The Manup campaign

K-9

pharmaton wrote: »

This is why boards can be a pain in the hole. The populaton here is overwhelmingly male (80%) so any topic that concerns female issues generally gets a whatabout response. I tend not to comment when it happens but I don't think boards will ever be somewhere female issues will be permitted to be discussed in a productive nature, way too many men waiting to pull the feminazi card when they arise. A little piece of me dies on the inside everytime.

In fairness it works the other way round as well, that's bound to happen when there are threads/campaigns about one sex, don't ever click on threads about Northern Ireland if you hate whataboutery!

Anyway, I think the time has long gone that DV campaigns was framed in this way. It effects both sexes and I don't understand why male victims rarely get much coverage.

Somebody mentioned depression earlier, and we've seen great coverage of depression lately, mostly seems to be men going public with it too and it's great to see that stigma dissolving away. Campaigns about depression don't focus on one sex so I can't fathom why these do. Another stigma that needs to get broken.

Czarcasm

tritium wrote: »

Not really, in general the funding for such surveys or thr delivery of such surveys comes from a set if groups who cannot be impartial given thier mandate. There was an interesting observation ( ill try to find it when i get some space) around the 2005survey on crime and violence quoted previously on this thread that essentially boiled down to "previous studies narrowed the range to exclude males"

And yet you'll still put your faith in statistics?

Nope, they generally use the same, somewhat flawed, definitions. Otherwise they'd struggle to get any credibility or airtime. Hard to estimate what the impact of broadening the definition would be as a result.

Emotive issues ALWAYS get airtime, and the more sensational spin the particular stakeholders can inject into the reports, well, there aren't too many are going to question the statistics. I would though, much as I hate statistics and reports, I still know how to drill down into them.

And I can only say that pretty much every piece of statistical data that has looked in a remotely unbiased way at this issue says you're wrong. Thats not my gut feel, that a scientifically based methodological assessment and with respect, even allowing for agendas in there, I know which of the two choices I'll be inclined to believe. Do you really believe your snapshot of experience is more rigorous than all of that data?

Really tritium? Because that sounds like your gut feel to me, with a healthy dose of arse covering. I don't believe at all either that my snapshot of experience is more rigorous than all the scientific data, that's why I've read the statistics and reports from a number of different organisations including the report released by AMEN a couple of weeks ago (I can't link directly as I'm on mobile and can't copy the direct link, but you can download the PDF from the website.

Though I'd also note that given the underreporting and shame/ stigma still associated with male victims its hardly surprising to have the perception you have. Male victims are very much in the place of female victims 20+ years ago with little hope of being believed or supported in many areas of official Ireland.

Ehh? tritium come on now, you've just handed me my ass about my ill informed perception, and then you come out with that? 17 years ago reporting male rape got filed away in the "fcuk me that was awkward" files, never to be followed up on. I can at least reassure you that nowadays that is certainly not the case, despite the commonly held perception you're perpetuating. It's THAT perception that discourages men from coming forward to report female on male domestic violence. The reality however is very different.

Maybe you could give me your definition so- I'm happy to work to that for the purposes of this discussion, as to be honest, I don't have a lot of time for an agenda driven version that as you say, considers saying boo to someone to be abuse,albeit only if its a male doing it

Eesh, we don't have all night tritium, I don't do a spectrum that fits neatly into any statistical data because I take into account ALL the factors in each individual case. Statistics and spectrums discard or ignore information that's considered irrelevant. For me, everything is relevant.

Sorry but I have to call you on.this one. Yes its pushing an agenda. However its not about human error and interpretation. Historically its been willful misrepresentation. When you have a senior member of amnesty international in Ireland go on tv a few years ago and describe the issue if male victims of domestic violence as "beneath them" you get a feel for how inclusive this agenda really is.

Come on now tritium, we have posters quoting stats from eight year old out of date data, and now you're using one gob****es flippant remark from a couple of years ago to say that's the pervasive attitude towards male victims of domestic violence in Ireland in 2013? Fairness now, Irish society has seen a lot of changes since 2005.

The Dom

The Dom wrote: »

It's beyond you? Really?

Domestic abuse effects and affects both sexes and the point they are just trying to make is that if there is going to be a campaign that attempts to reduce it, well then they shouldn't be singling out one sex, they should be targeting both of them.

