i dont get bored??
run up a hill - why cant it be flat??
drafting - this only happens at HOTW and not at other races.....

no race is perfect, never will be

mossym

Oryx wrote: »

Anyone know why there is no Tri Grand Prix next year?

are you sure there isn't one? it's possible it just hasn't been added to the calendar yet? i know at least one that wasn't there when it was released first and has since been added

peter kern

I think you hit the nail here, what makes it really interesting for the first timer, or the people only racing a couple of times a year ie to absorb the atmoshere of a big race, all those things can make it annoying for the atheltes that races more frequently.

The new sytem with reduced nat Series races will make it harder for atheltes to enter the races they want to enter.
The nat series by now is a brand and we all now that people love brands, and if i can say so, TI developed this brand better than almost any other federation in europe ) .
At the same time reducing the availability of this brand could hurt the groth of triathlon if you artificially reduce the places for races people want to do. and I am not sure why TI would want to do that.

If TI really wants to help clubs (something that isnt really made clear the way the 2014 sereis is structured) they could set up a super series which them can be a bit more selective and generates entrance numbers most clubs could handle. This would then satisfy pretty much every athlete. In the super series competevie athletes could race. the nat series would still do what it does now.

For clubs it would work as there would be more races which get some sord of branding (and the reason clubs apply to nat series races is that they now they get more income and i think TI should help clubs here the members are TIs shareholder and they are most obliged to look after )

There is a need for every type of racing. cheap small big etc etc.

What people often forget is that those bigger commercial races while maybe not helping clubs so much do bring good money to the community where races are held something which is not a bad thing in the current Irish climate. I dodnt think people apreciate this factor enough all they see is clsoed roads. when it could help there corner shop to survive.

This two tier system could make the NS bigger and also achieve people racing head to head and help clubs. and people have more choices dodnt have to travel to far to nat sereis races if there is more of them. ( still only 1 each weekend )

littlemsfickle wrote: »

While I would prefer that the money goes to a local club, my main reason for disliking the big commercial races is a bit more selfish....with huge numbers it means you have to be there ages before your race start, have bigger queues for registration, have to park miles away from the venue and invariably they don't provide enough toilets. Those sort of things make a big difference to my enjoyment of the day.

Huff n Puff

MD1983 wrote: »

I dont agree - if club puts on a race it is entitled to make a profit, it takes a risk by putting one on and should insulate itself against that risk by taking profit. if a club made a loss and asked the racer for more money afterwards to make up that loss who would actually contribute?

I am not sure where this sense of entitlement to make a profit is coming from? Clubs shouldn't just look at races as profit making machines. Clubs should, first and foremost, look at putting on races as a way of supporting triathlon in Ireland and creating an interest in triathlon in their community.

This profit entitlement outlook is a major problem with race organisation by clubs at the moment. I think the mindset is all wrong. We see too many clubs looking at it as an enrichment program for their club instead of a duty to help develop the sport in this country.

Nobody is asking for a club to make a loss. It should be possible to budget your race in such a way that it never makes a loss. Although, would it be the end of the world if your club put on a spectacularly good race at a small loss? I am not saying it is wrong to make a profit. I am saying obscene profits are obscene.

In cycling, no club would feel an 'entitlement' to make a profit and many of them don't. The clubs run events to support the sport and to get people interested in the club in that area. Making a small loss is pretty much standard for a lot of these races. Somebody should let all the cycling clubs know that they are entitled to make a profit

Podge83

Huff n Puff wrote: »

I am not sure where this sense of entitlement to make a profit is coming from? Clubs shouldn't just look at races as profit making machines. Clubs should, first and foremost, look at putting on races as a way of supporting triathlon in Ireland and creating an interest in triathlon in their community.

This profit entitlement outlook is a major problem with race organisation by clubs at the moment. I think the mindset is all wrong. We see too many clubs looking at it as an enrichment program for their club instead of a duty to help develop the sport in this country.

Nobody is asking for a club to make a loss. It should be possible to budget your race in such a way that it never makes a loss. Although, would it be the end of the world if your club put on a spectacularly good race at a small loss? I am not saying it is wrong to make a profit. I am saying obscene profits are obscene.

