Bitcoin

Peterdalkey · 06-12-2013 10:23pm

Sorry for being less than clear. I think bitcoins and it's markets are a crock. There is no Voodoo and Occult location on boards.ie but I can't see that discussions about speculating in or on them them has a place in a business and enterprise forum. You may be proven right of course, if so well done, I never bother arguing the toss when the result is of no interest or the other side is a zealot.

I bought Baidu at 82, happy days...

Stamply · 06-12-2013 11:04pm

Peterdalkey wrote: »

Sorry for being less than clear. I think bitcoins and it's markets are a crock. There is no Voodoo and Occult location on boards.ie but I can't see that discussions about speculating in or on them them has a place in a business and enterprise forum. You may be proven right of course, if so well done, I never bother arguing the toss when the result is of no interest or the other side is a zealot.

I bought Baidu at 82, happy days...

1) If Bitcoins were successful, however unlikely, it would be massive event in human history, so the idea that you are disinterested is ridiculous. That is further bolstered by the fact that you are vehemently calling it a "crock" and are spending time (maybe your time isn't valuable to you) posting about it in a forum, which shows you are actually interested in one sense. Its seems to me your interest is one more born of an ideology which sees Bitcoins as a threat. Thats the only way your posts make sense to me.

2) Many people who buy Bitcoins are ideological and are speculating on future value that they can't rationally justify. But many people are looking at the intrinsic value of organising a real economy on this store of value, for real practical & justifiable reasons. Those who are ideologically against these practical justifications dismiss the currency without engaging them, the same way as those who are ideologically invested in Bitcoins irrationally dismiss all justified arguments against the system.

Making real arguments for or against is hard but it makes for a much more interesting conversation...

In the end we'll just have to wait and see how the cookie crumbles.

Peterdalkey · 06-12-2013 11:32pm

Please do not attempt to attribute your values to my purpose, interest or motivations. I certainly have no interest in yours. My view is that I think that bit coins are a crock. If you don't like what I am saying, just ignore my posts and move on... Quote them back at me with your own views appended, I will pull your chain every time. Get over it!
Is someone here the keeper of the reputation of bit coins?

AtomicHorror · 07-12-2013 2:56am

Peterdalkey wrote: »

Sorry for being less than clear. I think bitcoins and it's markets are a crock. There is no Voodoo and Occult location on boards.ie but I can't see that discussions about speculating in or on them them has a place in a business and enterprise forum. You may be proven right of course, if so well done, I never bother arguing the toss when the result is of no interest or the other side is a zealot.

You really have no interest in talking about this do you? You'd rather repeat your opinion as often as possible without engaging? What's the point of that?

If you took the time to look at my posts on BTC, you'd see I'm no zealot. I hope for the best, but I recognise that there's every chance BTC will fail and fail hard. What I object to is misrepresentations of reality such as the article you posted, and the selective use of such articles in argument. Cherry picking will always annoy me, regardless of the topic.

thunderdog · 07-12-2013 3:13am

For those who have money invested. Bitcoin dropping fast. Currenlty worth 617 dollars. A good time to buy

Stamply · 07-12-2013 1:30pm

thunderdog wrote: »

For those who have money invested. Bitcoin dropping fast. Currenlty worth 617 dollars. A good time to buy

I couldn't invest in BTC until I saw definitive signs that a real economy was going to dominate the current speculative investment economy. There are real benefits to this and it makes perfect sense in theory to say it will... But a real economy means Joe tradesman buying car parts online with BTC (cutting out bank & PayPal charges) rather than Russians & Chinese using it to move their money from one currency to the next.

At the moment if you ask Joe tradesman about BTC are he will give you a look like you are talking about extra-terrestrial life...

Of course, if I see those signs it is probably too late for me to make a killing, but I'm not as confident in Joe Tradesman's computer skills, who very often can't even manage a CMS and is just getting used to email.

