Drive-by shootings by British Army in Northern Ireland

Happyman42

alastair wrote: »

The point is that I'm not remotely unique in that regard.

Why did you say this about yourself? What relevance has it to the people who where shot and killed?

I never worried that they were going to shoot me on the street

alastair

Happyman42 wrote: »

Why did you say this about yourself? What relevance has it to the people who where shot and killed?

I was asked my feelings on 'a military force like that'.

I'd stop short of ascribing this group's actions to the entire military force though. I never worried that they were going to shoot me on the street, which would be the case for most people.

Happyman42

alastair wrote: »

I was asked my feelings on 'a military force like that'.

How would you have distinguished them from the regular military back then?

The BA where responsible for the shooting of 27 children under the age of 18 alone by the end of 72 not to mention adults I'm curious about how you arrive at your contention that most people had 'no worries' about being shot on the street.

And again, what relevance does it have anyway?

TOMASJ

alastair wrote: »

Well, it's not a good thing now, is it? I'd stop short of ascribing this group's actions to the entire military force though. I never worried that they were going to shoo
t me on the street, which would be the case for most people.

Would you describe those guys as terrorists,

K-9

crusher000 wrote: »

How often you hear the term Army of a legimate Government as if they're on some sort of moral high ground.

Well that's the moral dilemma, either they were legitimate security forces and therefor subject to higher moral grounds than say the IRA, or they weren't, and actions like these were to be expected in a war.

junder

Yet another book about British army death squads this time it's really real

seamus

K-9 wrote: »

Well that's the moral dilemma, either they were legitimate security forces and therefor subject to higher moral grounds than say the IRA, or they weren't, and actions like these were to be expected in a war.

Indeed, interesting to hear the director of the documentary discuss it this evening on the radio.

Apparently he didn't set out to "expose" anything. Instead one of the individuals from the force involved contacted him to tell the story because he thought it was only right that people heard about it - so they could claim credit for the work they put in suppressing the actions of the IRA, saving lives, and ultimately helping to bring about peace in NI.

Goes to illustrate that in combat moreso than most other contexts, what is ethical and right depends entirely on which side you're on. And for those on neither side, nobody appears to be acting ethically at all.

TOMASJ

Regarding Panarama show tonight

What a gang of arrogant feckers they have no regets and would do it all again all they done was kill inocent men and claim that they helped to save lives,



Baroness Nula O Loane has this evening called for a public inquiry into the brit army death squads that murdered people in belfast in 72 after the revelations on panaroma tv progamme tonight,

I hope she is still as popular with the posters that were lauding her in other posts

K-9

TOMASJ wrote: »

Regarding Panarama show tonight

What a gang of arrogant feckers they have no regets and would do it all again all they done was kill inocent men and claim that they helped to save lives,



Baroness Nula O Loane has this evening called for a public inquiry into the brit army death squads that murdered people in belfast in 72 after the revelations on panaroma tv progamme tonight,

I hope she is still as popular with the posters that were lauding her in other posts

Why wouldn't she be?

TOMASJ

K-9 wrote: »

Why wouldn't she be?

Any views on the rest of the post,

And we can let the posters i am referring to answer for themselves

K-9

TOMASJ wrote: »

Any views on the rest of the post,

Not in contention whatsoever, which is why I didn't comment on it.

And we can let the posters i am referring to answer for themselves

Well as somebody who did put weight on O Loane's comments previously, you should really actually be more specific if you want particular posters to reply. That's why putting up comments that hang in the ether like that aren't much use.

TOMASJ

K-9 wrote: »

Not in contention whatsoever, which is why I didn't comment on it.



Well as somebody who did put weight on O Loane's comments previously, you should really actually be more specific if you want particular posters to reply. That's why putting up comments that hang in the ether like that aren't much use.

When Nula O Loane was speaking on a recent tv progamme she was very popular with some posters here, because what she was saying was suiting their political views,
So my point is now she is calling for an inquirey into the british army murder gangs will she be as popular with them same posters,

Cant make it any simpiler.

Happyman42

TOMASJ wrote: »

When Nula O Loane was speaking on a recent tv progamme she was very popular with some posters here, because what she was saying was suiting their political views,
So my point is now she is calling for an inquirey into the british army murder gangs will she be as popular with them same posters,

Cant make it any simpiler.

