Ronaldo must be world's greatest player at present.

Skylinehead

bucketybuck wrote: »

You think you are making a point here, but the reality is that Xavi and Iniesta will be classed as two of the greatest of all time in a way that Rooney, Tevez, Di Maria or Higuain could only dream off.

Funny that you missed out on Ozil and Scholes there. Wonder why?

bullvine

JaMarcus Hustle wrote: »

Again, you make it sound like Ronaldo has had it tough.

He played alongside Ozil who had the most assists of anyone in Europe over the final 3 years he was with Madrid. 91 assists. Di Maria has 55 assists since he joined Madrid. Rooney had ~60 assists during Ronaldo's last 4 years at United.

Will they be remembered as fondly as Xavi or Iniesta? Probably not, but they were very talented, very creative players who helped Ronaldo the same way that Xavi, Iniesta and co. have helped Messi.

Ridiculous argument.

I can't agree with Ridiculous. Messi spent most of his life at Barca, building the relationship with the team and Pep. Hes never known change. Hes had a fantastic foundation for his career in a very stable environment. Him and Barca are like family everyone knows this.

The relationship he has with Xavi/Iniesta on the pitch is incredible, its telepathic, its far beyond anything that Ronaldo has had at United or Real.

Turtwig

The point about Messi moving to another club is moot. Any club that gets Messi will, if they have any brains, utilise the team to the get maximum out of Messi. So unless it's a Trapattoni like team, the team will always be built around Messi. And *shocker* the same will happen for any club Ronaldo goes to. Those two are in a league of their own so it'd be farcical to suggest not letting them loose to their full potential. They need to go somewhere where there is incompetent management and team organisation. Which will likely never happen.

Turtwig

Skylinehead wrote: »

Funny that you missed out on Ozil and Scholes there. Wonder why?

Didn't Xavi regard Scholes as one of his role models. Something along the lines "If I'm anything like him, I'll be happy." [Paraphrased, likely badly.]

Skylinehead

Jernal wrote: »

Didn't Xavi regard Scholes as one of his role models. Something along the lines "If I'm anything like him, I'll be happy." [Paraphrased, likely badly.]

Exactly. Scholes is a legend, so I'm not sure why bucketybuck left him out. Obviously because it didn't suit his argument.

bucketybuck

Skylinehead wrote: »

Exactly. Scholes is a legend, so I'm not sure why bucketybuck left him out. Obviously because it didn't suit his argument.

:rolleyes: My argument stands on its merits regardless of what list of names you come up with. I didn't leave anybody out, I just didn't list every name quoted because it doesn't matter, that wasn't the point.

Of that list Scholes can quite rightly be considered one of the greatest of all time, (Ozil most certainly is not). But Scholes did not play with Ronaldo for over ten years and develop the playing relationship that Messi has with Xavi and Iniesta.

What would Messi have scored without Xavi and Iniesta? Nobody can say.

What would Ronaldo have scored without Rooney and Scholes? Hundreds. We can tell that.

Skylinehead

bucketybuck wrote: »

What would Ronaldo have scored without Rooney and Scholes? Hundreds. We can tell that.

We can tell that? He didn't score hundreds with them, so why would he score hundreds without them? And I'm not sure why you're discounting Ozil, he had the highest assists in Europe for 3 years while Ronaldo was there, so he was clearly getting the service.

shrewdness

I think some people are missing the point about the prospect of Messi playing at a different club. I don't think anyone is suggesting Ronaldo hasn't played with fantastic players at Utd and Real, that would be ridiculous. And I don't think anyone thinks Messi wouldn't be brilliant in another league - that would also be ridiculous.

But the fact remains you can't compare how their respective teams have been built around Messi and Ronaldo. Yes, any team with one of the two will shape their team to get the best out of them, like Utd and Real have done with Ronaldo. But that's very different to Messi's football upbringing, having been took to Barca as a kid, having been developed in the Barca system alongside future teammates, and given his potential being made the team's focal point at such a young age. It's a different situation to that of Ronaldo, this is of course no slight on Messi, it's just the different paths they've taken.

I don't think you can blame anyone for being curious of how Messi would fare elsewhere. I'd love to see him take on a new challenge, just out of interest to see how he'd do in a different league, another system, new teammates. Not that I think he wouldn't perform, far from it, a player like Messi would excel wherever he goes. I don't expect to ever see this though, and you could hardly blame him. Barca isn't a bad place to be, he's had great success there and will likely continue to do so.

