Bitcoin

AtomicHorror · 02-01-2014 9:17pm

Peterdalkey wrote: »

This is a business and enterprise forum and the general interest is in how Bitcoin relates to this general topic.

Of course- but just because some of us are reluctant to give business advice doesn't mean we have nothing to offer here. If bitcoin is of interest to business, then discussing its features is useful. Businesspeople can make up their own minds as to whether those features are attractive, but it's nonetheless important to make sure that misconceptions are addressed.

Peterdalkey wrote: »

It is interesting that the thread on the same topic in Investing etc has died the death, so the proponents have moved here to share their "expertise" .

What's the point of this comment? As I recall, this thread has been active in parallel to the Investment thread at various times, along with another bitcoin thread over in AH.

But what if you're right? We swarmed on in once the other thread went quiet... what would that mean exactly? That we are enthusiasts? Zealots? Shills? Would that change whether our claims are relevant to this forum or not? Would it change whether they are correct or not? Motive is not necessarily a predictor of either relevance or veracity.

So I think that is about as much meta discussion as we need to have, don't you? It's not useful. If you can engage with us on relevance or veracity then by all means go for it. Aside from that, there's nothing forcing you to read or comment on this thread. The fact that you're still here suggests you find the topic interesting in some way- so let's discuss the topic and not the discussion. Or else let's let this thread "die the death" so the zealots can move on.

Peterdalkey · 02-01-2014 9:30pm

I wholly agree with you final sentence.

AtomicHorror · 02-01-2014 9:34pm

Peterdalkey wrote: »

I wholly agree with you final sentence.

Fair enough, hopefully we'll debate again on some other topic.

cryptocurrency · 03-01-2014 2:19am

Is there a reason why I can't open Crypsy.com for months...it just won't open on my browser..tried every thing, Chrome, Explo, Firefox, Oprea...on Eircom Broadband which has been nothing but hassle since I left UPC..any ideas?

Peterdalkey · 03-01-2014 10:06am

Opens fine for me. Try one of the tech forums for some setting on your computer/protection software that needs to be changed.

pedroeibar1 · 03-01-2014 1:05pm

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Of course- but just because some of us are reluctant to give business advice doesn't mean we have nothing to offer here. If bitcoin is of interest to business, then discussing its features is useful. Businesspeople can make up their own minds as to whether those features are attractive, but it's nonetheless important to make sure that misconceptions are addressed.

I see very little in the way of good advice coming from the proponents of Bitcoin. I posted just a few comments on this thread and left because it was/is very clear that it was being dominated by those who had too much time and no experience of managing a business, let alone managing foreign currency exposures.

Bitcoin’s promoters & supporters are repeating Dotcom, when everyone was being told ‘Don’t get left behind in getting customers/markets’ and that the market was at the ‘pioneer’ stage, “We are the pioneers; we are grabbing the customers, staking out our claims, just like the wagon-train people did in the 1800’s. If we don’t do it now there will be none left.” Stupidly the promoters & supporters did not realise that land was tangible, but customers could disappear with a mouseclick – and they did. Bitcoin is another intangible; it will go away or remain on the margins, accepted by coffee shops and promoters of matchmaking and galactic flight. For a local example, research Fyffes - look at their share price as a result of (and later because of) their worldoffruit.com activity. Where is that today, along with thousands of other dotcoms?

When people lose on schemes like Bitcoin there are three causes- the greed of wanting something for nothing, sheer ignorance of business reality and infantile trustfulness. There are enough of those people out there, that is the only reason why Bitcoin is still around.

Stamply · 03-01-2014 2:19pm

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

I see very little in the way of good advice coming from the proponents of Bitcoin. I posted just a few comments on this thread and left because it was/is very clear that it was being dominated by those who had too much time and no experience of managing a business, let alone managing foreign currency exposures.

Bitcoin’s promoters & supporters are repeating Dotcom, when everyone was being told ‘Don’t get left behind in getting customers/markets’ and that the market was at the ‘pioneer’ stage, “We are the pioneers; we are grabbing the customers, staking out our claims, just like the wagon-train people did in the 1800’s. If we don’t do it now there will be none left.” Stupidly the promoters & supporters did not realise that land was tangible, but customers could disappear with a mouseclick – and they did. Bitcoin is another intangible; it will go away or remain on the margins, accepted by coffee shops and promoters of matchmaking and galactic flight. For a local example, research Fyffes - look at their share price as a result of (and later because of) their worldoffruit.com activity. Where is that today, along with thousands of other dotcoms?