The question is, why did Nuala have to wait for a TV programme to look for an investigation in to all of this?

K-9

Happyman42 wrote: »

The question is, why did Nuala have to wait for a TV programme to look for an investigation in to all of this?

She sanctioned a fair few investigations in her time, I doubt she just waited for a TV programme or something as facetious as that.

Happyman42

K-9 wrote: »

She sanctioned a fair few investigations in her time, I doubt she just waited for a TV programme or something as facetious as that.

So she has called for an investigation into this before now? Link?

K-9

Happyman42 wrote: »

So she has called for an investigation into this before now? Link?

Can we rewind to 10 minutes ago? I asked a question, can you answer that question first before setting a question that suits your agenda? Don't lose the run of yourself.

Happyman42

K-9 wrote: »

Can we rewind to 10 minutes ago? I asked a question, can you answer that question first before setting a question that suits your agenda? Don't lose the run of yourself.

Excuse me, you asked me a question?

K-9

Happyman42 wrote: »

Excuse me, you asked me a question?

Sorry, I answered your initial question.

You then asked another question.

Why is the sky blue Daddy?

Happyman42

K-9 wrote: »

Sorry, I answered your initial question.

You then asked another question.

Why is the sky blue Daddy?

You said as part of that answer that you doubted she 'had to wait for a tv programme'
I asked where she had called for an inquiry into this and asked you to link to it.
I know the sky is blue, I still don't know where or when she called for an inquiry into information that was already in the public domain.

K-9

Happyman42 wrote: »

You said as part of that answer that you doubted she 'had to wait for a tv programme'
I asked where she had called for an inquiry into this and asked you to link to it.
I know the sky is blue, I still don't know where or when she called for an inquiry into information that was already in the public domain.

You've gone way into another territory, I don't have a clue what you are on about.

The question is, why did Nuala have to wait for a TV programme to look for an investigation in to all of this?

I've gone back, why don't you spell out what you mean rather than mystic meg other posters answers.

Happyman42

K-9 wrote: »

You've gone way into another territory, I don't have a clue what you are on about.



I've gone back, why don't you spell out what you mean rather than mystic meg other posters answers.

You said:

She sanctioned a fair few investigations in her time, I doubt she just waited for a TV programme or something as facetious as that.

I asked, where has she called for an inquiry into this before the TV programme. If she has called for one before now then I will withdraw my original question, which was;

why did Nuala have to wait for a TV programme to look for an investigation in to all of this?

Simple question.


*maybe have another look after you have slept.

RDM_83 again

K-9 wrote: »

Well that's the moral dilemma, either they were legitimate security forces and therefor subject to higher moral grounds than say the IRA, or they weren't, and actions like these were to be expected in a war.

If its war though or insurrection you declare martial law, this would have legitimized calls for intervention by the UN and focused more international attention on the situation.

It can't be avoided that this was the army of the state killing its own citizens in cold blood, whether or not the population in the area regards the army as legitimate is a distraction as the state (which should have control of the army in any functioning democracy) claims this population as its own with all the rights that this entails.

Can anyone on either side thats had an interest or lived in NI actually hold their hands up and say they are surprised at these revelations though?

K-9

Happyman42 wrote: »

You said:


I asked, where has she called for an inquiry into this before the TV programme. If she has called for one before now then I will withdraw my original question, which was;




Simple question.


*maybe have another look after you have slept.

No harm to you, I'm not getting into mental gymnastics. I'm quite happy in the point I made. I'm sick of zero game Northern politics, Southern politics is bad enough.

RDM_83 again wrote: »

If its war though or insurrection you declare martial law, this would have legitimized calls for intervention by the UN and focused more international attention on the situation.

It can't be avoided that this was the army of the state killing its own citizens in cold blood, whether or not the population in the area regards the army as legitimate is a distraction as the state (which should have control of the army in any functioning democracy) claims this population as its own with all the rights that this entails.

Can anyone on either side thats had an interest or lived in NI actually hold their hands up and say they are surprised at these revelations though?

I'm not surprised at all, have we learned anything new?

Is this anything different from the Disappeared programme? Nobody will say it is just ask questions.

