Nigel Dodds calls Sinn Fein "Failures and they know it"

SoulandForm

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/sinn-f%C3%A9in-are-failures-and-they-know-it-dup-deputy-leader-says-1.1604652

What are we to make of this?

Is this him just pandering to the least thinking of the Unionist community or is this a genuine attack on Sinn Fein and signalling a break within the DUP from the "chuckle brothers" era?

Hannibal

SoulandForm wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/sinn-f%C3%A9in-are-failures-and-they-know-it-dup-deputy-leader-says-1.1604652

What are we to make of this?

Is this him just pandering to the least thinking of the Unionist community or is this a genuine attack on Sinn Fein and signalling a break within the DUP from the "chuckle brothers" era?

It's not a genuine attack on Sinn Fein at all, I think Sinn Fein will laugh it off and most right thinking Unionists will also see through it. It's Dodds basically playing to the masses and telling them what they want to hear at this conference rather than putting his thinking hat on as a leading politicians and actually realistically addressing the flags and marching issues and showing actual leadership. Leadership from unionist politicians has been severely lacking in the last year and it is this that is contributing to the unrest at the heart of these communities.

Maybe instead of mentioning "defeating the IRA" he should also mention and condemn the fact that the UVF have been proved to have broken their ceasefire and are not engaging with decommissioning.

For the record and to Mr Dodds the IRA were not defeated, it was admitted by the British MOD that it was a military stalemate between the IRA and the British state forces.

Karl Stein

Good old Paisleyesque triumphalism. No more freedom to march wherever the hell they want for Loyalist bands and Orangemen. No more Protestant/Orange domination of the public institutions. RUC effectively disbanded. Public apologies by the British PM for BA killings. Former BA soldiers being investigated for murder. No more 24/7 territory marking on BCH. The Protestant state for a Protestant people is well and truly history and it ain't coming back.

As for Dodds' banging on about liberal democracy, well, it's a bit rich seeing as the DUP was instrumental in subverting and preventing it in the early 70's. Also since when did the DUP become a champion of liberalism? Many of the 'Save Ulster form Sodomy' views held by a faction of DUP politicians belong in the 19th Century.

The decline of cultural Unionism/Loyalism continues apace led into the abyss by woeful 'leaders' like Nigel Dodds. Dodds would better serve his constituency by trying to get young people into education, training, and jobs rather than winding them up over flegs and marching.

Nodin

SoulandForm wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/sinn-f%C3%A9in-are-failures-and-they-know-it-dup-deputy-leader-says-1.1604652

What are we to make of this?

Is this him just pandering to the least thinking of the Unionist community or is this a genuine attack on Sinn Fein and signalling a break within the DUP from the "chuckle brothers" era?

'That time of year again'. Were a DUP conference to pass without any such remark, it would be noteworthy.

Dubhlinner

Whilst it is depressing that the kind of people in charge of Northern Ireland are using language like this there's not much you can deny in

"Republicanism has failed, nationalism is struggling to keep a united Ireland on the political agenda, and the IRA is defeated"

Karl Stein

Dubhlinner wrote: »

"Republicanism has failed, nationalism is struggling to keep a united Ireland on the political agenda,

And yet the Unionists refuse to countenance a border poll they're so damned paranoid about the idea being alive in the public consciousness.

and the IRA is defeated

It's widely accepted that there was a stalemate. The PIRA weren't going to remove the British presence by force and the BA weren't going to be able to stop the PIRA.

An internal British army document examining 37 years of deployment in Northern Ireland contains the claim by one expert that it failed to defeat the IRA.

news.bbc.co.uk

alastair

Carlos Roca wrote: »

It's widely accepted that there was a stalemate. The PIRA weren't going to remove the British presence by force and the BA weren't going to be able to stop the PIRA.

From the document (and 'one expert') the BBC link refers to:

By 1980 almost all the military structures which eventually defeated PIRA were in place.

van Creveld has said that the British Army is unique in Northern Ireland in its success against an irregular force. It should be recognised that the Army did not 'win' in any recognisable way; rather it achieved its desired end-state, which allowed a political process to be established without unacceptable levels of intimidation. Security force operations suppressed the level of violence to a level which the population could live with, and with which the RUC and later the PSNI could cope. The violence was reduced to an extent which made it clear to the PIRA that they would not win through violence. This is a major achievement, and one with which the security forces from all three Services, with the Army in the lead, should be entirely satisfied. It took a long time but, as van Crefeld said, that success is unique.

Dubhlinner

Carlos Roca wrote: »

And yet the Unionists refuse to countenance a border poll they're so damned paranoid about the idea being alive in the public consciousness.

I find that strange myself. If I were a northern unionist I'd be delighted to deal a further blow to republicanism

It's widely accepted that there was a stalemate. The PIRA weren't going to remove the British presence by force and the BA weren't going to be able to stop the PIRA.

