Lack of new routes at Cork airport

Mumha

Masala wrote: »

Anyone see the article in today's Examiner whereby all if the Cork politicians were asked 2 questions on Cork airport needing a simple YES or NO answer;

1. Should the debt be written off
2. Should cork be run by their own CAA

I can't post the article as I not a subscriber ( maybe another Boardsie can do it!) but was surprising the lack of appetite foy YES answers on the above. Coveney a NO on each question. Martin a bit fuzzy MAYBE ...

Interesting............ Bottom line seems politicans not up for change!!!

Michael Martin "a bit fuzzy" !!!

Name: Micheál Martin (FF)

A: The debt is the DAA’s not Cork Airport’s

B: Yes — it should have its own board but within State ownership

The taking on of the €113m debt was railroaded through by Michael Martin (YES - him !) in his role as Minister for Enterprise. The CAA board were Mehole appointees, including his long time backer/supporter Humphrey Murphy and his "boy" on the board, Chairman Joe Gantly.

The four worker-directors, Tom O’Neill, Tony O’Connell, Mary O’Halloran and Sean Mac Suibhne, joined by Alf Smiddy, voted against acceptance.

Cork Airport chief executive Pat Keohane, Don Cullinane, Humphrey Murphy, Pat Dalton, and Loretta Glucksman, in contact by phone from America, all voted in favour. Veronica Perdissatt abstained.

The tie resulted in chairman, Joe Gantly, casting the deciding vote to accept.

Enterprise Minister Micheál Martin welcomed the outcome and said he is confident the airport would remain competitive.

“My main priority is to move away from the Dublin operation and set up on our own — people would prefer less debt at the end of the day but it’s a State company and people seem to have missed that point,” he said.

Siptu official John Pearson described the vote as a “purely political act”.

“We were promised in 2003 that we would be debt-free. We bought in to that in good faith.”

beer enigma

Oasis1974 wrote: »

Plenty to do? Not sure maybe a Rugby Match? Wales is devoid of scenery compared to Scotland and England. The most common trait it has with Ireland is probably sheep farming. Twice weekly i cant see the last ability here at all.

Not sure which bit of Wales you've seen but Wales has some stunning scenery - Snowdonia National park is a real gem. If you're talking about the view on the road from Pembroke to Bristol then its all industrial but thats a tiny part. Millenium stadaium would have a good sports draw, but there's a lot of initaitives to improve trade between Wales & Ireland due to the proximity, so I'm guessing someone has done their sums.

The other point I think people are missing is that its all fine and well having the routes in Cork, but the people of Cork and surrounding have to support them. I was talking to someone last night about the Ibiza route as they go every year and their reply was 'ah yeh but Dubs only a couple of hours up the road and its a much better airport'....and they were one of those complaining about the daa.

Balmed Out

Oasis1974 wrote: »

Wales is devoid of scenery compared to Scotland and England.

Wales is far smaller then it's two neighbours but acre for acre is as scenic or better. Go to snowdonia, pembrokshire, the countless norman castles mountains and fantastic coastline.

Oasis1974

Andip wrote: »

Not sure which bit of Wales you've seen but Wales has some stunning scenery - Snowdonia National park is a real gem. If you're talking about the view on the road from Pembroke to Bristol then its all industrial but thats a tiny part. Millenium stadaium would have a good sports draw, but there's a lot of initaitives to improve trade between Wales & Ireland due to the proximity, so I'm guessing someone has done their sums.

The other point I think people are missing is that its all fine and well having the routes in Cork, but the people of Cork and surrounding have to support them. I was talking to someone last night about the Ibiza route as they go every year and their reply was 'ah yeh but Dubs only a couple of hours up the road and its a much better airport'....and they were one of those complaining about the daa.

Snowdonia is obvious draw to Wales but my point really is i'd spend my money on a flight to Glasgow or Edinburgh than Wales for the whole seeing things routine even drive to Northern Ireland would be money better spent. And i just couldnt take one of my kids dripping in vomit from some tanked up Ibiza raver or the granny being mugged in the jacks on the flight out.:D

razorblunt

Lemmy Scott wrote: »

The flight from cork -Bristol is the biggest rip off on aer lingus-120-200 euros return for an hour flight .

