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State of emergency declared in Libyan capital
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18-11-2013 4:55am#1
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I believe there is a moral obligation on the western countries who helped overthrow Gaddaffi, to see their action through.
With careful exception of non-Western countries and the Arab League nations which pushed so hard for an international response..
Or are we only aiming for certain targets again in this thread
Many of these countries are investing in Libya which is under-going a large rebuilding process - instability or violence is not in anyone's interestsTaking out Gaddaffi in reality was not really that difficult
Actually it was pretty difficult, more than a few very stressed individuals in NATO and beyond - most expected action to take a few weeks, it dragged on for months and entered a stalemate.
Libya is currently in a far better situation than Syria and generally has a much brighter future than they did 3 years ago - plus they have a fledgling democracy
However, the oil industry is still not operating anywhere close to max levels, the militias are a large problem and corruption is still rife
edit: plus the internal police and security situation seems to be a bit of a free-for-all
So yup, rebuilding slowly, adhering to the democratic process (so far), I wouldn't say it's been abandoned either - not by a long shot, many countries have a very keen interest in Libya performing well and becoming a good democratic example for the rest of the region.0 -
Or are we only aiming for certain targets again in this thread
I criticize the west more, because i am from the west. I will leave criticism of Arab countries, China, Russia etc..to people from those countries. If i were to be sitting here, pointing the finger at countries and government that i am not associated with, well it would be entirely pointless. It would be the equivalent to somebody from China, sitting on a Chinese forum and only criticizing US foreign policy while ignoring the atrocities committed by its own nation. Unfortunately, with some boards members here, that is exactly what happens. They like to focus their energy in defending the west, and then criticize other nations that they have really nothing to do with. It is so illogical it is actually quite frustrating.Actually it was pretty difficult, more than a few very stressed individuals in NATO and beyond - most expected action to take a few weeks, it dragged on for months and entered a stalemate.
I mean it may have been more difficult than anticipated, but come on, the most powerful military in the world, supported by a whole number of other nations. Fine it was really difficult, but i stand by my point that the focus should have been on developing a strategy for once he was removed. This is so blatantly obvious and the west know this but their inaction with regard to this has been facilitated by the western media almost refusing to cover what is happening in Libya nowadays.So yup, rebuilding slowly, adhering to the democratic process (so far), I wouldn't say it's been abandoned either - not by a long shot, many countries have a very keen interest in Libya performing well and becoming a good democratic example for the rest of the region.
Yawn, for how many decades, and in how many countries will we have to listen to this line being dropped. It really is just the same stuff, repeated over and over again, and people just lap it up. I also do not think it is for you to decide if Libya is in a better position now, than three years ago. That is up to Libyans and Libyans only, and id like to warrant a guess that the majority would not share your optimism.0 -
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The civil war started BEFORE the UN Allied strikes Which had massive international backing Without The strikes Libya would look like Syria , far worse than it currently is Qaddafis assault on East Libya would have collapsed the country would have had massive infrastructure damage and civilian causality and partitioned with a increasingly islamsied opposition. The failure to intervene and stop the Tryants
would have created far worse situation
The United Nations allied forces is playing a major role in the creation of the new Libyan institutions to replace the Criminal Qaddafi Clan MIL/Police state which the Libyan people overthrew
With the help of the United nations Allied Forces, although they could do more a lot more and could have done a lot sooner for example (I can pick many more) recent graduation of Graduation of Chemical and toxin troops from the Air defense by the UN
Libyan Airborne training
The militia situation is been dealt with..
Misrata local council ordered all Misrata militias to withdraw from the Tripoli and they are there no more. Gharghour district was taken by military and Tripoli local council ordered demolition of ex-Misrata base. Zintan council ordered all Zintani militias to withdraw from Tripoli as well, although they played no part in that massacre.
