Bitcoin

old_aussie

Mt. Gox Bitcoin Exchange Collapse

Any news on this?

http://guardianlv.com/2014/02/mt-gox-bitcoin-exchange-collapse/

old_aussie

Deleted User wrote: »

I wonder how easy bitcoins would be to manipulate by a very big investor? Since there is a limited amount of them, what if someone like Soros decides to drop a few billion on bitcoins, and then dump them a few weeks later?

Seems they(bitcoins) have been manipulated by someone who's NOT a big investor.

Mt. Gox, once the world's biggest bitcoin exchange, filed for bankruptcy protection in Japan on Friday

http://in.reuters.com/article/2014/02/28/us-bitcoin-mtgox-bankruptcy-idINBREA1R0FX20140228

Stamply

old_aussie wrote: »

Seems they(bitcoins) have been manipulated by someone who's NOT a big investor.

Mt. Gox, once the world's biggest bitcoin exchange, filed for bankruptcy protection in Japan on Friday

http://in.reuters.com/article/2014/02/28/us-bitcoin-mtgox-bankruptcy-idINBREA1R0FX20140228

Is the Mt. Gox issue a problem with Bitcoin fundamentally? I have had no time to do any reading as of yet, but I will and if anyone here wants to point me in the right direction that would be great...

PROBLEM WITH EXCHANGE, NOT BITCOIN

Many bitcoin market participants have said Mt. Gox's problems were specific to the company and were caused by what they said was a lax attitude by Karpeles, while bitcoin itself - free of any central bank control - was still a noble venture.

"If we could agree on legal regulation, we should let (bitcoin and regulators) co-exist," said Keiichi Hida, a bitcoin investor and member of the Japan Digital Money Association. He lost about 100,000 yen worth of bitcoins, but seemed unconcerned as he became interested in the virtual currency as a form of "study".

There should not be recourse in the case of theft of bitcoin because that will break the currency...

alb

Stamply wrote: »

Is the Mt. Gox issue a problem with Bitcoin fundamentally? I have had no time to do any reading as of yet, but I will and if anyone here wants to point me in the right direction that would be great...

It's not a fundamental Bitcoin problem. Gox have not been communicating what exactly is going on with them. There have been problems with fiat withdrawals from them for about a year, in the last couple of weeks they halted both fiat and Bitcoin withdrawals entirely and a lot of Gox users got concerned, and panicky.

About a week ago they shut down trading entirely and the site went offline. Karpeles yesterday did press conference where he again didn't say much, but apologised and it seems they have filed for bankruptcy protection. Still no real information from them about what is going on but here are four basic theories:

1) Gox owner Mark Karpeles is a scam artist/thief, and is trying to steal all the funds in plain sight, blaming a phantom theft.
2) Gox has suffered large scale theft, most likely over time or at least in the past, they tried to hide it in the hopes of eventually making enough legit profits to cover it, but due to Bitcoin growing in price so fast insolvency finally caught up with them
3) Gox funds have been frozen by the US gov based on trying to follow the money from Silk Road. Gox is under a gag order so cannot explain what is going on, and are trying to stall long enough to get funds back. Gox is insolvent until they can get these funds back.
4) Gox screwed up their own Bitcoin security and have managed to forget or lose the access keys to a large number of coins. They are stalling while they try to recover them.

I highly doubt it's theory 1) as Karpeles has been stalling, has not gone on the run and seems hopeful of keeping gox afloat, but is also being vague about any details of what is going on. 3) kind of makes the most sense to me, but it could easily be 2) or 4). Time will tell

pedronomix

most likely scenario, dogs and fleas!!!

pedroeibar1

alb wrote: »

It's not a fundamental Bitcoin problem. Gox have not been communicating what exactly is going on with them. There have been problems with fiat withdrawals from them for about a year, in the last couple of weeks they halted both fiat and Bitcoin withdrawals entirely and a lot of Gox users got concerned, and panicky.