I'm shocked the BBC aired this programme, anti Republican mouth piece. That's the mentality you're dealing with.

Happyman42

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Can anyone on either side thats had an interest or lived in NI actually hold their hands up and say they are surprised at these revelations though?

Spent half my life trying to explain to those in denial what it was like. It's just a pity it wasn't broadcast before the poppy fascists took to the internet, might have given them some perspective on why some Irish people would find it a symbol of hypocrisy.

K-9

Happyman42 wrote: »

Spent half my life trying to explain to those in denial what it was like. It's just a pity it wasn't broadcast before the poppy fascists took to the internet, might have given them some perspective on why some Irish people would find it a symbol of hypocrisy.

What universe are you on lad?

Happyman42

K-9 wrote: »

What universe are you on lad?

Don't engage if you don't understand the point, isn't that what the charter says?

K-9

Happyman42 wrote: »

Don't engage if you don't understand the point, isn't that what the charter says?

I don't think so.

Poppy fascists?

Happyman42

K-9 wrote: »

Poppy fascists?

What about them?

K-9

Happyman42 wrote: »

What about them?

You brought the term in. Can you kindly explain what the term means?

Happyman42

K-9 wrote: »

You brought the term in. Can you kindly explain what the term means?

Google it. I'm tired, going to bed.

TOMASJ

Listening to the Nolan show today callers are comming on with storys of people being killed in drive by shootings by the same guys, one a lad of 15 , what we heard on Panaroma last night was only the tip of the iceberg where british murder squads were involved

alastair

TOMASJ wrote: »

When Nula O Loane was speaking on a recent tv progamme she was very popular with some posters here, because what she was saying was suiting their political views,
So my point is now she is calling for an inquirey into the british army murder gangs will she be as popular with them same posters,

Cant make it any simpiler.

Obviously it needs to be a little simpler for you to follow the dynamic of the discussion.

I was one of those defending the impartiality and professionalism of Nuala O'Loan. You have taken it upon yourself to ascribe some sort of political agenda to that defence. Now that's a personal interpretation, no doubt inspired by your own ideology, but that doesn't make it remotely real.

You'll probably find that the vast majority of those who had faith in her abilities as an ombundsman, would be equally supportive of her investigating this matter. Of course, she isn't going to investigate, but I'd hope for an equally impartial and professional investigation from the appropriate body.

alastair

Happyman42 wrote: »

The question is, why did Nuala have to wait for a TV programme to look for an investigation in to all of this?

For the same reason as Enda needed to see the programme before deciding what the response should be. She hasn't got a crystal ball either.

alastair

K-9 wrote: »

You brought the term in. Can you kindly explain what the term means?

I'd say it falls into the same category as 'self-loathing' Malachi O'Doherty; a half-baked term of abuse, without any actual substance. There's a pattern emerging here.

Happyman42

alastair wrote: »

For the same reason as Enda needed to see the programme before deciding what the response should be. She hasn't got a crystal ball either.

Are you saying that some of this information was NOT in the public domain before the programme? Are you happy that a Taoiseach and an Ombudsman would have to wait for a TV programme before acting?

alastair

Happyman42 wrote: »

Are you saying that some of this information was NOT in the public domain before the programme? Are you happy that a Taoiseach and an Ombudsman would have to wait for a TV programme before acting?

The new evidence wasn't in the public domain - no. Without that new evidence you've only got conjecture. I don't expect anyone to act on 40 year old conjecture. Same story with the Disappeared programme.

Happyman42

alastair wrote: »

The new evidence wasn't in the public domain - no. Without that new evidence you've only got conjecture. I don't expect anyone to act on 40 year old conjecture. Same story with the Disappeared programme.

Nuala had no problems investigating Jean McConvilles case on the basis of 'some' info and a lot of 'conjecture'.

alastair

Happyman42 wrote: »

Nuala had no problems investigating Jean McConvilles case on the basis of 'some' info and a lot of 'conjecture'.

An investigation prompted by new evidence - not old conjecture. See how that works?

Happyman42

alastair wrote: »

An investigation prompted by new evidence - not old conjecture. See how that works?