In cycling, no club would feel an 'entitlement' to make a profit and many of them don't. The clubs run events to support the sport and to get people interested in the club in that area. Making a small loss is pretty much standard for a lot of these races. Somebody should let all the cycling clubs know that they are entitled to make a profit

I think it is naïve to expect anyone running a race to not target a profit. As one poster above said there are risks involved and there is a huge amount of organisation. Clubs making a profit aren't making a profit to "cream off", they are making a profit to re-invest in the sport in many ways.

mossym

Podge83 wrote: »

I think it is naïve to expect anyone running a race to not target a profit. .

that's the main difference between the clubs and the corporate entity. I'd guess most clubs would like to have a profit, but would prioritise a good race first, and wuld cherish a reputation for having one of the top races in Ireland. corporate entities don't care how good the race is unless it is going to affect returning numbers the following year.

i wouldn't reckon huff n puff is naive here at all, his club put one a cracking race every year at a difficult time of year. Will hopefully be my first time racing it in 2014 and i'm really looking forward to it as it's local to me, and becuase of the reputation it has

Podge83

mossym wrote: »

that's the main difference between the clubs and the corporate entity. I'd guess most clubs would like to have a profit, but would prioritise a good race first, and wuld cherish a reputation for having one of the top races in Ireland. corporate entities don't care how good the race is unless it is going to affect returning numbers the following year.

i wouldn't reckon huff n puff is naive here at all, his club put one a cracking race every year at a difficult time of year. Will hopefully be my first time racing it in 2014 and i'm really looking forward to it as it's local to me, and becuase of the reputation it has

Don't get me wrong - the main reasons Clubs to run races is to "have a race" with all its benefits (races are what we train for after all). Clubs run races for the right reasons but need to not make a loss as most clubs don't have an excess of funds. Lose money and they'll be in trouble. Target at "break even" and you're looking for that trouble.

MD1983

tunney wrote: »

I thought it was a terrible course. Transition was too long, insecure, the bike was boring and didn't like the dead turns. The run course was rife for cheating. (And people did)

.

when did you last do it? bike is pretty much out and back now and different to the original course, only one dead turn at the turnaround point. the old bike course was crap i agree

the run course is now two loops and is much improved with no place that you can really go wrong and changed from the old confusing nonsense that they had...cheaters going to cheat and could on pretty much any course, if you really wanted do the course properly you could

peter kern

In cycling, no club would feel an 'entitlement' to make a profit and many of them don't. The clubs run events to support the sport and to get people interested in the club in that area. Making a small loss is pretty much standard for a lot of these races. Somebody should let all the cycling clubs know that they are entitled to make a profit[/QUOTE]

This is only the half truth, in denmark the race that really incresed membersip for triathlon denmark and participation was challenger copenhagen.
I dodnt have the membership numbers in my head but was most likely the biggest jump of any triathlon fedeartion in Europe in the last 5 years.

You need grassroot sport but you also need a real highlight event.in cycling you have the tour de france that i guess takes care of that world wide. ( a for profit race)

toomuchdetail

Huff n Puff wrote: »

Disclaimer: Even though the race I am tied to was affected by this, my opinion is not clouded by this. If I was on a National Series selection committee I probably wouldn't select our race either. Don't get me wrong, I think we put on a good race and we look after the triathletes that enter (shameless plug!), but there are bigger events out there that provide more of an experience. We view our race as an excellent warm-up race for the open water tri season ahead.
.

I agree with your post and also on Nenagh been a great race , my first ever Tri 5-6 yrs ago and never disappoints - makes staying with the in laws almost bearable ....almost

toomuchdetail

peter kern wrote: »

i agree,i am not sure but maybe Ti sees it in another way why would they chose those commercially organiced races for the NS, they must think it is of benefit to the sport. Has Ti explained why they would chose a commercial race over a club race.
.

I asked TI directly and this is almost a direct qoute as per my previous post :


TI :
"TI fully understand that club finances are often derived from events but sometimes because of the proposed race distance, the date, location and the numbers an event can take, the only choices were events run by commercial organisations"

If you look at the calendar,geography and race histories the explaination above doesnt account for much as some large succesful local races missed out.

It's not about the profit of a race but its about having ability to invest back into the sport at all levels in what ever form we believe will benefit the sport and the club from hiring local coaches to been able to subsidise a local training session if needed .

cart man

Well what do people think of today's news from TI??

"Regional Championships & National Series 2014
I am pleased to announce that on the weekend of the 2/3Aug (Ulster and Connaught) and the weekend of the 16th August (Munster and Leinster) we will have the Inaugural Regional Championships. These should be really exciting developments in competition providing opportunities for athletes to become Regional Champion overall or in their Age Group. Regional Championships are of course thriving events in many other sports promoting competition at a regional level."

[HTML]http://www.triathlonireland.com/index.php?id=107&nid=1553[/HTML]

Huff n Puff

Personally, I wouldn't be interested in a regional champs as I don’t think there are enough top level racers in each province, that would be willing to race, to ever make this an enticing race to do. But fair play to TI for trying something and hopefully it works well.

Fair play to Chris Kitchen for his most recent post on the racing calendar moving forward. He is asking the right quesions anyway. Some nice suggestions from Peter and Ian (I have my own thoughts on my blog), hopefully this leads to the competitive side of the sport on this island prospering in the years to come.

P2C

I like the idea of a regional championship. Back when I started we had a County schools triathlon which was followed by the Connacht schools triathlon and then followed the nationals.