Same as the Edinburgh flight, crappy propeller plane too, wedged into the seat. I'll dance a jig the day Ryanair enter the Cork Edinburgh route.

lisasimpson

True people need to support the airport.id use it more if their were decent distinations.if im going long haul via heathrow i try my best to fly from cork..

.red.

razorblunt wrote: »

Same as the Edinburgh flight, crappy propeller plane too, wedged into the seat. I'll dance a jig the day Ryanair enter the Cork Edinburgh route.

Not sure what you mean by that? The seating and leg room on Stobarts aircraft are like first class compared to Ryanair. Theres a bit more noise if your seated around the engines and their a little slower but other than that their a fine aircraft.
Its also funny to see these little crappy prop planes land in cork airport when the winds are high and the bigger planes have to divert.

namloc1980

.red. wrote: »

Not sure what you mean by that? The seating and leg room on Stobarts aircraft are like first class compared to Ryanair. Theres a bit more noise if your seated around the engines and their a little slower but other than that their a fine aircraft.
Its also funny to see these little crappy prop planes land in cork airport when the winds are high and the bigger planes have to divert.

There's just a perception that propeller aircraft are inferior to jets. I know a few people who would never set foot on a propeller plane as they think they are unsafe. Irrational but there ya go.

.red.

namloc1980 wrote: »

There's just a perception that propeller aircraft are inferior to jets. I know a few people who would never set foot on a propeller plane as they think they are unsafe. Irrational but there ya go.

That and the fact that someone can be wedged into a seat on a prop plane, but yet have no problem with a seat on a jet thats, smaller and has less leg room?

thomil

razorblunt wrote: »

Same as the Edinburgh flight, crappy propeller plane too, wedged into the seat. I'll dance a jig the day Ryanair enter the Cork Edinburgh route.

Excuse me? I'm by no means a small person, very much on the contrary, and I had no issue to get into the seat of one of those aircraft, when I flew to Bristol last May. On the contrary, I consider the ATR-72, which is the type employed by Stobart Air on these routes, to be a very comfortable aircraft.
As far as the prices are concerned, I personally consider 120-200€ quite a good price for such a flight.
That being said, FlyBe coming to Cork is a good thing, it will also be an alternative for people travelling to the Bristol area, and I'll try to take that flight, when my finances allow.

razorblunt

thomil wrote: »

Excuse me? I'm by no means a small person, very much on the contrary, and I had no issue to get into the seat of one of those aircraft, when I flew to Bristol last May. On the contrary, I consider the ATR-72, which is the type employed by Stobart Air on these routes, to be a very comfortable aircraft.
As far as the prices are concerned, I personally consider 120-200€ quite a good price for such a flight.
That being said, FlyBe coming to Cork is a good thing, it will also be an alternative for people travelling to the Bristol area, and I'll try to take that flight, when my finances allow.

You're excused!

My issue is not size it's leg room. I'm 6'3 and knee locking was chronic.
Some of the planes do tend to have smaller framed seats and they are definitely more comfortable but the other ones (have no idea what type of plane they were) were a disaster.

JCX BXC

I wouldn't pay €200 for flights to my holidays, nevermind to Bristol!

roundymac

namloc1980 wrote: »

There's just a perception that propeller aircraft are inferior to jets. I know a few people who would never set foot on a propeller plane as they think they are unsafe. Irrational but there ya go.

And what's even worse, they are old fashioned.:D:D

thomil

razorblunt wrote: »

My issue is not size it's leg room. I'm 6'3 and knee locking was chronic.
Some of the planes do tend to have smaller framed seats and they are definitely more comfortable but the other ones (have no idea what type of plane they were) were a disaster.

You may be on to something as Stobart Air is currently renewing its fleet, and I got one of the new aircraft, an ATR 72-600, just a few months old. If you had the misfortune of ending up in one of the old ones, an ATR 72-200, then you would probably also have gotten the old seats.

The new aircraft are however really comfortable, I'll take those over a British Airways Airbus anytime. Now their EuroTraveller (economy) cabin, THAT is really uncomfortable.

