help,,at witts end

jackben

Hi, I need some advice. We are having terrible trouble with our 3 year old and bedtime since I came home with our new son!!! ( 2 weeks ago)
We always had to lie down with him at nite to get him asleep but could sneak back to our own bed then,and 98% of the time then he would sleep the nite for us, but now its just all over the place.
Firstly he refuses to let his dad lie down with him so I have to and then he wakes during the nite anytime from 1 to 6 cryin an coming into babys room to me demanding I go back to bed with him or gets in with me,which is not good idea as baby wakes every 2-3 hours.
I no its partly our own fault and jealousy but I really need him to start goin to bed on his own an sleeping the nite,I'm just exhausted..
Please any advice be great.
Thanks

Hannibal Smith

You've brought back such harsh memories. I remember just getting the newborn to sleep and the 2 year old would come running in...so we got no sleep...in the end we had to put the eldest back in his cot until the youngest outgrew the moses basket.

He had been sleeping fine in a bed for nearly a year! The second came and bam it was back 10 steps. Also it was hard because three of us were in one room and he was in a room by himself and it was difficult for him to figure out bless him.

The only thing I can say is get the eldest included in as many activities with the baby during the day and keep the night time routine as close to what it was before as you can. It will settle down. ..but it might take a bit of reassuring the eldest. Oh and try and do something just you and the eldest during the day. ..even if it's just reading a story.

LegacyUser

I'm a firm believer in the 5 night rule.
5 nights to break a habit.

We've applied it to ours to break the soother habit over 5 nights, breaking the bottle habit over 5 nights and breaking a sleep habit over 5 nights.

Granted not everything works for everyone but it is a matter of persisting.

Yes he will cry lots and lots the first night but u need to keep persisting and leave him on his own in bed (staying close by to check him obviously). The second night it may or may not get easier but hopefully by the 3rd or 4th night he will have gotten used to the idea. Bringing him into your bed at any stage will undo any hard work you have done.

I'm far far from an expert but just sharing what has worked for me.

Das Kitty

You're probably going to have to be firm I'm afraid. Which is going to be hard on everyone as the new baby will get the blame from the 3 year old. But once it's sorted you'll have the energy to give the toddler all the 1:1 attention and TLC he needs.

What we did with our toddler when he got more and more needy at bedtime was finish up the regular routine and then tell him goodnight and leave the room. We let him know in advance this would be happening. The first night he went mental when we kept silently putting him back into bed, and I was crying myself for most of it. But after about 10 goes he stayed in bed. We let him cry for 2 minutes at a time then went in and put a hand in his chest and left again. Eventually, he stopped crying and went to sleep. It took an hour and a half.

The next night he only tried getting up once and was asleep in about 20 minutes. By night five he gave us a hug and kiss and settled down by himself. I was astounded at how quickly 2 hours of trying to get him to sleep was turned into no effort at all. And he slept better and longer too and was generally happier in the daytime. It was worth all the tears shed.

I would echo the above about making him feel like a team member in looking after the newbie. It really helps them feel needed. Good luck, and hopefully you'll be sleeping better soon.

jackben

Thank you all for your replies, I'm ready for the tears and hours of trying to get this sorted, we just can't carry on the way things are going,, our own fault I no so its time to sort it,, fingers crossed after the first week we will be some way sorted;)

liliq

Tbh I'd let him come in to you if that's what he needs, or He just wants to be reassured, by actions not words, that his new sibling isn't replacing him. It's a big change for a 3 year old & he doesn't have the same capacity for reason as you do.

A few weeks of showing him that you are still 100% there for him when he needs comfort etc, and he will probably be happy to return to his usual routine.

sari

Oh gosh this must be hard for everyone. I think he's feeling a little insecure with the new baby it's pretty normal reaction to want more and more attention for mama. Don't let him cry by himself I think this could make things a whole lot worse. Lots of love and affection give it time and I'm sure it will settle down. Try to get him involved with helping baby as much as possible. Try to make some time for just you and him. I don't think tough love will work here and would probably make the situation a lot worse making him even more insecure.
Hope it settles soon for you. Take care of yourself