When people lose on schemes like Bitcoin there are three causes- the greed of wanting something for nothing, sheer ignorance of business reality and infantile trustfulness. There are enough of those people out there, that is the only reason why Bitcoin is still around.

I suppose the internet was just a big bust that added no value to anyone's life at all?

AtomicHorror · 03-01-2014 2:35pm

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

I see very little in the way of good advice coming from the proponents of Bitcoin.

In fact, you'll see pretty much none, because that's not why we're posting here. You're the businesspeople, we're not about to try and school you on a topic you know far better than us. If we do try it, by all means point out the error if it exists. It helps to be specific.

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

I posted just a few comments on this thread and left because it was/is very clear that it was being dominated by those who had too much time and no experience of managing a business, let alone managing foreign currency exposures.

"Eejits" and "a$$holes" were the exact terms you used. Please do not even attempt to imply that your contributions have been productive.

What this discussion needs is for the people with business experience to attack the gaps in our understanding- which I'm certain are many. It doesn't need sweeping generalisations about the opposition, or blunt aphorisms about economics, or the same old rehashed analogies. Above all it does not need dismissive comments posted by people who have no interest in seeing anything they have to say refuted.

The Corinthian · 03-01-2014 3:14pm

I have some understanding of Bitcoin, at least it's not gobbledigook to me, given that I come from a technical background and thus understand what it is. Having said that, I've little experience of it and thus have gaps in my knowledge.

Nonetheless, from a business perspective, I would make the following observations:

It's not used enough to merit taking in payments using it. Integrating something like BitCoin into your business means T&M, which in turn means money. Unless you're selling something that requires anonymity (see below), not enough people are frankly using it as a currency online, and thus there's not much of a business case to integrate it into your business.

Only caveat I'd add is that there may be a business case to integrate it into your business for publicity purposes, given that it's a hot media topic.

It's not anonymous, but it comes close. Can't really add much to that, other than if your business would profit from anonymous buyers, then maybe it's worth looking into.

It's way too volatile to be used as any kind of store of wealth. I deal with multiple currencies all the time, and that means that knowing what something's going to cost me in six months time (more correctly, I can be pretty certain that the USDEUR rate is very unlikely to change drastically) is important to me, as a fluctuation makes a big difference to the margins. In this regard, Bitcoin is pretty useless from a business perspective as I won't know what it's going to be worth in six hours, let alone six months.

It's a bubble. BitCoin may become the standard online currency in the future. Or another, non-national, decentralized, currency may - of the latter, at least, I would be fairly confident and would not rule out BitCoin from being that currency. However, it's currently a bubble and reading most of the proponents of BitCoin in this thread, they're mainly excited about it on ideological grounds and/or because they're speculating in this bubble.

As such, unless someone wants to suggest a 'soft landing' for BitCoin (where have I heard that before?), I suspect we're going to see the bubble burst, interest in BitCoin vanish, lots of people losing their shirts and a few years later BitCoin 2.0 appearing and becoming a real currency in practical terms.

Conclusion; not ready for the market as intended yet, but may be worth a speculative gamble if you're not averse to high risk and reckon you can second guess the bubble. However BitCoin or BitCoin-like currency will become a serious medium of exchange within the next decade, so still worth keeping a close eye on how it develops.

Stamply · 03-01-2014 3:29pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

It's a bubble. BitCoin may become the standard online currency in the future.

...

However BitCoin or BitCoin-like currency will become a serious medium of exchange within the next decade, so still worth keeping a close eye on how it develops.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but is there not an inconsistency here?

In this case is accepting a very small amount of Bitcoin cashflow that won't damage your business prohibitively in the event of a crash, but prepares a business for a potential future Bitcoin economy not a perfectly valid position to take, if not "wise" per se...