It's not them taking one whole issue and then singling out men. It's them taking the issue of domestic violence by males and dealing with that rather than trying to reach the entire issue of domestic violence.

Why do we have HIV initiatives and contraceptive supplies in Africa? Are we suggesting that all Africans have HIV? That Europeans don't? No, we're just looking at something that's an issue and then tackling it. Jesus, if you think that having your gender in any way addressed in relation to any issue is sexist, then you're lucky you haven't had to deal with any really damaging sexism in your life.

IvySlayer

Yellow121 wrote: »

I don't know why people are making such a big deal about this. Alright they could have said everyone should take a look at themselves with regard to abuse but the facts are that it's mostly men who commit these crimes. I'm not sure about the exact figures in Ireland but here's some from America:
A study of over 100 colleges in America found that 99% of rapes were committed by men.
One in four women (25%) has experienced domestic violence in her lifetime.

Also I don't like how men get very aggressive about this topic, it's not aimed at every man. You even get banned from the gentlemens club on this forum for quoting the statistics I have above.

Any links to this study? Or can we all make figures up now

This 'Manup' campaign is a piece of **** btw

It's a disgusting notion that assumes only one gender is capable of violence. It's a sexist campaign and I hope it gets shut down.

poeticseraphim

IvySlayer wrote: »

Any links to this study? Or can we all make figures up now

This 'Manup' campaign is a piece of **** btw

It's a disgusting notion that assumes only one gender is capable of violence. I's a sexist campaign and I hope it gets shut down.

It's a sexist campaign and I hope it gets shut down.

Of all the campaigns you want shut down you pick one that is against violence towards women and children?
Oh hell no.

Really you want to go there?

Firstly it's strange that this is the only 'sexist' campaign you notice out of the plethora of sexist rubbish out there.

It is so weird that men cannot seem to stand 5 mins of perceived sexism and then call women moaners for becoming frustrated at vast eons of it.

Secondly it is not sexist. It never suggests that violence only happens towards women. Infact

Most men celebrate and respect women – they don’t control them. Good men protect and care for children. With MAN UP, men and women are proudly standing up and declaring zero tolerance on violence against women in Ireland.

It is celebrating the honor of most men. It acknowledges that most men DO NOT hit or control women. What is sexist about that?

If you have never hit a woman ..you da **** ..you da man...you're a real man. What about that do you disagree with? It says if you had an argument with your spouse and kept it under control well done you are a real man.

It is celebrating the men who would never dream of being violent and calling them to action. It is calling the majority of men to action on this particular dynamic of domestic abuse because in this niche of men hitting women their involvement in powerful. And they are using it in a way that empowers men and does not belittle them.

While domestic, sexual and gender-based violence have recently emerged as an increasingly important topics both in Ireland and in the international community, they have been framed principally with respect to violence against women, particularly sexual violence. These abuses were portrayed simply as cases of male perpetrators and female victims. However, it is now widely accepted in Ireland that both men and women can be victims and perpetrators of violence in the home.
Considerable progress has also been made in the area of research over the past number of years. We now know a lot more about the gender prevalence of domestic violence than we did at that time. Watson and Parsons (2005) definitive piece of research on domestic violence carried out for the National Crime Council found that:


• 15% of women and 6% of men suffer severe domestic abuse
• 29% of women and 26% of men suffer domestic abuse when severe abuse and minor incidents are combined
• 13% of women and 13% of men suffer physical abuse or minor physical incidents and
• 29% of women (1 in 3) and only 5% of men (1 in 20) report to the Gardaí.

The study suggested that in the region of 88,000 men and 213,000 women in Ireland have been severely abused by a partner at some point in their lives.
While, at first glance, the above seems to suggest that women and men experience similar levels of domestic abuse, one must bear in mind that the impact and severity of abuse experienced by women is much greater than that by men particularly for more severe behaviours. That said, men, like women, deserve protection against these abuses.

http://www.cosc.ie/en/COSC/Pages/WP09000005

It is a gender specific targeted campaign. It does NOT stereoptype men as abusers infact it specifically says MOST MEN DON'T WOMEN ...IT ACTUALLY STATES THIS


Yes women hit men....it is horrific.

But the ration and reasons of why women hit men and why men hit women are different. It is not a competition. The campaign will have been designed by professional psychologists with aims.