@Peterdalkey, if that is what you mean by a "crock" then fair enough, but if you can't make a coherent point with a reasoned argument then your posts are pointless & antagonistic, so I will indeed ignore them from now on... as should everybody...

Peterdalkey · 07-12-2013 2:55pm

By a crock I mean that something that can be worth 500 one day and 1100 within a few weeks then falling back over a couple of daysto under 700 is not a currency. Even the Zimbabwian $ is more stable than it! though it too has little intrinsic value supporting it or backing it up!
If I were selling a Lamborghini for say 200k, I take bit coins on Wednesday and by Friday they are only worth say 120k. Try running a business on this kind of profitability and cash flow! I am sorry, I thought the market behavious, easy money merchants investing and irrational values attributed to it would have rendered my points obvious. My mistake is making this assumption, and for that I am quite happy to apologise.
I prefer Paddy Power or a casino when I wish to gamble in this way.

Peterdalkey · 07-12-2013 3:02pm

Here is a 1950s version of such wonderful investment and trading beads http://www.independent.ie/business/remember-irelands-infamous-stamp-act-26130087.html

vard · 07-12-2013 3:08pm

What about litecoin? That seems to be a safer investment.

Gloomtastic! · 07-12-2013 3:13pm

Peterdalkey wrote: »

Here is a 1950s version of such wonderful investment and trading beads http://www.independent.ie/business/remember-irelands-infamous-stamp-act-26130087.html

Love this little snippet at the end of that article ......

Desmond Shanahan was sentenced to 15 months. He later became a barrister, practising in London.

Peterdalkey · 07-12-2013 3:15pm

Just goes to show, a leopard never changes his spots!

Stamply · 07-12-2013 4:46pm

Peterdalkey wrote: »

By a crock I mean that something that can be worth 500 one day and 1100 within a few weeks then falling back over a couple of daysto under 700 is not a currency. Even the Zimbabwian $ is more stable than it! though it too has little intrinsic value supporting it or backing it up!
If I were selling a Lamborghini for say 200k, I take bit coins on Wednesday and by Friday they are only worth say 120k. Try running a business on this kind of profitability and cash flow! I am sorry, I thought the market behavious, easy money merchants investing and irrational values attributed to it would have rendered my points obvious. My mistake is making this assumption, and for that I am quite happy to apologise.
I prefer Paddy Power or a casino when I wish to gamble in this way.

So you are saying that current volatility will mean the currency is always unstable?

When you got on a bicycle the first time, did you wobble before you built up enough speed?
When you started your business were you on shaky ground for the first while?
Do share of a big company fluctuate wildly when they go to IPO, before the price stabilises? Traders bet on what they believe the value will be in the end and buy at a lower rate...
Did the Euro wobble in its first decade? (you have a selective memory if you think it didn't)
When man first flew planes did many of them crash?
When the earth was formed was the climate stable enough to support life?

You're assumptions do not add up to a valid argument... Which is crazy because there are so many valid arguments against BTC, but you can't seem to come up with any...

Peterdalkey · 07-12-2013 4:49pm

Ah the hurt, I will get over it! Hope you do too.

Mickk · 07-12-2013 7:02pm

Hey Peter,

One of the main benefits of bitcoin is just as a vehicle for transferring existing currencies. The banking system is cumbersome and expensive (I once had a payment of 20k held in limbo and 10 days and later returned to me while a container was sitting in port and costing me demurrage because the company I was sending to wasn't the exact company name on the chinese bank account) Also western union and moneygram are extortionate both on the fee's and the exchange rate they offer.

The way I came to have some bitcoin was that I let a mate put something on my credit card and then he asked me how he could pay me back. He only has a hong kong bank account in USD, he asked me for my swift and iban and bank address and in 3 days it should hit my account, instead of all the messing I just gave him my bitcoin wallet address and 2 mins later it was paid with neither of us paying any fees. So for me it had a real use, I'm not just jumping on a bandwagon and hoping to use it to speculate, it's a better way to transfer and move money.