gemini_girl

Oh the poor little guy. He sounds insecure. A new baby has come along & now more than ever he needs lots of reassurance. My son was 2 yrs 8 months when no 2 came along & he decided no more night time sleeping & that lasted about 3 months. You cant expect him to understand. Could you get him one of those ready beds & put it in your room for when he needs mummy or daddy? Get him to be as involved during the day & also try & give him even an hour of just him & you playing or doing something special. We just left our first come in as often as he liked & needed & within about 3 months he had stopped coming in. He was just too small & confused to understand how tired we were with new baby (who didn't sleep either over reflux etc). Its a huge adjustment for everyone but your toddlers needs are top of the list right now because he is the one who doesn't understand. Our kids are 3 & 5.5 now & a few times a week someone will come in for a cuddle & might go back to bed or stay. They are only little for such a short time so I don't complain cos I know i'll miss the little toes sticking into my face, back etc

amen

Yes he will cry lots and lots the first night but u need to keep persisting and leave him on his own in bed (staying close by to check him obviously). The second night it may or may not get easier but hopefully by the 3rd or 4th night he will have gotten used to the idea. Bringing him into your bed at any stage will undo any hard work you have done

best idea. You just have to tough it out. You are your childs parent not his friend. He needs to know bed time is when he sleeps and baring an emergency he should know he should stay there all night with no coming into his parents bed in the middle of the night.

Tbh I'd let him come in to you if that's what he needs, or He just wants to be reassured, by actions not words

You do the reassuring during the day not in the middle of the night. When you go to bed you stay in bed.

gemini_girl

amen wrote: »

best idea. You just have to tough it out. You are your childs parent not his friend. He needs to know bed time is when he sleeps and baring an emergency he should know he should stay there all night with no coming into his parents bed in the middle of the night.


You do the reassuring during the day not in the middle of the night. When you go to bed you stay in bed.

Why??? Do you stop being a parent a night time??? Where are you getting your information from or is it based on your own opinion?
Leaving any person to cry is just horrible. If I was crying & my husband just ignored me would I feel better? No of course not. Little children need the most reassurance because they understand the least. You are a parent 24 hours a day not when it suits you!

vitani

WhiteTiger wrote: »

Why??? Do you stop being a parent a night time??? Where are you getting your information from or is it based on your own opinion?
Leaving any person to cry is just horrible. If I was crying & my husband just ignored me would I feel better? No of course not. Little children need the most reassurance because they understand the least. You are a parent 24 hours a day not when it suits you!

I think that's a bit unfair, tbh. I've had to sleep train my daughter twice - the first time when all other methods of getting her to sleep had failed and it was taking two hours of rocking her in my arms to actually get her to nod off. (She'd then become overtired and restless for the entire night.) The second time was when I had to take her dummy away from her as one of her teeth had begun to get crooked.

Neither time was easy for either of us, but a couple of hours of discomfort over a couple of nights led to a child (with nice straight teeth) who goes to sleep easily at night and who can settle herself again when she wakes. She's now well-rested and happy during the day, and so am I. I also have a lot more patience with her after a decent night's sleep, which IMO is worth the couple of difficult nights.

Fair enough, it's not how you choose to parent, and I'm sure everyone can understand that. But I don't agree with telling someone that doing things a different way means they want to pick and choose when they're a parent.

liliq

WhiteTiger wrote: »

Why??? Do you stop being a parent a night time??? Where are you getting your information from or is it based on your own opinion?
Leaving any person to cry is just horrible. If I was crying & my husband just ignored me would I feel better? No of course not. Little children need the most reassurance because they understand the least. You are a parent 24 hours a day not when it suits you!

+100.
Parenting responsibilities don't end at night time. Leaving a child to cry, and saying they're better off for it, is just being an a$$ at best.

gemini_girl

vitani wrote: »

I think that's a bit unfair, tbh. I've had to sleep train my daughter twice - the first time when all other methods of getting her to sleep had failed and it was taking two hours of rocking her in my arms to actually get her to nod off. (She'd then become overtired and restless for the entire night.) The second time was when I had to take her dummy away from her as one of her teeth had begun to get crooked.

Neither time was easy for either of us, but a couple of hours of discomfort over a couple of nights led to a child (with nice straight teeth) who goes to sleep easily at night and who can settle herself again when she wakes. She's now well-rested and happy during the day, and so am I. I also have a lot more patience with her after a decent night's sleep, which IMO is worth the couple of difficult nights.