The rational of a man who hits women is often different to that of a woman who hits men. That is why the campaigns are different. The rationale of men who hit women if different to the rationale of women who hit men. That is why the campaign is different.

If you see a campaign that praises the honor of most men and has faith in their call to action in defense of what is right as sexist against men then i think your thinking is dysfunctional.

There is nothing about the campaign that suggests violence towards men does not happen. It is simply a campaign targeting violence against women.



How you got 'sexist and disgusting' from this campaign I have no idea ...

It specifically states most men DO NOT HIT OR CONTROL WOMEN...ffs..how is that sexist?

Most men celebrate and respect women – they don’t control them. Good men protect and care for children. With MAN UP, men and women are proudly standing up and declaring zero tolerance on violence against women in Ireland.

Where is the sexism??? Most men respect women ???? Good men protect and care for children??? These are all praising men no???

You got from this they were giving the green light to women kicking the **** out of their partners how exactly?

It actually affirms men and praises them. It actually has a section to do with gender based violence too if you search the site.




And if women complained about a sexist campaign (of which there are many) it would be all 'feminazi's stole my icecream' and 'what about freedom of speech this and that'....

Of all the campaigns to wish get shut down you want this??
Grow up.

The bottom line is Men and Women are not empowering themselves when they hit their partners intentionally, but simply reaffirming their lack of power in a situation they can no longer control.

Pushtrak

poeticseraphim wrote: »

Yes women hit men....it is horrific.

There isn't just an omission of domestic abuse of men by women, there is also man on man and woman on woman. Would it be a poor decision for Safe Ireland to target domestic violence, and not domestic violence + criteria A?

marshbaboon

Rape is bad?!

............................. ****...

tritium

Czarcasm wrote: »

And yet you'll still put your faith in statistics?

Not really sure of your point C: if you're asking if I prefer a large body of data to one off speculation then yes I do. I also know enough about methodology to disregard intentionally biased work

Emotive issues ALWAYS get airtime, and the more sensational spin the particular stakeholders can inject into the reports, well, there aren't too many are going to question the statistics. I would though, much as I hate statistics and reports, I still know how to drill down into them.

Really, always. Ask yourself how long its taken to get airtime for any of the major social scandals of the last fifty years. The reality is that there a changing of perception often needed.

Really tritium? Because that sounds like your gut feel to me, with a healthy dose of arse covering. I don't believe at all either that my snapshot of experience is more rigorous than all the scientific data, that's why I've read the statistics and reports from a number of different organisations including the report released by AMEN a couple of weeks ago (I can't link directly as I'm on mobile and can't copy the direct link, but you can download the PDF from the website.

I think we differ as to who is doing the arse covering here. You've read and presumably critically assessed the statistics but in spite of this you place greater faith in your opinion that this is a predominantly male perpetrated issue?

Ehh? tritium come on now, you've just handed me my ass about my ill informed perception, and then you come out with that? 17 years ago reporting male rape got filed away in the "fcuk me that was awkward" files, never to be followed up on. I can at least reassure you that nowadays that is certainly not the case, despite the commonly held perception you're perpetuating. It's THAT perception that discourages men from coming forward to report female on male domestic violence. The reality however is very different.

Do you think the victims feel that way? Do you think that the on the ground resources react that?

Eesh, we don't have all night tritium, I don't do a spectrum that fits neatly into any statistical data because I take into account ALL the factors in each individual case. Statistics and spectrums discard or ignore information that's considered irrelevant. For me, everything is relevant.

Sounds like suiting yourself. By that criteria you can put anything in or out. By that criteria you can believe any stat you want as perception is king.....

Come on now tritium, we have posters quoting stats from eight year old out of date data, and now you're using one gob****es flippant remark from a couple of years ago to say that's the pervasive attitude towards male victims of domestic violence in Ireland in 2013? Fairness now, Irish society has seen a lot of changes since 2005.

So counter point me with a comment that official Ireland sees male domestic violence as as big an issue as female domestic violence. Tell me why a society that cares so much has so different s funding scale for two effectively equal scale issues for example? We can tell ourselves we're progressive all we like, but we still don't give resources on any real scale to male victims.

constance tench

Three Irish gender neutral surveys were carried out by:

The Marriage and Relationship Counselling Service (MRCS)
Accord
A study for the Department of Health and Children

The MRCS study found that domestic violence between couples tends to be mutual in a third of the cases (33%), female-perpetrated in four out ten couples (42%) and male-perpetrated in a quarter of couples (25%).