The top of the nationals got picked to represent Ireland. That year Mark Tosh won the youths and big Paul O Doherty was 2nd. I think Mark went to the Commonwealth games and Paul had the Irish Ironman record for a few years at one stage.

To have meaning the regional championships should be qualification for the national champs. That way you have to qualify for the nationals. Maybe the top 25 males and females from each province overall .

To give meaning to age group racing maybe the top 1 or 2 per age group per province including the top 25 overall to contests the All Ireland Final. (Could even have less qualifiers based on size of the region). Qualification for age groupers to represent Ireland in any age group championships for the year come from this pool of athletes. If you don't qualify based on athletic ability. You simply don't represent your country.

If it has meaning it would be coveted and people would show interest and then we might be able to finally decide that the best pool of Athletes are from the west

BTH

Forgive me if I've missed something, I'm out of the country and only pickin up a bit of the info. The provincial champs will provide NS points, right? My current position allows me to manipulate the curcumstances as to whether I race in Leinster or Connaught. I'd imagine many others have this kind of luxury (KT for one could easily rAce Connaught) . Am I better off racing in Connaught and possibly podiuming or racing in Leinster and struggling for a top ten. Which will bring me more NS points. Easy decision. As I said I like the idea, but there are still loop-holes if only people eligible in the region get NS points from that paticular race.

tunney

cart man wrote: »

Well what do people think of today's news from TI??

"Regional Championships & National Series 2014
I am pleased to announce that on the weekend of the 2/3Aug (Ulster and Connaught) and the weekend of the 16th August (Munster and Leinster) we will have the Inaugural Regional Championships. These should be really exciting developments in competition providing opportunities for athletes to become Regional Champion overall or in their Age Group. Regional Championships are of course thriving events in many other sports promoting competition at a regional level."

[HTML]http://www.triathlonireland.com/index.php?id=107&nid=1553[/HTML]

Yeah this was that about 6-7 years ago. No one was interested, ended after a year.

Ceepo

BTH wrote: »

Forgive me if I've missed something, I'm out of the country and only pickin up a bit of the info. The provincial champs will provide NS points, right? My current position allows me to manipulate the curcumstances as to whether I race in Leinster or Connaught. I'd imagine many others have this kind of luxury (KT for one could easily rAce Connaught) . Am I better off racing in Connaught and possibly podiuming or racing in Leinster and struggling for a top ten. Which will bring me more NS points. Easy decision. As I said I like the idea, but there are still loop-holes if only people eligible in the region get NS points from that paticular race.

Would it not be the region that the Club you race for is based. Eg 3D, Leinster. Galway, Connacht. Gotri Munster.

Ceepo

BTH wrote: »

Forgive me if I've missed something, I'm out of the country and only pickin up a bit of the info. The provincial champs will provide NS points, right? My current position allows me to manipulate the curcumstances as to whether I race in Leinster or Connaught. I'd imagine many others have this kind of luxury (KT for one could easily rAce Connaught) . Am I better off racing in Connaught and possibly podiuming or racing in Leinster and struggling for a top ten. Which will bring me more NS points. Easy decision. As I said I like the idea, but there are still loop-holes if only people eligible in the region get NS points from that paticular race.

Would it not be the region that the Club you race for is based. Eg 3D, Leinster. Galway, Connacht. Gotri Munster.

mossym

Ceepo wrote: »

Would it not be the region that the Club you race for is based. Eg 3D, Leinster. Galway, Connacht. Gotri Munster.

What about those tthat aren't in a club? Home address?

Ceepo

mossym wrote: »

What about those tthat aren't in a club? Home address?championship]

I suppose this where TI have to set out the criteria for partaking in regional championship.
My opinion would be the region where someone's club is based. If as you said someone is not a member of a club, then postal address.

I think TI need to act fairly quickly and decisive to ensure something like what BTH pointed out does not happen.
If someone is based in one region but makes a choice to go join a club or racing team that happens to be in a different region they should only be allowed to race in that Clubs region Championship.
I for one am in favor of this championship. If it is ran right from that start and athletes buy into it it could be a a good job.
I would also like to see a club section included, this would ensure better club participation and would give something for the mid packers to aim for.

cart man

My understanding is that you can race under your club or "home" address. Home address being the registered address on TI database.
Not sure if you could end up being Regional Champion in two regions?

I am glad that TI are trying to do something different (albeit something tried a number of years ago - but perhaps circumstances are better nowfor it). It does seem they were a bit slow out of the blocks this year but the ambition is set out to have 2015 and 2016 sorted much earlier which is good.

The last thing that seems to be missing, is a Super Series which there appears to be demand for. I don't think it would be too difficult to nominate a number of races within the National Series as Super Series events. People could declare in advance that they are entering it and thus opting out of the National Series. There would be no AG's within this, purely Irish Super Series winner. Potentially for the Super Series races they could go off in their own wave and some races could be draft legal.