Occupy movement- remember them??

20Cent

“This is a very serious problem, it’s not a new problem, it’s a problem that really goes back to the 1980s, in which we have seen a huge rise in income inequality… For many, many years the middle and those below the middle [have been] actually losing absolutely. And frankly a disproportionate share of the gains, it’s not that we haven’t had pretty strong productivity growth for much of this time in the country, but a disproportionate share of those gains have gone to the top ten percent and even the top one percent. So this is an extremely difficult and to my mind very worrisome problem.”
Janet Wellen

Godge

20Cent wrote: »

Looks like every effort was made to make it as deserving as possible.

If you are being sarcastic, you should say so.


http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/11/13/us-usa-occupy-debt-idUSBRE9AC00020131113

"The group receives almost no information about the people whose debt they buy - only an address, Ross said"

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/12/occupy-wall-street-activists-15m-personal-debt

"Due to the nature of the debt market, the group is unable to specify whose debt it purchases, taking on the amounts before it discovers individuals’ identities"


Those involved admit that no effort was made to ensure the people being forgiven were deserving. The debts paid off could have been debts owed to an upmarket New York cosmetic surgery for all we know (or they for that matter).

Of course, they could have checked up and down every tree in north Dublin like Bertie checking on Ray Burke.

20Cent

Godge wrote: »

If you are being sarcastic, you should say so.


http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/11/13/us-usa-occupy-debt-idUSBRE9AC00020131113

"The group receives almost no information about the people whose debt they buy - only an address, Ross said"

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/12/occupy-wall-street-activists-15m-personal-debt

"Due to the nature of the debt market, the group is unable to specify whose debt it purchases, taking on the amounts before it discovers individuals’ identities"


Those involved admit that no effort was made to ensure the people being forgiven were deserving. The debts paid off could have been debts owed to an upmarket New York cosmetic surgery for all we know (or they for that matter).

Of course, they could have checked up and down every tree in north Dublin like Bertie checking on Ray Burke.

So tell us what more they could have done since all they had was addresses?

Godge

20Cent wrote: »

So tell us what more they could have done since all they had was addresses?

Come on, that is like saying tell us what more Cowen and Lenihan could have done since all they had were banks losing deposits.

There are a million and one better things you can do for the 99% than pay the medical bills of rich Americans (remember these were private medical bills, not people forced to rely on Medicare).

20Cent

Godge wrote: »

Come on, that is like saying tell us what more Cowen and Lenihan could have done since all they had were banks losing deposits.

There are a million and one better things you can do for the 99% than pay the medical bills of rich Americans (remember these were private medical bills, not people forced to rely on Medicare).

Don't get what you are saying about Cowen and Lenihan

In this case they seem to have done all they could to ensure that the debt relieved was those who needed it most. Haven't seen the breakdown of all the debt bought but the first few buys were emergency room debt which cuts out the paying for cosmetic surgery for rich Americans argument.

Jonny7

Occupy clearly don't really know who the debt belonged to, the payment was symbolic more than anything.

In essence they are yet again trying to do something positive but it's rooted in ignorance and misguided idealism.

Ironically, in this case, Occupy seem to be doing the banks a favour by paying off bad debt. I am pretty sure if said banks approached Occupy with an identical proposal they'd be told to **** right off

Blowfish

20Cent wrote: »

So tell us what more they could have done since all they had was addresses?

They could have not bought random debt and instead used the money to set up something similar to Mabs. They'd then be in a far better position to target the money they have directly to those struggling the most.

nesf

Blowfish wrote: »

They could have not bought random debt and instead used the money to set up something similar to Mabs. They'd then be in a far better position to target the money they have directly to those struggling the most.

This. The problem often isn't the debt itself, it's the reasons that got the person into the debt in the first place. Not that it's people's own fault that they're defaulting on debt but often the likes of Mabs can help a person get their income and expenditure under control which benefits people for the very long run.

20Cent

nesf wrote: »

This. The problem often isn't the debt itself, it's the reasons that got the person into the debt in the first place. Not that it's people's own fault that they're defaulting on debt but often the likes of Mabs can help a person get their income and expenditure under control which benefits people for the very long run.