The Accord study found that where domestic Violence occurs, (46%) involved mutual violence; in (30%) of cases it was perpetrated by women only and in (24%) by men only.

The Department of Health study found, where domestic violence occurs, (50%) was mutual with the remainder divided equally between women-only and men-only perpetration.

These findings reflect the results of all independent two-sex studies carried out world-wide

http://www.uspi.ie/DomesticAbuse.php

clairefontaine

Jonny Blaze wrote: »

Point of fact, more women kill their own children than men..

Step children living with a step parent are 100 more times to be killed (as in beaten to death) than biological children, by a step parent (step father). Needless to say outside of fatality they also experience higher much higher rates of injury.

Most of the perpetrators are step fathers but obviously that is because most children live with their mothers and step fathers. And not with step mothers and biological fathers.

http://www.cep.ucsb.edu/buller/cinderella%20effect%20facts.pdf

https://www.djoef-forlag.dk/services/samf/samfdocs/2002/2002_4/samf_2002_4_6.pdf

hatrickpatrick

Czarcasm wrote: »

Patrick it's not humanly possible to care equally or to be equally outraged even at certain issues, even selectively based on certain criteria, it doesn't make a person a hypocrite, it just means they're human.

Of course your guilt tripping premise only works too with those who see being a hypocrite as being a bad thing. I'll bet I could think of a couple of issues you care more about than others, but I'm not going to think any the worse of you for it because I understand it isn't humanly possible to care about every issue that affects humanity.

I'm not sure you understood my post. I wasn't implying that one should care about every single issue in the world, but what I was implying is that if one cares about an issue, one cares about an issue. If one cares about an issue but only when one particular demographic is the victim of it[/b], then one is most certainly a hypocrite.

Again: Supposing I put billboards saying "White people in the West are sometimes attacked by Muslim terrorists - don't be that Muslim!" - would you agree that I would deserve the massive sh!tstorm which would then be directed at me?

hatrickpatrick

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

People can't support every cause in order to seem consistent. This only ever gets thrown at feminists. If anything it's sometimes a bit off-putting when a group piggybacks on other causes.

Once again: It's not about supporting separate causes - there's nothing wrong with that - it's about supporting a cause but only supporting it when one particular demographic is involved. That's inherently wrong. All human beings deserve equal treatment.

Czarcasm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I'm not sure you understood my post. I wasn't implying that one should care about every single issue in the world, but what I was implying is that if one cares about an issue, one cares about an issue. If one cares about an issue but only when one particular demographic is the victim of it[/b], then one is most certainly a hypocrite.

Again: Supposing I put billboards saying "White people in the West are sometimes attacked by Muslim terrorists - don't be that Muslim!" - would you agree that I would deserve the massive sh!tstorm which would then be directed at me?

I understand what you're saying Patrick, and I can understand why you'd say it was hypocritical, I know myself I'm rampantly sexist as I do care more about female victims of domestic violence and abuse than I do male victims of domestic violence and abuse. The reason for that, it's one I can't really put my finger on, or one that at least I can't articulate very well.

Take for example the phrase itself on it's own - "domestic violence", implies a married couple knocking seven colours out of each other, but that's not always the case, and stats that quote say "mutual abuse", you don't know is that the man psychologically manipulating the female, and she gives him a black eye, or vice versa; they're both considered valid under the umbrella term "domestic violence", but one is more visible, and heal faster, whereas the other could be more insidious and mentally damaging in the long term.

What criteria allow you to choose which to care more about? They're both human beings, but a person can't help the way they feel, so they may feel empathy more towards one than the other, and that's why I personally while I may get involved in different charities and organisations and stuff, I'll try to avoid getting mixed up in the politics of it, the bureaucracy in these organisations is more than enough of a head melt.

To address your example though, I wouldn't take you out the back and shoot you for it, I could see where you're coming from, and obviously though I'm not muslim myself, I imagine that the majority of muslims wouldn't take issue with it because they wouldn't take the message personally. They're not so insecure in themselves that they feel slighted by a campaign that they don't feel is aimed at them, so they're not going to take offence on behalf of all muslims. There will be some muslims though that will miss the point completely due to their own insecurities and will take offence on behalf of all muslims. They don't speak for all muslims though, in the same way as those men objecting to a domestic violence campaign backed by an amalgamation of women's groups, don't speak for all men. Most men will get the idea, they're not particularly concerned that some tit didn't think for more than ten seconds when trying to come up with a header that'd make an impact, and failing miserably with the tired old "man up" cliche that people really aren't going to give two fcuks about. They should've been told to grow up!