One way or another what happened there was not clash between militias. It was uprising of citizens against militias. All of them. Misratis and Zintanis are dealt with, albeit Tripoli militias remain, especially in Mitiga air base. Anyone ever wondered why Misratis wanted to remain in Tripoli so much? Let me remind you what happened during Political isolation law - militias stormed government buildings, put parliament under siege and forced parliament to pass the law. They wanted to remain there until Constitution is accepted. Because they wanted it to be theirs Constitution. Now, they cannot threaten with guns anymore.
Benghazi is for all purposes militia-free, Special forces are heavily deployed in the city and are manning the checkpoints and militias were forced to disarm. The word is that deployment came as a result of military command being fed up with political non-sense and waiting on approval of government and did it their way. I am strongly inclined to believe that. This may be a turning point for Tripoli, and with Tripoli for the rest of Libya as well, since people are fed up with militias justifying their thuggish behavior by "revolutionary legitimacy" and whatever bollocks they come up with. And it also is a hard strike for Muslim Brotherhood and their new Speaker of parliament who got additional militias to Tripoli under so-called "Revolutionary operations room". Which for all purposes ceased to exist as well.
Protesters announced that next Friday they will head to Mitiga airbase to kick out Tripoli militias out of there (so-called SSC what was supposed to be a transitional police which militias barricaded as their justification for existence....long story).
Anyone wondering how many former "revolutionaries" are receiving salaries based on claims that they fought against Qaddafi.
Hold your chairs because its 220,000. Yep, 220 000. Being a militiaman or having a militia is one of the most profitable business. And if up to it you can close some gas or oil fields....well, you get my point. We´re talking about political influence and money.
Several of the militiamen who fired on civilians were arrested and they can be glad that they weren´t lynched. Probably SSC units. If you want to look for a person responsible for Friday massacre than by all means you cannot miss Abdulrahman Swehli and Salaheddin Badi, both leading members of Misrati Union for Homeland party which is closely linked to Muslim Brotherhood.
also Grand Mufti Gharyiani, head of Dar al-Ifta.
Misratas are prideful and well, even though you would find many who say they do not agree with shooting that happened in Garghour, many more would be apologetic. One way or another finding Misratan who is not supportive of Misrata militias is next to impossible. That resulted in perhaps the greatest fitna between Tripoli and Misrata in history. Tripoli says that Misrata should GTFO and rot off in hell, Misrata that they can all sod themselves and recalled all militias back to city and also called for members of GNC and government to resign.
Thing about Misrata militias is that they are fine as long as they are confined within Misrata, they do shyt once they get out (Bani Walid, Tripoli even once in Benghazi). There are several other cities that can handle their own militias and militias play positive role like Baydah, Zintan or to lesser extent Tobruq (which is mostly secured by army and police). And as far as I know Misrata is controlled by their militias - mostly composed by SSC and Shield (bankrolled by MoI and MoD and technically falling under their command). Those militias are completely loyal to Misrata local council though.
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Its military parade in Benghazi. Whole purpose was to show Benghazians that army is deployed in the city after additional reinforcements from Saiqa and military police. Benghazians feel safer and there is heavy 24/7 presence of military in Benghazi and that is what counts.
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Need I remind you that Gaddafi was well on the way to victory as he closed in on Benghazi. Had the West not intervened when it did the rebellion would have been crushed. So the militias are a byproduct of Western Intervention because they would otherwise have been wiped out.
I disagree strongly
Without The strikes Libya would look like Syria is now , i.e. far worse than it currently is, The
Regimes assault on East Libya would have collapsed the country
There would have been massive infrastructure damage and civilian casualties and de facto partitioned with a increasingly Islamist opposition and many Jihadist foreign fighters
His assault would have ended in Farce.
It was not just Benghazi, It was the whole of Eastern Libya Several million people
The Rebels had captured huge arms depots in the east Combined with gunrunning from friendly states which had ready began.
