Left turning lane cutting across cycle lane

joeKel73

This is a common road design in the new traffic light junctions that are replacing roundabouts in Galway City. There's a slip road going to the left so traffic crosses over the straight-ahead cycle lane.

Who has right of way here?

There isn't a yield on the cycle lane but the lane boundary is dashed over that section.

Example - cyclist going from A to B below. The cycle lane is raised off the road before the junction but drops to the main traffic coming up to this junction.



I know to still assume drivers will cut across without indicating but would be good to know who has priority here. I met a car here today who wasn't sure, and I wasn't completely sure so we both stopped for a moment and I just waved him through.

De Bhál

My approach to go straight on would be to get down off the cycle lane earlier and move out into the traffic indicating with your arm that you're going straight ahead through that junction. Move back towards the left once through it.
I go through a similar set up without a raised cycle track going straight past the entrance to the omni centre in Santry every evening.
You have to be confident to move out that couple of feet into the line of traffic.

DaithiMC

De Bhál wrote: »

My approach to go straight on would be to get down off the cycle lane earlier and move out into the traffic indicating with your arm that you're going straight ahead through that junction. Move back towards the left once through it.
I go through a similar set up without a raised cycle track going straight past the entrance to the omni centre in Santry every evening.
You have to be confident to move out that couple of feet into the line of traffic.

Yes, this is my MO when going past a similar left turn on my commute where Pembroke Road turns off before Northumberland Road - it is in a Bus Lane but well before this I pull wide into the Bus Lane to make sure taxis or other cars a) see me and b) don't have the room to pull in on top of me.

I think its better that there is no yield sign on the road above where the solid white line becomes dashed - if it were there it would signal to motorists that they have the right of way and lead to more barging rather than behaving as they should when crossing any other left lane.

joeKel73

Pulling into the main traffic here would be fairly unsafe here because

1. The cycle lane is raised from the main road until just before this so you'd be coming down off a kerb.
2. The traffic in that lane can by very fast moving. Especially when then left slip road is empty or green at the end of it and motorists are racing to get through.

So, who has right of way; left turning motorists or straight-ahead cyclists?

joeKel73

J o e wrote: »

The traffic in that lane can by very fast moving. Especially when then left slip road is empty or green at the end of it and motorists are racing to get through.

...and I know not to push my luck and force my way across in front of racing cars. But when the slip lane is backing up and cars are moving a bit slower (or stopped!) across the cycle lane it would be good to know who has priority.

De Bhál

I find this type of junction layout very dangerous. If you cycle by a junction similar to this and your approach is to stay in the cycle lane you will get milled out of it eventually. That's a certainty.

De Bhál

J o e wrote: »

...and I know not to push my luck and force my way across in front of racing cars. But when the slip lane is backing up and cars are moving a bit slower (or stopped!) across the cycle lane it would be good to know who has priority.

I've no idea in your case as it's a raised cycle lane.

joeKel73

De Bhál wrote: »

I've no idea in your case as it's a raised cycle lane.

Well was a raised cycle lane, and dips to join the main lanes of traffic just before the junction...

Chips Lovell

If it's raised, how does traffic cross it when moving into the left turning lane?

rab!dmonkey

Traffic proceeding straight always has priority over traffic changing lanes.

From the diagram, it looks to me like the bike lane comes off the kerb before the filter lane starts, so you can simply keep on cycling straight and easily check over your shoulder for anyone who might be about to cut you off.

Feisar

I haven't a notion who has right of way here. When I'm driving I run a courtesy system parallel to the rules of the road that's main goal is to get everyone to where they are going safe and sound.

seamus

J o e wrote: »

So, who has right of way; left turning motorists or straight-ahead cyclists?

Short answer: Whoever is in front.

The same debate has been had here recently. It's a bit of a weird issue. There are two pieces of law in weird conflict:

1. A vehicle wishing to cross a traffic lane, must give way to all traffic in that lane. So if a vehicle wishes to cross a cycle lane, they must yield to all bicycles in that lane and wait for the lane to be clear before crossing it.

2. A cyclist must not overtake a vehicle on the left if that vehicle is indicating left and will turn left before the cyclist can overtake safely.

This creates an interesting problem: It's illegal for the cyclist to undertake the left-signalling vehicle, but the vehicle has to wait for the cyclist to undertake before proceeding.

In practice, the cycle lane in these cases will often have a yield symbol painted at the divergence point, but I don't know if this symbol has any legal significance.

In realistic safe use, take the lane if you plan on going straight through and if in doubt about whether a vehicle is going to turn across you, assume it will and hold back and let it turn.