Carnacalla wrote: »

I wouldn't pay €200 for flights to my holidays, nevermind to Bristol!

And that's part of the problem of Cork Airport, the unwillingness to accept that not all routes are economically viable on a Ryanair scale. I doubt you'll be able to fill the 189 seats of one of their Boeing 737s for the run between Bristol and Cork, and so, smaller aircraft will have to be used on these routes, like Stobart Air's ATRs. While these may be easier to fill, the costs will also be spread over fewer seats, meaning higher prices. Boycotting these flights because of the delusion that it may be overpriced is just as big a threat as political indifference.

JCX BXC

If Stobart must charge €200 per return ticket, compared to Ryanairs €40, then theres no point.

Sure Stobart have to pay taxes and charges, but they charge ridiculous money for flights.

thomil

Carnacalla wrote: »

If Stobart must charge €200 per return ticket, compared to Ryanairs €40, then theres no point.

Sure Stobart have to pay taxes and charges, but they charge ridiculous money for flights.

Ludicrous. Do you honestly believe that Ryanair can sustain their operations if they just charge 40€? Of course they can't which is why Ryanair only sells a limited contingent of these seats at that price. Check the price for a Ryanair flight, and then check the price for that same flight one or two weeks later, you'll see drastic differences, with ticket prices well in excess of 150 or 200€, and all that is before their infamous extra charges come into play. Ryanair uses this to subsidise the cheap seats that they use for advertising.
To believe that Ryanair, or any other low cost carrier, even given their lower cost base, would be able to even remain in business with ticket prices of 40€ is simply foolish. Unfortunately, that foolishness is pretty widespread. 150-200€ is a fair prices for a route like ORK-BRS, especially since it doesn't warrant the use of larger aircraft.

JCX BXC

thomil wrote: »

Ludicrous. Do you honestly believe that Ryanair can sustain their operations if they just charge 40€?

The prices tend to jump up in the last 3 days of sale, that it. Before that they are always very cheap. Stobart Air's prices always jump up very high in the days before hand too. Ryanair sustain operations very cheapily. And tbh, I dont care if they do or not as I am a consumer.

Of course they can't which is why Ryanair only sells a limited contingent of these seats at that price. Check the price for a Ryanair flight, and then check the price for that same flight one or two weeks later, you'll see drastic differences, with ticket prices well in excess of 150 or 200€,

Conpare ORK-MAN with SNN-MAN and see how often the jumps are 2 weeks in advance.

and all that is before their infamous extra charges come into play. Ryanair uses this to subsidise the cheap seats that they use for advertising.

These charges are there and available for everyone to see. If they catch you out, I have no Sympathy. Its in your interest to check this beforehand.

To believe that Ryanair, or any other low cost carrier, even given their lower cost base, would be able to even remain in business with ticket prices of 40€ is simply foolish.

Most flights out of JUNE/JULY/AUGUST start with a sale price of €40 or less. I book in advance.

Unfortunately, that foolishness is pretty widespread. 150-200€ is a fair prices for a route like ORK-BRS, especially since it doesn't warrant the use of larger aircraft.

Be careful now, your points are not filled with amazing accuracy, so I wouldnt be accusing everyone of being foolish.

beer enigma

Keep it civil lads

thomil

Carnacalla wrote: »

The prices tend to jump up in the last 3 days of sale, that it. Before that they are always very cheap.

Not really, according to my experience. One of the reasons I haven't flown Ryanair in years is that their prices on the routes that I was interested in (most ex HHN, as that's the closest Ryanair Airport to where I lived until 2012) were quite often at 179€ or higher even a month in advance. With that kind of pricing, legacy carriers become attractive again.

Carnacalla wrote: »

Stobart Air's prices always jump up very high in the days before hand too.

Not surprising, every airline engages in that kind of activity, however, the variations I've seen with Stobart Air are much less extreme than I've seen with Ryanair.

Carnacalla wrote: »

Ryanair sustain operations very cheapily. And tbh, I dont care if they do or not as I am a consumer.