The worst thing that happened here wasn't sexism. It was that a group of people with their heads up their ass pissed money down the drain on a bad campaign that was an attempt to raise awareness of an issue. They wasted precious resources that would've been better spent on funding providing resources for the people they're actually trying to help.

Czarcasm

tritium wrote: »

Not really sure of your point C: if you're asking if I prefer a large body of data to one off speculation then yes I do. I also know enough about methodology to disregard intentionally biased work

My point was trutium that even by your own admission, data can be manipulated to say whatever the comissioning body wants them to say - they can leave out stuff they don't consider relevant, and spin the numbers and use fuzzy language to support their hypotheses.

Really, always. Ask yourself how long its taken to get airtime for any of the major social scandals of the last fifty years. The reality is that there a changing of perception often needed.

I'd say not so much a change of perception, but more promotion and awareness needs to be created. I mean, I see it all the time in organisations - these statistics and reports are used to get funding, but some organisations will use them in public campaigns - more spin is required. I've tried to chase down the source of some of these reports and statistics, to see where they're getting them from, but I'm brick walled more times, because these organisations don't do trust and accountability very well. They'd rather you just accepted the statistics at face value as they are presented.

The reason why one issue gets more airtime than another is really two fold - Some organisations are better funded than others, and apathy among the general public combined with a lack of awareness of the scale of an issue, means the issue isn't going to generate much interest. If you want to generate interest in the issue of male victims of domestic violence and abuse, then you need to get people interested. You're at nothing saying "but it happens to men too" off the back of a campaign for women. You need to make the issue of male victims of domestic violence more visible. That takes more than a mere handful of men, which is exactly what AMEN is - merely a handful of men.

I think we differ as to who is doing the arse covering here. You've read and presumably critically assessed the statistics but in spite of this you place greater faith in your opinion that this is a predominantly male perpetrated issue?

Not at all, like I said tritium - I've investigated some of the statistics thoroughly and saw the methodology they used and the way some of the statistics were gathered, so it's not in spite of the statistics, but rather because of them, and because I wouldn't accept them at face value. Not only is domestic violence a male perpetrated issue, but the incidents of male victims of domestic violence and abuse are nowhere near as prevalent as female victims of domestic abuse, and that's not even getting into the length of time the abuse is carried out - sometimes it can be prolonged over years.

Statistical methods can only account for so many variables and tolerances, even including the issue of under-reporting by male victims of domestic violence and abuse. But you can only jazzy up the figures so much to say "well under-reporting among men accounts for the discrepancy, so really the figures for both sexes are the same". I mean, you could spin it better, but the reality is still that men themselves really aren't that pushed about male victims of domestic violence.

Do you think the victims feel that way? Do you think that the on the ground resources react that?

I DO think that male victims of domestic violence still think that the "fcuk me that was awkward" files still exist, and the other barrier to preventing them from reporting the issue is their own pride, their sense that "they can handle it, they don't need outside help, they don't want people to know". Yes there is shame and stigma attached, but there's also a lack of awareness attached that there are places they can go to get help. Hell even talking to their GP is a start. But most men won't do that, and so the lack of resources reflects that unwillingness to promote the issue. It's basically if people aren't aware of an issue or they aren't made to care about an issue, then it gets ignored, which means it doesn't get any funding to combat the issue.

Just look at mental health as an example of an issue that's only now getting any serious attention and funding, because even though it's been around forever, people are only now beginning to become more aware of it, and the funding to combat the issue is slowly starting to trickle in to organisations to provide resources to tackle the issue. These organisations still aren't doing enough to promote themselves though IMO.

Sounds like suiting yourself. By that criteria you can put anything in or out. By that criteria you can believe any stat you want as perception is king.....