I witnessed one moron this morning try to hold his line against a flatbed lorry which was clearly about to turn left (it had been indicating for ages), resulting in him having to swerve left into the turn and nearly hit a car. Of course he glared at the lorry driver like it was the driver's fault. Even if it had been the driver's fault, the intelligent course of action would have been to wait behind and not try to overtake a vehicle which weighs 5 tonnes and is clearly about to turn left.

joeKel73

Here's a dash cam from a car taking that left turn across the cycle lane so you'll see the situation a bit better;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYFClERwIwg

NamelessPhil

The Stillorgan Road in Dublin is full of these junctions and they're horrible!

Where there is a raised cycle track there is probably a yield sign at the end of it where it joins the road. That's the point at which I would look behind and check if there are any cars indicating left. If the road is clear and I then move onto the road I would have priority as I am going straight ahead and the car is changing lanes.

The car changing lanes is the one that loses priority and has to yield to traffic going straight ahead.

In contrast I have to travel Taylor's Lane hill in Rathfarnham every day. There is an on road cycle lane with a bus lane beside it at the top of the hill there is a left lane. There is no yield sign on the cycle track that goes straight ahead. I have never had a problem with cars trying to take me out of it probably because they have to cross a bus lane first to change lanes. I still perform the usual checks where the road splits just in case.

seamus

J o e wrote: »

Here's a dash cam from a car taking that left turn across the cycle lane so you'll see the situation a bit better;

That double-fun, the cycle lane switches from off- to on-road at the exact same time that it splits.

This is a perfect example of how road designers give zero consideration to the practical aspects of cycle lanes. Drivers will actually not see a cyclist on an off-road lane. Because the cyclist is not on the road, they will be subconsciously disregarded, and so a left-turning driver won't even consider that there might be cyclists come up behind them.

Solution: Disregard the cycle lane and ride on the road. You can't be ignored then.

joeKel73

seamus wrote: »

Solution: Disregard the cycle lane and ride on the road. You can't be ignored then.

The cycle lane and road stretch for over 1km before this, over the Quincentenary Bridge. Cycling on the fast-moving main road instead of the cycle lane for that stretch would be pretty dangerous and there'd be a lot of angry motorists willing to knock me back onto the cycle lane via their bonnet.

And joining just before the junction is still dangerous as cars are still sweeping left at a fair speed and definitely wouldn't expect a cyclist to come down off the raised lane.

Beasty

There's an unbroken on-road white line bordering the cycle lane for about 20m or so before it becomes unbroken - only there can the motor vehicle cut across, but they must yield to any cyclist in that lane - a cyclist in that lane clearly has right of way and a motorist must not overtake and cut back across unless it is safe to do so

galwaycyclist

J o e I am afraid the Irish law in this case is a bit of a mess.

seamus wrote: »

Short answer: Whoever is in front.

The same debate has been had here recently. It's a bit of a weird issue. There are two pieces of law in weird conflict:

1. A vehicle wishing to cross a traffic lane, must give way to all traffic in that lane. So if a vehicle wishes to cross a cycle lane, they must yield to all bicycles in that lane and wait for the lane to be clear before crossing it.

It is not established that the cycle lane is a traffic lane as it comes outside the definitions of traffic lane stated in the regulations.

There is also nothing in the regulations that states that drivers crossing cycle lanes or cycle tracks must yield to cyclists.

Does the law on overtaking on the left apply to a vehicle that looks like it is in a different lane?

Edit: There is a more involved discussion from a previous thread here

The law on these things in this country is a mess. Whether its down to malice, incompetence or hidden agendas is anyones guess.

Beasty

To be clear, the cyclist is on road and there is an unbroken white line before the junction. The motorist is overtaking the cyclist and turning left. They can only do so if it's safe, which means them should be able to get past the cyclist and then cut over to the turning lane on the left without endangering the cyclist. These are basic traffic rules and I don't think there's anything confusing or "messy" about the situation

galwaycyclist

Beasty wrote: »

These are basic traffic rules

So where are they stated with regard to cycle tracks? Evidence please.

Beasty

It's on the road - you don't need to refer to "cycle tracks" at all - just look at basic road law

MadYaker

I drive in Galway a lot, I hate these cycle lanes. I don't know who has right of way but I always check my mirrors before turning and if there is a cyclist I'll let them go.

galwaycyclist

Beasty wrote: »

It's on the road - you don't need to refer to "cycle tracks" at all - just look at basic road law

So now you are purporting yourself as someone who can offer legal advice to others without reference to the law or the definitions contained in the law?

tomasrojo

Looking at the video clip, it does seem to be a cycle track, albeit on the road at the point of maximum contention. Whether cycle tracks (as we seem to call all cycling infrastructure) are actual separate lanes in law does confuse me, I have to say.