About a week ago they shut down trading entirely and the site went offline. Karpeles yesterday did press conference where he again didn't say much, but apologised and it seems they have filed for bankruptcy protection. Still no real information from them about what is going on but here are four basic theories:

1) Gox owner Mark Karpeles is a scam artist/thief, and is trying to steal all the funds in plain sight, blaming a phantom theft.
2) Gox has suffered large scale theft, most likely over time or at least in the past, they tried to hide it in the hopes of eventually making enough legit profits to cover it, but due to Bitcoin growing in price so fast insolvency finally caught up with them
3) Gox funds have been frozen by the US gov based on trying to follow the money from Silk Road. Gox is under a gag order so cannot explain what is going on, and are trying to stall long enough to get funds back. Gox is insolvent until they can get these funds back.
4) Gox screwed up their own Bitcoin security and have managed to forget or lose the access keys to a large number of coins. They are stalling while they try to recover them.

I highly doubt it's theory 1) as Karpeles has been stalling, has not gone on the run and seems hopeful of keeping gox afloat, but is also being vague about any details of what is going on. 3) kind of makes the most sense to me, but it could easily be 2) or 4). Time will tell

That post is almost as hilarious le con Karpeles now announcing that he is seeking court approval for a restructuring of his business.:D:D

Mt Gox has a hole of about $30 million, with debts of about Yen7 billion (+/-$70 million) and assets of less than Y4 billion. Curiously, about 750k bitcons belonging to customers has disappeared:eek:, yet only 100k belonging to his company have – ahem - vanished:cool:. Even more curious, he is saying that the alleged, ahem ‘theft’ amounted to about $480 million. :P

Separately, Fortress investment Group, a seriously big (worth $2.6 billion), reputable and successful hedge fund managing north of $60 billion in assets last year took a very, very small punt on bitcon to monitor what was happening/see how it operated. They are top-end players, with very bright people, buckets of experience and the latest in hi-tech tools yet they managed to lose almost half of their investment. :rolleyes:
Yet idiots :pac::pac::pac::pac: here think they know better and have the temerity to lecture others on why bitcon is a good investment.

alb

pedroeibar1, I propose a friendly wager, if Bitcoin reaches a daily average all time high price this year thus putting Fortress back in profit will you stop posting anything on any Bitcoin threads on this board? My side of the bet is if Bitcoin falls below the price it was 6 months ago ($140) daily average I'll stop posting.

Do you accept?

pedroeibar1

alb wrote: »

pedroeibar1, I propose a friendly wager, if Bitcoin reaches a daily average all time high price this year thus putting Fortress back in profit will you stop posting anything on any Bitcoin threads on this board? My side of the bet is if Bitcoin falls below the price it was 6 months ago ($140) daily average I'll stop posting.

Do you accept?

Very weird post alb, you really miss the point.
Firstly, the big difference between our positions is not in a debate on price movement, but on ethics. In opposition to your posts to date, my stance always has been that in its present make-up bitcon’s survival is heavily dependent on an unregulated environment, one that attracts and is attended by illegality and one where people like Karpeles and other less than scrupulous individuals have had free rein to rip-off the unsuspecting. The hole in Mt.Gox’s finances is a typical example, one underscored by their 'management' of what happened. At first investors were told it was an ‘IT problem’, then it was ‘server issues’ and now it transpires it was ‘theft’ with allusions to hacking all of which took place over a long period at least a year ago and that are only now coming to light. Convenient! Bitcon is ‘talked up’ by those with huge conflicts of interest– e.g. the Vinklevoss brothers, who hold a few hundred million USD worth at today’s prices. That largely is where the price volatility comes from, a bit like what the economist whores in the Irish estate agency business did a few years ago.

Secondly, all that I stand for in financial regulation (particularly the recent steps taken in Ireland) would have to be ignored. Can you really expect any financial professional to be supportive of entities like Bitstamp in Slovenia and BTC-e in Bulgaria? Or Mt Gox, or its predecessor, (arguably) Silk Road, whose Mr. Shrem was recently arrested on charges of helping to facilitate drug transactions?

Thirdly, your proposal is not a bet, alb, it is a request for a futile prediction valid on 31 Dec 2014 (by which time bitcon will be considerably different if it is to remain around) so the bet ‘subject’ (i.e. price) would have had its fundamentals changed and therefore your proposal is worthless as it would prove nothing.

