Obamacare Rollout: The Political Fallout

InTheTrees

sin_city wrote: »

How's that for facts?

No.

Making some statements and calling them "facts" makes no sense.

Its the equivalent of saying "I dont agree with you, hows that for a fact?"

Where do we go from there then?

InTheTrees

Paleface wrote: »

Can someone clarify which is fact and which is fiction?

The law took effect on January 1st. And the final deadline for signing up was last Sunday.

SO you have to wonder about a lot of these "facts" that are being thrown about by the republicans.

I'll let you make your own judgement.

InTheTrees

One of the aspects of ObamaCare that terrifies the right wingers is that from now on HealthCare is no longer tied to one's job. Its not going to be a perk dolled out by your employer.

People will be able to quit their jobs without fear of losing Health Insurance.

Amerika

InTheTrees wrote: »

ObamaCare "took effect" on Jan 1st.

And you're saying that rates have increased "substantially" since then?

So in the last three months this is all happening?



Really, it sounds like more right wing scare mongering. Garbled negative anecdotes without any corroboration.

ObamaCare was signed into law in March 23, 2010. Some parts took effect immediately like the 80/20 rule in 2010 (but was actually modified to a 85/15 rule for large corporations in 2011). Other parts of ObamaCare became effective at later dates. No scare mongering... just the facts jack.

The corroboration you wanted...
http://usinsurancenet.com/answers/article/AA-00981

InTheTrees

Amerika wrote: »

ObamaCare was signed into law in March 23, 2010. Some parts took effect immediately like the 80/20 rule in 2010 (but was actually modified to a 85/15 rule for large corporations in 2011). Other parts of ObamaCare became effective at later dates. No scare mongering... just the facts jack.

Oh boy. The constant skittering around the truth is a little wearying.

SO If "signed into law" a law saying after January 1st 2015 all speed limits would be dropped.

You would take that to mean the law takes effect today would you?

Brian?

sin_city wrote: »

I mentioned the minimum wage law, increasing health costs because of government, I also mentioned the US governments venture into education(public school are a joke and the cost of college due to student loans have made it more expensive than ever), since LBJ's great society program those at the bottom of the social ladder have become poorer, the war on drugs is a disaster, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were an integral part of the housing collapse that has dogged the world economy...after the mess up what does government decide to do? Give hundreds of billions of taxpayers money to the banks that caused the mess.

How's that for facts? And you want these morons involved more in health too now? I've shown you that prices are increasing in 49 states because of Obamacare.

I'm still waiting on success of government...Central planning does not work.

This post does not contain a single fact. That's a fact.

You say government has never had a single success. Is that any government ever?

Amerika

InTheTrees wrote: »

Oh boy. The constant skittering around the truth is a little wearying.

SO If "signed into law" a law saying after January 1st 2015 all speed limits would be dropped.

You would take that to mean the law takes effect today would you?

I don't get where you are coming from. The 80/20 rule went into effect in 2010 from the law that was signed into legislation in 2010. What is so difficult to comprehend about that?

Brian?

Amerika wrote: »

I don't get where you are coming from. The 80/20 rule went into effect in 2010 from the law that was signed into legislation in 2010. What is so difficult to comprehend about that?

The Affordable Healthcare Act didn't go fully into effect until Jan 1st 2014.

Brian?

Amerika wrote: »

ObamaCare was signed into law in March 23, 2010. Some parts took effect immediately like the 80/20 rule in 2010 (but was actually modified to a 85/15 rule for large corporations in 2011). Other parts of ObamaCare became effective at later dates. No scare mongering... just the facts jack.

The corroboration you wanted...
http://usinsurancenet.com/answers/article/AA-00981

I've asked this before and never get an answer: what's your fix for healthcare? What do you think should be done? If not your own idea what is the GOP policy?

Repealing the Affordable Healthcare Act is not a policy. It's a cop out.