Super-Rush

Suarez is the best player in the world right now.

bullvine

Super-Rush wrote: »

Suarez is the best player in the world right now.

Course he is

Skylinehead

Super-Rush wrote: »

Suarez is the best player in the world right now.

Or is it Aguero? :pac:

Fuzzy_Dunlop

Shane Long is the best player in the world right now.

LuckyLloyd

Andersonisgod wrote: »

I honestly don't hate Ronaldo and he's an outstanding player at a huge club. A sublime talent, and a goal scoring machine. But he isn't Messi, who, for me, is peerless.

He's one of the two greatest footballers to ever walk the earth. 'Outstanding' doesn't cover it.

Seriously like, these two are way out on their own level. Their production is, simply put, unprecedented. Maradona was brilliant in a relatively exceptional all time league and a big game performer, but he never dominated to the extent these two have the last six years or so.

To try and make out that Messi is substantially better than Ronaldo (or vice versa) is incredibly silly. But people can't resist being silly on this topic it seems.

LuckyLloyd

Also, the Portuguese national team are hardly no hopers. He caught the end of the golden generation and has the likes of Nani, Coentrao, Pepe, Moutinho and Meireles to keep him company at the moment. They have a pool of players we could only dream of.

IvySlayer

Ronaldo is on another planet to Suarez tbf

Ronaldo is currently the best, has been for most of this year, Messi could easily overtake him again when fit and playing.

sReq | uTeK

IvySlayer wrote: »

Ronaldo is on another planet to Suarez tbf

Ronaldo is currently the best, has been for most of this year, Messi could easily overtake him again when fit and playing.

The way you put it you assume messi just needs to show up, he doesn't.
there is nothing between the 2, if Ronaldo was as admirable as messi on the pitch I don't think we'd even be having this discussion.

People want to downgrade ronaldo and its mostly as a result of their dislike to his on the field antics, which aren't even that bad, yet players like Ribery who roll around 45 times after a tackle get accolades beyond belief.

Madness.

Too Tough To Die

Both players at their best - Messi is a clear step above Ronaldo. He can do things Ronaldo simply can't, also brings the best out of others to an extent Ronaldo never has. So much more to his game than Ronaldo.

That said, i hope Ronaldo wins the Balon d'or as he deserves it. He might not have been better than Messi for most of 2013, may have won less trophies but that performance against Sweden was absolutely phenomenal.

dundalkfc10

Too Tough To Die wrote: »

Both players at their best - Messi is a clear step above Ronaldo. He can do things Ronaldo simply can't, also brings the best out of others to an extent Ronaldo never has. So much more to his game than Ronaldo.

That said, i hope Ronaldo wins the Balon d'or as he deserves it. He might not have been better than Messi for most of 2013, may have won less trophies but that performance against Sweden was absolutely phenomenal.

Ronaldo can do things that Messi cant aswell!

If thats your opinion (which i disagree with completely having seen both many times over 2013) how can you say you hope he wins it if you think Messi has been better?

MD1990

something that is overlooked with Messi
is that with Barca he has Xavi & Iniesta who have competed for the Ballon D'or as well
Ronaldo is not in as good as team in Real Madrid

cathalio11

MD1990 wrote: »

something that is overlooked with Messi
is that with Barca he has Xavi & Iniesta who have competed for the Ballon D'or as well
Ronaldo is not in as good as team in Real Madrid

Before I say this, I felt Messi was the superior player last year and this year there's no doubt that it is Ronaldo.

However, Ronaldo did have Ozil behind him who had more assists than each of the two you mentioned, maybe even put together.

And also, Messi scored a lot of individual goals and magical goals. So I think it's unfair to say that.

When comparing the two, I wouldn't really draw too many comparisons between the creative flair behind them because their individual qualities speak for themselves. But I understand the logic behind what you're saying.

Too Tough To Die

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

Ronaldo can do things that Messi cant aswell!

If thats your opinion (which i disagree with completely having seen both many times over 2013) how can you say you hope he wins it if you think Messi has been better?

Simple. Messi has been hampered by injuries of late and Ronaldo has been phenomenal. The high spot against Sweden was higher than any of Messi's high spots this year.

It's the Sweden tie that separates the two for me this year. He needed that after the disappointing performances in big games against Atletico and Barca.