Quite apart from theory, in practice I would treat this as a Yield scenario for the cyclist. Signal right as you approach the junction and see whether traffic behind is going to let you proceed. That feel like a safe approach to me.

joeKel73

tomasrojo wrote: »

Quite apart from theory, in practice I would treat this as a Yield scenario for the cyclist.

Yes from a practical point of view I'll be very cautious of traffic coming across. But unfortunately I go through 3 layouts the same as this on my work day commute, so over 700 times a year... so I'm highly likely to have an incident at some stage with a non-indicating motorist cutting across me and slowing down suddenly. When that happens it will be good to know where I stand (if still standing).

DaithiMC

tomasrojo wrote: »

Whether cycle tracks (as we seem to call all cycling infrastructure) are actual separate lanes in law does confuse me, I have to say.

As a motorist I treat continuous white lines and dashed lines as the Rules of the Road direct me to. I don't change the premise of this if I need to cross a cycle lane - or into a Bus Lane, which for the most part are continuous white lines. Its the same on the bike - thou shalt not cross unless its dashed (I recognise that the mandatory status of cycle lanes has been done away with but in general if I'm on the road and not in the cycle lane and the cycle lane is bounded by a continuous white line I won't cross it, and vice versa when I am in the cycle lane.

In relation to the junctions, well then it is a case of applying this logic together with a continuous wariness of what's around and an understanding of the unwritten rule of "might is right" when it comes to avoiding collisions.

MadYaker

I'm always afraid that some day I'll forget to check my mirror and end up nailing some cyclist.

tomasrojo

DaithiMC wrote: »

As a motorist I treat continuous white lines and dashed lines as the Rules of the Road direct me to. I don't change the premise of this if I need to cross a cycle lane - or into a Bus Lane, which for the most part are continuous white lines. Its the same on the bike - thou shalt not cross unless its dashed (I recognise that the mandatory status of cycle lanes has been done away with but in general if I'm on the road and not in the cycle lane and the cycle lane is bounded by a continuous white line I won't cross it, and vice versa when I am in the cycle lane.

In relation to the junctions, well then it is a case of applying this logic together with a continuous wariness of what's around and an understanding of the unwritten rule of "might is right" when it comes to avoiding collisions.

But there are cycle lanes that are "bundled" into a standard traffic lane, and motorists have no choice but to drive "in the cycle lane". It's confusing.

Stephen_C

tomasrojo wrote: »

But there are cycle lanes that are "bundled" into a standard traffic lane, and motorists have no choice but to drive "in the cycle lane". It's confusing.

Generally where cycle lanes are "bundled" into a traffic lane, where there is really only room for a car, they will have a dashed line which allows the car to drive in them if they are clear.

I'd be of the view that if there is no yield sign where you leave the raised section of cycle track then it is considered to be another straight ahead traffic lane once it becomes part of the road and normal rules of the road apply. i.e cars can only cross it when it is clear, cyclists have right of way.

With regards the rule mentioned before about cyclist not being allowed to undertake cars that are indicating left, I would interpret that as in the scenario where there is no cycle lane to the left of traffic or where the cycle lane is bundled and hence the car is already driving in it and the cyclist is filtering up the left side of traffic. In a situation where there is a clearly defined cycle lane I would expect the car to check for cyclists on their inside as they would when changing lanes.

Stheno

MadYaker wrote: »

I'm always afraid that some day I'll forget to check my mirror and end up nailing some cyclist.

Same here, I've two of those junctions every day on my drive into work

tomasrojo wrote: »

But there are cycle lanes that are "bundled" into a standard traffic lane, and motorists have no choice but to drive "in the cycle lane". It's confusing.

Yep also have this at one junction, the cycle lane is literally a third of the traffic lane and there is no room to move.

Stephen_C

I'd also add that I much prefer the layout above to some of the ones in Dublin where the cycle lane going straight ahead is kept to the left of a left hand filter lane right up to the traffic lights. Especially in situations where the traffic going straight has a red light and the filter is green.

A good example where both these scenarios can be found is on opposite sides of the road outside the Goat pub in Goatstown. Heading inbound the cycle lane moves to the right of the left filter lane and is very easy to negotiate. Heading outbound the cycle lane stays to the left of the filter for the Kilmacud Rd and is an absolute nightmare. I actually move out into the straight ahead traffic lane on this stretch to stay right of the filter lane.