Well, that is of course your right not to care about it. But then don't complain if smaller routes get dropped and Cork Airport is left at the mercy of Ryanair and Aer Lingus mainline. Besides, as I've mentioned several times already, they do not really operate much cheaper than other airlines. They may be able to bully their way to lower handling charges, etc., but the operating costs for a Boeing 737-800 are quite considerable even so. That is, once again, why low prices tickets are limited, and also why Ryanair is so "in your face" about onboard sales.

Carnacalla wrote: »

These charges are there and available for everyone to see. If they catch you out, I have no Sympathy. Its in your interest to check this beforehand.

Nice attempt at trying to discredit me instead of arguing what I said. I've flown Ryanair before, I am quite aware of their policies, and have yet to be caught out by them. They do however need to be factored into any fare discussion, as ticket prices these days only cover the seat and hand luggage, as you will probably know yourself. As far as me referring to them as infamous, it was just in reference to the public perception of these.

Carnacalla wrote: »

Most flights out of JUNE/JULY/AUGUST start with a sale price of €40 or less. I book in advance.

You may well do that, but others don't, or maybe can't, because their travel needs are too unpredictable. The fact also remains that prices do rise, and that extremely low prices can only be offered on a limited number of seats, because otherwise, airlines just wouldn't be able to operate profitably.

Carnacalla wrote: »

Compare ORK-MAN with SNN-MAN and see how often the jumps are 2 weeks in advance.

Not a route I'm interested in, and SNN doesn't really offer any destinations that interest me. The 2 weeks I mentioned were in relation to the first check, and not the departure of the flight however, just in case you didn't notice.

Carnacalla wrote: »

Be careful now, your points are not filled with amazing accuracy, so I wouldnt be accusing everyone of being foolish.

Please point out where I was wrong with my statements in this regard so far, before accusing me of being inaccurate. As far as accusing someone of being foolish, I'll be blunt with you there:

The amount of misinformation, and ignorance I've seen with regards to aviation in general, not just the pricing debate we're discussing here, doesn't really warrant any other term. This is not meant at you by the way, or even restricted to Ireland, but an observation I've made in several countries I've had the pleasure to live in. The problem here is not just the ignorance mentioned above, but also an unwillingness to learn, not so much from you, but again from a wider public.

Take the ever popular subject of delayed flights for example. Just this week I had a discussion at work with a colleague who had just returned from the continent. That girl was all "Stupid Aer Lingus, can't even get their planes to arrive on time, I wonder how they manage to fly at all...", yada yada yada. The fact that the plane may have picked up the delay hours earlier on a completely different flight due to the fact that de-icing wasn't done quickly enough or a runway may have not been cleared fast enough never really crossed her mind.
She was at least willing to listen and accept that there may have been reasons for her delay that were beyond the control of Aer Lingus, however, from my experience, that is the exception, and not the rule.
It's the same with the new routes from Cork Airport. Now that these three routes are there, you can expect the first people to pop up to claim that this was only because of the ruckus made by the Save Cork Airport Facebook campaign, and the increasing media coverage. They will completely ignore the fact that such route negotiations often take months, if not years to get the financial aspects right, as well as the operational side of things, like making sure that the prospective airline will be able to work the new flight into their schedule, have an aircraft that is in the right position at the right time to make the flight, etc.. I've already overheard some talk like that.

JCX BXC

thomil wrote: »

Not really, according to my experience. One of the reasons I haven't flown Ryanair in years is that their prices on the routes that I was interested in (most ex HHN, as that's the closest Ryanair Airport to where I lived until 2012) were quite often at 179€ or higher even a month in advance. With that kind of pricing, legacy carriers become attractive again.

At my local airport, the flights rarely jump high prices until 3/4 days before it. I often find that the prices are lowest from 10 days to 2months away.

Of course in Germany, things may have bren different to reflect the diffent booking patterns of the Germans which may be different to the Irish and English.

Not surprising, every airline engages in that kind of activity, however, the variations I've seen with Stobart Air are much less extreme than I've seen with Ryanair.

Less extreme, yes. But still largely.

Not a route I'm interested in, and SNN doesn't really offer any destinations that interest me. The 2 weeks I mentioned were in relation to the first check, and not the departure of the flight however, just in case you didn't notice.