Well yes, of course I'm suiting myself tritium because like I said - I don't like getting bogged down in politics and "my cause is better than your cause" sort of nonsense, I hate the bureaucracy and some of the criteria these organisations set down (I can think of one in particular where they won't take you on as a "client" (jesus I hate that word!) unless you're sober at least two months, another organisation where if you're experiencing an issue they'll do an interview before deciding whether to take you on as a "client" or not), I mean, as far as I'm concerned - if people come to you asking for help, you do your damnest to help them, you don't turn them away because you feel they don't suit the profile!

So counter point me with a comment that official Ireland sees male domestic violence as as big an issue as female domestic violence. Tell me why a society that cares so much has so different s funding scale for two effectively equal scale issues for example? We can tell ourselves we're progressive all we like, but we still don't give resources on any real scale to male victims.

I can't counter your point trivium, all I can say is that the authorities such as the Gardai DO take male victims of domestic violence seriously. There are some organisations that do also, the Rape Crisis Network being one of them. But the disparity in funding IS unfortunately down to public lack of awareness coupled with apathy - people just don't see, or don't experience, or simply just don't care enough about the issue of male domestic violence unless you can actually demonstrate that it IS as prevalent as you suggest it is in equal terms. The resources will go to issues with the biggest impact on society. Male victims of domestic violence don't want to see themselves that way, so they aren't as visible in society.

Is it wrong? Certainly.

Is it preventable? Certainly.

Is it easy to change people's attidudes? Certainly not.

And that's something no amount of quick and punchy statistics nor campaign headlines will do. You have to get talking to people and make them aware and give them a reason to care.

"It happens to men too", just isn't good enough.

The Dom

true-or-false wrote: »

It's not them taking one whole issue and then singling out men.

Yes it is.

It's them taking the issue of domestic violence by males and dealing with that rather than trying to reach the entire issue of domestic violence.

Which is: them-taking-one-whole-issue-and-then-singling-out-men.

Why do we have HIV initiatives and contraceptive supplies in Africa? Are we suggesting that all Africans have HIV? That Europeans don't?

That analogy would only make sense if these ads were put up in places that were only frequented by men, like gent's toilets and the like but even then, unless there was similar ads in Ladies toilets telling them to quit beating men and kids, I would still be opposed to it.

No, we're just looking at something that's an issue and then tackling it.

Just because you use the word 'just' doesn't mean that what you are referring to is a trivial, harmless act.

"We just don't want women voting".

See.

Jesus, IF YOU think that having your gender in any way addressed in relation to any issue is sexist, then you're lucky you haven't had to deal with any really damaging sexism in your life.

Well, it's good that I don't then, isn't it.

Czarcasm

The Dom wrote: »

That analogy would only make sense if these ads were put up in places that were only frequented by men, like gent's toilets and the like but even then, unless there was similar ads in Ladies toilets telling them to quit beating men and kids, I would still be opposed to it.

Just because you use the word 'just' doesn't mean that what you are referring to is a trivial, harmless act.

And yet here you are trivialising a campaign about domestic violence perpetrated by men against women based on your perception that it's sexist.

Way to miss the point spectacularly.

Yellow121

I find it kinda sick that men are against this campaign. It may not be the best name for it but surely everyone supports the aims of it. The campaign calls for an end to the abuse of women and children. Abuse includes sexual assault. No one can deny it's mainly men who abuse women and children.
The campaign mighten't have much success but why be against it?

Pushtrak

Yellow121 wrote: »

I find it kinda sick that men are against this campaign. It may not be the best name for it but surely everyone supports the aims of it.

Reading this, you come across as someone who only sees that people have an objection of some form to a campaign that everyone should be on board with. You don't seem to have read, or if you have read, and understanding of the focus of the criticism.

Everyone supports the aims of a organisation being against domestic abuse.

The campaign calls for an end to the abuse of women and children. Abuse includes sexual assault. No one can deny it's mainly men who abuse women and children.

Did you read the thread? There have been stats posted which put that assertion to task.

The campaign mighten't have much success but why be against it?

Because an organisation with so much resources could tackle domestic abuse, not specific domestic abuse victims. It ignores man on man and woman on woman domestic abuse.

A campaign that isn't going to have much success warrants criticism in and of itself. The funds could be better used on shelter provisions than a campaign that even supporters don't think is thought out particularly well.

Davelarson

Yellow121 wrote: »

I find it kinda sick that men are against this campaign. It may not be the best name for it but surely everyone supports the aims of it. The campaign calls for an end to the abuse of women and children. Abuse includes sexual assault. No one can deny it's mainly men who abuse women and children.
The campaign mighten't have much success but why be against it?