Finally, I will continue to assert my right to throw cold water on the hype and the s#ite that is too often written on the supposed ‘merits’ of bitcon, a commodity that is fundamentally flawed in its current guise.

alb

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Very weird post alb, you really miss the point.
Firstly, the big difference between our positions is not in a debate on price movement, but on ethics.

Agreed, I don't care about talking price, I don't think I've ever spoken about the price on this thread, you brought it up in terms of the Fortress investment. It doesn't matter, it will rise if Bitcoin continues adoption it will fall to zero if Bitcoin fails completely, everything else is short term fluctuations from speculation... lets move on.

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

In opposition to your posts to date, my stance always has been that in its present make-up bitcon’s survival is heavily dependent on an unregulated environment, one that attracts and is attended by illegality and one where people like Karpeles and other less than scrupulous individuals have had free rein to rip-off the unsuspecting. The hole in Mt.Gox’s finances is a typical example, one underscored by their 'management' of what happened. At first investors were told it was an ‘IT problem’, then it was ‘server issues’ and now it transpires it was ‘theft’ with allusions to hacking all of which took place over a long period at least a year ago and that are only now coming to light. Convenient! Bitcon is ‘talked up’ by those with huge conflicts of interest– e.g. the Vinklevoss brothers, who hold a few hundred million USD worth at today’s prices. That largely is where the price volatility comes from, a bit like what the economist whores in the Irish estate agency business did a few years ago.

There's two aspects to regulation here:
1) Interfering with the Bitcoin protocol itself by trying to regulate the technology: removing fungability of coins, using centrally controlled whitelists of 'good' addresses.

I am not in favour of this. Bitcoin the technology works fine just the way it is.

2) Regulating Bitcoin companies (gox, bitstamp, bitpay etc) and services to protect consumers, in a similar manner as traditional financial companies are.

I'm not against this as long as it's not so difficult and expensive to comply with that it acts as a barrier to entry for new companies and stifles innovation. I actually think that clarity about this is what is holding Bitcoin back more than anything else. The upcoming regulation from the New York regulator can't come soon enough as far as I'm concerned.

As for Gox, the Winklevii, Shrem we probably agree on all of this, up until recently, the ecosystem of Bitcoin companies has been wild-west amateur hour and I'm glad the bad actors are gradually being removed. I hope people get at least some of their gox coins and fiat back, but ultimately they took a risk leaving funds there. The good side of this is that Bitcoin is proving it's bigger than any of these actors or companies. Bitcoin surviving the Goxxing will show that Bitcoin is not dependent on any company.

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Secondly, all that I stand for in financial regulation (particularly the recent steps taken in Ireland) would have to be ignored. Can you really expect any financial professional to be supportive of entities like Bitstamp in Slovenia and BTC-e in Bulgaria? Or Mt Gox, or its predecessor, (arguably) Silk Road, whose Mr. Shrem was recently arrested on charges of helping to facilitate drug transactions?

I don't expect anyone to trust any of these companies with serious amounts of money. I don't trust anyone at all whether it be in the Bitcoin ecosystem or the traditional banking system. I have purchased Bitcoin using bitcoin.de, Bitstamp and Kraken in the past. I'm quite risk averse, each time I never deposited large amounts at once and I withdrew my Bitcoins immediately after the purchase. I think these companies are fine, I have no reason to believe otherwise, but I still realise there's a risk. I keep my Bitcoins myself, no one else can control them, steal them, confiscate them or stop me spending them, which is the whole point for me.

An interesting point about this is that these companies are going to bear the brunt of the Gox debacle in terms of negative PR, they're going to have to find ways to convince customers that they won't steal from them. This may lead to them proving their coin reserves, allowing independent audits, insuring deposits, or even encouraging regulation themselves.

In an ideal world I would love to see completely decentralised exchanges that require no counterparty trust, but this is a difficult problem when fiat is involved. People are working on it, but it's still early days.

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Thirdly, your proposal is not a bet, alb, it is a request for a futile prediction valid on 31 Dec 2014 (by which time bitcon will be considerably different if it is to remain around) so the bet ‘subject’ (i.e. price) would have had its fundamentals changed and therefore your proposal is worthless as it would prove nothing.