Fair enough, it's not how you choose to parent, and I'm sure everyone can understand that. But I don't agree with telling someone that doing things a different way means they want to pick and choose when they're a parent.

I was referring to the comment when you go to bed you stay in bed.
What if the child was sick? They cant cry to let you know?
Crying is how children communicate. Especially smaller children who cant talk. I agree everyone parents different & I wasn't trying to sound unfair but I thought the comment I quoted sounded very harsh. We have a strange culture in comparison to a huge part of the world. In a lot of countries its even unheard of for children to be separate from their mothers especially at night time. How do you feel if you are leaving a child crying? It doesn't feel nice (I mean even for the parent). It goes against your instinct to answer your childs cries. A lot of parents are very upset themselves if they are using methods like controlled crying etc.
Its worth looking into the effects of controlled crying on childrens cortisol levels. There is so much info from so many different angles pushed on parents these days its hard to know what to do. I ended up studying child psychology as one of my modules in college so I suppose I have a biased point of view on the effects of crying not being answered.
There are other ways though instead of controlled crying.
Elizabeth Pantley has a range of books, one of them is called The No Cry Sleep Solution & it has some great ideas on helping children go to sleep with a special section for when a new baby arrives.
Its very hard when you are all sleep deprived. I went through similar when my 2nd son was born & I had pnd as well to contend with so making sure everyone was happy definitely helped even if it meant 4 in a bed every so often. I'm sure by time they are off to college they'll have gotten fed up of coming in

Hannibal Smith

liliq wrote: »

+100.
Parenting responsibilities don't end at night time. Leaving a child to cry, and saying they're better off for it, is just being an a$$ at best.

The never ending judgement from perfect parents with the perfect children.

liliq

I've never claimed to be a perfect parent or have a perfect child.
I do make some attempt to be responsible and care for my child though, rather than treat him as an inconvenience just because it's after 730pm. Why bother having a child if you're going to treat them badly? Just because it's not convenient to comfort them?

Hannibal Smith

liliq wrote: »

I've never claimed to be a perfect parent or have a perfect child.
I do make some attempt to be responsible and care for my child though, rather than treat him as an inconvenience just because it's after 730pm. Why bother having a child if you're going to treat them badly? Just because it's not convenient to comfort them?

Your way of parenting may differ to some one else's. ..but you have absolutely no right to claim you care more for your child or accuse anyone of bad parenting.

Different parenting tactics work for different families. I could never have a child swinging out of the lights at 11pm. Do I think a parent who does is doing a bad job? No. I think that's what works for them and that's great.

Parenting is tough enough without the judgement.

gemini_girl

Hannibal Smith wrote: »

Your way of parenting may differ to some one else's. ..but you have absolutely no right to claim you care more for your child or accuse anyone of bad parenting.

Different parenting tactics work for different families. I could never have a child swinging out of the lights at 11pm. Do I think a parent who does is doing a bad job? No. I think that's what works for them and that's great.

Parenting is tough enough without the judgement.

I don't think anyone is saying they care more about their children than others but in all fairness someone could turn around and say something like they slap their kids, feed them crap & leave them do as they like etc etc. Are they justified because its their parenting style? I'm not suggesting anyone here is doing that but im just giving an example of how its not always as easy to say oh its my parenting style & do what you like.
At the end of the day a new mum the op is looking for advice on how to help her 2 year old & her 2 week old adjust. The toddlers world has been turned upside down with a new baby arriving & saying to the toddler that once your in bed you stay in bed is just not helpful for this mum or her family for this situation. Its not about better parenting or better kids

Hannibal Smith

WhiteTiger wrote: »

I don't think anyone is saying they care more about their children than other

Lilliq did. And comparing physically abusing a child with what was suggested in this thread is over the top.

vitani

WhiteTiger wrote: »

At the end of the day a new mum the op is looking for advice on how to help her 2 year old & her 2 week old adjust. The toddlers world has been turned upside down with a new baby arriving & saying to the toddler that once your in bed you stay in bed is just not helpful for this mum or her family for this situation. Its not about better parenting or better kids

The majority of advice the OP initially got was to give the 2 year old more reassurance and one-on-one attention during the day, but to be firm at night until the sleepless phase was over, and the 'stay in bed' comment IMO was along the same lines.