We're against it because it tars all men with the same brush and doesn't even acknowledge that women can also be abusers.

It's feminazi garbage.

Yellow121

Yellow121 wrote: »

I find it kinda sick that men are against this campaign.

It's not just men that are against it.

Dyr

Yellow121 wrote: »

Abuse includes sexual assault. No one can deny it's mainly men who abuse women and children.

eh?

rubadub

NuckingFacker wrote: »

Men who hit women should man the fuk up. A man doen't hit a woman, it's an old rule, and a good rule.

Are there any other sexist rules you think are good?

Boys shouldn't run with scissors.
Girls shouldn't stare at the sun.
Men should wash their hands before eating with their hands.

Yellow121

Pushtrak wrote: »

Reading this, you come across as someone who only sees that people have an objection of some form to a campaign that everyone should be on board with. You don't seem to have read, or if you have read, and understanding of the focus of the criticism.

Everyone supports the aims of a organisation being against domestic abuse.

Did you read the thread? There have been stats posted which put that assertion to task.

Because an organisation with so much resources could tackle domestic abuse, not specific domestic abuse victims. It ignores man on man and woman on woman domestic abuse.

A campaign that isn't going to have much success warrants criticism in and of itself. The funds could be better used on shelter provisions than a campaign that even supporters don't think is thought out particularly well.

Manup is a global campaign, not just an Irish one. It's time for men to not only condemn rape and abuse but to attack the roots of the problem.

Davelarson wrote: »

We're against it because it tars all men with the same brush and doesn't even acknowledge that women can also be abusers.

It's feminazi garbage.

It doesn't paint all men with the same brush.

Deleted User wrote: »

It's not just men that are against it.

Why are you against it?

Bambi wrote: »

eh?

What's wrong?

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

Yellow121 wrote: »

It's time for men to not only condemn rape and abuse but to attack the roots of the problem.

It doesn't paint all men with the same brush.

Pushtrak

Yellow121 wrote: »

Manup is a global campaign, not just an Irish one. It's time for men to not only condemn rape and abuse but to attack the roots of the problem.

Could you give your thoughts on something for me? Quoting an earlier post of mine:

Pushtrak wrote: »

There isn't just an omission of domestic abuse of men by women, there is also man on man and woman on woman. Would it be a poor decision for Safe Ireland to target domestic violence, and not domestic violence + criteria A?

Yellow121

Yellow121 wrote: »

It's time for men to not only condemn rape and abuse but to attack the roots of the problem.

Why men? And how?

Why are you against it?

I'm against anything that causes gender divides.

Yellow121

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

Most men celebrate and respect women – they don’t control them. Good men protect and care for children. With MAN UP, men and women are proudly standing up and declaring zero tolerance on violence against women in Ireland.

That's a quote from the Man up website if you don't know. Here's the link: http://www.manup.ie/
On the first line.

Yellow121

Yellow121 wrote: »

Most men celebrate and respect women – they don’t control them. Good men protect and care for children. With MAN UP, men and women are proudly standing up and declaring zero tolerance on violence against women in Ireland.

That's a quote from the Man up website if you don't know. Here's the link: http://www.manup.ie/
On the first line.

Have you read the thread?

Yellow121

Pushtrak wrote: »

Could you give your thoughts on something for me? Quoting an earlier post of mine:

That should be done in a future campaign but this one targets the main offenders of abuse of women and children.

Dyr

Yellow121 wrote: »

What's wrong?

b) last time i checked roughly half the population of this country was male. That's a fairly sweeping generalisation to make.

In general you'd probably find that certain demographs within ireland are statistically far more prone to engage in domestic abuse but you won't see a targeted campaign at these demographs due to sensitivity about negative stereotyping. Fair enough.

The male population in general though? fair game it seems.

Yellow121

Yellow121 wrote: »

That should be done in a future campaign but this one targets the main offenders of abuse of women and children.

The main abusers of people, are people.

Yellow121

Deleted User wrote: »

Why men? And how?



I'm against anything that causes gender divides.

Because they are the main culprits of sexual and physical abuse against women and children.

It's aim is to target the youth population so abuse against women isn't tolerated. It's starts from a young age where disrespectful comments and disparaging remarks are common place.