Amerika

Brian? wrote: »

The Affordable Healthcare Act didn't go fully into effect until Jan 1st 2014.

Yeah okay, but the 80/20 rule has been in effect since 2010. And insurance companies have had to pay back money if they didn't spend the 80% on care to the premium payers. Correct?

sin_city

Brian? wrote: »

This post does not contain a single fact. That's a fact.

Yes it does... Regarding the first fact I pointed to, blacks had lower unemployment than whites pre minimum wage and the minimum wage causes people to lose jobs.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2048659/The-minimum-wage-pushing-youth-unemployment.html

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052970203440104574402820278669840

http://www.forbes.com/2009/07/23/raising-minimum-wage-opinions-columnists-bruce-bartlett.html

http://dailycaller.com/2013/03/16/minimum-wage-responsible-for-black-unemployment-author-says-video/

Which one of my points were not facts in your opinion? I just think you don’t have much of a clue of history. I sincerely doubt you searched LBJ’s great society program, the New Deal…I doubt you even looked into Freddie and Fannie, but hey if you did, you can prove it. Have a real discussion and point of exactly where what I said is not based on fact.

sin_city

InTheTrees wrote: »

No.

Making some statements and calling them "facts" makes no sense.

Its the equivalent of saying "I dont agree with you, hows that for a fact?"

Where do we go from there then?

Call me up on my "statements"

You've posted no proof on anything...just your opinion which is purely based on emotional bias.

Just show me where one thing I said is wrong...When I say show, I mean evidence based on history, or graphs or something....you never show this.

You assume by the way that employers should be paying health care...this was only brought in during WW2 as wages were frozen and it was a way to get around increases to attract better employees.....your employer should not be involved in paying your health cover no more than he or she should be involved in paying your car insurance.


Now, please...give me some historical facts and data to show where my "Statements" are not facts.

Brian?

sin_city wrote: »

Yes it does... Regarding the first fact I pointed to, blacks had lower unemployment than whites pre minimum wage and the minimum wage causes people to lose jobs.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2048659/The-minimum-wage-pushing-youth-unemployment.html

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052970203440104574402820278669840

http://www.forbes.com/2009/07/23/raising-minimum-wage-opinions-columnists-bruce-bartlett.html

http://dailycaller.com/2013/03/16/minimum-wage-responsible-for-black-unemployment-author-says-video/

These opinion pieces. You obviously agree with them but that doesn't mean they are an unquestionable point of reference, which would make them fact.

Which one of my points were not facts in your opinion?

None of them. All opinion.

I just think you don’t have much of a clue of history. I sincerely doubt you searched LBJ’s great society program, the New Deal…I doubt you even looked into Freddie and Fannie, but hey if you did, you can prove it. Have a real discussion and point of exactly where what I said is not based on fact.

I am starting to think you don't understand the difference between a fact and opinion based on a historical fact. It's a fact that the "great society program" happened- fact. No doubt about it. You seem to feel it did more harm than good- opinion.

Brian?

Amerika wrote: »

Yeah okay, but the 80/20 rule has been in effect since 2010. And insurance companies have had to pay back money if they didn't spend the 80% on care to the premium payers. Correct?

Ok. Now your point?

Are you going to offer an alternative at all?

sin_city

Brian? wrote: »

sin_city wrote: »

Yes it does... Regarding the first fact I pointed to, blacks had lower unemployment than whites pre minimum wage and the minimum wage causes people to lose jobs.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2048659/The-minimum-wage-pushing-youth-unemployment.html

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052970203440104574402820278669840

http://www.forbes.com/2009/07/23/raising-minimum-wage-opinions-columnists-bruce-bartlett.html

http://dailycaller.com/2013/03/16/minimum-wage-responsible-for-black-unemployment-author-says-video/

These opinion pieces. You obviously agree with them but that doesn't mean they are an unquestionable point of reference, which would make them fact.



None of them. All opinion.



