Christmas Special - (Spoilers)

Also Starring LeVar Burton

I'm so sad that Matt Smith is gone, but super happy to see Peter Capaldi get his Doctor on.
Overall, I enjoyed the episode - couple of gripes as have been pointed out by others, but generally I'm happy to overlook them.
Was really happy to have a new companion in Handles and thought it'll be so cool to see him travel with Capaldi and Clara, and then they went and killed him. I'm still counting Handles as a true companion...

flazio

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMriWj5e_vY

Doctor DooM

Any else like to think Strax is treated by Sontaran high command like Zim is by the Tallest?

"Oh god, I'm not listening to another one of his field reports, he's probably blown up a shed or something"

Antar Bolaeisk

The Master wrote: »

Rumors of an Easter special if time permits...

They should get Paul McGann in to do an Easter Special, a stand-alone episode of some sorts.

Doctor DooM

Antar Bolaeisk wrote: »

They should get Paul McGann in to do an Easter Special, a stand-alone episode of some sorts.

I'd love to see that. I don't think it'll happen, but I'd love to see it.

Penn

Admittedly, if there is one thing that annoys me about the Moffat era, it's the inconsistency of airtime. Fifth season was fine. Sixth was split in two parts. Seventh was split in two parts over two years. And now the Eighth will be later in the year than usual.

Doctor DooM

Penn wrote: »

Admittedly, if there is one thing that annoys me about the Moffat era, it's the inconsistency of airtime. Fifth season was fine. Sixth was split in two parts. Seventh was split in two parts over two years. And now the Eighth will be later in the year than usual.

Sadly I don't think there's much that could be done about that. The Beebs getting less and less money from what I hear, so Doctor Who has to stretch it further and further.

Hopefully now they seem to have one of the biggest programmes in the world on their hands that might change.

Frank Lee Midere

Killer_banana wrote: »

I hadn't even thought of this...

Yes it's a plot hole but Moffat tends to mend those holes. Eventually. Maybe we will see the next doctor fake his death. I mean 11 said in the episode that he had to die because his grave was on Trenzalore, so Moffat was acknowledging that some doctor dies there or it is faked.

Agent Coulson

I just have a feeling from about the ten seconds we saw them together Capaldi's Doctor and Clara could be a perfect match together.

Penn

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Yes it's a plot hole but Moffat tends to mend those holes. Eventually. Maybe we will see the next doctor fake his death. I mean 11 said in the episode that he had to die because his grave was on Trenzalore, so Moffat was acknowledging that some doctor dies there or it is faked.

Could it be that the Doctor getting new regenerations meant that his previous cycle of regenerations "died" in a sense? It wouldn't explain how the Tardis was there, but it could explain the "tears in the fabric of time" which was in his grave in lieu of a body, and why Clara only saw past versions of The Doctor but no future versions.

shinzon

Im surprised no one mentioned this piece of music when Clara went to comfort the Doctor on Trenzalore, nice throwback to the End of Time

Shin

pixelburp

Excellent; episode recorded and ready to play, comments above this one expertly ignored, heading into this blissfully ignorant. Here I go...

Interrobang

shinzon wrote: »

Im surprised no one mentioned this piece of music when Clara went to comfort the Doctor on Trenzalore, nice throwback to the End of Time

Shin

Upthread:

Interrobang wrote: »

SweepTheLeg wrote: »

Be honest, which parts got you choked up.

The gorgeous variation when Clara was helping him with the cracker - the music in Doctor Who overall is pretty special, but that was the tipping point for me.

I was doing okay until that point, but suddenly the music had me in a heap. I was taken by surprise by this regen as I didn't think that Matt Smith had made all that much of an impression on me, but I was wrong. That scene and that music were what sucker-punched me. And the bow tie. And probably the wine. But mainly the music.

Didn't he say "all those graves, all mine" so maybe it is in the far future after loads more regens

Frank Lee Midere

Penn wrote: »

Could it be that the Doctor getting new regenerations meant that his previous cycle of regenerations "died" in a sense? It wouldn't explain how the Tardis was there, but it could explain the "tears in the fabric of time" which was in his grave in lieu of a body, and why Clara only saw past versions of The Doctor but no future versions.