Its irrelevant whether the route concerns you, its the only comparable route in the munster region where Stobart and Ryanair compete.

Well, that is of course your right not to care about it. But then don't complain if smaller routes get dropped and Cork Airport is left at the mercy of Ryanair and Aer Lingus mainline.

The only reason I would complain about the dropping of a route is if its one or both of the following *The route had high load factors all the time *There was no competition on the route.

Besides, as I've mentioned several times already, they do not really operate much cheaper than other airlines. They may be able to bully their way to lower handling charges, etc., but the operating costs for a Boeing 737-800 are quite considerable even so. That is, once again, why low prices tickets are limited, and also why Ryanair is so "in your face" about onboard sales.

But if I get my ticket and sit on a plane, they can try and sell me all the food, drink, magazines and oxygen they want. I will only take it if Im hungry. Its also good to note that Ryanair have a larger carry-on baggage allowance and that Stobarts inflight sales are similarly priced to ruanakr.

Nice attempt at trying to discredit me instead of arguing what I said. I've flown Ryanair before, I am quite aware of their policies, and have yet to be caught out by them. They do however need to be factored into any fare discussion, as ticket prices these days only cover the seat and hand luggage, as you will probably know yourself. As far as me referring to them as infamous, it was just in reference to the public perception of these.

Stobart have alot of charges too. Sure they wint catch you with the check in online and print your ticket charge, but the rest of them are similar.

You may well do that, but others don't, or maybe can't, because their travel needs are too unpredictable. The fact also remains that prices do rise, and that extremely low prices can only be offered on a limited number of seats, because otherwise, airlines just wouldn't be able to operate profitably.

I do that, and alot of others do. The amount of people that book a flight 3 days in advance are slimming ever so fast, as proplr smart up. Your perfectly correct though, people will always want
Flights leaving tomorrow, and that's where Stobart can be the big winner. But, stobart cannot compete with Ryanair outside of DUB. If Ryanair started a 1x daily service to MAN and BHX tomorrow, I would predict an immanent pullout from EI regional.

Please point out where I was wrong with my statements in this regard so far, before accusing me of being inaccurate.

Where you said Ryanair jump prices from 2 weeks onwards.

As far as accusing someone of being foolish, I'll be blunt with you there:
The amount of misinformation, and ignorance I've seen with regards to aviation in general, not just the pricing debate we're discussing here, doesn't really warrant any other term. This is not meant at you by the way, or even restricted to Ireland, but an observation I've made in several countries I've had the pleasure to live in. The problem here is not just the ignorance mentioned above, but also an unwillingness to learn, not so much from you, but again from a wider public.

Take the ever popular subject of delayed flights for example. Just this week I had a discussion at work with a colleague who had just returned from the continent. That girl was all "Stupid Aer Lingus, can't even get their planes to arrive on time, I wonder how they manage to fly at all...", yada yada yada. The fact that the plane may have picked up the delay hours earlier on a completely different flight due to the fact that de-icing wasn't done quickly enough or a runway may have not been cleared fast enough never really crossed her mind.
She was at least willing to listen and accept that there may have been reasons for her delay that were beyond the control of Aer Lingus, however, from my experience, that is the exception, and not the rule.
It's the same with the new routes from Cork Airport. Now that these three routes are there, you can expect the first people to pop up to claim that this was only because of the ruckus made by the Save Cork Airport Facebook campaign, and the increasing media coverage. They will completely ignore the fact that such route negotiations often take months, if not years to get the financial aspects right, as well as the operational side of things, like making sure that the prospective airline will be able to work the new flight into their schedule, have an aircraft that is in the right position at the right time to make the flight, etc.. I've already overheard some talk like that.

Im not sure that completely relates to the origanal statements, but Ill accept it. People can be ignorant, but only so much. Ryanair may not operate cheaper than Stobart, but they charge alot less most of the time.

My main point was that Stobarts charges are often very high and for no great reason. This cannot compete with the LCC's today.

thomil

Carnacalla wrote: »

My main point was that Stobarts charges are often very high and for no great reason. This cannot compete with the LCC's today.