Face it whatever they do there would be someone moaning about it. Re the mabbs idea that would require offices and staff 400k wouldn't past long doing that. Plus there are many organisations doing that already. With the resources they have the manpower helping people with 15 million of medical debt is damn impressive.
They originally wanted to raise 50k got over 600. After all this publicity I imagine their next fundraising drive will get even more.

nesf

20Cent wrote: »

Face it whatever they do there would be someone moaning about it.

If that's the attitude you take, why bother with anything? I mean really, do anything in politics or economics and you'll piss off someone.

We're not saying Mabs and only Mabs, we're saying trying to address the long term problems rather than a short term fix that doesn't change the underlying issues regarding credit is the correct, if far less sexy and publicity friendly path.

20Cent

nesf wrote: »

If that's the attitude you take, why bother with anything? I mean really, do anything in politics or economics and you'll piss off someone.

We're not saying Mabs and only Mabs, we're saying trying to address the long term problems rather than a short term fix that doesn't change the underlying issues regarding credit is the correct, if far less sexy and publicity friendly path.

Why duplicate what a lot of others are already doing? Telling people not to get sick or have an accident doesn't sound very helpful.

death1234567

Aww I thought this was going to one of those remember how moronic and what a spectacular failure the whole occupy movemnt thing was thread. I am disappoint .

renegademaster wrote: »

Occupy Galway was the 3rd longest running occupy camp in the world with 260+ days of Occupation of public space.

Q. And what was achieved in those 260+ days.
A. Nothing.

with so little support people cracked up in the end.

Strange given that the occupy movement claimed to represent 99% of the population. Obviously they didn't represent anyone but themselves.

it was such a wasted opportunity for all those effected by the 1%* to gather and force real change,

how was it wasted? You were there for 260 days and your views garnered no support whatsoever. The only thing wasted was people's time.

Good loser

As many pointed out 'Occupy' were/are an abuse of time and space.

Incompetent and misguided from beginning to end.

Permabear

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nesf

20Cent wrote: »

Why duplicate what a lot of others are already doing? Telling people not to get sick or have an accident doesn't sound very helpful.

Really, I'm not sure if you can be serious here.

20Cent

Permabear wrote: »

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Summers withdrew himself, Obama couldn't force him to do it. He said he would be too acrimonious ie the protesters would be back out if he got the job.

As for Yellen what she will do is yet to be seen but she's said to be more main street than wall street.

20Cent

Good loser wrote: »

As many pointed out 'Occupy' were/are an abuse of time and space.

Incompetent and misguided from beginning to end.

Heard of operation Sandy?
15 written off.
Hardly a waste of time or space.

antoobrien

20Cent wrote: »

Heard of operation Sandy?

So occupy are taking credit for cold war rocket research now?:D

I saw this joke in ylyl and it applies to a lot of the attitude* that got the world to the point where occupists** thought occupying was a good idea:


* does to apply to the purchase of healthcare designed to restore health, does apply to the vast majority of plastic surgery (i.e. the vanity facelifts etc., not fixing scars etc)

** yeah I know its not a real world, but then the americans can invent normalcy.

laoch na mona

the problem was occupy was an aimless movement with no leadership structures. those who took part should be commended though because they all recognised something no neoliberal government has, they regcognised the crisis is a result of a flawed system not individual failures.

When politicans talk ****e about welfare culture it is clear they don't understand the system they support

laoch na mona

antoobrien wrote: »

I saw this joke in ylyl and it applies to a lot of the attitude* that got the world to the point where occupists** thought occupying was a good idea:


.

well the system encourages greed we are not free individuals we are controlled by relations of production and hegemony, Free will is a myth used by neoliberals to blame poor people for being poor

20Cent

antoobrien wrote: »

So occupy are taking credit for cold war rocket research now?:D

I saw this joke in ylyl and it applies to a lot of the attitude* that got the world to the point where occupists** thought occupying was a good idea:


* does to apply to the purchase of healthcare designed to restore health, does apply to the vast majority of plastic surgery (i.e. the vanity facelifts etc., not fixing scars etc)

** yeah I know its not a real world, but then the americans can invent normalcy.

So thats a no then maybe look it up.
Wasy to say only buy things you can afford but the system is set up to put people in debt just to survive.

Jonny7

20Cent wrote: »

So thats a no then maybe look it up.
Wasy to say only buy things you can afford but the system is set up to put people in debt just to survive.

The system in the US? that's undergoing reform at the moment

In Ireland you don't have to borrow to survive, my friend hasn't worked in years and he is arguably better off than most people in India

Godge

20Cent wrote: »

Heard of operation Sandy?
15 written off.
Hardly a waste of time or space.