Admittedly it's still awkward enough to change euro or usd in and out of bitcoin but if it spreads it will become easier and also the more people who use it's network to transfer wealth the less need there will be to change it in or out of bitcoin. In a year or two I'd say the exchange rate will have stabilised and that element wont be as much of a concern.

Peterdalkey · 08-12-2013 12:32am

Hi Mick

I get all the bits that save money on speed, fees and charges etc, the problem I have is with the 80k I just lost on the sale of my Lamborghini. Is there a bitcoin angel/genie/god who has my dough and a will give it to me. Or is That the minor flaw?

Cheers

Peter

AtomicHorror · 08-12-2013 1:09am

Peterdalkey wrote: »

Hi Mick

I get all the bits that save money on speed, fees and charges etc, the problem I have is with the 80k I just lost on the sale of my Lamborghini. Is there a bitcoin angel/genie/god who has my dough and a will give it to me. Or is That the minor flaw?

Cheers

Peter

The risk is on buyer's side with BTC. Why would you give someone a car without getting the money first? As a seller, you're better off with BTC than say PayPal where the buyer can fraudulently claim they didn't receive the item and reverse the payment.

If non-reversible transactions bother you, there are plenty of ways around that with BTC just as there are with cash.

Peterdalkey · 08-12-2013 10:15am

Scenario in Post #68 refers,
If I were selling a Lamborghini for say 200k, I take bit coins on Wednesday and by Friday they are only worth say 120k. I am down 80k. Risk resides with the buyer, I don't think so.

relaxed · 08-12-2013 11:40am

Mickk wrote: »

Hey Peter,

One of the main benefits of bitcoin is just as a vehicle for transferring existing currencies. The banking system is cumbersome and expensive (I once had a payment of 20k held in limbo and 10 days and later returned to me while a container was sitting in port and costing me demurrage because the company I was sending to wasn't the exact company name on the chinese bank account) Also western union and moneygram are extortionate both on the fee's and the exchange rate they offer.

The way I came to have some bitcoin was that I let a mate put something on my credit card and then he asked me how he could pay me back. He only has a hong kong bank account in USD, he asked me for my swift and iban and bank address and in 3 days it should hit my account, instead of all the messing I just gave him my bitcoin wallet address and 2 mins later it was paid with neither of us paying any fees. So for me it had a real use, I'm not just jumping on a bandwagon and hoping to use it to speculate, it's a better way to transfer and move money.

Admittedly it's still awkward enough to change euro or usd in and out of bitcoin but if it spreads it will become easier and also the more people who use it's network to transfer wealth the less need there will be to change it in or out of bitcoin. In a year or two I'd say the exchange rate will have stabilised and that element wont be as much of a concern.

In fairness you probably had 6 weeks since the container left China to make the payment, so its not entirely the banks fault (happened to me too BTW)

Once the company details are correct on you online banking system then things should be smoother.

So lets say I import a container from China for $50000

Bloomberg rate says €/$1.350

thats €37037.04

Bank charge a spread of 0.003%, (so I get €/US1.34595 rather than $1.35)so it costs me €37148.48

Total bank cost = ~€111 + €12.50 bank charge

What would Bitcoin do it for, and is there any risk of it moving against you by say 2 or 3 or 5% during the trasaction

If I ring the bank they give the rate and lock it in, so if the Euro goes up or down by 10% during the transfer process it won't matter.

relaxed · 08-12-2013 11:51am

AtomicHorror wrote: »

The risk is on buyer's side with BTC. Why would you give someone a car without getting the money first? As a seller, you're better off with BTC than say PayPal where the buyer can fraudulently claim they didn't receive the item and reverse the payment.

If non-reversible transactions bother you, there are plenty of ways around that with BTC just as there are with cash.