That said, the development cost of accepting Bitcoin is probably prohibitive for now, since dev shops and web agencies are still not proficient in BTC payment infrastructure and APIs.

pedroeibar1 · 03-01-2014 3:38pm

AtomicHorror wrote: »

In fact, you'll see pretty much none, because that's not why we're posting here. You're the businesspeople, we're not about to try and school you on a topic you know far better than us. If we do try it, by all means point out the error if it exists. It helps to be specific.

"Eejits" and "a$$holes" were the exact terms you used. Please do not even attempt to imply that your contributions have been productive.

What this discussion needs is for the people with business experience to attack the gaps in our understanding- which I'm certain are many. It doesn't need sweeping generalisations about the opposition, or blunt aphorisms about economics, or the same old rehashed analogies. Above all it does not need dismissive comments posted by people who have no interest in seeing anything they have to say refuted.

There is a role here for people to inform and assist entrepreneurs. That presupposes a level of basic experience and knowledge. It is not a forum for business education ab initio. You have been praising and promoting Bitcoin as a means of payment and have failed (miserably) to show how it could be used in a worthwhile business application. In refuting any criticism you blather on about the need for crypto currencies and non- sequitors.

Bitcoin is controlled from a small number of shady exchanges in places like Bulgaria, Slovenia and China, none of which is high on the list for regulatory excellence or indeed known for financial probity. For example during November in Hong Kong GBL a Bitcoin exchange folded, costing investors over $4 million.

Suppose you are a manufacturer and receive an order for Z number widgets. You order raw material today of X value on 30 day terms. It arrives in 14 days and sits for 7 days while you amass other raw material. All is then intergrated/manufactured and put into stock until you are ready to ship. Allow 21 days before shipment and you supply on 60 days credit terms. So, that amounts to more than 100 days before you get paid for your product. The USD or whatever might move but I can cover forward., but Bitcoin provides nothing. In 2013 Bitcoin rose from $13 to $1,200 and then in just one week in December plummeted to a low of $535.

How can anyone manage a business with that type of fluctuation? There is a tiny market for sellers of Bitcoin forward contracts, that tends to be limited to individual Bitcoin miners. Even big miners with huge computing power have difficulty in mining for hedging.

When you can illustrate how and why Bitcoin has an economic worth for business merit I will take you seriously. Any business that uses bitcoin is, as I said earlier, for eejits and I certainly would not do business with them.

pedroeibar1 · 03-01-2014 3:42pm

Stamply wrote: »

I suppose the internet was just a big bust that added no value to anyone's life at all?

No, I neither said nor implied that. I made a lot of money out of the Internet, saw the Dotcom bust coming before most, got out ahead and it is why I also see the blood and tears that will come from bitcoin.:)

Stamply · 03-01-2014 3:58pm

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

No, I neither said nor implied that. I made a lot of money out of the Internet, saw the Dotcom bust coming before most, got out ahead and it is why I also see the blood and tears that will come from bitcoin.:)

Bitcoin is a protocol that exists apart from Bitcoin the currency, like the internet is a protocol that exists apart from Dotcom flop companies...

The Corinthian · 03-01-2014 4:05pm

Stamply wrote: »

I'm not saying you're wrong, but is there not an inconsistency here?

It's not the first time that something has started as a bubble, burst and then later went on to become something both real and significant.

The whole concept of eCommerce and the Internet was a complete bubble 15 years ago, and one which burst. Yet, a few years later, so-called Web 2.0 resurfaced, with a more modest approach and became a serious commercial platform - one which has overtaken the high-street, in terms of sales, in recent years.

Mobile Internet was another one - remember WAP?

The point of the two above, is that ultimately they were both fundamentally good concepts. When you think about either of them, they're almost inevitable and this is probably why they so easily become bubbles at the start.

Something like BitCoin is not dissimilar. More correctly, the concept of an electronic commodity currency (you'll note that I didn't say it would necessarily be BitCoin), based upon inbuilt scarcity, is a bit of a slam dunk in the long term. A bubble bursting around it may put it on the unpopular list for a few years, like my two examples above, but sooner or later it'll take hold, simply because there's way to much money to be made from it in the long run.

In this case is accepting a very small amount of Bitcoin cashflow that won't damage your business prohibitively in the event of a crash, but prepares a business for a potential future Bitcoin economy not a perfectly valid position to take, if not "wise" per se...