I suppose you mean Occupy Sandy?

Their website doesn't seem to work.

20Cent

Godge wrote: »

I suppose you mean Occupy Sandy?

Their website doesn't seem to work.

This one: http://occupysandy.net/
Works for me.

A network of more than 50,000 volunteers provided over 300,000 meals, remediated over 1000 homes, and provided over a million dollars’ worth of donated supplies during and after hurricane Sandy.

20Cent

Jonny7 wrote: »

The system in the US? that's undergoing reform at the moment

In Ireland you don't have to borrow to survive, my friend hasn't worked in years and he is arguably better off than most people in India

Threads about the US. People there can work two full time jobs and still be eligible for social welfare. Keeping a roof over your head is enough to drive one into debt. Slipping on some ice and being injured can be a bankruptcy causing incident.

Jonny7

20Cent wrote: »

Threads about the US. People there can work two full time jobs and still be eligible for social welfare. Keeping a roof over your head is enough to drive one into debt. Slipping on some ice and being injured can be a bankruptcy causing incident.

Private healthcare can cover someone slipping

Healthcare is being reformed in the US currently because it's overly expensive and generally quite far behind most first world countries

Buying up random medical debt is not solving the issue, just symbolically trying to draw attention to the issue. However "drawing attention to an issue" is probably the broadest definition possible and can include anything from nailing scrotums to the street or climbing cranes in batman suits.

Essentially, whatever Occupy do, whether good or bad, they can claim to be "drawing attention to whatever issue" and hence claim some sort of purpose. VCan't really argue with that, just their methodology which I've mentioned before is typically flawed or misguided

antoobrien

20Cent wrote: »

So thats a no then maybe look it up.

20, there's a big difference between:

20Cent wrote: »

Heard of operation Sandy?

and:

20Cent wrote: »

This one: http://occupysandy.net/

Operation Sandy - the first result on google this morning - was a cold war era weapons research programme.

Permabear

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20Cent

Permabear wrote: »

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Never said anything remotely like that. Point is simple and have made it numerous times. When selecting a head of the fed the more dovish type person was selected over the bearish candidates.

20Cent

Occupy never did anything.
Then listing what has been done the argument changes to their not doing the right things.
If you are for them or not its undeniable that the movement has achieved quite a lot. I know that must cause pain to those who spent years mocking and slagging it but the facts are there. Say what you like but the argument that it achieved nothing is patently not true. In fact it looks ready to go on to bigger and greater things.

20Cent

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Never said anything remotely like that. Point is simple and have made it numerous times. When selecting a head of the fed the more dovish type person was selected over the bearish candidates.

Jonny7

20Cent wrote: »

If you are for them or not its undeniable that the movement has achieved quite a lot.

What have they achieved?

Demonstrate that an apparently "broken" system is capable of supporting people who don't work for months on end while they camp on streets in the middle of a recession?

As a keen supporter of protest I don't know of any other protest movement that has managed to irritate more people than Occupy

Watching that angsty uninformed crowd make confused and diluted arguments is on a par with watching a teenage protest angry at their parents for not letting them out late - it's on about that level

SoulandForm

The Occupy movement in Ireland was filled with weird "Freeman on the Land" Libertarian types.

20Cent

Jonny7 wrote: »

What have they achieved?

Demonstrate that an apparently "broken" system is capable of supporting people who don't work for months on end while they camp on streets in the middle of a recession?

As a keen supporter of protest I don't know of any other protest movement that has managed to irritate more people than Occupy

Watching that angsty uninformed crowd make confused and diluted arguments is on a par with watching a teenage protest angry at their parents for not letting them out late - it's on about that level

Have you read any of the thread or the op?

Iwasfrozen

SoulandForm wrote: »

The Occupy movement in Ireland was filled with weird "Freeman on the Land" Libertarian types.

Don't sully libertarians with association.

Jonny7

20Cent wrote: »

Have you read any of the thread or the op?

Yup they covered some unknown medical debt

That's not an achievement any more than the daily work of hundreds of charities

Permabear

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20Cent

Permabear wrote: »

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She hasn't even gotten the job yet so its a bit early to be writing her off give her a chance.

This is a quote from her.