Having said that, I would place quite a high priority on sleep because I have an already hyperactive child who gets a lot worse when she's not fully rested, so I'm probably coming at it from a different angle from you. I'm not against comforting a child at night and I do bring my daughter in to my bed when she needs me. But I don't let it become a habit because I think it does more harm than good overall.

liliq

Hannibal Smith wrote: »

Lilliq did. And comparing physically abusing a child with what was suggested in this thread is over the top.

To clarify, when I said 'care for their child', I meant it in the sense of looking after the child, not loving them.
I'm not suggesting anyone loves their child more or less.
But the child probably feels less loved of they're left alone to cry.

wolfpawnat

People are aware there is more than one way to raise a child right? And a person choosing a different method to parent is not a personal attack on the method used by others. Attachment Parenting is not for everyone, and there is nothing wrong with that.

I had to keep putting my son back into bed until he stopped coming out. He has the en suite bedroom and water available at night, so unless there is an issue (nightmares), he knows not to come out at 8pm or before 7am, he even has his own clock. It took 3 days for him to learn this.

My guy got jealous of his sister getting to snuggle to sleep on me, so I did stuff with him to show he is just as special. Just during daylight hours. Of course nightmares are different, but I really think my boy should be in his own room when he has to be to school the next day.

Hannibal Smith

wolfpawnat wrote: »

People are aware there is more than one way to raise a child right? And a person choosing a different method to parent is not a personal attack on the method used by others. Attachment Parenting is not for everyone, and there is nothing wrong with that.

I had to keep putting my son back into bed until he stopped coming out. He has the en suite bedroom and water available at night, so unless there is an issue (nightmares), he knows not to come out at 8pm or before 7am, he even has his own clock. It took 3 days for him to learn this.

My guy got jealous of his sister getting to snuggle to sleep on me, so I did stuff with him to show he is just as special. Just during daylight hours. Of course nightmares are different, but I really think my boy should be in his own room when he has to be to school the next day.

I would never consider a different form of parenting as an attack on an alternative method.

However I do consider posts like this an attack:-

"I do make some attempt to be responsible and care for my child though, rather than treat him as an inconvenience just because it's after 730pm. Why bother having a child if you're going to treat them badly? Just because it's not convenient to comfort them?"

Ms2011

Sleep makes me a better parent end of really. Without it I'm miserable, grumpy & lacked the energy to do anything more than the basics with my son. I did 'cry it out' with my son for a few nights, he now races up the stairs to bed, is asleep by 7pm & sleeps till 7am. He's happy & well rested & so am I.
If I had to sacrafic being the perfect parent 1 percent of the time so I could be a better parent 99 percent of the time then so be it, I make no apologies for that.

Ms2011

Hannibal Smith wrote: »

I would never consider a different form of parenting as an attack on an alternative method.

However I do consider posts like this an attack:-

"I do make some attempt to be responsible and care for my child though, rather than treat him as an inconvenience just because it's after 730pm. Why bother having a child if you're going to treat them badly? Just because it's not convenient to comfort them?"

I would agree, that quote is one of the harshest, most judgemental things I've ever seen posted on this forum & there's been a few!!

wolfpawnat

Hannibal Smith wrote: »

I would never consider a different form of parenting as an attack on an alternative method.

However I do consider posts like this an attack:-

"I do make some attempt to be responsible and care for my child though, rather than treat him as an inconvenience just because it's after 730pm. Why bother having a child if you're going to treat them badly? Just because it's not convenient to comfort them?"

That is the sort of thing I was referring to, seriously, people have different methods of raising kids, it doesn't mean they're cruel.

Ms2011 wrote: »

Sleep makes me a better parent end of really. Without it I'm miserable, grumpy & lacked the energy to do anything more than the basics with my son. I did 'cry it out' with my son for a few nights, he now races up the stairs to bed, is asleep by 7pm & sleeps till 7am. He's happy & well rested & so am I.
If I had to sacrafic being the perfect parent 1 percent of the time so I could be a better parent 99 percent of the time then so be it, I make no apologies for that.