I am starting to think you don't understand the difference between a fact and opinion based on a historical fact. It's a fact that the "great society program" happened- fact. No doubt about it. You seem to feel it did more harm than good- opinion.

You don't have a counter argument...you just say, No, that's not right.

This article contains data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics in the US showing how young black teens went from being Less unemployed than whites to becoming far more unemployed as the decades of the last century past.

http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/the-minimum-wage-law

The minimum wage law makes it so unskilled and unexperienced labour becomes too expensive for some employees and so deprives many unskilled and unexperienced blacks(and more others) from getting their first job where they could gain skills and later earn a wage higher than the government set minimum wage.

Now, WHAT IS YOUR COUNTER ARGUMENT OTHER THAN NO THAT'S NOT RIGHT.

Where is your data and historical evidence to counter what I am saying?

Brian?

You don't have a counter argument...you just say, No, that's not right.

This article contains data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics in the US showing how young black teens went from being Less unemployed than whites to becoming far more unemployed as the decades of the last century past.

http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/the-minimum-wage-law

The minimum wage law makes it so unskilled and unexperienced labour becomes too expensive for some employees and so deprives many unskilled and unexperienced blacks(and more others) from getting their first job where they could gain skills and later earn a wage higher than the government set minimum wage.

Now, WHAT IS YOUR COUNTER ARGUMENT OTHER THAN NO THAT'S NOT RIGHT.

Where is your data and historical evidence to counter what I am saying?

I have no idea how to counter you most of the time and when I do counter with facts you simply drop the discussion and refuse to follow up. Up until now in this thread I haven't attempted to counter anything except to point out you were claiming opinions as facts.

So now we're only discussing the minimum wage?

It is my opinion that the minimum wage may contribute to higher unemployment among unskilled workers.

The problem is that any reduction in the minimum wage simply increases the amount of working poor who need social welfare to supplement their income. The working poor are already a growing demographic in the US.

The problem is not the minimum wage, it's the lack of decent jobs caused by, among other things, opening trade barriers.

The solution: Trade protectionism, greater industrial regulation, better labour laws, pro union laws and a decrease in the cost of education would be a start.

Do you want some quasi intellectual opinion pieces to back that up or is my own opinion enough?

Brian?

This page uses the word fact a lot:

http://mediamatters.org/mobile/research/2013/02/15/the-minimum-wage-myths-amp-facts/192692

This one is nicely done in a list format:

http://m.washingtonpost.com/opinions/five-myths-about-the-minimum-wage/2013/04/05/d89b5fa8-9c8f-11e2-9a79-eb5280c81c63_story.html

The author of this one looks very happy:

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/07/26/590571/top-three-myths-conservatives-use-to-oppose-increasing-the-minimum-wage/

20Cent

The real question people should be asking is how the republicans got it so wrong. Their attempts to scupper the act were unprecedented even threatening not to increase the debt ceiling. All of the predictions of disaster have turned out to be rubbish.

Paleface

20Cent wrote: »

The real question people should be asking is how the republicans got it so wrong. Their attempts to scupper the act were unprecedented even threatening not to increase the debt ceiling. All of the predictions of disaster have turned out to be rubbish.

I would suggest its due to the Tea Party hijacking the GOP and acting in a non rational manner when it comes to bipartisanship. They have become the party of no.

Brian?

20Cent wrote: »

The real question people should be asking is how the republicans got it so wrong. Their attempts to scupper the act were unprecedented even threatening not to increase the debt ceiling. All of the predictions of disaster have turned out to be rubbish.

The Democrats should be asking repeatedly what their solution is. I bet it would be a lot like Obamacare with some minor adjustments.

That's what the GOP proposed as far back as Bob Dole and latterly with Romneycare.

InTheTrees

20Cent wrote: »

Their attempts to scupper the act were unprecedented even threatening not to increase the debt ceiling.