Walter Breeze

Campaigns like this seep into the subconscious with the message, " I should feel guilty for being a man". With such a high suicide rate for males in this country campaigns like man up don't help

Yellow121

Deleted User wrote: »

Have you read the thread?

Yes but maybe he didn't because when I said this "It doesn't paint all men with the same brush." he put on a smiley face.

Pushtrak

Yellow121 wrote: »

Because they are the main culprits of sexual and physical abuse against women and children.

Could you provide stats on that?

Yellow121

Bambi wrote: »

b) last time i checked roughly half the population of this country was male. That's a fairly sweeping generalisation to make.

In general you'd probably find that certain demographs within ireland are statistically far more prone to engage in domestic abuse but you won't see a targeted campaign at these demographs due to sensitivity about negative stereotyping. Fair enough.

The male population in general though? fair game it seems.

Mainly men abuse women and children not just in Ireland but Worldwide, that's a fact.

Yellow121

Deleted User wrote: »

The main abusers of people, are people.

The main abusers of people, are men.

Yellow121

Walter Breeze wrote: »

Campaigns like this seep into the subconscious with the message, " I should feel guilty for being a man". With such a high suicide rate for males in this country campaigns like man up don't help

Nonsense.

hansfrei

Yellow121 wrote: »

The main abusers of people, are men.

Thats horrendous. Ask any man who gets goaded, put down, slapped or threatened with removal of his kids that. See how far you can push him aswell, yeah?

Yellow121

Pushtrak wrote: »

Could you provide stats on that?

http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/domviol/facts.htm

"The percentage of incidents of sexual abuse by female perpetrators that come to the attention of the legal system is usually reported to be between 1% and 4%."
"Maletzky (1993) found that, of his sample of 4,402 convicted pedophilic offenders, 0.4% were female."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sexual_abuse#Demographics

"One in four women (25%) has experienced domestic violence in her lifetime."
http://divorcesupport.about.com/od/abusiverelationships/a/physicalabusestatistics.htm

Yellow121

hansfrei wrote: »

Thats horrendous. Ask any man who gets goaded, put down, slapped or threatened with removal of his kids that. See how far you can push him aswell, yeah?

What's this all about?

rubadub

Pushtrak wrote: »

Could you provide stats on that?

The stats are flawed, a lot of male victims of domestic abuse and rape goes unreported, and the likes of this campaign are to blame for that.

In fact the name of this campaign is exactly the type of thing that would be said to male victims "would you ever man up".

Its not just a benign fact that its not mentioning it, its actively making the situation worse.

hansfrei

Yellow121 wrote: »

What's this all about?

Do you even care is the question.

Yellow121

rubadub wrote: »

The stats are flawed, a lot of male victims of domestic abuse and rape goes unreported, and the likes of this campaign are to blame for that.

In fact the name of this campaign is exactly the type of thing that would be said to male victims "would you ever man up".

Its not just a benign fact that its not mentioning it, its actively making the situation worse.

A lot of female abuse goes unreported also.

Yellow121

hansfrei wrote: »

Do you even care is the question.

What are you talking about?

Dyr

Yellow121 wrote: »

Mainly men abuse women and children not just in Ireland but Worldwide, that's a fact.

I love facts. Especially ones that are backed up with independent studies and a proper defintion of "abuse".


Interestingly, that man up wesbite makes a similar claim about violence in Ireland, that women and children are the most common victims of violence. It's hard to get statistics on violence in Ireland that is not related to domestic abuse but generally, the most common victims of violence in western countries are young men.

Yellow121

Bambi wrote: »

I love facts. Especially ones that are backed up with independent studies and a proper defintion of "abuse".


Interestingly, that man up wesbite makes a similar claim about violence in Ireland, that women and children are the most common victims of violence. It's hard to get statistics on violence in Ireland that is not related to domestic abuse but generally, the most common victims of violence in western countries are young men.

I posted some stats already, there's plenty more out there too.

The most common perpetrators of violence in western countries is men.

constance tench

All in all, the discussion has been quite balanced....till now.

beakerjoe

yes i suspect trolling is afoot

Yellow121

constance tench wrote: »

All in all, the discussion has been quite balanced....till now.

What? You mean the discussion was balanced until someone had an opposing viewpoint to you?
You're welcome to debate any stats or statements I've made. I don't think you can because it's all fact.