A potential future BitCoin economy that may well have moved on technologically from that of today - would setting up a WAP site in 2001 have prepared anyone for the iPhone or Android?

I'm afraid that the business case for spending any resources on it simply isn't there, outside of the PR caveat I suggested, IMHO.

That said, the development cost of accepting Bitcoin is probably prohibitive for now, since dev shops and web agencies are still not proficient in BTC payment infrastructure and APIs.

LOL. Since when has lack of proficiency or experience in a technology stopped dev shops and agencies from bluffing that they're experts?

Stamply · 03-01-2014 4:19pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

It's not the first time that something has started as a bubble, burst and then later went on to become something both real and significant.

The whole concept of eCommerce and the Internet was a complete bubble 15 years ago, and one which burst. Yet, a few years later, so-called Web 2.0 resurfaced, with a more modest approach and became a serious commercial platform - one which has overtaken the high-street, in terms of sales, in recent years.

Mobile Internet was another one - remember WAP?

The point of the two above, is that ultimately they were both fundamentally good concepts. When you think about either of them, they're almost inevitable and this is probably why they so easily become bubbles at the start.

Something like BitCoin is not dissimilar. More correctly, the concept of an electronic commodity currency (you'll note that I didn't say it would necessarily be BitCoin), based upon inbuilt scarcity, is a bit of a slam dunk in the long term. A bubble bursting around it may put it on the unpopular list for a few years, like my two examples above, but sooner or later it'll take hold, simply because there's way to much money to be made from it in the long run.

A potential future BitCoin economy that may well have moved on technologically from that of today - would setting up a WAP site in 2001 have prepared anyone for the iPhone or Android?

I'm afraid that the business case for spending any resources on it simply isn't there, outside of the PR caveat I suggested, IMHO.

LOL. Since when has lack of proficiency or experience in a technology stopped dev shops and agencies from bluffing that they're experts?

I wholeheartedly agree with all of the points here.

My point about dev shops, etc... is pretty irrelevant. But a developer who is completely familiar with a technology will make more money and spend less time implementing it than one who is investigating. Therefore, if the market is there they will push it. Currently the market isn't there to push or even to learn about it because not enough real businesses are aware of the utility.

That said, businesses who track the development of crypto-currency will have somewhat of an advantage over those who don't. I recognise that there is a big leap from tracking & investigating to investing real money in it...

There is still little understanding here that there is nothing intrinsically wrong with an investment led market, which Bitcoin is. China is also an investment led market, not a consumer led market like most countries in the west. China is betting on a future consumer led market and the potential of their currency to become a reserve over time. Nothing about that is certain and many believe that China will have a massive crash! Bitcoin would certainly become valuable in that case, as would gold and all other stores of value apart from fiat currency.

That said, if Bitcoin is John the Baptist to a future Massiah then it will be a painful experience for many people

The Corinthian · 03-01-2014 5:01pm

Stamply wrote: »

But a developer who is completely familiar with a technology will make more money and spend less time implementing it than one who is investigating.

Implementing for whom? As I said, from a business perspective, it makes no sense to implement anything and so if businesses aren't in the market to support it, whom will a developer be implementing for?

I saw the same thing around 2003 with WAP sites, no one was interested because there no real business case for them and as a result, if you were developing WAP sites you got a lot of free time on your hands. Why do you think that almost all the mobile technology dev consultancies around that time turned to PSMS instead?

Therefore, if the market is there they will push it. Currently the market isn't there to push or even to learn about it because not enough real businesses are aware of the utility.

No, it's because even when enough real businesses are aware of the utility, they'll not bother because there isn't enough utility there to make it worthwhile.

You keep on returning to this early adopter argument, over and over again, but this isn't how things work, I'm afraid. If I have a Web site that sells widgets and am considering offering BitCoin as a means to buy my widgets, then I'm going to want that the demand for this will either be high enough, or soon will be, to warrant the investment in integrating BitCoin payments.

And it's not and being an early adopter of something that doesn't pay for itself benefits my business in no way. Ergo waste of money. Bottom line.

That said, businesses who track the development of crypto-currency will have somewhat of an advantage over those who don't.