I'm the exact same, and if I am tired, the whole family knows. How can I be a good mom if I were to be dealing with 2 restless children, you expect it with a baby, but were I to have to get up and deal with a 4yo too I would lose the plot. Of course it is different for the occasional nightmare, and he occasionally used get night terrors too. That's a different kettle of fish.

gemini_girl

Ms2011 wrote: »

Sleep makes me a better parent end of really. Without it I'm miserable, grumpy & lacked the energy to do anything more than the basics with my son. I did 'cry it out' with my son for a few nights, he now races up the stairs to bed, is asleep by 7pm & sleeps till 7am. He's happy & well rested & so am I.
If I had to sacrafic being the perfect parent 1 percent of the time so I could be a better parent 99 percent of the time then so be it, I make no apologies for that.

If we were all trying to be the perfect parent we would be giving ourselves a really hard time. There is no such thing. Every child is different too. There is no one fits all method. I just thought this case where the op has had a new baby is not as straight forward as the toddler just wont go to sleep. He needs a lot of reassurance because of his circumstances at the moment & people need to remember that. Its well & good to advise the CIO method etc if that's what you think will work but also think of the circumstances that this little guy is in at the moment. With a 2 week old baby nobody knows whether they are coming or going especially the toddler

Hannibal Smith

WhiteTiger wrote: »

If we were all trying to be the perfect parent we would be giving ourselves a really hard time. There is no such thing. Every child is different too. There is no one fits all method. I just thought this case where the op has had a new baby is not as straight forward as the toddler just wont go to sleep. He needs a lot of reassurance because of his circumstances at the moment & people need to remember that. Its well & good to advise the CIO method etc if that's what you think will work but also think of the circumstances that this little guy is in at the moment. With a 2 week old baby nobody knows whether they are coming or going especially the toddler

And that's the whole point of a forum. A person asks a question and others post what worked for them and the op uses their own judgement to decide what will work best for them. They may try nothing suggested, or they may try everything suggested. There's always more than one way to skin a cat

Sligo1

Hannibal Smith wrote: »

And that's the whole point of a forum. A person asks a question and others post what worked for them and the op uses their own judgement to decide what will work best for them. They may try nothing suggested, or they may try everything suggested. There's always more than one way to skin a cat

Have to agree with this. There's loads of different ways that work for different families but there were some extremely judgemental posts earlier. I had to let my little guy cry to get him into his routine of napping. It only took a couple days. i hated hearing him cry but now he's the most settled and happy little fella and in such a good routine. I don't think I'm an "a$$" for leaving him cry that short while. And I don't think people are saying you can't go and give your baby a cuddle the odd time at nighttime either.

amen

Why??? Do you stop being a parent a night time??? Where are you getting your information from or is it based on your own opinion?
Leaving any person to cry is just horrible. If I was crying & my husband just ignored me would I feel better? No of course not. Little children need the most reassurance because they understand the least. You are a parent 24 hours a day not when it suits you!

Ok I may have come across as a bit harsh. I was simply trying to say that you establish a routine and explain to the child that it is bed time, wash face, read a story etc and that when the light is off they are expected to stay in bed bar they need to go to the bathroom, are not well etc.

If they leave the bed and come visit you simply tell them its night time, pick them up and put them back in bed and tuck them in.

You may get tears the first 2-3 nights but after there will be no problems.

My children have slept in their own room since they were 9 months old and we have never had any problems with children coming to visit in the middle of the night.

The only time they would come in is if they are not feeling well and even then we bring them back to their own room.

Generally they go to sleep around 08:30pm and wake around 07:30am.

I think it is better for parents and children that everyone gets a good night sleep.

gemini_girl

amen wrote: »

Ok I may have come across as a bit harsh. I was simply trying to say that you establish a routine and explain to the child that it is bed time, wash face, read a story etc and that when the light is off they are expected to stay in bed bar they need to go to the bathroom, are not well etc.

If they leave the bed and come visit you simply tell them its night time, pick them up and put them back in bed and tuck them in.

You may get tears the first 2-3 nights but after there will be no problems.

My children have slept in their own room since they were 9 months old and we have never had any problems with children coming to visit in the middle of the night.

The only time they would come in is if they are not feeling well and even then we bring them back to their own room.

Generally they go to sleep around 08:30pm and wake around 07:30am.

I think it is better for parents and children that everyone gets a good night sleep.

Mine sleep 7pm to 7am but one of them could often wake up & come in & just climb in with us. They'd just go back to sleep so its no major disruption to us or them as long as they are not having a night where they are doing gymnastics in their sleep! They also share a bedroom so sometimes the smaller boy hops in with his brother too