The size of the Armored column Qadaffi sent was not big enough for the job,
The length of supply line from Sirte was extreme and very vulnerable to Guerrilla action
The military history of Libya military under Qaddafi is list of strategic and tactical defeats in every campaign, The very fact that there lost the entire east of country in days underpins this
His Air-force and Army where a joke only a a handful of units where capable
Not enough to deal with multiple emerging fronts
Dealing with east and garrisoning the west and the numerous rebellions pockets emerging in the west namely Misrata and the western mountains.
The rebels would not have won outright but they would have stopped his advance.
The threat on Bengazi was way overplayed to gain western support.
The rebels where armed to the teeth (they even had planes remember?), entrenched easily supplied from Egypt while Qaddafi forces were a skeleton unit (maybe a dozen of tanks, half a dozen howitzers, 20 BMP/IFV...), against at least 10 000 rebels a fair bit of it coming from military that defected, including well trained forces lead by the ex-Interior Minister that defected with him. They did try to push trough with an armored fist before the airstrikes and that was stopped neat by rebel armor.
If you look at the make up of the Gaddaffi column from news reports(CNN where embedded with them just days before french strikes) and interviews
with captured personnel they did not appear to be top quality many of them appeared to be black African teenage mercs and constantly firing weapons in air, ill dressed . Also the initial clashes before air strikes resulted in numerous AFVs
being knocked out by rebel ambushes in street fighting. The rebels already captured 50 prisoners according to CNN report.
I predict the Column was not big or high quality enough to do the job (the column had already bypassed the small city before Benghazi after resistance there) it was asked to do and the rebels too strong, It would would have stalled before Benghazi would have suffered heavy losses in street fighting in outskirts
and then faced Raids on its supply lines and supporting units from mobile columns equipped with technical's
similar to how the Chadians defeated Libya in "Toyota" war
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_War
and been forced to withdraw to Brega-line
after that the rebels would have consolidated backed by Arms supplies including weapons like Milan ATGMs
and the war would have stalemated in east. The regime could very well have won in west depending on patterns of desertions, defections and mutiny.
A map from wiki showing fronts at moment of no fly zone
Gaddafi would have to fight on at least 3 major fronts(western mountains, misrata + east) and deploy troops at a massive distance from his support base to invade eastern Libya which contains some 2 million people
Those troops would have to be of a certain standard* and at least two divisions.
which would have to be sent before the Rebels received ATGM and Air defense etc weapons from allies He lacked the Quality manpower needed
* capable of fighting and advancing in Urban terrain against committed enemy and maintaining extended logistics lines against guerrilla action.
And there are relevant statistics that show how great Gaddafi support was. Amazigh community, Tripoli, Zintan, Zawiya, Misrata, al-Khums, all other cities with exception of Bani Walid and perhaps Tarhouna and Mizdah shows rather low support for Gaddafi. As it happens everyone forgets about the Nafusa, about Toubou rebellion and also about fact that Ajdabiya was never taken by Gaddafi, Benghazi was fully mobilized and that there was also Darnah, Baydah, Tobruq and Kufrah. Misrata fought for month without any NATO support, yet Gaddafi troops failed to take control of the city.
Gaddafi had his patrons, like his own tribe, people from the Sirte area, some of the black Libyans and a few others, but his support base was essentially just people who benefited from his system, and there weren't enough of them to save him.
Gaddafi had no real genuine allies willing to do more than offer moral support. Even the Russians signed off on a security counsel resolution which they and everyone else knew would result in Gaddafi's army being bombed outside Benghazi.fighters to Syria. Who did Gaddafi have that was willing to do that for him? South Africa and Algeria offered verbal and moral support but that was it, Niger has housed one of his sons that escaped and so did Algeria, but they did nothing to help him militarily. The Gaddafi loyalists in the military were completely on their own.