Nobody would use PayPal for a big transaction due to the fees

Peterdalkey · 08-12-2013 11:55am

Well put relaxed.
The problem is that the bitcoin has failed in its intention to be become a stateless low fee digital currency. Rather it has morphed into an extremely high risk funds handling system favoured by those who wish to move money surreptitiously or just speculate. It has failed in it's basic raison d'etra

The reality is that only a few % of bitcoin transactions are for trade, the rest are for spec investments or moving cash in an opaque fashion.

There are spin doctors and medical doctors, if I have a health issue I go to a medial doctor. If I want to transfer funds digitally, I seek the services/ advice of a financial expert not a digital marketing marketing guru. Doctor or Digital it is still Horses for courses.

AtomicHorror · 08-12-2013 1:30pm

Peterdalkey wrote: »

Well put relaxed.
The problem is that the bitcoin has failed in its intention to be become a stateless low fee digital currency. Rather it has morphed into an extremely high risk funds handling system favoured by those who wish to move money surreptitiously or just speculate. It has failed in it's basic raison d'etra

The reality is that only a few % of bitcoin transactions are for trade, the rest are for spec investments or moving cash in an opaque fashion.

If that's the case then why did the dollar value of BTC wobble but the rapidly recover after the closing of the two main "surreptitious" websites and the subsequent introduction of regulation in China? Why has BTCs biggest fall come only in the wake of a reduction in it's utility as a currency with the suspension of Baidu's sales in BTC?

There is a strong proportion of BTC owners who want to use it as currency, and even speculators would prefer to "cash out" buy buying goods and services with BTC instead of having to endure the fees and delays associated with an exchange. People are willing to invest in BTC and hold BTC on the basis of its utility, they just need to be given the services.

Peterdalkey · 08-12-2013 2:32pm

That all you described happened, only serves to confirm the dangerous and unstable nature of the product.

The problem that bitcoin was feted to solve was never for a new currency, it just tried to be too much. There is no doubt that the existing money movement systems from credit cards to PayPal and all the other fee gouging/ripoff commission/currency conversion pillaging is at complete odds with the whole dynamic of the digital marketplace. Both buyer and seller are pilfered by these zero value adding intermediaries. It is a pity that all the talent behind the bitcoin did not focus on creating a real low cost digital purse and money movement system, rather than a madcap attempt to be all things to all men.

The opportunity to win this space remains.

alb · 08-12-2013 3:38pm

Peterdalkey wrote: »

That all you described happened, only serves to confirm the dangerous and unstable nature of the product.

But it's not a product, it's an invention, a new layer on top of the internet. You seem to think Bitcoin is already at endgame, and has failed, but it's still in its infancy. The products and services that will utilise the invention are only being developed now.

Email as an invention existed long before the average person was comfortable using it, services like gmail and hotmail and products like outlook made it easy for the masses.

Bitcoin has grown in every aspect this year - number of client application downloads, number of merchants, market cap. Without a better version to replace it or outright failure it will continue to do so.

AtomicHorror · 08-12-2013 3:46pm

Peterdalkey wrote: »

That all you described happened, only serves to confirm the dangerous and unstable nature of the product.

That doesn't address my point at all.

Stamply · 08-12-2013 3:55pm

relaxed wrote: »

In fairness you probably had 6 weeks since the container left China to make the payment, so its not entirely the banks fault (happened to me too BTW)

Once the company details are correct on you online banking system then things should be smoother.

So lets say I import a container from China for $50000

Bloomberg rate says €/$1.350

thats €37037.04

Bank charge a spread of 0.003%, (so I get €/US1.34595 rather than $1.35)so it costs me €37148.48

Total bank cost = ~€111 + €12.50 bank charge

What would Bitcoin do it for, and is there any risk of it moving against you by say 2 or 3 or 5% during the trasaction

If I ring the bank they give the rate and lock it in, so if the Euro goes up or down by 10% during the transfer process it won't matter.

I see your point and its a good contribution but I wouldn't see the utility of BTC being for transfers of that scale. For small transactions, buying online, the banks & merchant services charge a big whack of the seller's margin, between 5-10% generally. Imagine not having to pay that extra couple of quid every time you use your credit card online to buy a gig ticket...