The high point for me was when it was discovered that the official California Republican Party were running a fake ObamaCare Information site to discourage people from signing up.

Amerika

Brian? wrote: »

Ok. Now your point?

Post #49

Are you going to offer an alternative at all?

Me personally? I plan on tackling it right after I perfect the flux capacitor.

If you mean republicans, well they’ve offered at least four comprehensive alternatives to ObamaCare… The Patients’ Choice Act, The Empowering Patients First Act, The Patient OPTION Act, and The American Health Care Reform Act.

What didn’t you like about them?

20Cent

Amerika wrote: »

Post #49


Me personally? I plan on tackling it right after I perfect the flux capacitor.

If you mean republicans, well they’ve offered at least four comprehensive alternatives to ObamaCare… The Patients’ Choice Act, The Empowering Patients First Act, The Patient OPTION Act, and The American Health Care Reform Act.

What didn’t you like about them?

A quick look at them and they don't seem al that different to the ACA.

What was is about Obamacare that made them go to these unprecedented lengths to have is shut down?

Memnoch

20Cent wrote: »

A quick look at them and they don't seem al that different to the ACA.

What was is about Obamacare that made them go to these unprecedented lengths to have is shut down?

A black president who should have only been allowed one term and who should not be allowed to have any kind of historical legacy.

Even if the US must suffer, a democrat cannot be allowed to have any kind of success.

LuckyLloyd

After a rocky start, the AFA is getting into its groove and doom laden predictions seem to becoming ever more incorrect. What am I missing? Seems like uptake will be in a good place by early 2016.

Brian?

Amerika wrote: »

Post #49


Me personally? I plan on tackling it right after I perfect the flux capacitor.

If you mean republicans, well they’ve offered at least four comprehensive alternatives to ObamaCare… The Patients’ Choice Act, The Empowering Patients First Act, The Patient OPTION Act, and The American Health Care Reform Act.

What didn’t you like about them?

I'll tell you what I do like about them. They weren't far off Obamacare. They were like Kiss to Obamacare's AC/DC.

InTheTrees

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

After a rocky start, the AFA is getting into its groove and doom laden predictions seem to becoming ever more incorrect. What am I missing?

A point?

The AFA? Do you mean the American Family Association? A right wing christian organization.

And you're telling us their "predictions" are coming true?

Would you care to expand a little on that?

InTheTrees

20Cent wrote: »

What was is about Obamacare that made them go to these unprecedented lengths to have is shut down?

Good question.

If they werent handing out billions of $$ of subsidies to big business I'd have said it was some kind of libertarian ideology of non-government interference.

But honestly its more like selfishness. Or "corporatism" really, one of the major changes will be that Americans are no longer tied to a job to be able to afford Health Insurance.

Paleface

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-27074289

I appeal to the US members of this forum.

Is this fact?

Personally I think Obama is on the crest of a wave here and the GOP know it like they have known it all along!!

LuckyLloyd

InTheTrees wrote: »

A point?

The AFA? Do you mean the American Family Association? A right wing christian organization.

And you're telling us their "predictions" are coming true?

Would you care to expand a little on that?

I meant the ACA obviously. I think our positions are actually aligned!

InTheTrees

Paleface wrote: »

Personally I think Obama is on the crest of a wave here and the GOP know it like they have known it all along!!

Yes. The Republicans are seething. They really didnt want people to have affordable care.

Right now the news is all good for ObamaCare. Targets were originally to have 7 million signed up, then it was revised down to 6 due to the chaos of the rollout but now they're reporting 8 million have signed up.

Thats in addition to another three million who got coverage thru Medicare expansion, (lowering the age people get retirement health benefits).

Amerika

Paleface wrote: »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-27074289

I appeal to the US members of this forum.

Is this fact?

Personally I think Obama is on the crest of a wave here and the GOP know it like they have known it all along!!