As long as Gaddafi had no outside support, and the rebels were receiving arms and even training (especially the fighters in the mountains) from Qatar, Saudi Arabia and even the west, he had no chance. He would have held out longer but his downfall was inevitable. People here are also forgetting that even if they'd lost in Benghazi the rebellion was ongoing in the areas west and south of Tripoli, in the Berber areas, and his (Gaddafi's) army would still have needed to take the Derna and Tobruk areas as well near the Egyptian border.0 -
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Rival militias quit Tripoli, hand bases to Libyan army
BY GHAITH SHENNIB
TRIPOLI Thu Nov 21,
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/11/21/us-libya-security-idUSBRE9AK0ZV20131121Rival Libyan militias surrendered their bases to the army and retreated from Tripoli on Thursday in the face of popular anger against their refusal to disarm in the two years since they toppled longtime leader Muammar Gaddafi.
Libya's chaotic struggle to control militia fighters and Islamist militants has become an increasing worry for Western powers, concerned that violence in the OPEC country could spill over to its North African neighbors.
At Mittiga airbase, militias tied to the Islamist-leaning Supreme Security Committee (SSC) said they would turn over control to the army. The powerful al Qaqaa brigades from Zintan, southwest of Tripoli, also handed over their base, commanders and officials said.
Tripoli eats cake to celebrate Libyan militias' withdrawal
By Rana Jawad
BBC News, Tripoli
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-25037332Tripoli residents have been brandishing and eating pastries on the streets this week as a symbol of their victory in forcing militias from elsewhere in Libya to withdraw from the capital.
The city is famous for its baryoosh - a croissant-like brioche - but since the fall of Muammar Gaddafi, its residents have been derided by some in the provinces as cake-eaters.
The capital was one of the last cities to be taken by rebel forces during the 2011 revolution and how it fell is a very testy subject.
Wow great step forward for emerging democracy Libya
There may stille be problems. Only few of these militias actually handed over their weapons, including heavy weapons. Many just returned to their cities of origin (Misrata, Zintan, Ghariyan) The one which did hand the over and fully integrated into military, while relocating itself to borders, was Qa3Qa3 Zintani brigade, which is linked to NFA head Jibril. Also several Tripoli brigades did. However, most remain still in Mitiga airbase, although some disbanded and apparently the Mitiga prison was finally handed over.
This move was however sparked by people taking things into their own hands and government than using the opportunity. But military, nor police did not really use any force. They can show it now - deadline for blocking of oil and gas terminals have passed and Zeidan yesterday said that Jathran will be dealt with by force. Jathran blocking has divided federalist movement sharply and brought nothing but financial loss for whole country. If military manages to end the occupation and bring Jathran to court it will be a huge PR boost for them.
Meanwhile International AID, equipmentand training for New Libyan institutions of emerging democracy continues from united nations allies, newly arrived USA Humvee on Parade
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There were no militias in Libya until NATO put them there.
NATO didn't "put" anyone there. The militas formed to fight Gadaffi under the NTC.It was the richest country in Africa until it was wrecked by NATO in search of destabilsation and resources.
Germany was the richest country in Europe until it was "wrecked" by the allies. Context is important. Also Libya was rich "on paper", large areas of the country were extremely poor with high corruption. Gadaffi and his family laundered 10's out of billions of the country.Ghaddafi did not even rule the country, in case you didn't know.
He very much did, with an iron fist. Opposition was outlawed, journalists, political opponents and activists were thrown in prison, tortured and disappeared - the country had an awful human rights record.Libya is now shattered, like Iraq, thanks to the desire for profit and strategy.
You are partially correct, the infrastructure (which was terrible before) took a beating during the conflict. Also the leadership was ripped out which meant the corrupt courts, judiciary and all the trappings of the huge internal security appartus has been torn out - leaving a large hole where they was once (very one sided) security
However it's being rebuilt thanks partially to the reclaiming of billions that the Gadaffi family stole from the country over the decades, Chinese, Russian and foreign investment. Oil infrastructure is still not at pre-war levels but it's slowly returning to normal.
You must remember, cities like Misrata were shelled for months - it takes a long time to rebuildIf you know a single person from any of these countries, if you have ever even spoken to one you would know that they had a beautiful life before now.
Horse**** of the highest order
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