And that's where we get down to the real heart of this debate, because there are quite a number of reasons why Stobart's charges are justifiably higher.

Their aircraft are generally smaller, the fleet consists of ATR 72 and ATR 42 turboprops, 70 and 40 seat aircraft respectively. That means that operating costs have to be spread across a smaller group of people than Ryanair or even Aer Lingus mainline are able to do. So, in order for the flight to operate at a profit, prices will have to be higher. On the other hand, that enables them to break even on routes that do not support the use of a large jet aircraft, such as ORK-BRS, or the seasonal flight from Cork to Jersey.
Add to that the fact that turboprop aircraft, well mostly their engines, are quite a bit more complicated than purebred jet engines. While this is offset by the lower fuel consumption of turboprops, operating costs do not necessarily scale in a linear fashion, meaning that an an aircraft half the size of a Boeing 737 will not automatically have half the operating costs of that aircraft.
A side benefit of using these aircraft is the ability to fly into smaller airports, or use shorter runways at existing airports, like runway 07/25 at Cork, giving Stobart Air greater operational flexibility.

razorblunt

.red. wrote: »

That and the fact that someone can be wedged into a seat on a prop plane, but yet have no problem with a seat on a jet thats, smaller and has less leg room?

Where did I say I have no problem on a "jet", I have to say the only larger plane I tend to have an issue with are Easyjet, I don't find Ryanair that seats.

The flights from Edinburgh to Cork that I've taken, where in the majority incredibly small when it came to legspace, with what now looks like a newer plane with the light blue seats it's not bad at all.

I don't have any problems with propeller planes themselves, flying that route so often you have no choice not too!

highlydebased

Price sensitivity is still a huge problem when it comes to UK routes, unfortunately for ORK and SNN if people see €120 (or more) return to Bristol or Birmingham or wherever, they will most likely look to take a €30 or €40 return flight from Dublin instead, the convenience of flying locally does not seem to be as big a draw as it should be and the hassle of bussing it to Dublin etc is overlooked for the perceived savings. There's also the perception for some about turboprop aircraft. The older Stobart aircraft have new seats also

Corholio

highlydebased wrote: »

Price sensitivity is still a huge problem when it comes to UK routes, unfortunately for ORK and SNN if people see €120 (or more) return to Bristol or Birmingham or wherever, they will most likely look to take a €30 or €40 return flight from Dublin instead, the convenience of flying locally does not seem to be as big a draw as it should be and the hassle of bussing it to Dublin etc is overlooked for the perceived savings. There's also the perception for some about turboprop aircraft. The older Stobart aircraft have new seats also

It should only be a draw if the prices were reasonably competitive, 3 or 4 times is not reasonable. Going to Dublin is a no brainer in a time when people don't have as much spare cash.

JCX BXC

highlydebased wrote: »

Price sensitivity is still a huge problem when it comes to UK routes, unfortunately for ORK and SNN

Not SNN anymore, unless its MAN, your going to ORK.

JCX BXC

For 2015, will the cork passenger numbers go up or down?

KCAccidental

It will go up due to the couple of new routes I'd say, but not by much and dependent on the present routes not being canned.

highlydebased

It's likely to remain the same with summer reduction in capacity by Ryanair and shorter seasons for some of the routes

corkonion

Willie Walsh, former Ceo of Aer Lingus and current Ceo of IAG, disagrees with his successors policy in Aer Lingus of filling planes ex Dublin by reducing availability in regional airports, he believes that this allows for competitors to gain a foothold in a competitive market and stunts the growth potential for the airline, sadly Dublin based TD's will veto the proposed takeover to Corks further detriment.

JCX BXC

corkonion wrote: »

Willie Walsh, former Ceo of Aer Lingus and current Ceo of IAG, disagrees with his successors policy in Aer Lingus of filling planes ex Dublin by reducing availability in regional airports, he believes that this allows for competitors to gain a foothold in a competitive market and stunts the growth potential for the airline, sadly Dublin based TD's will veto the proposed takeover to Corks further detriment.

Id be careful in believing that, look at BA and Iberia. They have almost no presence in Manchester and Barcelona and theres a hell of market there.