IMO not many believe much of what President Obama says anymore. Everything seems to either need a flowchart for nuances to his words or have a caveat attached to each of his statements. How many of those who signed up actually have paid their premiums? We don’t ever get that number... Wonder why?

And the media has been starved for some good news coming out of the White House for so long that they'll stretch every mile out of this they can.

Personally... what is and is not fact will be determined if the losers in ObamaCare outvote the winners of the program come November. How many are benefiting from it and how many are hurting? Everyone has been affected by it one way or another. How many are still without insurance, and what were those numbers before we put this thing in place that has torn the country apart? What have we really gained except for higher premiums and more debt because of the government subsidies, and maybe a couple million additonal people with insurance? How many more will get notices that they will be dropped from company plans next year? And how much will everyone’s premiums rise next year because of ObamaCare?

Perhaps it’s way to early for the White House to be spiking the ball.

I am one that had to go on the exchange, as my employer dropped coverage because of ObamaCare. I pay less in monthly premiums now, but my out of pocket expenses for medical treatment has gone through the roof. Therefore it has personally cost me more than before the law took effect, even with average yearly increases. I had insurance before, and now have insurance through the exchange --- net effect zero! But it is costing me more, how do you think I feel about this president's new found glory days? I may be one of those being touted by the president as one of his so-called "success story’s", but he won’t be happy with this voter's actions come November.

InTheTrees

Amerika wrote: »

IMO not many believe much of what President Obama says anymore.

Ummm. Really?

Speaking of republican operatives, what happened to the other two who used to hang out in the "US Politics" forum posting anti-obama hate?

Its been quiet without them.

InTheTrees

Amerika wrote: »

I may be one of those being touted by the president as one of his so-called "success story’s", but he won’t be happy with this voter's actions come November.

Its the same hackned old rhetorical device as saying "I used to be a Democrat but now I've seen the light and this is how...."

:cool:

Amerika

InTheTrees wrote: »

Ummm. Really?

Speaking of republican operatives, what happened to the other two who used to hang out in the "US Politics" forum posting anti-obama hate?

Its been quiet without them.

"Republican operatives" LOL. I think that’s something better suited for the Conspiracy Theory section.

And regarding "the other two blah blah blah," well it’s not my week to watch them? Perhaps they got sick and tired of the apparent double standards on display here.

Amerika

InTheTrees wrote: »

Its the same hackned old rhetorical device as saying "I used to be a Democrat but now I've seen the light and this is how...."

:cool:

I’ve never been a Democrat. Neither were my parents when they were alive, but since their passing apparently they’ve voted Democratic ever since.

InTheTrees

Amerika wrote: »

Perhaps they got sick and tired of the apparent double standards on display here.

The sleazy republican strategy of confusing the issues of ObamaCare by intentionally putting out false information means little trust is left. Crying wolf once can work but over and over and over again is wearying.

SO you're paying way more than you were are you? Ummm.

AT this point unless you can add more detail or some documentation, why would we believe any of it? And I'm perfectly aware that it works both ways. I'm sure the mostly bi-patrisan, Irish residents reading this thread must wonder wtf is going on with the yanks.

Thats the point I'm trying to make.

Brian?

Amerika wrote: »

I’ve never been a Democrat. Neither were my parents when they were alive, but since their passing apparently they’ve voted Democratic ever since.

Really? That's a surprise.

You once told me you used to be liberal hippy in your youth and later found the light. Were you a liberal hippy who voted Republican?

Amerika

Brian? wrote: »

Really? That's a surprise.

You once told me you used to be liberal hippy in your youth and later found the light. Were you a liberal hippy who voted Republican?

Back in the old days liberal hippies didn't vote, nor register to vote. Even took my good old time to register for the draft.

FISMA

Confirming what many opposed to Obama care have been saying all along.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G790p0LcgbI

Black Swan

ObamaCare was modeled upon RomneyCare, both dysfunctional. Ironically, many Republicans and Mitt Romney supporters seem to forget that when attacking ObamaCare.