Well I would agree with all that except the Tardis grave was his Tardis, wasn't it? The one and only. So that needs explanation. Of course Moffat can kick the can down the road, leaving the scriptwriters in 2050 to deal with it, just as he dealt with the regeneration issue caused by scriptwriters decades ago in 2 seconds.

Off (this topic) why did Smith say 10 had two regenerations?

The Master

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Off (this topic) why did Smith say 10 had two regenerations?

When he shot the regeneration energy in the hand he used one up but kept the same face, vanity issues

Frank Lee Midere

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Well I would agree with all that except the Tardis grave was his Tardis, wasn't it? The one and only. So that needs explanation. Of course Moffat can kick the can down the road, leaving the scriptwriters in 2050 to deal with it, just as he dealt with the regeneration issue caused by scriptwriters decades ago in 2 seconds.

Off (this topic) why did Smith say 10 had two regenerations?

tennant regenerated into himself

shinzon

Interrobang wrote: »

Upthread:

Ooops didnt see that

Shin

doctorwhogirl

Good few gaping plot holes alright and I'll need a day of sitting watching the entire series again to get it even semi clear in my head...

but...

I'm glad Smith is gone. I never warmed to him as a doctor. Thrilled when Capaldi's face finally appeared with accent in tow!

Just please, please PLEASE let them allow Capaldi to be a doctor of genuine gravitas (with the usual madness thrown in too!)

pixelburp

Just finished watching that. Man tears. Man tears everywhere. Oh #11 we'll never forget you. Though there's a point - should we just call him #13 now as it's technically the case or should we just go with the standard 'full' regen cycles from the show?

The initial shock of seeing Capaldi though - that man has a face perhaps not suited to the harsh, dramatic lighting of the TARDIS - it's a helluva lined face. Glad the actual regeneration didn't take long, loved the idea of it just happening in a snap.

I'm glad they decided to tie up the loose ends of the Smith run, and generally in passing too - they were there for whoever was looking out for them and didn't get in the way of the drama of it all. Does it still leave holes lying about? Sure but honestly, I find the pedantic tearing apart of plots based on the concept of time-travel utterly redundant and like trying to pick up water with a sieve. Every time you think you have a grasp of it it'll slip through your fingers again; it's a concept that's still in the realms of theoretical physics - why on earth should we expect or presume a drama scriptwriter will have a better handle of it?

martingriff

Richard wrote: »

I didn't like that - it makes it seem that the Capaldi Doctor is a different person.

A bit like Tennant's "I don't want to go" and his trip to see various people before he didn't die.

I thought it was in relation to the last special where he was allways trying to run away from his past and now he wants to remember them all

Doctor DooM

pixelburp wrote: »

I'm glad they decided to tie up the loose ends of the Smith run, and generally in passing too - they were there for whoever was looking out for them and didn't get in the way of the drama of it all. Does it still leave holes lying about? Sure but honestly, I find the pedantic tearing apart of plots based on the concept of time-travel utterly redundant and like trying to pick up water with a sieve. Every time you think you have a grasp of it it'll slip through your fingers again; it's a concept that's still in the realms of theoretical physics - why on earth should we expect or presume a drama scriptwriter will have a better handle of it?

This is always a hard one to judge, isn't it? Where do the lines of suspension of disbelief fall?

For me, I'm usually fine with the timey wimey stuff as long as I don't feel what they're doing breaches the internal logic of what's gone before. That's what snaps me out of just enjoying what's going on.

I never assumed before this episode that the Doctor that died at Trenzalore was 11, so I didn't really feel the show had cheated when he regenerated and got away.

If it had been said at the end of S8 that 11 dies there, I think I would have had a big problem with it.