Finally, I will continue to assert my right to throw cold water on the hype and the s#ite that is too often written on the supposed ‘merits’ of bitcon, a commodity that is fundamentally flawed in its current guise.

I just wanted you to make a serious post like this, instead of FUD with smileys. I would much prefer to debate posts like this one.

old_aussie

IT SEEMS controversial virtual currency bitcoin has claimed its first life.

THE American chief executive of a bitcoin exchange has been found dead at her home in Singapore.
Autumn Radtke, 28, was found dead in her apartment on February 28 and investigators are awaiting toxicology tests to confirm that her death was a suicide.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/business/markets/bitcoin-exchange-boss-autumn-radtke-found-dead-of-suspected-suicide-in-singapore/story-fni0d7jd-1226846560794?from=google_rss&google_editors_picks=true

ExMachina1000

Mickk wrote: »

Has anyone got involved with Bitcoin? I was lucky enough to buy some at about 150 each, they are about 800 each now. I didn't buy them just to speculate, I think they have a real future and I think it's a better way to store money than in currency which will be inflated by money printing... When you look into the infrastructure that has been built up around it it's very interesting.

I hope you held on to them

jimmii

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

I hope you held on to them

One of the few 7 year old threads worth digging up! Unfortunately looks like Mick hasn't posted for a while but hopefully he did hold on be pretty sweet to have picked up a couple of bitcoin for €300 at that point! Guess it would have been hard to keep hold once it became worth 5 figs.

ExMachina1000

jimmii wrote: »

One of the few 7 year old threads worth digging up! Unfortunately looks like Mick hasn't posted for a while but hopefully he did hold on be pretty sweet to have picked up a couple of bitcoin for €300 at that point! Guess it would have been hard to keep hold once it became worth 5 figs.

For sure. I would have sold long ago myself. Must be people out there who bought for pennies and are still holding on.

Wonder how many out there bought 8 years ago or so and lost or lost interest in the coins and lost access

tacofries

I'm hoping Mick is lying on a hammock in the Bahamas sipping on a tequila sunrise as we speak!

Bandara

Got in about 2013, lost everything in the Mnt Gox hack. Got back in again a year or two after. Holding three different currencies as wanted to cover all angles. Always had a figure in my head that I would sell for and once it hits that eventually I’ll sell. Huge believer in the technology and the concept of Crypto. Which coin is king has always been BTC but that can change hence the different holdings. Used to day trade etc but stopped that a few years ago. Your only driving yourself demented doing that. Set a notification on a Bitcoin ticker to let me know when it hits pre-set amounts. Always love it when the sound goes off !

ExMachina1000

Bandara wrote: »

Got in about 2013, lost everything in the Mnt Gox hack. Got back in again a year or two after. Holding three different currencies as wanted to cover all angles. Always had a figure in my head that I would sell for and once it hits that eventually I’ll sell. Huge believer in the technology and the concept of Crypto. Which coin is king has always been BTC but that can change hence the different holdings. Used to day trade etc but stopped that a few years ago. Your only driving yourself demented doing that. Set a notification on a Bitcoin ticker to let me know when it hits pre-set amounts. Always love it when the sound goes off !

That's how it's done! Fair play to ya. I hope it breezes past your target

Gloomtastic!

Read in the SBP today that Bitcoin has increased 400% this year. That's extraordinary. If it wasn't a bubble, it has to be seen as one now. Am I wrong?

jimmii

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

Read in the SBP today that Bitcoin has increased 400% this year. That's extraordinary. If it wasn't a bubble, it has to be seen as one now. Am I wrong?

Last year be nice if it was 400% this year! Anyone who pretends they know is just kidding themselves! Its up 50% since Christmas eve been all over the place the past year. Doubt many people would even be confident of giving a 20k range for the end of this year.

Nuttzz

I bought €180 worth in Sept 2017 currently worth about 1030 today, I have seen this 180 go to 700 in Jan 18 to 100 in Dec 18, I do think Bitcoin will have some utility, not sure about the rest of the coins though, I have others like litecoin, ripple and Eth, nothing has "performed" as well as bitcoin though, of a 250 portfolio its all worth about 1200 at the moment, I am just holding these out of interest more than anything else