Tracking technologies or other potential future developments is something that every business should do. Doesn't take up all that much time, TBH.

There is still little understanding here that there is nothing intrinsically wrong with an investment led market, which Bitcoin is. China is also an investment led market, not a consumer led market like most countries in the west. China is betting on a future consumer led market and the potential of their currency to become a reserve over time. Nothing about that is certain and many believe that China will have a massive crash! Bitcoin would certainly become valuable in that case, as would gold and all other stores of value apart from fiat currency.

The present BitCoin market is a bubble. It adheres to the greater fool theory (what you seem to call an investment led market), unrealistically extrapolated expectations and an increasingly herd-like mentality (as evidenced by some of the posts even here). So for me, it looks like a bubble, quacks like a bubble, so I'm guessing it is a bubble. I've seen a lot of them in my life and this is pretty blatantly another one.

That means that sooner or later it'll burst - just a question of whether you're on its back or not when it does. You are welcome to disagree with me if you wish.

That said, if Bitcoin is John the Baptist to a future Massiah then it will be a painful experience for many people

Wouldn't be a proper bubble if it wasn't. Worse still, they won't have any bankers or politicians to blame this time round.

Stamply · 03-01-2014 5:04pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

Implementing for whom? As I said, from a business perspective, it makes no sense to implement anything and so if businesses aren't in the market to support it, whom will a developer be implementing for?

I saw the same thing around 2003 with WAP sites, no one was interested because there no real business case for them and as a result, if you were developing WAP sites you got a lot of free time on your hands. Why do you think that almost all the mobile technology dev consultancies around that time turned to PSMS instead?

No, it's because even when enough real businesses are aware of the utility, they'll not bother because there isn't enough utility there to make it worthwhile.

You keep on returning to this early adopter argument, over and over again, but this isn't how things work, I'm afraid. If I have a Web site that sells widgets and am considering offering BitCoin as a means to buy my widgets, then I'm going to want that the demand for this will either be high enough, or soon will be, to warrant the investment in integrating BitCoin payments.

And it's not and being an early adopter of something that doesn't pay for itself benefits my business in no way. Ergo waste of money. Bottom line.

Tracking technologies or other potential future developments is something that every business should do. Doesn't take up all that much time, TBH.

The present BitCoin market is a bubble. It adheres to the greater fool theory (what you seem to call an investment led market), unrealistically extrapolated expectations and an increasingly herd-like mentality (as evidenced by some of the posts even here). So for me, it looks like a bubble, quacks like a bubble, so I'm guessing it is a bubble. I've seen a lot of them in my life and this is pretty blatantly another one.

That means that sooner or later it'll burst - just a question of whether you're on its back or not when it does. You are welcome to disagree with me if you wish.

Wouldn't be a proper bubble if it wasn't. Worse still, they won't have any bankers or politicians to blame this time round.

Oh man, are you genuinely just arguing for the sake of arguing?

Stamply · 03-01-2014 5:06pm

The present BitCoin market is a bubble. It adheres to the greater fool theory (what you seem to call an investment led market), unrealistically extrapolated expectations and an increasingly herd-like mentality (as evidenced by some of the posts even here). So for me, it looks like a bubble, quacks like a bubble, so I'm guessing it is a bubble. I've seen a lot of them in my life and this is pretty blatantly another one.

So is the present Chinese state investment-led economy a bubble?

An investment led market can be a bubble or not... Its not "what I call it", its an actual thing and pretty fundamental in economics...

Don't lower yourself to arguing for the sake of it... I frickin' agreed with you!

The Corinthian · 03-01-2014 5:08pm

Stamply wrote: »

Oh man, are you genuinely just arguing for the sake of arguing?

You came out with a few points that I don't believe were correct, and so rebutted them - that it the purpose of these discussions, is it not?

The Corinthian · 03-01-2014 5:11pm

Stamply wrote: »

So is the present Chinese state investment-led economy a bubble?

The frightening thing is it could well be, but I wouldn't want to say it is as it is less clear than something like the property bubble or dotcom bubble were, or the present BitCoin bubble currently is.

Stamply · 03-01-2014 5:11pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

You came out with a few points that I don't believe were correct, and so rebutted them - that it the purpose of these discussions, is it not?