Wibbs

I enjoyed it. Loved Handles. Though I thought personally it had more than a touch of the RTD Tennant regen, only speeded up. Even had a twinge of the Ecclestone regen. A little from both really. Where Smith sent Clara back home on a pretense to keep her safe and to a tower block if you don't mind. Then she comes back, twice. Beats oul Rose on that score. The goodbyes to Amy and fishfingers and custard and refs to River, the not quite regenerating but then going with sadness and a speech attached was a (much better) version of Tennants long goodbye and I don't want to go IMHO.

Again personally for me Eccy's regen was the best of the new Who. Hint of sadness, yes, but so much less fuss and much less fuss on the part of the production team saying goodbye to an actor(understandable to be fair).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qa3NM9Jhkn0

Skylinehead

SweepTheLeg wrote: »

Be honest, which parts got you choked up.

1. Handles dying
2. Clara helping him with the cracker
3. Raggedy man, goodnight
4. Matts speech about never forgetting his time as the Doctor

Anybody that doesn't say Handles dying has no soul.

SweepTheLeg

Skylinehead wrote: »

Anybody that doesn't say Handles dying has no soul.

Longest running companion, side by side with the Doctor for 300 years

pixelburp

Doctor DooM wrote: »

This is always a hard one to judge, isn't it? Where do the lines of suspension of disbelief fall?

For me, I'm usually fine with the timey wimey stuff as long as I don't feel what they're doing breaches the internal logic of what's gone before. That's what snaps me out of just enjoying what's going on.

I'd admit that I find the phrase 'timey wimey' a bit glib and over-used, but it does boil down the essence of things - this is a show about the most mind-bending and difficult scientific concept to understand - both for physicists and us ordinary folks. Trying to unspool time-travel plots? That way lies madness! Is there even any stories out there that are rock-solid in their logic? Back to the Future, 12 Monkeys, Looper, Minority Report - they all fall apart if you look too hard and too long.

Besides, and maybe this is where the long-suffering fans have a different perspective, Doctor Who has some of the worst/sketchiest/most malleable mythology going and getting aggravated[*] about the new show's relative lack of fixed continuity seems against the spirit of things somewhat. Afterall, we ignore the fact the doctor is half-human; we ignore the fact he announced he was thousands of years old back in the 3rd Doctor's era but then suddenly became ~900 years old etc. etc. The rules change all the time.


[*] I'm actually taken aback at some of the hostility aimed at Moffat by fans and watchers of the show. And it's not particular to Dr. Who either; I'm not always convinced the internet is a good thing for genre communities as it seems to magnify the intensity of debate and dissection. The levels of hyper-criticism can be scary sometimes.

Doctor DooM wrote: »

I never assumed before this episode that the Doctor that died at Trenzalore was 11, so I didn't really feel the show had cheated when he regenerated and got away.
If it had been said at the end of S8 that 11 dies there, I think I would have had a big problem with it.

Ditto - though I guess now it's a case that if & when Doctor Who is killed off permanently, he'll have to return to Trenzalore. Presumably in the interim it'll become a graveyard planet of some sort. Or! Perhaps Capaldi Doc crashes the TARDIS, it does become what we see from the previous episode & a mausoleum of sorts, with the first arc of the new Doc will be him growing a new TARDIS (it'd parallel nicely with a smilar storyline from the 8th Doctor novels)

Anyway! I'll miss Smith, I already do and still feel a bit glum about that ending, the sap that I am. I'll particularly miss these kind of exchanges:

"Emergency. You're my boyfriend."
"Ding dong! Ok, brilliant. I may be a bit rusty in some areas, but I will glance at a manual!"
"No no, not actually my boyfriend."
"Oh that was quick. It's a roller-coaster, this phonecall."

Now c'mon. I challenge anyone to find me a show that can spin out that kind of quality comedic writing and deliver it with such razorsharp timing and wit. While of course at the same time breaking your heart: the death of Handles; the entire scene when Clara finds the ancient Doctor - helping him pull the cracker creating a particular lump - was beautifully written and acted. I'm also pretty convinced #11s closing speech was Matt Smith talking, not The Doctor.

The plots may wobble, contain Red Dwarf levels of continuity, but damnit if Doctor Who can't consistently make me laugh & cry in the same moment.