They destroyed their arms without achieving any of their goals. British army still there and IRA gone. Call it whatever you like that looks like defeat to me

SoulandForm

Dubhlinner wrote: »

I find that strange myself. If I were a northern unionist I'd be delighted to deal a further blow to republicanism

They destroyed their arms without achieving any of their goals. British army still there and IRA gone. Call it whatever you like that looks like defeat to me

Its the Northern Ireland Office and not Unionists (or Sinn Fein) who get to decide about the border poll; a serious flaw in the GFA which was overlooked at the time.

The Provisional's were not defeated the way that ETA basically is though or the Shining Path and the Tamil Tigers were; the fact they have legally held weapons now says that quite clearly.

alastair

SoulandForm wrote: »

The Provisional's were not defeated the way that ETA basically is though or the Shining Path and the Tamil Tigers were; the fact they have legally held weapons now says that quite clearly.

This 'legally held weapons' business is quite the red herring that needs to be nailed. Anyone of a certain age in NI can apply to the PSNI for a licence to hold a firearm. It's got nothing to do with the success, failure, defeat, or victory of the IRA or any other paramilitary group in NI. It's also possible for an ETA member to legally hold a gun in Spain too for that matter.

SoulandForm

alastair wrote: »

This 'legally held weapons' business is quite the red herring that needs to be nailed. Anyone of a certain age in NI can apply to the PSNI for a licence to hold a firearm. It's got nothing to do with the success, failure, defeat, or victory of the IRA or any other paramilitary group in NI. It's also possible for an ETA member to legally hold a gun in Spain too for that matter.

Batasuna is illegal in Spain-Provisional Sinn Fein hold government offices in Northern Ireland. Massive difference right there.

The legally held weapons business as you put is far from a red herring if you know anything about the history of getting hold of legal weapons in Northern Ireland; and without some sort of guarrante by the British in this regard they would have never decommissioned.

alastair

SoulandForm wrote: »

Batasuna is illegal in Spain-Provisional Sinn Fein hold government offices in Northern Ireland. Massive difference right there.

And why is that? Because ETA/Batasuna haven't given up a campaign of violence. SF gave up that strategy and goal.

SoulandForm wrote: »

The legally held weapons business as you put is far from a red herring if you know anything about the history of getting hold of legal weapons in Northern Ireland; and without some sort of guarrante by the British in this regard they would have never decommissioned.

Again - there's nothing special on offer to the IRA or any other paramilitary group here. A PSNI decision to licence a firearm bears no relationship to the success or failure of any paramilitary group. To pretend it has, is a nonsense.

HansHolzel

From the Paras stopping Billy Wright's Nazis at Drumcree (1998) to the flag coming down off City Hall (2012) ("Surrender" - Billy Hutchinson, having dropped the 'No' ;-), it's more and more like the Christmas song says

Sleigh bells ring, are you listening
The union flag has gone missing
Huns smash up the town as the crown rag comes down
Walking in a Fenian wonderland

Census results now show 48% Protestant and 45% Catholic. Power-sharing and the flag issue hark back to what Parnell thought of the 1881 Land Act. It didn’t abolish landlordism but made landlordism intolerable for the landlords.

As for the Brits still paying for the place, it's just a case of 'You broke it, you own it' ;-)

As for sovereignty, when £1 = €1 in Norn Iron shops, you know it's the consumer is sovereign.

SoulandForm

alastair wrote: »

And why is that? Because ETA/Batasuna haven't given up a campaign of violence. SF gave up that strategy and goal.

Again - there's nothing special on offer to the IRA or any other paramilitary group here. A PSNI decision to licence a firearm bears no relationship to the success or failure of any paramilitary group. To pretend it has, is a nonsense.

Batasuna never engaged in violence-it just refused to condemn the ETA and upheld that armed struggle was legitimate. The relationship between them and ETA is not the same as that which appears to have existed between the Provisional IRA and Provisional Sinn Fein.

ETA has been on cease fire for some time now.

They are in the position they are because they were defeated in a way that the Provsionals werent.

Im not sure if you are trolling on the question of legally held guns at this stage but I would say that and the Mc Bride principles being officially adopted were two major victories of the Provos.

alastair

SoulandForm wrote: »

Batasuna never engaged in violence-it just refused to condemn the ETA and upheld that armed struggle was legitimate. The relationship between them and ETA is not the same as that which appears to have existed between the Provisional IRA and Provisional Sinn Fein.

A relationship that excluded SF from any chance of regional governance until they gave up on a strategy of violence. It took 13 years from the IRA ceasefire until SF got a look at regional government. By that reckoning Batasuna could be in with a shout in a few years.

SoulandForm wrote: »

I would say that and the Mc Bride principles being officially adopted were two major victories of the Provos.