Well most of your interpretations of what I said weakly correlated to what I said and your "corrections" were pretty irrelevant...

The Corinthian · 03-01-2014 5:12pm

Stamply wrote: »

Well most of your interpretations of what I said weakly correlated to what I said and your "corrections" were pretty irrelevant...

Feel free to show were this is the case rather than simply claiming that this is the case.

pedronomix · 03-01-2014 5:15pm

Stamply wrote: »

Well most of your interpretations of what I said weakly correlated to what I said and your "corrections" were pretty irrelevant...

and bitcoin is also clearly irelevant to business at this point. Full circle!

Peterdalkey · 03-01-2014 5:25pm

pedronomix wrote: »

and bitcoin is also clearly irelevant to business at this point. Full circle!

The practical commercial aspects of bitcoin have been pretty much nailed on here , the philsophical seems all that is left to gnaw upon!

The Corinthian · 03-01-2014 6:48pm

Peterdalkey wrote: »

The practical commercial aspects of bitcoin have been pretty much nailed on here , the philsophical seems all that is left to gnaw upon!

I'd tend to agree. I do think that BitCoin or a BitCoin-like currency is going to be a major player at some stage, but for the foreseeable future I believe what we're looking at is an investment bubble with very few commercial benefits (unless you're in the market for Yellowcake Uranium).

AtomicHorror · 03-01-2014 11:51pm

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

There is a role here for people to inform and assist entrepreneurs. That presupposes a level of basic experience and knowledge. It is not a forum for business education ab initio.

Then we get nowhere. There's a severe lack of technical understanding of bitcoin amongst businesspeople and economic experts. There's a severe lack of economic understanding and business experience amongst the people who understand bitcoin. If we do things your way, we all stay put and nothing ever changes.

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

You have been praising and promoting Bitcoin as a means of payment and have failed (miserably) to show how it could be used in a worthwhile business application. In refuting any criticism you blather on about the need for crypto currencies and non- sequitors.

Examples? I haven't done much praising, just contradicted point where I saw the need. I reckon bitcoin's got less than a 20% chance of surviving the next 2 years, if I were running a business I'd be very cautious about using the currency. I've said all these things before but you'd rather assume I fit your neat little narrative than read the fecking thread. Paraphrasing your own words you couldn't be bothered, remember?

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Bitcoin is controlled from a small number of shady exchanges in places like Bulgaria, Slovenia and China, none of which is high on the list for regulatory excellence or indeed known for financial probity. For example during November in Hong Kong GBL a Bitcoin exchange folded, costing investors over $4 million.

Keep up, China regulated it to death. Exchanges don't control bitcoin, they exchange it and doubtless make a nice profit doing so. Unless they collude with one another (and perhaps they do but let's see some evidence) they don't control squat because the competition can always offer something better.

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Suppose you are a manufacturer and receive an order for Z number widgets. You order raw material today of X value on 30 day terms. It arrives in 14 days and sits for 7 days while you amass other raw material. All is then intergrated/manufactured and put into stock until you are ready to ship. Allow 21 days before shipment and you supply on 60 days credit terms. So, that amounts to more than 100 days before you get paid for your product. The USD or whatever might move but I can cover forward., but Bitcoin provides nothing. In 2013 Bitcoin rose from $13 to $1,200 and then in just one week in December plummeted to a low of $535.

How can anyone manage a business with that type of fluctuation? There is a tiny market for sellers of Bitcoin forward contracts, that tends to be limited to individual Bitcoin miners. Even big miners with huge computing power have difficulty in mining for hedging.

That's more like it, all very good points. Was that so bloody hard?

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

When you can illustrate how and why Bitcoin has an economic worth for business merit I will take you seriously.

I haven't even tried to, nor will I. What I've said, more than once, is that bitcoin needs businesses, and particularly small businesses. I haven't said a word about whether businesses need bitcoin.

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Any business that uses bitcoin is, as I said earlier, for eejits and I certainly would not do business with them.

What would be your main concern, aside from not wanting to do business with eejits? Likely survival of their business?

pedroeibar1 · 04-01-2014 1:34am

Why bother keeping this thread alive? Business, big or small, does not need bitcoin. It is a dog, with no real-life application when viewed from a business perspective. You have failed to address the questions I put to you in #312, the answers being a basic prerequisite to understanding trade.