Skylinehead

SweepTheLeg wrote: »

Longest running companion, side by side with the Doctor for 300 years

All I know is that I fell in love with him instantly and he was taken from me almost as instantly.

Goodnight sweet price

Killer_banana

Doctor DooM wrote: »

This is always a hard one to judge, isn't it? Where do the lines of suspension of disbelief fall?

For me, I'm usually fine with the timey wimey stuff as long as I don't feel what they're doing breaches the internal logic of what's gone before. That's what snaps me out of just enjoying what's going on.

I never assumed before this episode that the Doctor that died at Trenzalore was 11, so I didn't really feel the show had cheated when he regenerated and got away.

If it had been said at the end of S8 that 11 dies there, I think I would have had a big problem with it.

See my issue is I feel timey wimey has been overused and it just feels lazy now. I can let things slide, for example the first time timey wimey was mentioned, the Doctor having the transcript before it was written in Blink, that I can believe. But I feel to use it over and over again is lazy, like using anything. Time travel can never be explained since it doesn't really exist and you can never write a time travel plot that can 100% be clear cut and easily followed but I feel the show has abandoned any pretense of logic or the possibility of understanding any iota of how things work and, as I said it feels lazy. I might be more forgiving if other things about the writing weren't currently annoying me. I'm not saying time travel needs to be clear or make sense but I feel in the past it made some sense and it wasn't twisted to suit the plot quite so often where as now I feel it's done every episode.

As for Trenzalore, I hadn't assumed it was Matt's Doctor who died there until I found out that the Christmas special took place there. I then forgot that it never specified what number Doctor died there so I agree, it was never implied before this episode that it was Eleven's grave.

Penn

Killer_banana wrote: »

See my issue is I feel timey wimey has been overused and it just feels lazy now. I can let things slide, for example the first time timey wimey was mentioned, the Doctor having the transcript before it was written in Blink, that I can believe. But I feel to use it over and over again is lazy, like using anything. Time travel can never be explained since it doesn't really exist and you can never write a time travel plot that can 100% be clear cut and easily followed but I feel the show has abandoned any pretense of logic or the possibility of understanding any iota of how things work and, as I said it feels lazy. I might be more forgiving if other things about the writing weren't currently annoying me. I'm not saying time travel needs to be clear or make sense but I feel in the past it made some sense and it wasn't twisted to suit the plot quite so often where as now I feel it's done every episode.

As for Trenzalore, I hadn't assumed it was Matt's Doctor who died there until I found out that the Christmas special took place there. I then forgot that it never specified what number Doctor died there so I agree, it was never implied before this episode that it was Eleven's grave.

The thing about it being 11's grave though, was when the Tardis landed on Trenzalore in Name of the Doctor, one of the glazed panels above the door cracked, and that same crack was on the giant Tardis grave on Trenzalore. Plus the Tardis desktop interior was obviously 11's.

I just think Moffat needlessly wrote himself into a bit of a corner. Not nearly as much as RTD used to thankfully. But to throw in things and then having to seemingly retcon them just a few months later (technically two episodes later) goes beyond the "timey wimey" argument.

Killer_banana

Penn wrote: »

The thing about it being 11's grave though, was when the Tardis landed on Trenzalore in Name of the Doctor, one of the glazed panels above the door cracked, and that same crack was on the giant Tardis grave on Trenzalore. Plus the Tardis desktop interior was obviously 11's.

I just think Moffat needlessly wrote himself into a bit of a corner. Not nearly as much as RTD used to thankfully. But to throw in things and then having to seemingly retcon them just a few months later (technically two episodes later) goes beyond the "timey wimey" argument.

I didn't notice the crack so I can't comment. As for the desktop, different Doctor's can have the same desktop, nine and ten shared one and eleven only changed it originally because he completely destroyed the TARDIS and it has to regenerate as well. It does imply that it's the grave of a recent incarnation but Moffat loves to bait and switch. Also taking your word for the desktop because I can't remember any specific desktop (yes my memory is awful).