An investigation 'prompted' by a complaint about the police investigation made by Jean McConvilles children, you mean.

alastair

Happyman42 wrote: »

An investigation 'prompted' by a complaint about the police investigation made by Jean McConvilles children, you mean.

And the discovery of the body of course.

guttenberg

Was anyone else surprised the Four Square Laundry wasn't mentioned? Disappointing watch, to me it didn't really offer anything that's not already in the public domain.

Nodin

guttenberg wrote: »

Was anyone else surprised the Four Square Laundry wasn't mentioned? .........

It's presumably less easy to be triumphalist over a defeat.

Happyman42

alastair wrote: »

And the discovery of the body of course.

No, the Ombudsman carried out her investigation on foot of a complaint by the family.

The complaint:

that the Royal Ulster Constabulary failed to investigate the abduction of Mrs McConville. This complaint is substantiated.

The finding of the body, while mentioned had no bearing on her report's findings.

alastair

Happyman42 wrote: »

No, the Ombudsman carried out her investigation on foot of a complaint by the family.


The finding of the body, while mentioned had no bearing on her report's findings.

Of course it did. Until there was proof of her abduction and murder, it was treated as a missings persons case - which wouldn't have warranted an investigation by the ombundsman.

Mr.Micro

guttenberg wrote: »

Was anyone else surprised the Four Square Laundry wasn't mentioned? Disappointing watch, to me it didn't really offer anything that's not already in the public domain.

It's no surprise to me or many others. What is the point in raking all this stuff up now? Is there any difference to all the victims families of all the other murders and bombings, who have had to suck it up, and watch the murderers being released, so that we can have peace? I certainly do not want to hear any moral outrage from the IRA or the like, over the matter, as in illegally killing people, the hypocrisy might kill me.

Happyman42

alastair wrote: »

Of course it did. Until there was proof of her abduction and murder, it was treated as a missings persons case - which wouldn't have warranted an investigation by the ombundsman.

I'm not sure which part of the 'The Ombudsman acted on foot of a complaint by members of JMcC's family' you don't understand.

That report is extremely critical of the RUC's failure to investigate from the original disappearance WHEN THERE WAS NO BODY.

That the Royal Ulster Constabulary failed to investigate the abduction of Mrs McConville. This complaint is substantiated.

You really are stretching to find excuses there Alastair.

alastair

Happyman42 wrote: »

I'm not sure which part of the 'The Ombudsman acted on foot of a complaint by members of JMcC's family' you don't understand.

That report is extremely critical of the RUC's failure to investigate from the original disappearance WHEN THERE WAS NO BODY.

You really are stretching to find excuses there Alastair.

Obviously without the body, there was no case for the ombundsman to pursue - it hadn't actually been proven to be an abduction. The family approached the ombudsman for sure, but hadn't any prospect of an investigation until the body had been found. New evidence - not 40 year old conjecture.

R P McMurphy

Mr.Micro wrote: »

It's no surprise to me or many others. What is the point in raking all this stuff up now? Is there any difference to all the victims families of all the other murders and bombings, who have had to suck it up, and watch the murderers being released, so that we can have peace? I certainly do not want to hear any moral outrage from the IRA or the like, over the matter, as in illegally killing people, the hypocrisy might kill me.

And as for the innocent civilians killed? Shut up it was 40 years ago?

Mr.Micro

R P McMurphy wrote: »

And as for the innocent civilians killed? Shut up it was 40 years ago?

I posted that people have had to suck it up for what the IRA and UVF did so what is the difference?

Crooked Jack

guttenberg wrote: »

Was anyone else surprised the Four Square Laundry wasn't mentioned? Disappointing watch, to me it didn't really offer anything that's not already in the public domain.

Wasnt that the FRU, not the MRF?
Christ, Irish history is like a dyslexic alphabet.

Anyway, the thing that really struck me about last night's programme was the attitude to these killings, not just from the clearly remorseless MRF men themselves, but from the British ruling classes high up in the military and government.
It's pretty clear that catholic, protestant, unionist, nationalist, republican, loyalist, whatever; they regard us all as thick paddies. Savages from the colonies who need manners put on them.
I'll never understand loyalty to a system with such disdain for its subjects.

As for the programme itself, I felt it went out of its way to almost justify the actions of this unit and that weir went awful easy on the MRF guys he did interview.