Most companies fail because they suffer an unsustainable bad debt. Others go to the wall because they cannot properly manage their cashflow. Bitcoin opens up a company to both of those risks in a much larger way than any other trade credit risk. Any company that adopts bitcoin assumes huge risk, both financially and reputationally. Toxic trade.

JP Morgan looked at a similar type of ecurrency back in the mid 1990’s, when Dotcom was in its infancy. They dropped it. One of the best dotcom platforms - Tradecard - that survived from the mid 1990s included a payment system; it struggled for years with a great product and eventually ‘merged’ with GT Nexus. That is a business model worth advocating instead of some s#1tty underthecounter cryptocurrency.

My last post: it’s clear that you and a few other posters with bitcoin expertise have no concept of the real business world and just want an argument.

AtomicHorror · 04-01-2014 2:44am

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Why bother keeping this thread alive? Business, big or small, does not need bitcoin. It is a dog, with no real-life application when viewed from a business perspective.

The thread is alive because people still want to talk about it. I'm sorry if that frustrates you but that's all there is to it. If I start bumping this thread all on my own, or if it's just me and Stamply batting it back and forth, then by all means you have a right to complain.

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

You have failed to address the questions I put to you in #312, the answers being a basic prerequisite to understanding trade.

I've already told you, I don't have the knowledge to answer these questions. I think you actually made a some really good points there- and they'd make me worry that the barriers to adoption by businesses may be fatal to bitcoin.

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Most companies fail because they suffer an unsustainable bad debt. Others go to the wall because they cannot properly manage their cashflow. Bitcoin opens up a company to both of those risks in a much larger way than any other trade credit risk. Any company that adopts bitcoin assumes huge risk, both financially and reputationally. Toxic trade.

I agree, huge risk. For a speculator, it's a question of weighing that risk against the potential gains, making a positive expectation bet.

For a business owner, I have to imagine it's not at all that simple (if we can ever call it simple), since they're buying in with the intention of using the currency, timeframes are variable, the infrastructure is unregulated and risky... I certainly wouldn't want to be the person who has to weigh all of that that up, though that doesn't mean someone else can't do it.

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

JP Morgan looked at a similar type of ecurrency back in the mid 1990’s, when Dotcom was in its infancy. They dropped it.

What caused them to drop it? Was it volatile?

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

My last post: it’s clear that you and a few other posters with bitcoin expertise have no concept of the real business world and just want an argument.

A shame. Since you stopped the hit and run rubbish, stopped name calling and actually started making proper arguments, you've already managed to put some doubts in my mind and the thread instantly got more interesting.

Peterdalkey · 04-01-2014 3:05pm

Bitcoin may well be a wonder of technological design or evolution, but it seems to have failed to find a market for itself, other than amongst speculators. It is a failure as a business idea as it's primary market neither wants nor needs it. There is a business and consumer demand for a low cost secure stable electronic payments/ money transmission service/structure, there is no demand for another currency type instrument.
If you give the market what they want or offer them an innovative solution that enhances their lives/businesses etc, the market will adopt the solution. Facebook killed first to market Bebo, email has nailed fax and now is killing SMS, even the beleaguered Euro has replaced many currencies. Bitcoin is now well tainted even before it gets to first base.

As was said before, the low cost operational methodologies that have evolved around Bitcoin may well be the model for a new low cost instant secure digital payment/transfer system, then all that brainpower will not have been wasted. Business is about giving the market what it wants or showing them innovation to create that demand, Bitcoin has failed these acid tests.

pedronomix · 04-01-2014 4:22pm

We have seen posters on here that have intelligence, education and debating skills that may well be superior to mine. However, well crafted logic imbued with innate intelligence counts for not a jot when it comes business, acceptance by the ultimate arbiter, the market, is the measure.
Customers are not won by the best argument but rather by the desire of the buyer for your offering and value proposition. There are commercial/business characteristics /dynamics that ignored, render conclusions reached without them simply invalid. Your alleged beef stew has no meat, tasty as it may be, it ain't no beef stew!

Bitcoin

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