Rayne Wooney

Ronaldo was only developing when he played with Scholes who was coming to the end of his career.

Alonso and the others mentioned don't come near Xavi and Iniesta

Messi has always played for a superior team, possibly a contender for the greatest team ever at a certain stage, and also at international level. It's really amazing that Ronaldo has kept on his coattails and surpassed him some years taking this into account.

Too Tough To Die

To be honest, i think the players he has been surrounded by at Real have been far better suited to his game than Xavi and Iniesta. It's a bit of a non argument really the tiki taka style is not best suited to him.

ronjo

MD1990 wrote: »

something that is overlooked with Messi
is that with Barca he has Xavi & Iniesta who have competed for the Ballon D'or as well
Ronaldo is not in as good as team in Real Madrid

While its a valid point that he is has the help of those two it pure nonsense to say its overlooked.
Its brought up all the time and has been on this thread on more than one occasion.

Liam O

Did Ozil only have those assist stats due to the level of Ronaldo's play though? It's not like Xavi racks up the assist charts but clearly makes a huge difference to Mess I in gathering space and such. If not for Ronaldo's supreme finishing Ozil could probably literally have half the assists. Not a slight against Ozil but without Ronaldo it's entirely possible he doesn't have the highest assist total in the last 3 years.

Skylinehead

Liam O wrote: »

Did Ozil only have those assist stats due to the level of Ronaldo's play though? It's not like Xavi racks up the assist charts but clearly makes a huge difference to Mess I in gathering space and such. If not for Ronaldo's supreme finishing Ozil could probably literally have half the assists. Not a slight against Ozil but without Ronaldo it's entirely possible he doesn't have the highest assist total in the last 3 years.

Same argument could be applied for Xavi and Iniesta then surely? Barcelona certainly wouldn't have won anything near what they have without Messi.

Rayne Wooney

Skylinehead wrote: »

Same argument could be applied for Xavi and Iniesta then surely? Barcelona certainly wouldn't have won anything near what they have without Messi.

Huh?

Skylinehead

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Huh?

Makes sense to me. Without Messi -> Barca have less trophies. Seeing as he's scored half their goals.

Rayne Wooney

Skylinehead wrote: »

Makes sense to me. Without Messi -> Barca have less trophies. Seeing as he's scored half their goals.

So you're just plucking Messi out and not taking into account that Barca would have another top player in there if Messi wasn't?

In the 7 years Messi has been starting regularly in the first team they've won 4 league titles and 2 CLs, in the 7 years previous to that they had won 4 league titles and 1 CL.

Skylinehead

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

So you're just plucking Messi out and not taking into account that Barca would have another top player in there if Messi wasn't?

In the 7 years Messi has been starting regularly in the first team they've won 4 league titles and 2 CLs, in the 7 years previous to that they had won 4 league titles and 1 CL.

Who's "another top player" compared to Messi? I can't think of any other player that gets 70 goals a season. You're also forgetting that Messi's goals got Barca those two CL titles.

Rayne Wooney

Skylinehead wrote: »

Who's "another top player" compared to Messi? I can't think of any other player that gets 70 goals a season. You're also forgetting that Messi's goals got Barca those two CL titles.

Another top football player, like top football clubs do. If you're arguing the point of "if Messi didn't exist Barca wouldn't have won as much" it's incredibly stupid. They obviously would have been well capable as proven by the 7 years previous to Messi years.

Barca were far superior to United in both finals as a team and would probably have won with Bojan up front

Turtwig

Let's not forget Barca had Zlatan if it wasn't for Messi. Zlatan might still be there. In fact, Xaviesta biscuits may have made Zlatan an even bigger icon.

Too Tough To Die

Jernal wrote: »

Let's not forget Barca had Zlatan if it wasn't for Messi. Zlatan might still be there. In fact, Xaviesta biscuits may have made Zlatan an even bigger icon.

It was a bit mean of them not to turn Zlatan into the greatest player the world has ever seen like they did with Messi. I guess they just didn't like the guy.

Too Tough To Die

And why the hell haven't they fixed Torres!

Frank Garrett

Evidence that it is a lot easier to score in La Liga then it is in the Premiership:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fr%C3%A9d%C3%A9ric_Kanout%C3%A9#Club_career_statistics

Turtwig

It was a bit mean of them not to turn Zlatan into the greatest player the world has ever seen like they did with Messi. I guess they just didn't like the guy.