I think the value of BTC is at this level, and I can certainly foresee BTC merchant services that take the risk of minor fluctuations in the currency before the merchant can cash in by buying euro or dollar by tying in a price at the end of each month or period.

Stamply · 08-12-2013 3:56pm

AtomicHorror wrote: »

That doesn't address my point at all.

Addressing points is not his style...

Peterdalkey · 08-12-2013 3:58pm

AtomicHorror wrote: »

That doesn't address my point at all.

As I just don't get them it as they relate to being a safe and useful tool to me, I was always going to be unable to provide you with the answers you seek.

I do note, however, that you have nothing to say on the alternative that I proffered in the same post. Tells me loads!

Peterdalkey · 08-12-2013 4:00pm

Stamply wrote: »

Addressing points is not his style...

Profound indeed!

AtomicHorror · 08-12-2013 9:06pm

Peterdalkey wrote: »

As I just don't get them it as they relate to being a safe and useful tool to me, I was always going to be unable to provide you with the answers you seek.

I do note, however, that you have nothing to say on the alternative that I proffered in the same post. Tells me loads!

It tells you that if I go to the trouble of making a point and you respond with a non sequitur, I won't respond to the non sequitur until you respond to my first point. You'd just do it again, wasting my time. Stamply's response suggests that this is not new behaviour either, so I'm skeptical that answering you is worthwhile. Sorry.

Mickk · 09-12-2013 12:16am

Peterdalkey wrote: »

Hi Mick

I get all the bits that save money on speed, fees and charges etc, the problem I have is with the 80k I just lost on the sale of my Lamborghini. Is there a bitcoin angel/genie/god who has my dough and a will give it to me. Or is That the minor flaw?

Cheers

Peter

What 80K? If you sold it for x amount of bitcoin then you will still have the same amount in your wallet. If you're talking about what you can exchange it for in different currencies then you're lucky you didnt sell it in Zimbabwe and have it go from 200k to 2c in a week? Or you're lucky you didnt keep it in the Bank of Cyprus or you'd be down 47%. You're not talking about the system, you're talking about real world events which have nothing to do with the system, the bitcoin system has had a bit of bad news with regard to China's handling of the system and so the price has reflected that, the same way whatever you held the proceeds of the lambo sale in is susceptible to fluctuation. Your arguments are all to do with real world events in this very short space of time when I'm impressed with the system as a system and the potential it has when the teething problems are ironed out.

It's funny, look 2 posts down from this at a thread called "Bank Payment Advice" about how someone needs to send money now and cant because banks only process payments for a couple of hours a day 5 days a week. He needs his money sent now, he's fortunate enough that he happens to be in the same institution as the person who he needs to transfer to so it should be close of business instead of 1 or 2 days and that's just between banks in the same country... By nature, the more people who use the bitcoin network and the more transactions rather than speculators will allow the rate to stabilise and then it's a great system for holding, transferring and being in full control of your own wealth.

In fairness you probably had 6 weeks since the container left China to make the payment, so its not entirely the banks fault (happened to me too BTW)

Once the company details are correct on you online banking system then things should be smoother.

So lets say I import a container from China for $50000

Bloomberg rate says €/$1.350

thats €37037.04

Bank charge a spread of 0.003%, (so I get €/US1.34595 rather than $1.35)so it costs me €37148.48

Total bank cost = ~€111 + €12.50 bank charge

What would Bitcoin do it for, and is there any risk of it moving against you by say 2 or 3 or 5% during the trasaction

If I ring the bank they give the rate and lock it in, so if the Euro goes up or down by 10% during the transfer process it won't matter.

Yes I did have weeks to pay the balance of the container but it took right up till the last week to get the money together. In this day and age with the level of innovation and advanced technology the banking system is a dinosaur, it's like snail mail against email.

Someone moved bitcoin worth 147 million the other day and didn't pay a penny transaction fees...

Bitcoin

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