“This is a very serious problem, it’s not a new problem, it’s a problem that really goes back to the 1980s, in which we have seen a huge rise in income inequality… For many, many years the middle and those below the middle [have been] actually losing absolutely. And frankly a disproportionate share of the gains, it’s not that we haven’t had pretty strong productivity growth for much of this time in the country, but a disproportionate share of those gains have gone to the top ten percent and even the top one percent. So this is an extremely difficult and to my mind very worrisome problem.”

Permabear

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20Cent

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

This is ridiculous she hasn't even started the job yet.
All points made in the previous post like the mayoral election were ignored and in advance outrage expressed at the one that hasn't even happened yet! A typical response.

In a congress hearing last week Yellen said that the Fed needs to make regulatory policing as important as monetary policy, she also said that a top priority now was to monitor the financial system, which the Fed did not adequately do before the financial crisis. Ms Yellen acknowledged that more work needs to be done to address Too Big to Fail. As far as heads of the fed go this is good news. Never said she was the occupy candidate or herald the second coming just that out of the candidates the more dovish one was selected.

Permabear

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20Cent

Permabear wrote: »

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Wall Street makes profits whatever happens. The best thing we can hope for is that the deregulation that resulted in the 2008 financial crash and the "too big to fail" issues can be tackled. It seems that Yellen is interested in doing this.

Considering she hasn't even started the job yet it is unfair to get outraged in advance of that.

Permabear

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20Cent

Permabear wrote: »

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Who are you debating with?

This is absurd the lady hasn't even started the job yet!
Instead of engaging with comments made you are just pursuing a point no one has made.

Permabear

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20Cent

Another large action taking place this Friday. Walmart employees are mobilising across the US to highlight the poor wages they are paid and how Walmart is leaching off the taxpayer to subsidise its business model. Occupy are involved in supporting this and providing training for this. Guess that's not doing anything either.

Jonny7

20Cent wrote: »

Wall Street makes profits whatever happens. The best thing we can hope for is that the deregulation that resulted in the 2008 financial crash and the "too big to fail" issues can be tackled. It seems that Yellen is interested in doing this.

It is being tackled. There is already new regulations in place and constant ongoing updates and changes. No one wants a repeat, least of all the banks and their clients.

hatrickpatrick

Jonny7 wrote: »

The system in the US? that's undergoing reform at the moment

In Ireland you don't have to borrow to survive, my friend hasn't worked in years and he is arguably better off than most people in India

The entire system of money creation is entirely centered around central bank issued debt which has interest attached, thereby ensuring that the only way to continue creating money is to perpetually create more debt. That's not a US problem, that's how the world's monetary system currently operated, and the problem is that "reform" just isn't enough. That basic system needs to go, money creation needs to stop being a game of musical chairs.

Where do you suppose the first euro came from?

The current system effectively creates scarcity where there isn't actually any real scarcity of goods or services, which is ridiculous.

Jonny7

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

The entire system of money creation is entirely centered around central bank issued debt which has interest attached, thereby ensuring that the only way to continue creating money is to perpetually create more debt. That's not a US problem, that's how the world's monetary system currently operated, and the problem is that "reform" just isn't enough. That basic system needs to go, money creation needs to stop being a game of musical chairs.

And what would you have it replaced with?

hatrickpatrick

Jonny7 wrote: »

And what would you have it replaced with?

A not for profit, public-interest driven financial system whose sole purpose is to ensure maximum trade potential and nothing else. Issue new currency without interest attached, etc. I've written about all of this in more detail in older threads, I'm merely pointing out that the system of money and debt that we use only has value because we all agree to assign value to it - we could easily choose to assign value to a completely different system if we wanted to. The current system is designed to benefit a very small elite, and the only reason it's still being used is because it's not talked about enough, in my view.

If more people realized just how currency is created and brought into circulation, I'd imagine more people would be interested in scrapping that system and redesigning it. That's what the creators of Bitcoin were after - not in any way saying they've got it right, but the basic concept of a currency that isn't controlled by vested interest is something I'm glad to see entering the mainstream.

When Occupy Dame Street was around, by far the most interesting lecture given at it was about Guernsey and the fact that they seem to have stopped using the interest-bearing-debt model of issuing new money in the early 20th century and they haven't had a serious banking crisis since.

Again I don't have all the answers, but the purpose initially is to at least get people talking about it, instead of simply accepting the status quo we've all been conditioned to accept and not to question.