Didn't like Messi? Yeah that makes sense. The guy is practically a cry baby at times reportedly. Apparently he sent a text to Pep whining about how he was no longer the centre of the team when Zlatan came. They should have stuck with Zlatan. Zlatan deserved it cos Zlatan, like.

Didn't like Zlatan? Yeah that makes sense. The guy is practically a cry baby at times reportedly. Apparently he was pissed about not being able to show his wealth at training and couldn't understand the school boy like attentiveness Xaviesta had towards Pep. They followed his every word without question apparently. Zlatan not like conformity!


As for Torres. I suspect that's because at Atletico Torres inflicted Trauma on them. Lots of trauma! He even inflicted trauma on them in the UCL semi final.

Frank Garrett wrote: »

Evidence that it is a lot easier to score in La Liga then it is in the Premiership:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fr%C3%A9d%C3%A9ric_Kanout%C3%A9#Club_career_statistics

And yet both Fabregas and Cazorla have said you get way more time and space in the Premier League.

Rayne Wooney

I never get that argument, if Messi didn't exist it's not like Barca would only have Cuenca and Tello to choose from to stand in his place.

They obviously would have someone to play there who may not match Messi individually, but the team wouldn't suffer much, if at all.

Skylinehead

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

I never get that argument, if Messi didn't exist it's not like Barca would only have Cuenca and Tello to choose from to stand in his place.

They obviously would have someone to play there who may not match Messi individually, but the team wouldn't suffer much, if at all.

Could say the same thing about Ronaldo so.

Rayne Wooney

Skylinehead wrote: »

Could say the same thing about Ronaldo so.

But you're missing the point that Messi is in a superior team than Ronaldo, always has been, possibly always will be. Both domestically and internationally.

And yet evidently Ronaldo isn't far behind him and has even surpassed him in two seasons, IMO.

Skylinehead

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

But you're missing the point that Messi is in a superior team than Ronaldo, always has been, possibly always will be. Both domestically and internationally.

And yet evidently Ronaldo isn't far behind him and has even surpassed him in two seasons, IMO.

Always has been? I must have imagined the 2011/12 season. Point is they both had plenty of service, both Madrid and Barca almost always dominate whoever they're playing so it's pretty moot.

Rayne Wooney

Skylinehead wrote: »

Always has been? I must have imagined the 2011/12 season. Point is they both had plenty of service, both Madrid and Barca almost always dominate whoever they're playing so it's pretty moot.

No that's not the point. The point is blatantly obvious.

Too Tough To Die

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

No that's not the point. The point is blatantly obvious.

What exactly is your/the point?

darced

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bucketybuck

darced wrote: »

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I find this argument to be quite divorced from reality. Quite apart from the fact that Ronaldo didn't have one big scoring year, but three (In Ronaldo's last three years with United he scored 23, 42, and 26 goals in the season), he also did this as at the age of 22/23. It seems very strange to claim that the world player of the year scoring 42 goals in a season in the premiership would not have continued to improve and match these scoring records as he reached his prime.

You cannot say Ronaldo would not have achieved these feats in the Premiership. Reality is, he did achieve them, it happened, even when he was still a kid.

bucketybuck

darced wrote: »

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By the way, Fabregas scored 15 premier league goals and had 13 assists from 27 appearances in 2009/10. Not bad for a midfielder I am sure you would agree.

darced

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darced

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bucketybuck

darced wrote: »

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I mentioned up page the idea that Messi has benefited greatly from having played ten years with Xavi and Iniesta, as well as Busquets and others, and it is a massive advantage for him no doubt about it.

So if we are talking a hypothetical about whether or not Ronaldo continues to increase his scoring rates had he remained in the Premier league, don't discount that fact that he would also have been able to build partnerships with the likes of Rooney, Scholes and Nani. He scored 33/55/60 goals when moving to a completely new league and team mates, its not hard to accept that he could easily have matched that had he remained in a very successful team that he was very comfortable in, a counter attacking team that played to his strengths remember!

elefant

darced wrote: »

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His best goalscoring season at Barca was 4 less than that season at Arsenal, with 5 more appearances.

bucketybuck

darced wrote: »

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A stat complicated by the fact that he very often played as the furthest forward player for Barcelona, not the midfielder he played for Arsenal.

ETA: Actually, where are you getting these stats, where has he "doubled his scoring"?