The McBride Principles?! I guess you mean the Mitchell principles - which were no victory for the IRA. The gun licence thing is simply daft.

HansHolzel

alastair wrote: »

It took 13 years from the IRA ceasefire until SF got a look at regional government.

Again, this is an outright falsehood.

The IRA permanent ceasefire dates from July 1997.

A full Executive took office on 2 December 1999, comprising the following parties, in order of size:

Ulster Unionist Party (4 ministers)
SDLP (3 ministers)
DUP (2 ministers)
Sinn Féin (2 ministers)

Sunnyisland

Nigel Dodds telling his party faithfull that nothing has changed,SF have lost,IRA is defeated,
Suppose if I were a Unionist leader I would have to be saying the same things, there is none so blind as those who will not see.

SoulandForm

alastair wrote: »

The McBride Principles?! I guess you mean the Mitchell principles - which were no victory for the IRA. The gun licence thing is simply daft.

The McBride Principles had to do with employment and discrimination- nothing to do with the Mitchell Principles. Im surprised that someone with obviously strong views on the north has not come across them in his reading.

alastair

HansHolzel wrote: »

Again, this is an outright falsehood.

The IRA permanent ceasefire dates from July 1997.

A full Executive took office on 2 December 1999, comprising the following parties, in order of size:

Ulster Unionist Party (4 ministers)
SDLP (3 ministers)
DUP (2 ministers)
Sinn Féin (2 ministers)

heh - that lasted a couple of months. The Shinners were, in practical terms, not in office until 2007, and only had any sort of real governance role from 2011 onwards.

alastair

SoulandForm wrote: »

The McBride Principles had to do with employment and discrimination- nothing to do with the Mitchell Principles. Im surprised that someone with obviously strong views on the north has not come across them in his reading.

But the McBride Principles had nothing to do with the Provos. I'm aware of them alright - but the supposed connection has me baffled.

HansHolzel

alastair wrote: »

heh - that lasted a couple of months. The Shinners were, in practical terms, not in office until 2007, and only had any sort of real governance role from 2011 onwards.

heh indeed, spoofer

alastair

HansHolzel wrote: »

heh indeed, spoofer

Perhaps you'd like to point to the evidence of their role in government prior to 2007? They spent most of that time out in the cold.

HansHolzel

I suppose you'd like to include the two 24-hour suspensions at Stormont (10 August and 22 September 2001) in your measurements of the "cold".

You're just a lying troll.


MOD NOTE: Banned 1-week.

alastair

HansHolzel wrote: »

I suppose you'd like to include the two 24-hour suspensions at Stormont (10 August and 22 September 2001) in your measurements of the "cold".

You're just a lying troll.

That evidence of their role prior to 2007, when you're ready?

HansHolzel

To return to one of your outright falsehoods/lies on which you were caught out.

The IRA permanent ceasefire dates from July 1997.

A full Executive took office on 2 December 1999, comprising the following parties, in order of size:

Ulster Unionist Party (4 ministers)
SDLP (3 ministers)
DUP (2 ministers)
Sinn Féin (2 ministers)

Fact, evidence, you know, those words you repeat without knowing what they mean.

alastair

HansHolzel wrote: »

To return to one of your outright falsehoods/lies on which you were caught out.

The IRA permanent ceasefire dates from July 1997.

A full Executive took office on 2 December 1999, comprising the following parties, in order of size:

Ulster Unionist Party (4 ministers)
SDLP (3 ministers)
DUP (2 ministers)
Sinn Féin (2 ministers)

Fact, evidence, you know, those words you repeat without knowing what they mean.

That evidence of their role prior to 2007, when you're ready?

HansHolzel

Simple

alastair

HansHolzel wrote: »

Simple

I'd have thought so - but so far you've produced zilch. If they were involved in governing prior to 2007 - where's the evidence?

TOMASJ

Must have been that brick on the head at one of the that fleg protest in Belfast that has poor old Niigel waffling

Happyman42

"In a statement issued on Friday, an Army spokesman said: "This publication considers the high level general issues that might be applicable to any future counter-terrorist campaign that the British Armed Forces might have to undertake. It is critically important to consider what was learned by those who served in Northern Ireland."

That is a thought looking for a spine to send shivers down as they have learned absolutely nothing

timthumbni

So in a party conference they slag their rival party. Call the cops please. Hardly a big deal. Must be a slow news day.

This happens in political party conferences throughout the world. It's no biggie. Better than shooting and bombing each other eh?

NIMAN

I think our Nigel would need to look up the definition of 'failures' in the dictionary, because even the most anti-Shinner would have to say that they have been very successful as a political party.

tdv123

You'd think someone would of thrown a brick at this guys head by now........oh wait.

tdv123

Isn't he the guy who got hit in the head with a brick by his own supporters? Maybe he should take a look in the mirror.

tdv123

double post sorry